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easy
2004.05.08, 11:29 PM
The Clones Body of Knowledge thread started by arch2b in the beginner forum after he locked the New Clones Iwaver thread in the new products forum has been deleted.

I believe this has occurred because I was asked by moderator Draconious to show him where he slandered the Iwaver clone directly, initiated discussions on copyright violations by the makers of the Iwaver and said things himself that he claims were either exaggerated and/or misquotes made by other people.

Bird and I both posted several quotes from Draconious proving that he did all of the things he claims he did not and that he was also the aggressive influence in the discussion that caused moderator arch2b to lock the thread.

A third member sg219 also posted a definition of the word moderator for Draconious and said he thought Draconiousí aggressive demeanour violated Draconiousí own definition of a moderatorís duties on the forum. A fourth new member said he came to this forum to learn about the Mini Z and was disappointed to see the draconian attitude that Draconious exhibited in his posts.

Instead of doing the honourable thing and apologising to the other members and myself Draconious or someone else decided to hide his humiliation by deleting the thread instead of accepting responsibility for his unacceptable behaviour.

Shame on you Draconious for not having the character to accept responsibility for your unbecoming behaviour.

Draconious
2004.05.09, 12:07 AM
You have everything all wrong... at at some point you will realise this, and it will be YOU who does the apologizing...

You, few, did everyting but directly lie in your posts, you constantly twisted what I said to fit your needs, and constantly took things out of context... made it look like I said something about object X, when it was realy about object Y... there were even a few sarcastic posts that you took way too seriously... Its a load of crap and you know it... the only one that should be ashamed and humiliated is you... for wasting any ones time who has read this dribble.

These types of posts are impossible to correct, I have tried, you do not listen, you do not care, the only action left was to delete them... or you will just keep adding totaly irrelevent comments...

The thread should not have been started in the first place, and it was not intended to continue your flame war... it was intended to discuss the clone issue... As I said in the thread if it could not be kept about the clones them selves, instead of some ones view on them, it will be deleted, and you had to go summon your buddies to all post within X minutes of each other... to do nothing but belittle me. I do not feel it worth the time or energy, that you have put forth in the matter, to correct your very misguided posts...

I have said a million times read the dang threads again, and only the parts I said, not what others said, it will help, maybe two or three times will help even more, before you go claiming I said what I did not... and again I will remind you, almost all my "CLONE" threads are in regards to the HEIPOA!!! NOT THE FLIPPING IWAVER... but this just goes in one ear and out the other...

You continue to turn this into a war... why? are you this bored? I keep telling you to drop it, you refuse too...

As of NOW, there are to be no further comments involving me on this matter from you, or those posting in that thread, you WILL be banned.

easy
2004.05.09, 02:54 AM
I guess you should talk to arch2b about why he started that thread Draconious not me.

All Bird and I did is what you asked and that is to show you where you said things that we objected to. Instead of meeting your own challenge and taking the time to correct us you simply deleted the entire thread.

The only reason for you to do that and not let anyone who is interested read and decide for themselves is because you could not alter the facts in you favour.

You can ban me and every one else who disagrees with you draconious but if you do the membership around here is going to shirink and sales at the shop are likely to be affected.

You should start asking yourself why so many people percieve you as a bully and not the cool voice of reason you perceive yourself as.

Ken Mifune
2004.05.09, 03:02 AM
wait a minute. was the thread deleted? If it was, who deleted it? It was the thread that was suppose to contain this "discussion" and keep it from turning into a multi-thread character bash-fest ala NML / manchowder.

