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arch2b
2004.04.30, 01:30 PM
the following was put together by our diligent moderator Draconious and is available on his website, here (http://www.draconious.com/Mini-Z/_FakeMini-Z.html) .

In the interest of keeping such debates from reaking havok in other threads, please continue your thoughts on this subject HERE.

please note that the opinions expressed here are exactly that, OPINIONS. anyone who can not see fit to disagree or offer challenges without resulting to personal attacks or such rubbish will be recommended for discipline of an appropriate degree.

WARNNING! Fake Mini-Z Copies!
The internet and Ebay are often littered with poor quality Mini-Z copies. These fake Mini-Z do not deserve the time and effort of having a whole page dedicated to them on my site, however, I do feel any one reading this deserves a fair warning, everyone needs to know about these, so pass the word before your freinds buy one.

Why are they so bad?
A lot of the new Mini-Z owners are on short cash flow, mostly from being too young to be employed, so most of them are comming in from the smaller and lower cost Bit Char-G hobby. Any one familiar with the Bit Char-G products out there, is likely also familiar with the numorous copy attempts to clone the Bit Char-G and steel sales away from Tomy, who has numourous law suits pending. Due to the low budgets and the simplicity of the Bit Char-G itself, the Bit Char-G clones are widely accepted as being a worth while purchase in the Bit Char-G hobby, however the Bit Char-G is cheap from the start, so it is not hard for the clones to be as good, and in some rare cases better than the original Bit Char-G. The Mini-Z is a lot more complex and high quality than the Bit Char-G type cars, wich makes it a lot harder, or I should say more costly and thus less profitable for the counterfiters to reproduce a Mini-Z, so they took as many short cuts as possible by leaving out key components and features that make the Real Mini-Z worth the $100 to $150 price tag they carry. The largest problem with the fakes is the electronics, there is no Servo, Speed Control, or Radio Channel Selection.

These fakes stand a chance of ruining the popularity of the Mini-Z, in some cases they already have. Say some one decides they want a Mini-Z after reading all the well earned hype online, they then see a realy good price on an internet site or ebay and buy what they think is a Mini-Z. Now they get the junk copy home in the mail, start running it around the floor and it breaks, does not have nearly the features they read or heard about, it just plain sucks. Now they may be thinking the Mini-Z sucks since, and they will start telling every one else that the Mini-Z sucks, so no one buys them and the sales drop, what few tracks there are close due to a drop in sales and popularity. Then Kyosho winds up cutting production till the existing stock is sold, eventually canceling it.. etc etc.. you get the idea... I don't need to continue to the point were mice rule the world.

The HEIPAO scam
The HEIPAO may have been the first clone on ebay, at least it was the first that I saw. The initial release of the HEIPAO clones was obvious that they intended to scam those shopping for a Mini-Z out of their money. The first box that HEIPAO packaged their crap-counterfit in, was a very poor likeness to one of the first two original Mini-Z boxes. The box does NOT say KYOSHO any where on it, instead it says hei pao were ever the Kyosho logo should have been. The Mini-Z Racer logo is not even a scan and reprint its a poorly done remake of the logo that was likely hand drawn by a monkey with parkinsons. Due to everyone warning each other not to buy a fake, there is a common mistake that all Mini-Z in a brown box is a fake, this is not true, the first two boxes the real Mini-Z came in were brown.
QUOTE]

image (http://www.draconious.com/Mini-Z/Photos/Fakes/FakeHeiPao_BMWBox.jpg)

[QUOTE]The silver box is the newer version of the heipao box, they likely are trying to get around legal issues selling them in the USA, well its still illegal. Notice they leave a body on the chassis, they possibly did this so a potential buyer can not see the fake servoless clone chassis in the box. They just filled the 2nd window, with an extra body, this has made a lot of people want it just for the extra body. To most buyers disappointment these bodies do not fit the real Mini-Z chassis as they should.

image (http://www.draconious.com/Mini-Z/Photos/Fakes/FakeHeiPao_SilverBox.jpg)

This is the HEIPAO chassis and transmitter, obviously made to look like a Mini-Z, at least were they could afford to. The entire front of the chassis is very different, due to the lack fo there being a servo there. The transmitter, well, they were obviously on a SHORT budget, when they decided to down size the real perfex. This fake perfex is about as functional compared to the real perfex, as a cheap clear plastic toy squirt gun compared to a real gun. The fake perfex (left) is shown next to a REAL kyosho Perfex KT-2 radio (right).

image (http://www.draconious.com/Mini-Z/Photos/Fakes/FakeHeiPao_Chassis.jpg)

If your Mini-Z has HeiPao any were on the box, car, or transmitter, then you definitely have a fake, I recommend you buy a REAL Mini-Z and pass the clone off to some kid to break it.

Tokaros
Tokaros makes another clone often sold as a Mini-Z, but it is an obvious copy of the Palm Runner, since its box is a direct copy of the Palm Runner box. The only visible difference on the box, is were its supose to say PALM it says POWER, and were its supose to say KYOSHO it says TOKAROS. As if cloning the Mini-Z was not enough, they went and cloned the Palm Runner too. Why not, their mini-z clones have the exact same chassis, with the same function to the palm runner, so all they have to do is rebox it. When it comes to the chassis, the takaros is no better or different than the HEIPAO, but the body is actualy a much better replication, but still lacking quality and durrability. Even if the bodies look and fit better on the real Z, its still not worth the price, especialy if all you want is the body.

image (http://www.draconious.com/Mini-Z/Photos/Fakes/FakePowerRunner1.jpg)

LXX, close but not close enough
The LXX clone is so far the closest copy there is, but it still falls short of being worth the purchase. This copy goes back to the original brown box, but is labled so that its more obvious that its a fake. The electronics were not quite copied, but this clone has the functions of the real Mini-Z in its electronics. Proportional Steering does exist, Proportional speed does exist, even the radio crystal can be changed, but the reciever just cant cut it, glitches big time and very short range. The bodies are like the tokaros bodies, very close but lack minor detail and durability. Even with the added features, like all the other clones, its still garbage and since these are selling for $30+30 shipping it would be more cost effective to buy a used Mini-Z.

You should be able to tell from the photos that the edges and corners of the plastic look like they came from some not so great quality molds. It has also been reported numorous times that the soldering job realy sucks on the electronic components, so any one that winds up buying one any way should be ready to resolder all the solder points.

image (http://www.draconious.com/Mini-Z/Photos/Fakes/FakeLXX_Box.jpg)

There are also other makes and models of Mini-Z clones, intended to be in the same market, but most of these do not appear to be trying to fool buyers. They are very different in packaging and other things, but they are still not much better then the clone, canned heat, or palm runners. The problem lies on the sellers on ebay claiming they are Mini-Z Racers.

image (http://www.draconious.com/Mini-Z/Photos/Fakes/race-tin_2c.jpg)

continued in next post...

arch2b
2004.04.30, 01:30 PM
If you see a Mini-Z on ebay that your about to place a bid on, show me the auction, and I will verify real or not... its VERY easy to tell. If you see an auction with one of the photos below, or an item similar to it selling on ebay, REPORT IT TO EBAY! This is better then just warning the people bidding on them, because ebay can pull it off and cancel their account, which ebay has already done numerous times. Please be very certain that its a fake before emailing some ome that they are buying a fake one, there have been a lot of real Mini-Z on ebay selling and people saying its fake when its not.

Do NOT buy one, unless you know that you are getting ripped off, they are not worth more then $5.00 including shipping. They are often sold with $9.00 to $30.00 price tags, but due to the rip off sellers being located overseas they also add on about $20-$30 for shipping fees. These are just bad mojo for the Mini-Z, so don't even support them by buying one to see what it is. It is very likely they have broken many laws to produce and sell these. Most of them are created from places in countries that have no care about international copyright laws, or any copyright law for that matter.

Please do not give these people selling them your money, most of the ebayers are selling nothing but counterfeit junk, so they don't deserve it. There are a few sellers admitting its not a Kyosho Mini-Z in their auctions, ok that is fine and dandy, but they still do not say that its no were near as functional, instead they say its "Just Like Mini-Z", a very big lie. Since these are obviously illegal to sell there is little chance you will get your money back once they get it, and obviously no warranty.

To make matters worse, Ebay is not the only place these are being sold at, in some countries they are sold right in the hobby shops. Because these products are likely illegal in the USA they use ebay as a way to hopefully get a US sales market, there are also a few web pages hoping to make a few sales as well. They are often sold with descriptions making you think they are the same as the Mini-Z,

How to spot a clonecan I tell if some one is selling a Clone?


These clones are made by molding all of the parts of a real Mini-Z, excluding the ones that would cost too much to copy, like the entire servo assembly. Then they try to produce the copies from the molds, the molds are often horribly flawed and lack detail, and assembled rather hastily. This often results in bad molds or parts just totally missing, like the Mercedes hood ornament. The bodies are often deformed and painted strangely, often the wrong mirrors are on the car, or they are not painted to match. The transmitters buttons and knobs do nothing they are part of the shell casing, and only there because they are there on the real thing, and they want you to think its the real thing. There is no power switch, no steering dial, no servo reverse switches. These things don't even have electronics up to par with the official Kyosho Palm Runner, that every one regards as cheap as it is. The steering is not proportional (a true steering servo), I bet their palm runner clone is no different then their Mini-Z clone, it cant get much worse.

I pulled most of the photos above, from actual Ebay auctions trying to pass them off as real Mini-Z. They are only available on unreliable wide band radios that allow no channel selection, and are only availabe in 27 and 49mhz, wich bleed into all surrounding channels since they are produced with out FCC aproval. There is no servo, they rely on magnetic on and off steering similar to the Bit Char-G or Palm Runner, this makes it realy hard to drive regardless of how fast or slow it is. The clones have no speed control, the throttle is simply on or off similar to the Bit Char-G or Palm Runner. There is one acception, the LXX clone has the radio crystal, servo, and variable speed control, but the reciever electronics are so poor you get very limited range. The wires plastic and solder joints on all of the clones are very fragile, they require glueing and resoldering constantly.

The Palm Runner
Kyosho also has their own "clone" of their Mini-Z line, they made a cheaper version of an radio control chassis, that fits the Mini-Z bodies. But thats about all it is, is just enough to get the body to move round on the floor, it has the same features as the fake clones, other then the fact it holds 2 AA instead of 4 AAA batteries. The palm runner is rumored to be canceled, or at least they are not sold in very many shops. If you have to buy a budget car for a kid, this is the one to get, cuz you can get a real Mini-Z body with it, and swap your used body for it. They often sell for under $20 to $50, or at least they did when they were easier to find, since some people have been paying this much for bodies its actualy a good deal if you get a rare body.

thank you to draconious for putting together this information and it's presented better on his website, there are also more images...

let the debate begin...

Draconious
2004.04.30, 01:58 PM
Also note that my pages on my site are in perpetual change... I prefer the dynamic document over the type it out once and be done with it aproach... things change, so should information...

I am always updating them.. even if I dont upload it, or upload an incomplete version wich I usualy do... it currently needs to be udpated to add the I-Waver.. wich wont be much of a change from the LXX description unless I personaly see a difference in the two... the I-Waver is the LXX upgraded suposedly...

Also some of that above was "to be edited later" content... that he copied along with the rest... and I think one photo is out of place... as he said its presented better on my site.... even though my site is ugly as can be...

I am currently redoing the mini-Z knowledge base on my site, adding way more text than I want too... but the "Clone" Page will be edited along with it once I get the bulk of the KB done... this has been in-progress since before this forum existed, so dont expect it to be done anytime soon! :).

Capt. Oversteer
2004.04.30, 02:05 PM
No debate here!!! I feel both these sights have mountains of very very helpful information. I know both sights have helped me and given me a lot of ideas of things to do to make my mini-z's better. I know it doesn't get said enough, but, keep up the great work!!!!! and thanks again for all the help from these sights!!!!!

Bird
2004.04.30, 02:21 PM
I fully researched all of my options before buying. I even have Draconious' site saved to my favorites. It is because of him that I avoided the heipo scam. I still may pick one up for the body and wheels, but I have 2 canned heat cars, and know that all the heipo chassis is is the same set-up disguised as a mini-z. I rolled the dice on the iWaver, and for the money, I say it is a good car for enthusiasts into this for fun. I know it is not as good as the Kyosho that it emulates, but it is good enough for the purpose I intended it for, fun.

When I eventually get the mro2 and monster z that I will inevitably be getting later this year(probably after the Epoch I sooooo covet), maybe my opinion of the iWaver will change, but I doubt it... all of the many varied rc's I posess are fun to me in their own special ways. From the 2 1/10 scale cars, the crappy canned heats, the Shack 'Vette, x-mod, Superslick, and my many, many beloved bits, zipzaps and clones, I find something to be enjoyed in all of them, regardless of the shortcomings some of them have.

I know you don't have to have an iWaver to know it's not a Kyosho, or even not as good, but you have no right to write it off as junk and not worthwhile without seeing for yourself how it really is.

Still not here to fight or cause trouble, just hate seeing a decent car getting trash talked on it for merely existing.

Draconious
2004.04.30, 02:30 PM
Again, the hei poa is junk, in its purrist form.. the I-Waver is a close copy, the LXX I will still regard as junk though due to its poor reciever, if this was not fixed int he I-waver then yes, maybe I will say the I-waver too is junk...... sigh... please read and do not distort what I say...


Also.... While its still early in this thread, I would like to point out that the mini-Z did have a poor version... the old brown box that was made in china was not the best quality control. The solder quality was not that great... but again I would still buy this mini-z over the I-Waver....

There were 2 brown boxes one japan (high quality! like MR02 OL etc) and the china box, that was not so great.. had a few flaws errors, glitched much more, and even shorted solder points in a few Z's. The current/newer made in china MR01 white or now black boxes are perfectly fine though, about as good as the original Made In Japan boxes, with very very minor differences (the motor is different)

(see bottom of Mini-Z chassis for the Made In C/J)
All MR01 are currently made in China now... by a Kyosho Liscensed factory.
All MR02/OL/F1 as far as I know have been made in Japan, but that could always change...

So if any one compares the old brown box china Mini-Z to an I-Waver they will have IDENTICAL results.. with the exception that the I-Waver has very noticable steps in the steering... and possible reciever issues?

Bird
2004.04.30, 03:44 PM
I did not distort what you say. Someone started a thread about the iWaver and you jumped in and called it junk. Charlie Brown started another thread and you jumped in and said it was junk. Why can't you let people have thier opinion without you jumping in and saying it is junk? You do not own one so you should have no opinion.

My iWaver has great steering, and no range issues. It works perfectly, just as I expected it to. I would like to share that with other people interested in the iWaver without someone who doesn't even have one calling it junk. That is all my issue is.

I am still not trying to start trouble... I just wish people could talk about these cars without you jumping in and calling them junk.

Draconious
2004.04.30, 04:21 PM
Could you please point me to these posts please? thank you...

shimey
2004.04.30, 04:45 PM
WHoo boy, here goes.

Drac- on some things, I have to agree with Bird. I have noticed that in every "clone" thread you do "jump in." And yes that includes the Iwaver topic--which personally, I have divided opinions on.

However "jumping in" is not necessarily a bad thing. Differing opinions, lively (heated) discussion, passionate conviction are all -- I think -- things that lead to the best ideas, in any area...politics, relationships, employment.....silly little toy-car hobbies....(lol)

I think your experience with the hobby, evidenced by your website and your (thousands of) posts here lends large credibility to your opinion.

Yet I can't say that I'm entirely convinced by your argument. You say the main reason clones are bad is that they "stand a chance of ruining the popularity of the Mini-Z" and " in some cases they already have."

I don't see this happening. Maybe you can elaborate, but generally speaking I think people pay for what they want. They're willing to pay more if they want more. No, the general public doesn't research these things to the extent that we, the geeks of Mini-zracer do, but I think they check things out. And I think that most people know that if it looks to good to be true, it is.

Of course those are generalities, and there are always exceptions to generalities. There are going to be kids that get ripped off. That sucks. Since it's happened to several nephews of mine, it really sucks. I'll be the first to volunteer to relieve scammers of their reproductive ability----but I don't see this as statistic enough to endanger Mini-z's popularity. Speaking of which, if you don't want kids to get ripped-off or have a bad experience then not buy a real Mini-Z etc...why do you "...recommend you buy a REAL Mini-Z and pass the clone off to some kid to break it." Do you mean kid as in baby? Not quite clear on that...

Anyway- Not taking sides. Just adding to the discussion.

I dislike most clones. I HATE scammers who don't readily identify their clones as such. Selling something for what it is is one thing. Dishonesty---deception? is quite another.

And....done....for now... :)

Yugo DSC Maxxer
2004.04.30, 05:01 PM
Ok, If Other people can have their pinon, why can't drac? :confused:

Draconious
2004.04.30, 05:08 PM
sigh, when the clones first came out there were ppl posting the Mini-Z sucked, and were recomending ppl buy OTHER products, RS4 or bit charges....... at least 5 or 6... infact it might have even been prior to this forums existance... then later it was learned that these ppl only had the cheap clones... This is what brought upon the "ruin the hobby" area of that old "article"... And again my words twisted, I did not say that was the main reason... and I ended that area of the article with humor... so dont take that paragraph too seriously...

umm a forum is for jumping in... if thats all that he is complaining about is me posting period.. then umm.. what the... its not like his posts are not jumping in ;)
Hes claiming every post was me calling the I waver Junk... Ive not once directly said it was junk... closest thign would be me calling it a clone, and in another post calling a similar clone junk.... but this was not posted in every post as he says I did...

By the pass it on to a kid, this refers to those who already bought one... and were disapointed, im always asked "can I do anythign to make it as good as a real Z?" in emails... basicly this is my way of saying
"NO, give it to a 6 year old to break it..."

Bird
2004.04.30, 05:54 PM
I am not going to waste my time looking for posts. All I'm saying is that you imply in your posts that if it isn't a Kyosho, it's junk. You know what you're implying when you say things, and you know how people are going to read what you are saying. My only beef is that people cannot discuss these cars without you putting them down. It is evident you dislike them, and well documented, yet people cannot discuss them without you derailing it onto some patent or copyright issue... which is fine, but as I said before, you can't make them go away, and you can't make people stop buying them. I don't want to argue with you. I'ts pointless... You have your stance, and your reasons, and that's fine. I just don't understand why you feel the need to kick a dead horse every time someone starts to talk about these cars. And I know that my stance and my reasons have no merit in your eyes and you don't want to hear it, but someone has to defend these cars, and I have nothing to lose... so, why not? I truly do like my iWaver mini-z clone... you may not like that fact, but you also cannot change it.

pHREDD
2004.04.30, 06:21 PM
I need and want opnions from both sides of the fence. If we all had the same opnion this forum would be useless. I look foward to reading everyones remarks then I form my own opnion.

Be it good or be it bad I want to read it because both sides have "value".