PAULANGELO
2004.05.09, 07:55 AM
I have been sitting on the sidelines and cannot take this anymore, Drac has been attempting to educate people when it comes to buying the clones, He brings up some valid points. I read that he is bashing the Iwaver. I don't read him doing so, he is not putting it up with the Mini Z and that is his opinion and perogitive. I cannot see where he is getting personal with any of the members. Now on the other hand, you people that are attempting to defend the Iwaver and other clones, You have not provided the information needed to dispute so you are getting personal and slamming Drac. Why? Are you so insecure with getting and liking the Iwaver that what one person says is his opinion bothers you so much?? Instead of slamming, attempt if you can to build up the Iwaver. I have seen some members do just this and the reading has been enjoyable (thanks TJBryant). But they have stopped because of all the slanderous typing and enuendo going on. Easy, How do you know wthat Drac deleted the thread?? Your post states so and slams him for it. Is Drac the only moderator?? I am beginning to believe that an apology is needed but not from Drac. To me, it looks like no one will ever agree with this issue. That is not a bad thing. What is bad is when it gets personal. To me, that is a person grasping because they are not informed enough to debate the facts (or they know they are on the losing side.)
As far as information that Arch put out here, He copied it all from Dracs site so if you would like to get some more information, read his site!!

Draconious
2004.05.09, 09:16 AM
I actualy did delete the thread, well not litteraly deleted.. it was moved to another "area" of the forum... I did this because I was teamed up on, with a tripple and sort of a quadruple post, from multiple people... and very long posts... to try and fix... sigh... I have them in a unviewable area of the forum, while I type out my reply, since I have to reply to 3 fairly long posts... and now is not the best time for me to do so... it also keeps it "locked" for further bashing... untill the matter is resolved... When I am done replying so to speak... I will put the thread back were it was, its just too out of hand to leave it sit and fester while I am away... I realy should not bring it back to view, but I will...

Also note that some one in the thread posted that their PMs were disabled, as if they thought they were being punished, this is disabled on the entire forum... to save server space, its been this way for a few years... so dont try to use little things like this to try and make me look bad :).

I need this time to type, because as my C's and D's in English class's in the past, have proven, I am not the best with words... in this particular case it needs special attention...

Now go tell your mothers that you love them... I got better things to do today.

___

Thanks PAULANGELO... it took a lot to be the first to say that, concidering the situation, and the potential flame that could follow...

Untill I find another item that requires it, the only thing that I will apologize for now, is my hasty posts that are obviously always miss read by at least one person out there, and my desire to keep people from being screwed in the ebay auctions... (the decietful ebay auctions where the soal purpose of my clones page, and they have nothing to do with the I waver...)
http://draconious.com/Mini-Z/_FakeMini-Z.html

techno
2004.05.09, 10:03 AM
Is it a bad idea to start the Iwaver its own spot on the forum?
The Iwaver has growing following everyday and because it is so close to the mini-z as in all the parts. Why canít it be a bastard cousin of the mini-z? A spot to provide support and get the people with limited means into a real mini-z someday. Unlike the x-mod the I-waver shares so much in common with the Z I think it would be a great thing to welcome members with I-wavers to this forum and make it a better place for everyone and maybe change their hearts and not only their minds to the real z

PAULANGELO
2004.05.09, 11:07 AM
Drac, No problem, If any negative responses come from my post, It only proves my point more. I agree with techno, This form name is Mini Z Racer, I don't read the work Kyosho in it anywhere. Any thoughts of a thread for the iwaver? That way, Drac can stay out of it and anyone can say how much they adore it. Free speech and all.

techno
2004.05.09, 01:14 PM
The two things that needs to be addressed if a Iwaiver forum is viable
1. The personal attacks against members need to stop
2. The age old vs. questions need to be limited
the Iwaiver and the Kyosho mini-z are not on the same par and should not be constantly compared although the Iwaiver is a cheap alternative to the Kyosho MR01 its like comparing a MR02 to a MR01 in my view
I think it would be in the interest of the forum to support the Iwaiver because of all the parts that can be sold to people who own them and the whole new generation to own these and introduce them to the hobby that is 1:28 scale mini-z racing
I am not a mod or anyone with great influence just an observer looking at where we are and could be. Heck I donít even own an Iwaiver yet.

easy
2004.05.10, 04:48 PM
I agree that a seperate Iwaver forum should be added and I agree that the issues discussed should be about the product not the people or the legitmacy of the product.