Thanks for the Forums....

shimey
2004.04.30, 07:10 PM
Ok, If Other people can have their pinon, why can't drac? :confused:
Yugo- I hope this wasn't to me? Because my words were:However "jumping in" is not necessarily a bad thing. Differing opinions, lively (heated) discussion, passionate conviction are all -- I think -- things that lead to the best ideas, in any area...politics, relationships, employment.....silly little toy-car hobbies....(lol)

And Drac, I really hope you don't think I'm bagging on you. You were very helpful in this thread of mine. (http://www.mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12887&highlight=evil) I had read this article on your site long before it was posted here and have since wondered (not derisively or negatively ) what the "core" of your "argument" was/is. Yeah, most clones suck, and I hope no-one buys them, but you seem extra kung-fu about it. I'm just asking particulars on why you feel the way you do. Maybe I shouldn't have used the term "main reason," but I wasn't trying to twist your words. It's just listed under the "Why are they so bad" section of your article. To my reading that's a big reason why you would be so adamant about clones and maybe? why others should be too. I was just asking...wondering.

Thanks for clarifying the "pass it on to a kid..." I thought that's probably what you meant, but I wanted to know (and to let others who may have mistaken your meaning to know as well)

And a big DITTO to Phredd
I need and want opnions from both sides of the fence. If we all had the same opnion this forum would be useless. I look foward to reading everyones remarks then I form my own opnion. Be it good or be it bad I want to read it because both sides have "value"

I said I wasn't taking sides and I meant it. I value intelligently offered, persuasively worded differing opinion highly, I just like a little clarification now and then. Sometimes things aren't what they seem......

Yugo DSC Maxxer
2004.04.30, 07:26 PM
Nope, you're cool....For now... ;) (Kidding)
I was directing that to Bird.

Draconious
2004.04.30, 08:00 PM
well I spent the time searching for I-Waver, not once was any of my posts in these threads, out of line...

bird, the only time I posted about the clones, is when the information was requested... or to reply to some one elses comments about them... I guess some of you are reading a little too much into what I type, with out actualy reading it...

I posted what they are, and I intend others to make their own opinion based on the facts I present. I am not trying to make them GO-Away...

When I want something to just go away I wont be posting about it on a forum, there are more direct methods that would be more effective... possibly involving some C4, and a realy long stick...

ALL of my hatred toward clones lies strictly on the HEIPOA, and those that were selling it on ebay... "worth 99$!" "transmitter alone sells for 50$!" this was all crap...

Bird
2004.04.30, 08:30 PM
I apologize if I misinterpreted anything you were saying. I had been following that thread for a long time, since before I even recieved my iWaver, and it just seemed to me that you were just stirring the pot whenever you posted, I guess I was reading too much into your words... And then when Charlie Brown started his thread, it seemed like a whole bunch of the same again, and again I sensed that no one here wants to hear about these cars by the reaction he got...

I'm sorry if my opinions offended you. I won't be bothering you guys anymore.

sg219
2004.05.01, 12:22 AM
umm a forum is for jumping in... if thats all that he is complaining about is me posting period.. then umm.. what the... its not like his posts are not jumping in
Hes claiming every post was me calling the I waver Junk... Ive not once directly said it was junk... closest thign would be me calling it a clone, and in another post calling a similar clone junk.... but this was not posted in every post as he says I did...

If you say forums are for jumping in, then, Why lock a thread that is totally about what was being talked about an iWaver? If it was you that posted like
I did, it would have been overlooked. But since I'm new and your the Mini-Z fanatic, I get cut off and edited!!! If my post was soooo bad, cut it there, not after it continues on and gets even worse. Why edit a mans post? I didn't swear, or put up porn!! I'm sure if I look around, I can find much worse commentary!! I got my post edited because it wasn't to the liking of someone. The worst thing I said was narrow-minded and the word pinhead. Those are used by school children, I was tryin' to keep it a "G" rated post and it was. If you can't handle those words, I'm sorry and apoligize right now to all the school kids I let down by not using them in the right context!!! Then I couldn't reply to my own statement!!

@ DRAC>>>Your using what is called an implied judgement, you may not directly call it junk, but it is what you imply. You set it up like its an offical statement, but have no proof of such claims!! Copyright and other legal mumbo jumbo that you use is totally irrelavent to the quaility of the vehicle, which is what everyone was talking about until you stepped in with this legal crap.

If such theories like all clones suck because they come after the original, which is what you imply about the iWaver, then this forum sucks (I don't think it does!! :) ) because there was one before it and so on and so on!!! The design and idea of the Mini-Z is almost as old as RC, wouldn't that make it a clone of other RC's? And don't forget that clones suck!! :rolleyes:

I don't know or for that matter care at all, but is this site and the name Mini-Z cleared for use? If your so caught up in legal stuff, look into that. :D

I love a good debate!!!

Draconious
2004.05.01, 12:45 AM
First Im not the one that edited your post ;)
My posts were not attacking any one, yours were in a way... they deserved to be edited... there was a request for the topic to be put back on track, no one listened the thread was closed...

And, if I state that it has a weaker reciever, and the car is not a real Mini-Z, and what ever other things, most of wich are agreed upon by those who have one... and YOU come to the conclusion that I am implying that it is junk, then YOU are the one that is actualy saying that its junk, by adding up the facts set before you... you came to your own conclusion.


Off Topic, and hopefuly does not apply here:
I know that on other forums, not nessessarily mini-z related, some members intentionaly start "debates" in practice for "debate club/classes", if any of this is an iota related to this, we realy do not need it here... true honest feelings only here please. I only say this cuz I have seen others post in these other forums "our teacher recomended to start a debate in online chat rooms" etc, type of posts... frankly im not in the mood, I only reply when some one else posts something that makes me do so... if the issues I brought up were not already a factor on the forum, I would have never even bothered to post about the stupid clone issue...

arch2b
2004.05.01, 07:29 AM
First Im not the one that edited your post ;)
My posts were not attacking any one, yours were in a way... they deserved to be edited... there was a request for the topic to be put back on track, no one listened the thread was closed...

I edited your post because after REPEATED requests that the thread discontinue arguing this subject it a thread asking about iwaver reviewst etc, not sermons/stances from anyone on legitimcay. my prupose was to keep this as friendly a place as possible. YOU (sg219) had directly insulted a fellow member (friend and moderator) which is against forum rules to begin with.

i created this thread for the sole purpose of getting into this issue here, in a civilized manner. EVERYONE that fails to heed the forum rules will find themselves receiving an appropriate measuer of discipline, as i promised earlier.

the LAST thing i want to do is have to go around cracking down on people, believe me. it's been very easy to be a moderator as a large percentage of the members conducted themselves in a mature manner and occasionaly bent the rules. PLEASE don't make me out to be the bad guy here becasue people can't argue a point without getting personal

arch2b
2004.05.02, 08:53 AM
i greatly appreciate drac presenting the material on his site to help prevent unsuspeting newbies from getting ripped of, i even go along with clones are illegal, iligitiemate product.
where my opinion differ's however is i don't mind buying a $40 clone for parts or bash around. neither kyosho or the clone manuf. care about the u.s. market a great deal (my opinion) so i don't believe either care too much about sales figues here. i mean, come on, the number of potential consumers in their home market is probably significantly higher than actual customers here (u.s.) if it were different, you would see gp acvertising mini-z's as aggressively as rs advertises xmods.

so, while i agree they are bad in general and absolutely not up to par with quality...for $40 you can't beat a parts car with full electronics and tx for other rc projects. not to mention i would buy 2-4 of the iwaver's just to let family run on my track as i don't want them coming near my $2-400 mini-z's :eek: it only takes one cowboy with a heavy throttle finger to smash a car up and just walk away saying, sorry or opps to ruin your day :( trust me i know. i would get xmods for this purpose but they run soooo poorly on my track no one is even interested in touching it.

Ken Mifune
2004.05.02, 11:17 AM
...and the moral of the story...
For the right price, we should throw ethics and quality out the window and pass the buck on legalities or global responsibilities due to selfishness. ;)

arch2b
2004.05.02, 12:24 PM
...and the moral of the story...
For the right price, we should throw ethics and quality out the window and pass the buck on legalities or global responsibilities due to selfishness. ;)
isn't that the capitalist american way ;)

HammerZ
2004.05.02, 11:49 PM
ALL of my hatred toward clones lies strictly on the HEIPOA, and those that were selling it on ebay... "worth 99$!" "transmitter alone sells for 50$!" this was all crap...
I always wondered about those, at what % of sellers on the bay have actualy touched the item they posted? I think that most just get the pictures and a memo to write a "catchy" ad for the item in question. Some "fly by nite" company that stocks nickel and dime store items, go through sellers like cannon fodder, reminds me of telemarketers that moves from place to place. So is the backlash more at the producers or the marketers?

The Iwavers may be useful. But as far as illegal, I need to see something more solid before I can cast stones.

Akira_kj
2004.05.03, 03:29 AM
Ive had some Clones...with mixed results

Bit CHar-G clones X2

Transformer clones X countless numbers

Yes clones are cheap, but they serve a good purpose...Little Brothers. lol

Nagging little brother want a turn on the Ol' Mini-z retail 150$+? Get him a Hia Po for retail 20$ and get him outta your hair...if hes old enuf to tell the diffrence then hes old enuf for a weekend job to buy his own mini-z lol.

Bitchar-g clones are cheap and in a item that costs so little to begin with its easy to get a "Close" match... but YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR! You buy a used 1973 toyoda and expect 2004 corvette preformance then you need some help.

Most Clones are illegal. Clones are cheaply made, They exsist because there is a market for cheap knockoffs. Dont feel bad if you bought one, just treat yourself alittle better, Walmart has a nice line of Super cheap RC cars in the toy section...20$ Hia Po would fit in nicely with the toys. thats why Mini-Zs are in Hobby and Specialty RC shops and not on the shelf at Toys R Us.
Is not a toy... give your little brother the toys get yourself the Full on Racer RC.

easy
2004.05.06, 11:55 PM
...I intend others to make their own opinion based on the facts I present. I am not trying to make them GO-Away...

So this is where this discussion ended up! I search Iwaver on Google and this pops up! :p

The problem with your facts Drac is you haven't provided any facts at all. You have yet to prove any patents, copy rights or licensing agreements have been violated. Show us proof we can verify.

... ALL of my hatred toward clones lies strictly on the HEIPOA, and those that were selling it on ebay... "worth 99$!" "transmitter alone sells for 50$!" this was all crap...

You use the word clone to lump all cars that are not Kyosho under the Heipoa banner even though the Iwaver is a much better product that has not been misrepresented in the same way.

Drac, you do jump in and slam the clones every chance you get, you bring up the same issues every time and you have tied the Iwaver to the fraudulent activities of those selling the Heipoa at some point in your comments virtually every time. I don't think the Iwaver is any more associated with Heipoa than Kyosho is so why must you continue to link them?

I really have to laugh at some of your logic Drac. You claim to know the Mini Z MR-01 is made in China but you don't seem to be able to accept that the Iwaver could be made by the same subcontractor Kyosho uses with their blessing.

As I said before for all you know Kyosho may have simply branded the Chinese manufacturer's car as their own with a clause that gave them an exclusive on the car untill they developed their market position.

I'm not saying that is what happened but it is one of many possibilities you don't seem to ever consider. I've worked in the supply chain in a few different industries that extensively use Asian suppliers. I don't think you have any idea how many so called North American brand names and products are actually developed in China and brought to North America as an original domestic product by brand name companies located here.

I communicated daily with a trading agent in Taiwan for three years who continuously developed brand name product lines for the European and North American markets and then sold the name and line to companies located in those markets. I was very knowledgeable within the industry and had personal exposure to many of his products at the wholesale level earlier in my career in that industry. I had no idea at the time so many of the big US brand names in the magazines were actually developed completely in Taiwan and China.

Drac, before you spew any more unsubstanciated claims about the Iwaver why don't you actually get one? At least then your diatribes would be based on personal experience with the product you constantly berate. I think you're afraid that the Iwaver may be a better car than you want it to be.

If you ask me it is the Mini Z's bloated profit margin the Iwaver threatens and not the Mini Z itself. I think the prices on the Mini z could come down a long way and still provide Kyosho with a good profit.

Draconious
2004.05.07, 12:28 AM
Why do you need proof that they probly dont have a ford liscense and what not? can you prove that they do have it? The company does not sell to the US, so they dont need it to sell in japan and hong kong... so there is a 99% chance they do not have such liscense, and the proof you want for them not having the ferari liscense is the lack of a hot wheels logo its REQUIRED... (this as been said above, so scroll up to read this part more).

So im wrong because I have no proof, yet you go on speculating things as well with no proof ;) whatever... I also never said it was NOT a possibility... I know kyosho will buy products from other factories, for example RCP tracks...

Once you send me 50$ ill go ahead and buy one... until then I will continue buying my mini-z's for only a few bucks more ;), just bought a new MR01 (pt cruiser) readyset for under $70 (including shipping), dont bother asking were it was the only one.

And as I said before I do not need to have one in my hand to know what I have said about them... name one thing that I said that I would have to have one in my hand to know it... this is not the bush election, please dont try to alter what was said by others, intentionaly or not...

frankly talking about the copies and clones and knockoffs is getting old... especialy since most of it is not realy relavent. I could maybe add, that maybe an alien race realy invented the mini-z? and then a china factory found one, and then kyosho stole it from this factory? Does it realy matter? I dont care if the pope made the thing, they are not 100% mini-z... read that as not the same, as in im not saying its junk, as in its got different molds, electronics, and different transmitter and different reciever, if you wish to think of this as me calling it junk then thats your opinion.

If the I Waver was about 25$ or less AFTER SHIPPING IT TO USA, then it would be very much worth the cost... the hei poa? is not worth more than $2.50 and thats being generous...

easy
2004.05.07, 01:09 AM
Like shooting fish in a barrel Draconious. :p

machine
2004.05.07, 11:28 AM
I picked up 2 Iwavers, i needed to see the difference for myself.
As i only need one, i HAD one Iwaver for sale in the misc forum. (shipping was cheaper for 2 cars) but nevermind about that.

I have the Subaru Iwaver and the car handles like an MR01, it comes with 2 motor mount options, changeable wheelbase, and the cool clear remote. Apart from teh remote,it looks pretty much ,like a MR01. The body does have the Dodge logo on it, and it's detailed exactly like an Autoscale body.

The Iwaver highspeed motor is exactly like the Xspeed, The lights function great and are quite brite. All my MR01 kyosho parts fit and work on the Iwaver.

And the kicker, it's half the cost of a MR01. Even with shipping it was cheaper. Can't beat that. Kinda makes me wonder if Kyosho is setting a higher price because people are willing to pay it.

Since it seems the clone nay sayers are out in full force, why dont we all take the time to read a review of the Iwaver from some one who has an open mind, and $50 to spare. Gadzooks they even sell them on thier store right next to the kyosho product. Weird :rolleyes:

http://www.microrccenter.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24390

Draconious
2004.05.07, 05:06 PM
I see were the confusion is comming from, ppl are exagerating, and "putting words in my mouth" that I did not say on other forums... bird especialy.

Easy, you want to enlighten me as to what you are refering by that?

Ken Mifune
2004.05.07, 05:36 PM
wow Drac,
You're getting slammed for being such a big meanie. ;)




(okay, I know. That's not helping.)

easy
2004.05.07, 08:33 PM
Sure Draconious I can explain it to you, all anyone has to do is come on this forum and say something positive about a clone and you'll deliver one of your diatribes about copyright infringements virtually right on cue. They can't miss, just like shooting fish in a barrel.

That silly nonsense you wrote when you replied to me last night has blown your credibility in my opinion. I think its funny that you always come back saying people are misreading your messages and putting words in your mouth. Why do you suppose everyone misquotes you? Why don't you try reviewing your mis-quoted posts objectively and try to determine why people perceive them the way they do?

As far as the burden of proof goes Draconious you are accusing all of the clones of being illegal copies as did Arch in one of his posts above. As I said before in the original thread the US legal system is based on the presumption of innocence until proven guilty in a court of law. When you say all cones are illegal copies you have the burden of prooving your statements are true under the US legal system and if you can't that is slander.

Slander is just as illegal and wrong as what you and now arch are saying about the clones.

I'm simply presenting different possible business relationships and strategies for people to consider along with your your malicious comments. I don't have to prove my comments are true since I am not accusing the clones of any wrong doing. I am saying they are innocent until proven guilty by a method recognized by the US legal system.

Draconious you are convicting the clones without satisfying the burden of proof required by the US legal system and I think evryone should be aware of that untill you do.

On several occasions I've said none of us can prove what is actually going on inside the industry and therfore all of this is just speculation. I'm offering alternatives for everyone to consider based on knowledge and experience from inside other simular industries. I'd like them to be aware of how some business relationships between Chinese suppliers and brand name companies work if they are not already.

Draconious, I'm not seeing people complain about the things I've said but some members are certainly complaining about your draconian demeanor. If you think talking about this is getting old why do you keep bringing it up?

Take your post about the Iwaver GT 40 body for example. You just had to add "but you won't like who's making it" or something very close to that. What you should have said was, But I don't like who's making it". That would have been closer to the truth.

As SG219 commented I don't understand why Arch closed the other thread and then allowed the debate to continue here either. The only person I think is behaving aggressiely is you Draconiuos. What Arch should have done is issue you a warning and locked you out of the thread.

Draconious
2004.05.07, 09:09 PM
holey crap dude, your so exagerating everything way out of proportion... why are you devoting so much energy into exagerating what I have said? If a chicken farted, you would come back and claim it was a tornado...

I asked what the fish barrel comment was for.. nothing more... and you go into a rant... any more on this and I will delete it all, talk about the clone itself all you want, not some ones view on it.

You started the get me proof debate, my point on leagalities of the I waver is that they simply have leagal issues to over come... why make more out of it? Does it realy flippin matter?


Were the heck did I "slander" anything? dont say I did, show me... dont say your too busy to look for it, just show me... you keep frigen forgetting that most of the clone posts on this forum were way way before the I waver existed, some before the LXX... your taking way to much of this stuff out of context, you have not read it all, and you were not around when the clones first started being talked about...

And I dont keep bringing it up.. YOU DO!!! And you keep adding these nonsense issues to it as well...
There are so many drac said this or that about the clones, on other forums, that I dont even post on, that is putting you are in a whole nother world with this...
I have said a milliion times I would not have said a word about the clone, or even reply to these posts of yours, if some one else did not bring up the clone, bring me up in the post, or ad some obscure insult to a member... my posts are mearly foot notes to remind those who read the post that its NOT 100% the same... I have every right to post in here as you do... you act like im supose to just ignore the posts, I am a moderator on here, im supose to post a lot, keep things straight and tidy... If some one asks "is a clone identical to a mini-z, and I say NO its not" I am not slandering the clone... lol...

Bird
2004.05.07, 11:04 PM
I see were the confusion is comming from, ppl are exagerating, and "putting words in my mouth" that I did not say on other forums... bird especialy.