I also think that comments about the specifc performance aspects of any product should be based on personal experience with the product being discussed only. I do not feel it is appropriate to condem specific performance characteristics based on experience with a different version of the product only.

stuZ
2004.05.10, 07:24 PM
an I waiver thread would be great.
we're now all aware that they are inferior, yet good.

it's easy: buy something you like, and use it. have fun.
if someone else doesn't like it, who cares!!
let them state their opinion and move on.
You're wasting the skin on your fingers if you think a long-winded post will change their mind. (you can use this post as an example;-)
there was some good info in those threads amongst the 'he said, we said'.
too bad those interested had to wade.

some people live for this internet tit-for-tat b.s.,
and it's sort of starting to look like:
'here we go again...'

sigh... :rolleyes:

easy
2004.05.10, 08:54 PM
I agree that there was good information intended to educate in the thread and I truly believe that is what each of us is trying to do.

A lot of my posts are too long so I'll work on getting to the point more quickly in the future. Thanks for the tip Stuz.

USATorque55
2004.05.16, 09:01 PM
I would like an IWaiver section...

Or an MR-01 section. Same thing structurally. Same hop-ups other than electrical MosFets or such.

easy
2004.05.16, 09:52 PM
Hopefully the administrators will make an Iwaver and or MR-01 forum. I agree they could easily be combined.

On this site you can check the Mini RC forum as there are few posts there about the Iwaver.

TJFBryant
2004.05.18, 05:19 PM
I have been silent on this forum because I truely believe my views about the Iwaver as a RC hobbiest were taken to a whole other level.
SO in that...I would like to say Lets stop the bickering and bashing and negativity on both sides.
Yes, I like the Iwaver. I like the product. And I have fun with it. WE are all RC fans here (I hope, unless I have the wrong forum). We all deserve our own opinions and views, afterall, it is the Internet (free speech and all).

Lets continue to educate and LEARN more about the Mini Z and its competitors (including clones).
I know this is a MINI Z forum where the majority of people are Big Kyosho fans, but this shouldn't stop anyone from posting their positive or negative INTELLIGENT thoughts about another product most people know little about, or (maybe) unwilling to learn about.
So
I agree,
We should have a Iwaver thread. This way, those who don't care about the Iwaver or its topics don't even have to view the new thread topics. It'll be in its own category without harming the Many fans who enjoy their "Z."
Personally I happen to be a Z fan and an Iwaver fan. Not to mention a DTM fan....hehehe

Finally Thank you to all, Easy, Arch2b, Drac, PaulAngelo and many others for your views on this extremely interesting product and discussion.
Now lets be friends. :D

easy
2004.05.18, 11:16 PM
TJF, I think you are right however, I do think everyone should know just how low draconious is willing to sink to prevent people from buying a clone. The following is a post by Draconious at TinyRC.com in the X-mod forum, a forum for a product targeted at America's youth.

While this post is about a month old it popped right up in a thread when I did a search for Iwaver on TinyRC today.

I doubt they [bought] them from kyosho, likely a factory that was supose to produce them, was "fired" yet kept making them, or they found them dumpster diving.. not 100% the same as kyosho also, so they likely reproduced them from re-molding a store bought Mini_Z... they are still reproduction quality, and no more than that... as I said Xmod is actualy better.. falls apart less etc...

Same ol' same ol but take a look at the next paragraph... :eek:

I just hope its not some child labor camp that produces them... or terrorist groups that benifit from it... (this is the case with more products than you would think).

I am posting this because I lost both my grandfathers and an uncle in armed conflicts before I even had the privaledge of meeting them. Draconious that post was WAY out of line in a youth oriented forum about toy cars. Where in god's name is your perspective man?!

Draconiuos, I find it absolutely disgusting that you would exploit the pain and suffering of the victims and families who lost loved ones to acts of terrorisim and armed conflict to further your petty campain for something as insignificant as your desire to promote a toy car.

You really need to seek out the services of a mental health professional.

PAULANGELO
2004.05.19, 08:08 AM
Easy, what does this have to do with the Iwaver?? Again you do nothing constructive or add to the Iwaver debate but slam a member of this forum. I think it is YOU that needs professional help. As everyone else is looking to move forward and disscuse the merits/disadvantages of getting a clone, you are still mud slinging. Do you fell better in attempting to belittle a moderator in this forum? I suggest you find something better to do with your time. For I am getting tired of reading your drivel.

easy
2004.05.19, 10:50 AM
Paulangelo, you don't see a problem with an adult using the fear of international terrorisim to defer sales away from a product in a youth oriented forum about toy cars? I could have started a new thread or used the thread I started to complain about Draconious' methods but I posted here so members involved in this discussion would receive an email notice. I think Draconious' methods are unethical and I'd like to know what the rest of you think.