I am not putting anything in your mouth.... I am merely relating the facts to people. YOU do not want to hear that these are good cars. YOU continually slam them when people talk about them. YOU want people to think that ALL clones are "inferior". YOU try to double talk YOUR way out of this fact by bringing moot copyright and patent arguments into the mix. I have nothing "personal" against YOU... just YOUR tactics.

The truth of the matter is, I could care less what anyone says about any cars, it is just the air of arrogance and contempt that radiates from YOUR words that I feel is unfairly portraying these cars.

If the I Waver was about 25$ or less AFTER SHIPPING IT TO USA, then it would be very much worth the cost...

What exactly am I misreading in this? Nothing. Those words were deliberately crafted to make people think it is not worth their money.

its not exactly like an MR01, its still a clone, and the "proportionalness" of it, is not as good as the Mini-Z... and in the case of the other LXX, they tend to stop working after a few weeks... and they GLITCH like they have brain hemriges...

And this? Ditto.

the iwaver will eventualy have worse range issues than the mini-z once its a few runs-old... its not even worth concidering buying one...

Yeah... I totally misunderstood what you were saying there...

Sounds like a clue that, the cheaper made I waver radio is a wider band...

If this is the case, and if any one was using it to control their mini-z in an official race that I was in, I would walk over and STOMP on it, before I let them use it... cuz it might interfere with the other cars on the track... this of course after I asked them nicely to put it away ;) .

Yeah... ;) . What am I misunderstanding about this one?

There are also other makes and models of Mini-Z clones, intended to be in the same market, but most of these do not appear to be trying to fool buyers. They are very different in packaging and other things, but they are still not much better then the clone, canned heat, or palm runners.

That one is from your site... What am I not getting here? Oh, you didn't mean that, you meant that people should form their own opinions of these cars, right?

So as you can see, I am not going around other forums with some uninformed exaggerations... here are the quotes you asked for, for all to see where I am coming from... simply put, YOU do not want these cars portrayed in a positive light, and when confronted due to your tactics, will backpedal and portray the person defending the cars from YOUR slander as making "personal attacks" on you. I am not attacking YOU... just your arrogant tactics.

P.S. arch2b... I appreciate the fact that you knew the difference between "knowledge" and wisdom when you named this thread... thank you.

easy
2004.05.08, 12:09 AM
...my point on leagalities of the I waver is that they simply have leagal issues to over come...

I didn't even have to go past your last post to find that.

In the New Clone Iwaver thread lat arch locked after giving you the final word Stuz originally mentioned licensing in passing briefly in post #3.

From your second post #31 in the locked thread.

"unless the lxx/takaros/iwaver maker can show proof that they bought rights to sell / produce a copy of a kyosho product it is an illeagal product, and it also hurts the mini-z sales... on the bottom line... every clone sold hurts the mini-z... the prices go up (to make up for sales loss), when they should be goign down, and ppl will think its crap..."

That is slander.

Draconious you raised the legal issue rigth there. Up untill that point the discussion was about comparing the Iwaver to the Mini Z and parts compatibility issues.

In post #32 post I welcomed your input to the thread and agreed the fraud you spoke of was wrong. I also offered some ideas on how the Iwaver could be a legitmate product as a part of the discussion.

The discussion moved to track racing and introducing a new product to lhs owners and discussions about the car.

Draconious you chimmed in with post # 71 to knock the range of the LXX said the Iwaver would eventually have the same problem said you didn't own one. How can you test the Iwaver's range if you don't have it in your own hands?

Then the discussion went to more racing, the Iwaver invitational, arch selling some TTT stuff and GPM turbo compatibility and you chimeed in with this gem, post # 110.

"Sounds like a clue that, the cheaper made I waver radio is a wider band...

If this is the case, and if any one was using it to control their mini-z in an official race that I was in, I would walk over and STOMP on it, before I let them use it... cuz it might interfere with the other cars on the track... this of course after I asked them nicely to put it away ."

More about the controllers including your post #116, in your post #119 you started with the radio and a link to your web site and you also included this at the bottom.

From your post #119 same thread...

I just wish some one would pop up proof that the I Waver is OK with kyosho, be means of them selling the rights to clone it, or that kyosho just dont give a rats ass... if this was proven, and I sampled one and liked it, I would sell the bastards my self... but for now its a negative thing, that they exist.

I hate clones, because past clones were INTENTIONALY decieving buyers into thinking it was a realy Mini-Z (see my fake mini-z page) Hai Pao for example...

In my post #123 I agree with you and ask why competitors in this class are so unwelcome.

Your post #124

"I say the mroe 1/24 1/28 cars the better!, just as long as its not a cheap copy of some one elses design... a sort of plagerism... theres a thing called copy right, patent etc... intelectual property rights etc...

My post 126 I agree with you and discuss the cost of production grade molds and ways companies might defer molding costs.

In your post #127 as arch pointed out you went way off track in a diatribe about Chinese products. Didn't you say in some other thread we were both in that your job went to China? I'm thinking your whole attitude towards China in general has more to do with that than RC cars.

In my post #128 I agree with you again and talk about mold maintenance issues.

From your post #146

"I do not need to buy an I waver to know that its not a leagal production!? or that it is not the same thing as the real Mini-Z...

As I have said many times, I will continue to say they are illeagal and imoral (because they are!)"

That is slander from one of your posts again Draconious.

sg219 chimmed in, arch edited his post reprimanded every one and threatened to lock the thread and then did... after giving you a fellow moderator the last word.

Well, there are a whole bunch of quotes for you to review Draconious and I see Bird has posted a simular message too. As you said Draconious you are a moderator here and as such you should conduct yourself with a lot more decorum.

Draconious you should be keeping things neat and tidy not making such a huge mess out of a thread that a fellow moderator has to step in and bail you out. Like it or not Arch, that's what you did but you didn't solve the problem moving this here without having an off line discussion with Draconious about his behaviour first.

You can delete all these posts or edit them down but several members do not appreciate you attitude Draconious and your fellow moderators need to recognize that and deal with it instead of squelching the other members.

sg219
2004.05.08, 12:35 AM
I bet Drac thought I gave up after he accused me of being a debater for some class project!!! Just because someone says they like to debate, you immediately jump the gun and say that I'm doin' it for fun and classwork, not because I'm angry or trying to say something positve about a car thats not a Mini-Z.

Off Topic, and hopefuly does not apply here:
I know that on other forums, not nessessarily mini-z related, some members intentionaly start "debates" in practice for "debate club/classes", if any of this is an iota related to this, we realy do not need it here... true honest feelings only here please. I only say this cuz I have seen others post in these other forums "our teacher recomended to start a debate in online chat rooms" etc, type of posts... frankly im not in the mood, I only reply when some one else posts something that makes me do so... if the issues I brought up were not already a factor on the forum, I would have never even bothered to post about the stupid clone issue...


I'm sorry I missed out on all the fun, but Bird, Easy, your right on.

I tried to have a ligit back and forth postin' fest with him, but it always ended up with Drac throwin' the law down because he disagreed!!

I see that Easy and Bird did some back tracking to prior posts and got the evidence to show whats really being denied by Drac.

I would of fired off a couple more rounds of posts, but my legal staff ;) , said to drop it and let the negitive iWaver comments rot in their own shame and sorrow.

I originally came here to read about the Mini-Z and find out if its worth buying, but after the way I see Mini-Z owners treat people that don't own one, I really want to stay away. It is ashame that I came here for that reason and came across the iWaver thread, that is shut down now and started reading it, that such a closed-minded individual could be a moderator on a forum of discussions.

Does not the title "moderator" come from the term "moderate"?

Webster's----moderate adj. "1. Not extreme or excessive. 2. TEMPERATE. "

Webster's---moderating " 1.To MAKE or BECOME LESS extreme or intense."

@ Drac---I AM NOT a moderator, so with that out of the way, it is not my intentions or purpose to argue, put down, discredit, knock, entice, provide, or improve any part of ANY forum or discussion. Its not even my responiblity to contrbute anything. But as it seems, you like to contribute plenty of negitive comments about a car that was being dicussed in your forum, in which you are a moderator, and you don't like what is being said in it.

So with all this being said, lock down this one also.

@ Arch---Your cool!! You communicated your opinion as a moderator should. I don't want to sound like I gave you permission, but, that is the way it should be done!!

Peace, Love, and iWavers 4 EVER!!!!

machine
2004.05.08, 12:42 AM
Wow, interesting thread.

Oh btw i posted equal lap times in the stock MR01 class tonight, with my Iwaver. Which by the way was a big hit. I believe the owner said, "wow nice car, good way to get people into the sport for less.

makes you think huh?

I don't believe the Iwaver will take anything away from the kyosho brand, if anything people will be buying the MR01 parts for hopups. So another car hits the streets, if it makes a big impact onthe Kyoshos sales, they'll lower thier prices to compete or lose out on sales.

Whatever happens you'll start seeing a lot more of these "clones" at the tracks. And dude, they are both plastic toy cars.

If your the minizracer shop, wants to review the car, I have an extra NIB up for grabs. The offer stands, I'd just want to break even on the car.

balls in your court.

sg219
2004.05.08, 12:54 AM
Wow, interesting thread.

Oh btw i posted equal lap times in the stock MR01 class tonight, with my Iwaver. Which by the way was a big hit. I believe the owner said, "wow nice car, good way to get people into the sport for less.

makes you think huh?

I don't believe the Iwaver will take anything away from the kyosho brand, if anything people will be buying the MR01 parts for hopups. So another car hits the streets, if it makes a big impact onthe Kyoshos sales, they'll lower thier prices to compete or lose out on sales.

Whatever happens you'll start seeing a lot more of these "clones" at the tracks. And dude, they are both plastic toy cars.

If your the minizracer shop, wants to review the car, I have an extra NIB up for grabs. The offer stands, I'd just want to break even on the car.

balls in your court.

@machine--drop by my site and send me an email. sg219.com. It seems that my PM privleges are blocked or something. :( I might be interested.

Ken Mifune
2004.05.08, 01:21 AM
I originally came here to read about the Mini-Z and find out if its worth buying, but after the way I see Mini-Z owners treat people that don't own one, I really want to stay away. It is ashame that I came here for that reason and came across the iWaver thread, that is shut down now and started reading it, that such a closed-minded individual could be a moderator on a forum of discussions.Do not let one disagreement taint everything that is going on at Mini-ZRacer.com and please don't lump us together.
I can see how a bad first experience might lead to a prejudgement which then might turn into a rash decision, but after a while you might find it worth something more in a positive way. Give it some time.
This is also my advice for any other members that are not feeling welcome right now.
That just needed to be said, I'm not attempting to halt this thread. Let the discussion continue. If it was up to me, heat things up all you want but keep it clean. Although I'm sure if it starts going nowhere, it will be closed.
Now what round are we on?

Draconious
2004.05.09, 08:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draconious
I see were the confusion is comming from, ppl are exagerating, and "putting words in my mouth" that I did not say on other forums... bird especialy.

I am not putting anything in your mouth.... I am merely relating the facts to people. YOU do not want to hear that these are good cars. YOU continually slam them when people talk about them. YOU want people to think that ALL clones are "inferior".


Right there you just insisted that I dont want to hear they are good cars, this determines my opinion of them, in your words, not mine... I simply want every one to know what they realy are... if they are not identical to a mini-z and every one is going around saying that they are identical to a mini-z I am going to make a note, correcting any errors in whatever thread needs it, since a few members on here seem to think they need to make a new I-Waver thread the second I post that they are not a real mini-z... so [B]if it is inferior it should be known, and I highlight the word IF!!! because in the case of the I-Waver it might be a decent car... IF!! they truely fixed any of the problems in the LXX version...


[Bird:]YOU try to double talk YOUR way out of this fact by bringing moot copyright and patent arguments into the mix. I have nothing "personal" against YOU... just YOUR tactics.

You guys have done the double talking... to be honest feel that I lack this skill... If I am doing it, I do not know it... :)

[Bird:]The truth of the matter is, I could care less what anyone says about any cars, it is just the air of arrogance and contempt that radiates from YOUR words that I feel is unfairly portraying these cars.

You may see what you want in posts, because a forum post is just a quick comment, with out emotion or feeling, a line of text, its not a documentary on whatever the post subject is or what the poster was feeling, or what his point of view was at the time of the post, it should always be asumed that data is posted in an incomplete manner... especialy since 50% of the internet is littered with incoherent crap... the beinifit of the doubt should always be given to the fact that you might be reading things differently then the person who posted them intended them to be... this happens billions of times in forums I read, but dont always post on. This is almost the cause of every flame war I read, both sides constantly argueing the same point over and over getting no where... and eventualy turning into nothing but insults and profanity, cuz its not worth the time to reply... (hopefuly this is over and will not go there) -- any way, this is a tangent that I could go further on, but do not have the patients to type it here... maybe some internet guru head shrink can go on and to a Discovery channel report on it lol... there already were a few "internet conciousness articles out there"...


____________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draconious
If the I Waver was about 25$ or less AFTER SHIPPING IT TO USA, then it would be very much worth the cost...

[Bird:]What exactly am I misreading in this? Nothing. Those words were deliberately crafted to make people think it is not worth their money.

maybe if I rephrase it? If it was 25$ or less, (including not adding shipping) I would have bought one?

____________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draconious
its not exactly like an MR01, its still a clone, and the "proportionalness" of it, is not as good as the Mini-Z... and in the case of the other LXX, they tend to stop working after a few weeks... and they GLITCH like they have brain hemriges...

[Bird:]And this? Ditto.

Whats wrong with it? this was a known fact on the LXX? that they had bad recievers? this is why they suposedly upgraded it based on a few of the I-Waver threads... this is not my results or findings, this is from at least 5 or 6 different posts and comments from LXX owners... many people posted that they were happy they bought it but very mad that it glitched after a few runs... if the I-Waver was upgraded to fix this so be it, maybe it was a simple chip change?


_____________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draconious
the iwaver will eventualy have worse range issues than the mini-z once its a few runs-old... its not even worth concidering buying one...

[Bird:]Yeah... I totally misunderstood what you were saying there...

Out of context, out of time sync with other posts.... This was based on the fact that the IWaver was a reboxed LXX, this was before some one posted that they not only reboxed it but they "upgraded" it... this was likely the first post where I saw an I Waver yes? some one posted the auction? At the time I asumed it was litteraly an LXX, and with the formentined glitching problem... it was not worth the 50$(shipped) price tag...

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draconious
Sounds like a clue that, the cheaper made I waver radio is a wider band...
If this is the case, and if any one was using it to control their mini-z in an official race that I was in, I would walk over and STOMP on it, before I let them use it... cuz it might interfere with the other cars on the track... this of course after I asked them nicely to put it away .

[Bird:]Yeah... . What am I misunderstanding about this one?

Myabe, the sarcasm? the jokeing ness? the :) face? the fact that I simply would not let some one use it, if the "clue" was proven that it was a wide bad... you seem to think that I said "its a clone I will smash for no other reason", this is not what I said...

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draconious
There are also other makes and models of Mini-Z clones, intended to be in the same market, but most of these do not appear to be trying to fool buyers. They are very different in packaging and other things, but they are still not much better then the clone, canned heat, or palm runners.

[Bird:] That one is from your site... What am I not getting here? Oh, you didn't mean that, you meant that people should form their own opinions of these cars, right?
So as you can see, I am not going around other forums with some uninformed exaggerations... here are the quotes you asked for, for all to see where I am coming from... simply put, YOU do not want these cars portrayed in a positive light, and when confronted due to your tactics, will backpedal and portray the person defending the cars from YOUR slander as making "personal attacks" on you. I am not attacking YOU... just your arrogant tactics.

Out Of Context... First, this part of my clones page is in a "To Be Edited/Assimilated Later" area of the page... Should not have been part of the thread cuz it had photos to go with it... Second, its from an even older version of the page... it has NOTHING to do with the I Wavers, it even predates the LXX, it has to do with the auctions people were selling on Ebay, with those "Mini-Z" that were NOT mini-z... the ones that were including chargers etc... that were also HeiPoa versions in a different box... nothing I said here was wrong. These products were not in "fake mini-z" boxes like the first hei poa auctions were almost 2 years ago (see photos on my site)

__________

[Bird:]P.S. arch2b... I appreciate the fact that you knew the difference between "knowledge" and wisdom when you named this thread... thank you.

He named the thread, because he got "The Clones" link from my site, in the "Knowledge Base" area of my site... even though it did not realy belogn in the knowledge base area, I just put it there because the other KB pages did not exist yet, I tried to explain the second he posted this thread, that some of that page was out of date, some of it was predateing the posts on here... some of it needed to be edited... this was obviously ignored.


(in prossess of editing this)

arch2b
2004.05.09, 09:31 AM
to think this all started because iwaver reviews got tangled up with clone legitimacy issues :rolleyes: i feel for you drac, i really do. god knows i got on the bad side of a few members when i debated the whole "must support lhs" issue :rolleyes:

Draconious
2004.05.09, 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draconious
...my point on leagalities of the I waver is that they simply have leagal issues to over come...

Easy I didn't even have to go past your last post to find that.
In the New Clone Iwaver thread lat arch locked after giving you the final word Stuz originally mentioned licensing in passing briefly in post #3.


Easy From your second post #31 in the locked thread.

"unless the lxx/takaros/iwaver maker can show proof that they bought rights to sell / produce a copy of a kyosho product it is an illeagal product, and it also hurts the mini-z sales... on the bottom line... every clone sold hurts the mini-z... the prices go up (to make up for sales loss), when they should be goign down, and ppl will think its crap..."

Easy That is slander.
Draconious you raised the legal issue rigth there. Up untill that point the discussion was about comparing the Iwaver to the Mini Z and parts compatibility issues.
In post #32 post I welcomed your input to the thread and agreed the fraud you spoke of was wrong. I also offered some ideas on how the Iwaver could be a legitmate product as a part of the discussion.

This was not the first legality post, there have been many... The leagal issue of clones has been brought up numorous times on this and other forums, it has been a factor since they were first posted about years ago. And simply posting about a product that is a copy of another product brings up the "legal issues"... this was also brought on by some ones post, with the idea, true or not, that the rights were purchased from Kyosho, tokoros makes numorous clone products... including clone transformers, that may be legal to sell in other countries but they are not leagal to sell in or to the USA, when another company owns the patents and copy rights... this was being overlooked in that thread, so yes I added it to that thread...

___________

Easy
The discussion moved to track racing and introducing a new product to lhs owners and discussions about the car.
Draconious you chimmed in with post # 71 to knock the range of the LXX said the Iwaver would eventually have the same problem said you didn't own one. How can you test the Iwaver's range if you don't have it in your own hands?

see the previous post for this one

Easy Then the discussion went to more racing, the Iwaver invitational, arch selling some TTT stuff and GPM turbo compatibility and you chimeed in with this gem, post # 110.