This thread has never really been about the merits of the Iwaver because this thread was the direct result of Draconious initiating the legal discussion in the New Clones Iwaver thread. My greatest concern is why does Draconious really campaign so hard to deflect sales from the Iwaver and other clones to used Mini Zs?

Is that because a used Mini Z with an unknown history really is a better value than an Iwaver or is it because Draconious does not sell Iwavers and he does sell used mini Zs on his web site? Draconious includes his web site address in every post where he advises people to buy used Mini Zs instead of Iwavers or other clones. If people happen to click on Draconious' link, well what do you know I can buy a used mini Z right here! Everyone should stop, take a breath and really think about that for a few minutes.

Paulangelo, I notice your are not supporting Draconious for raising the threat of international terrorisim indirectly to support his still unsubtantiated opinions of the Iwaver. So answer this question:

Do you think raising the threat of international terrorisim and the fear it causes is an ethical and moral way for an adult to support his unsubstantiated opinions on a youth oriented forum discussing the Iwaver and other toy cars or not?

PAULANGELO
2004.05.19, 11:46 AM
Do you think raising the threat of international terrorisim and the fear it causes is an ethical and moral way for an adult to support his unsubstantiated opinions on a youth oriented forum discussing the Iwaver and other toy cars or not?

If you are asking my opinion, the question is loaded, the words "his unsubstantiated opinions " is wrong. If it is his opinion, there is no need for anyone to substantiate them. For him to have this opinion due to those fears, I feel is valid. To voice them in a forum for the RC hobbiest I don't think is the place. For someone to have to defend their "opinion" on these forums is also not right. To futher this line of questioning is also out of order. This is not a political forum therefore we should be talking about the cars we all enjoy running. That is why I suggested a Iwaver thread for just that. Drac has his right to feel the way he does. He dosn't have to answer to anyone. Anyone else too for that matter. I have gained alot of information from this forum and hope to continue to do so. I have also tried to share information that I have gained fron trial and error. (more error) That is the reason for people to join, read, and contribute to this forum. Not to slander, bicker and tear the members down. There are other forums out there that are for just that.

That is just my opinion :)

stuZ
2004.05.19, 12:12 PM
some people live for this internet tit-for-tat b.s.,
and it's sort of starting to look like:
'here we go again...'

sigh...


I'll admit that those are some large conclusions to jump to, but why jump yourself?


'...so, tell me about your childhood...' :D

PAULANGELO
2004.05.19, 12:17 PM
stuZ, You are so right. I'm done. ;)

easy
2004.05.19, 12:38 PM
Paulangelo, I agree with everything you just said. Specifically that this is not a political forum. Draconious is entitled to his opinion, I have no need for him to either like or dislike the Iwaver.

I do however believe that Draconious does present his opinion as fact quite often and he does raise many inappropriate legal and political issues in this forum to support his views. Draconious also words his posts to be alarming and incite arguments. Draconious has taken the Iwaver discussions way off topic when his views are challenged.

Draconious accuses me of that because every time he raised the legality and legitimacy issues I offered at least one possible business strategy to explain how the Iwaiver may have been produced legally.

Like everyone else I want to see this stopped. I think it is up to Draconious' peers, the other moderators here and the administration of the TinyRC forums to do a through investigation of this matter, determine all of the causes and factors involved and take corrective actions. This forum is a business and as such they should be willing to make the time to determine what has happened here.

Personally I think the administration should advise all members against even suggesting indirectly or otherwise that a product is illegal, illagitimate or benefiting undesireables in any way whatsoever unless they have documented verifiable eveidence that the opinion or statement they are presenting is true. Such statements and opinions should be considered as inapropriate as profanity, discrimination and other violatins of basic human rights.