"Sounds like a clue that, the cheaper made I waver radio is a wider band...
If this is the case, and if any one was using it to control their mini-z in an official race that I was in, I would walk over and STOMP on it, before I let them use it... cuz it might interfere with the other cars on the track... this of course after I asked them nicely to put it away ."

see the previous post for this one

Easy More about the controllers including your post #116, in your post #119 you started with the radio and a link to your web site and you also included this at the bottom.
From your post #119 same thread...

I just wish some one would pop up proof that the I Waver is OK with kyosho, be means of them selling the rights to clone it, or that kyosho just dont give a rats ass... if this was proven, and I sampled one and liked it, I would sell the bastards my self... but for now its a negative thing, that they exist.
I hate clones, because past clones were INTENTIONALY decieving buyers into thinking it was a realy Mini-Z (see my fake mini-z page) Hai Pao for example...

Easy In my post #123 I agree with you and ask why competitors in this class are so unwelcome.
Your post #124

"I say the mroe 1/24 1/28 cars the better!, just as long as its not a cheap copy of some one elses design... a sort of plagerism... theres a thing called copy right, patent etc... intelectual property rights etc...

Easy My post 126 I agree with you and discuss the cost of production grade molds and ways companies might defer molding costs.
In your post #127 as arch pointed out you went way off track in a diatribe about Chinese products. Didn't you say in some other thread we were both in that your job went to China? I'm thinking your whole attitude towards China in general has more to do with that than RC cars.

The local jobs went to India actualy... and im not ticked at india, im ticked at clinton, and those who sent their jobs there instead of hireling locals, and those places that made their employees train indian workers to go back to india to train others to do their job, basicly giving their job away to some one else at gun point...

Easy In my post #128 I agree with you again and talk about mold maintenance issues.
From your post #146

"I do not need to buy an I waver to know that its not a leagal production!? or that it is not the same thing as the real Mini-Z...
As I have said many times, I will continue to say they are illeagal and imoral (because they are!)"

Easy That is slander from one of your posts again Draconious.

It is not slander... it is simply imoral to steal some one elses product... name and all.

Easy sg219 chimmed in, arch edited his post reprimanded every one and threatened to lock the thread and then did... after giving you a fellow moderator the last word.

he was way out of line, name calling and direct attacks against members, my self included... these were removed, if that was all that was left of his post after that so be it, he was a new member and that was totaly uncalled for.


Easy Well, there are a whole bunch of quotes for you to review Draconious and I see Bird has posted a simular message too. As you said Draconious you are a moderator here and as such you should conduct yourself with a lot more decorum.
Draconious you should be keeping things neat and tidy not making such a huge mess out of a thread that a fellow moderator has to step in and bail you out. Like it or not Arch, that's what you did but you didn't solve the problem moving this here without having an off line discussion with Draconious about his behaviour first.
You can delete all these posts or edit them down but several members do not appreciate you attitude Draconious and your fellow moderators need to recognize that and deal with it instead of squelching the other members.

I will leave these last comments upto the masses to descide... I could very likely go through your posts and pick 5 to 10 issues to make you explain as well... but I just dont have the desire to do so, its not worth it.

arch2b
2004.05.09, 10:18 AM
it was like one big ugly snowball... sorry to see you go thru all that.

Draconious
2004.05.09, 06:48 PM
sg219 I bet Drac thought I gave up after he accused me of being a debater for some class project!!! Just because someone says they like to debate, you immediately jump the gun and say that I'm doin' it for fun and classwork, not because I'm angry or trying to say something positve about a car thats not a Mini-Z.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draconious
Off Topic, and hopefuly does not apply here:
I know that on other forums, not nessessarily mini-z related, some members intentionaly start "debates" in practice for "debate club/classes", if any of this is an iota related to this, we realy do not need it here... true honest feelings only here please. I only say this cuz I have seen others post in these other forums "our teacher recomended to start a debate in online chat rooms" etc, type of posts... frankly im not in the mood, I only reply when some one else posts something that makes me do so... if the issues I brought up were not already a factor on the forum, I would have never even bothered to post about the stupid clone issue...

lol, was not an accusation, it was simply a "i hope its not this again comment", and if it just happen to be it was to end it, the energy and time spent on the last few peoples posts was a little to great. to be a typical post...

sg219 I'm sorry I missed out on all the fun, but Bird, Easy, your right on.
I tried to have a ligit back and forth postin' fest with him, but it always ended up with Drac throwin' the law down because he disagreed!!

how did I throw the law down? ban you? no... edit your post? no... some one else did that... lock the thread? nope again, some one else did that... as for lagit posting fest, calling some one names and various other comments is not very lagit... (this was edited out by arch)


sg219 I see that Easy and Bird did some back tracking to prior posts and got the evidence to show whats really being denied by Drac.
I would of fired off a couple more rounds of posts, but my legal staff , said to drop it and let the negitive iWaver comments rot in their own shame and sorrow.

As I have said, my primary focus.. if I was against a clone, is against the HeiPao... since it was being sold to decieve buyers. Very few of my comments were actualy regarding the I Waver...

sg219 I originally came here to read about the Mini-Z and find out if its worth buying, but after the way I see Mini-Z owners treat people that don't own one, I really want to stay away.

How exactly were you treated? And how exactly did you treat the forum members?

sg219 It is ashame that I came here for that reason and came across the iWaver thread, that is shut down now and started reading it, that such a closed-minded individual could be a moderator on a forum of discussions.

Back to the insults again? Again with the closed-minded comments? Have you taken a long look in the mirror lately, your only contribution here has been to attack members here...

sg219 Does not the title "moderator" come from the term "moderate"?
Webster's----moderate adj. "1. Not extreme or excessive. 2. TEMPERATE. "
Webster's---moderating " 1.To MAKE or BECOME LESS extreme or intense."



sg219 @ Drac---I AM NOT a moderator, so with that out of the way, it is not my intentions or purpose to argue, put down, discredit, knock, entice, provide, or improve any part of ANY forum or discussion. Its not even my responiblity to contrbute anything. But as it seems, you like to contribute plenty of negitive comments about a car that was being dicussed in your forum, in which you are a moderator, and you don't like what is being said in it.

Again many of my comments regarding this has gone in one ear and out the other...

So with all this being said, lock down this one also.

@ Arch---Your cool!! You communicated your opinion as a moderator should. I don't want to sound like I gave you permission, but, that is the way it should be done!!

Peace, Love, and iWavers 4 EVER!!!!

PAULANGELO
2004.05.09, 07:26 PM
Arch, I remember that thread, I still say your wrong :D . (maybe this will distract the Iwaver issue??)

Mondo
2004.05.10, 04:28 AM
Erm.. in my opinion the best way to compliment a good product is to copy it.

The clones are a great budget substitute for the real thing, but the principle of the matter is that they have copied the Kyosho Mini-Z chassis.
This shows lack of imagination from clone manufacturers like Heiapo and Iwaver, if they had any faith in their own product, they would have designed their own chassis.
Some may believe that they "borrowed" the chassis concept from Kyosho to make it compatible with Mini-Z upgrades. I don't believe this is the case.
All the clone manufacturers are doing is trying to fool the naive consumer into believing they are getting the "real thing" at a discounted price.

It will only be a question of time before these clone manufacturers start churning out MR-02, Overland and Monster type clones.

Each to his own, in my opinion, clones just don't hack it. There is no substitute for quality and the genuine Kyosho MiniZ Racer.
I'll back this statement up by using the Aoshima products as an example.
Aoshima produce themed bodyshells, like the Mad Max Interceptor, Back to the Future, Knight Rider and Japanese anime ReadySets.
Underneath these bodyshells there is a genuine Kyosho Mini-Z Racer. The TX is the genuine article too, so rest assured, the product is pure quality.
If these clones were quality items, Aoshima would have used them as a budget substitute to the Kyosho product.

What I would like to know is if any of the clone owners have had any warranty issues with their beloved knock-offs.

machine
2004.05.13, 12:16 AM
I've raced mine against some MR01, and no glitching issues, no damage other than a mirros breaking off. But that happens on the MR01's as well which is why the LHS has a never ending supply of CA. :D

I raced in our stock MR01 class (i asked and had the car teched by the shop owner, who thought the clear remote was pretty cool) stock motor and rubber tires, must be a MR01 body i have the Subara rally body, and not fet upgrades.
I finished 4th out of 9, not to bad considering i forgot to hit the start button on the charger for a quick repeak.
I let pretty much everyone try it, and the only complaint was that the steering spring was alittle strong. Hehe so i race with a few limp wristers LOL

I've since added foam tires, wide wheel, a toe out tie rod, and the escalation high speed motor (similiar to the xspeed) oh and a pinion set. The iwaver only comes with 1 pinion. All the parts are GPM MR01 and they all fit perfectly.

I really like the Iwaver, i also love my OL and my MR02. But really you need to try the car to see.

I found this tonight looking for hop ups on ebay
*** URL REMOVED ***

And it's local shipping, not out of China. Woohoo :D

Once i get my camera working i'll snap some shots.

easy
2004.05.13, 02:42 AM
Hi Draconious,

I'm glad to see you put this thread back with your reply to my post. Thank you.

Having read your replies to Bird, sg219 and I I think I'm beggining to understand some of the causes of this situation.

You said yourself you were a marginal english student. That combined with your strong feelings about clones and your views on posting in forums probably does cause your posts to read differently than you intend them to. I think that is why you find yourself misquoted, misread or misunderstood so often.

Draconious I honestly applaud your desire to prevent people from getting ripped off and I'll support you to the end on that. I do not however support your position that all clones are illegal or illegitimate.

Stuz did as I said before guess the Iwaver was licensed or made with molds purchased from Kyosho but he did not raise any legal or legitimacy issues.

Draconious you are the one who raised the legitimacy issue in the New Clones Iwaiver thread in post #31. Saying you did not because the issue has been discussed in earlier threads is such a woeful argument I can't belive you're using it.

To discuss this any further with you is a moot point Draconious. Thanks for a lively debate.

PAULANGELO
2004.05.13, 07:23 AM
I think that is why you find yourself misquoted, misread or misunderstood so often.

looks to me he is only getting misquoted by a select few. Would have been a good post without the slamming.

machine
2004.05.13, 10:24 AM
Hey guys next time you edit my post, how about checking my spelling??

Whatever.

the fact that Drac and easy are discussing the legalities of "clones" is a moot point here. I doubt the either has any clue as the the copyright laws in China/India. I believe it's Copyright = right to copy. All we as consumers can do is make the best decision im spending our own money.

But keeping this thread on track, i'm seeing the Iwavers popping up all over other forums. So i'm guessing they are here to stay.

Mondo
2004.05.13, 11:32 AM
Hey guys next time you edit my post, how about checking my spelling??

But keeping this thread on track, i'm seeing the Iwavers popping up all over other forums. So i'm guessing they are here to stay.

Firstly, Posts are Edited for a reason, we are not here to spell check them. Ask your school/college for a refund :D

They are here to stay? Oh well, c'est la vie

Draconious
2004.05.13, 04:31 PM
replying because of machines post, not easy's...

The clones are 100% leagal in China/Tiwan/HongKong/Etc, its USA/CA/UK/ and possibly AU that they infringe on some simple common sense international logo issues and likely other things that I can not prove with out knowing if they wre bought from kyosho or not (I highly doubt it). If they had the liscenses for ford, it would say so on the package, same with dodge, and same with ferrari/hotwheels... if they truely had the rights to sell them from kyosho, they would have these copy right notice on the Iwaver box, same as those that are on all the Mini-Z readysets and autoscales...

They basicly are not illeagal to purchase on a personal level, but if any store were to stock them on their shelf in the US, the store would be participaiting in any possible legal issues... if any... but they are minor, not as minor as jaywalking, but minor...

sg219
2004.05.13, 10:07 PM
sg219 I'm sorry I missed out on all the fun, but Bird, Easy, your right on.
I tried to have a ligit back and forth postin' fest with him, but it always ended up with Drac throwin' the law down because he disagreed!!

Drac>>>how did I throw the law down? ban you? no... edit your post? no... some one else did that... lock the thread? nope again, some one else did that... as for lagit posting fest, calling some one names and various other comments is not very lagit... (this was edited out by arch)


Close-minded is an adjective describing someone, not a noun, like moron, or idiot, would be name calling!! Which you are not..... :rolleyes:


sg219 It is ashame that I came here for that reason and came across the iWaver thread, that is shut down now and started reading it, that such a closed-minded individual could be a moderator on a forum of discussions.

sg219 Does not the title "moderator" come from the term "moderate"?
Webster's----moderate adj. "1. Not extreme or excessive. 2. TEMPERATE. "
Webster's---moderating " 1.To MAKE or BECOME LESS extreme or intense."


sg219 @ Drac---I AM NOT a moderator, so with that out of the way, it is not my intentions or purpose to argue, put down, discredit, knock, entice, provide, or improve any part of ANY forum or discussion. Its not even my responiblity to contrbute anything. But as it seems, you like to contribute plenty of negitive comments about a car that was being dicussed in your forum, in which you are a moderator, and you don't like what is being said in it.


Well moderator, you didn't moderate or do any moderating, just more enticement for arguements by slaming the iWaver.


You should of sat back and let the thread go whereever it was going, then step in and said you hate the iWaiver because it is stepping on Mini-Z's toes and you don't like that and then moved along with your daily editing.

Thanks for being so open-minded on a new product!!

Peace, Love, and iWavers 4 EVER!!!!


Thanks to all who have posted in the iWaver's defense!!!!! You know who you are!!!!!! :D

Draconious
2004.05.13, 10:48 PM
At the risk of this causing more gas on a usless fire... I was just browsing the web.. for related issues...

http://entertainmentdesignmag.com/ar/show_business_flood_fakes_coping/
http://www.businessweek.com/1996/43/b349845.htm
http://www.bladeforums.com/magazine/secure/jan/knockoffs.shtml

Ebay Auction Removal for Ilegal Bit Char G products (http://members.*******a/ws2/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=tomy.ltd)

easy
2004.05.13, 11:23 PM
Tips for Taming Knockoffs
GET LEGAL PROTECTION: Patents, trademarks, and copyrights cost several thousand dollars in legal fees, but they're invaluable in scaring away copycats.

DEFEND YOURSELF AGGRESSIVELY: Sic attorneys on knockoff artists immediately. Delaying weakens your legal rights, gives imitators an opportunity to steal customers, and encourages new copycats.

AVOID PROBLEM COUNTRIES: Think twice before selling, licensing, or manufacturing your product in nations where counterfeiting thrives, such as China, the former Soviet Union, and Mexico.

Good advice I'd have to say, why do you suppose Kyosho isn't following it?

So what is a patent?

A patent for an invention is the grant of a property right to the inventor, issued by the Patent and Trademark Office. The term of a new patent is 20 years from the date on which the application for the patent was filed in the United States or, in special cases, from the date an earlier related application was filed, subject to the payment of maintenance fees. US patent grants are effective only within the US, US territories, and US possessions. You can apply for a patent with others countries but this is very expensive and time consuming. Most US manufacturers only get US patents.

This is interesting... Kyosho is a Japaneese comapny who appears to manufacture its products in China. What makes you think they would go to the expense of getting pattents in the US/Canada/UK/Aus? Didn't you say the US is a small market that Kyosho doesn't care about? I don't think the other 3 combined would even be as large as the potential US market.

You may be interested to know that New York and California individually are larger markets than Canada. Combine them and add the rest of the US and I think you get the picture.

Do you think maybe Kyosho might have crunched the numbers and determined the potential sales in these markets didn't justify the cost of getting patents in them?

It looks like you also posted an ebay link of some sort Draconious, isn't that against your forum's rules? Mind you it doesn't work so I guess the filter caught it for you.

Draconious
2004.05.13, 11:46 PM
it was a link about TOMY (bit charg) auctions that were yanked.. cuz they were fakes... or made in japan versions lol...

easy
2004.05.13, 11:54 PM
So I guess someone jumped the gun not realising microsizers and Tomy are the same thing just sold under different names in Japan and USA? lol, that's pretty funny you'd think they'd check their facts first. ;)

Draconious
2004.05.14, 01:26 AM
well the tomy microsizer thing isnt the whole issue, that is just a side effect, they dont want ppl using non US instruction units cuz its unsafe, in reality they likely mean the non standard frequencies, and dont wnat to go into detail about it...

the real issue with tha tpage, is the fake Bit CharG's wich has at least 50 different "brands" being made all with out tomy's permission they did NOT liscense it out to ANY one to copy... even the LXX bit charge clones are NOT leagal... tomy has many lawsuits pending... they went as far as to make ebay anounce this and remove the fakes when found when listed on the site...

Also note that the only Mini-Z made in China is the MR01... the rest are ONLY made in JAPAN... likely because some one leaked the design... and they are some what protecting the newer MR02 OL and Monster...

easy
2004.05.14, 07:47 PM
As soon as a product hits the market anyone who wants to copy it can buy it legally and then just run it through a Co-ordinate Measurement Machine, CMM.

The CMM measures it and creates a program that can be translated to a CNC program from which parts or molds can be made. It would probably only take a couple of hours to do it and I'm sure they know it.

machine
2004.05.15, 12:48 AM
Hey whats the deal on the ebay link?!? I get post edited and you go ahead and post a link to ebay??

If Iwaver is infridging on the kyosko trademark than I can see an issue in japan/china and the US.

To get around a copyright all you really need to do is loop-hole the design, make it out of a different material and so on.

Associated came out with the first 2wd buggy, then on the scene came Losi with a 2wd buggy, not the same car but close. -loop-hole-

Associate came out with a 2wd stadium truck, then Losi followed suit. -loop-hole-

and so on and so on.

Look at the carpet knife from Calibdra racing vs the trinity carpet knife. minor differences esentially the same car.

Unless you have the design and the legal (correct spelling) documents you really are just talking smack about something you don't personnally like or sell. Thats fine it's a public forum, that you happen to be a mod on.

Hello ebay link??

Draconious
2004.05.21, 08:19 AM
Machine your post was selling something, selling was not allowed on the forum untill you have 50 posts that contribute to the forum, or if you actualy email and ask to do so before you do so... ebay links to your own IWaver auctions count as selling things. This rule has been in place for a few years, it ticks people off, but its there for a reason, other stores have abused it, and spamed the forum much to the likes of viagra emails... This has been told to you each time your ebay links were deleted...

This link that I posted was in relation to ilegal bit charG products, and such auctions being removed from ebay itself, by ebay, on behalf of TOMY...

SG, your posts here were removed, they were uncalled for... and direct intentional misquotes attacking a moderator (yes me) to be "funny" by your own admission... thus removed...

PAULANGELO
2004.05.21, 09:21 AM
For anyone who saw my post, I apologize. I had a few drinks last night and saw what a member had done. I too then misquoted this garish individual.
Drac, thanks for removing it.

Draconious
2004.05.21, 09:48 AM
oops forgot I removed that one too... if a "bad" post brings about a chain of other "bad" posts I will remove them... as long as they dont actualy contribute anything to the forum... other wise i might just edit the "silly" part out... lol.