If such a policy were implemented and enforced problems like this would be preveted in the future. The only reason to use indirect references or opinions when including inappropriate or unverified material in a post is to try and avoid accountability for issuing them. If a member isn't willing to take full responsibility for what they say in a post they just shouldn't post it in a public forum.

Do you agree that Draconious did not raise the legal issue and start this discussion in the New Clones Iwaver thread because the legality of clones has been discussed before in other threads and forums?

Ken Mifune
2004.05.19, 12:59 PM
I think in order for it to be a valid point, "unsubstantiated opinion" needs defining.

---the Rumor: Your opinion is your own unless you're borrowing it. Regurgitating someone's opinion as your own is hearsay or falseclaims. How valid is this opinion since it was not formed from first hand experience? It is deceiving.

---the Assumption: Someone can also form an opinion from assuming too much. Again, no real experience. It's a guess. and when stating an assumption with such vigor and conviction as if it were indeed fact is also deceiving.

---the Bold Face Lie: (We all know this is deceiving.)

---Misunderstood: Someone can form an opinion of something they don't really comprehend.


So, I think there is such a thing as an "unsubstanciated opinion", but that's just my opinion. ;)


We all want the truth but sifting through BS is quite a chore.

That's why I appreciate stuff like "I think"; "maybe"; "IMO"; "perhaps"; "how about"... It's seems alot less bossy.
It is the really strong opinions that I look out for. "Methinks thou dost protest too much."

easy
2004.05.19, 01:43 PM
Hi Ken,

You are right in that i do have strong opinions on certain issues and do post them vigorously. In that sense Draconious and I have a lot in common so I can appreciate his approach to a point.

I have no issue about opinions about the cars themselves or the products if they pertain to the function, fit value ect. Even in this srea I do think that someone who condems a product's performance characteristics should have first hand knowledge of what they are saying. In some posts Draconious doesn't meet that criteria.

I haven't experienced the problems with my Iwaver Draconious talks about and you know how I'm treating it.

I have very strong feelings about unsubstanciated material being posted whether presented as fact or opinion. I think the laws of the land the person is loctaed in should be observed and I think we should all be accountable to that standardard.

So I'll put the same question to you Ken I did to Pauangelo, do you think Draconious' tactic of raising the threat of terrorisim and the fear it invokes is appropriate to support his opinion of the Iwaver?

Ken Mifune
2004.05.19, 02:01 PM
Drac has been dead wrong in the past but in this instance he did say "I just hope it's not..." so he is not being accusatory, maybe just a little self-righteous, judgemental and indignant. (who loves ya Drac? ;) ) This one kinda comes down to interpretation.

Although it's an extreme topic (slave labor and terrorism) there's nothing wrong with being globally aware. and if you're in these fora you're old enough to handle it.

easy
2004.05.19, 03:13 PM
I realise Dracounious did say " I hope..." but he pretty much always includes a back door like that to absolve himself of posts like that if necessary. That is another of his tactics that I object to.

In this way it can be argued that he didn't actually say what he did but merely suggested it. While the back door may protect Draconious from the letter of the law it may not protect him from the spirit of the law in the USA in particular when the subject matter is international terrorism.

Ken, he is on very dangerous ground and he could find himself in a lot of trouble if he does not fully understand the laws he's attempting to skirt around. While there is nothing wrong with being globally aware I think those issues are best presented to youths by their parents and professional educators. Draconious and no one else here has any right to try and brush the material presented in that post as insignificant or educational.

There is no justification at all for an adult with unknown motives to be in a forum presenting those kinds of ideas in a discussion about toy cars. While youths today may be worldly most will not have the education or life experience to really understand the issues related to such topics.

Please also consider the younger teens who may have lost a parent or sibling to terorrisim that go on that forum to get information on a toy car. Is there really any valid reason to have those comments come up as a result of their search on a web site about toy cars?

The owners of the TinyRC group should be very thankful I'm not the parent of a youth who found that post by accident because if i were I'd be doing everything possible to have the site shut down.

Ken Mifune
2004.05.19, 04:46 PM
easy,
You asked me a question and I gave you an honest answer. Why are you arguing with me?
and you're starting to repeat yourself. That's not very effective.

Draconious
2004.05.19, 04:48 PM
1. This thread had nothing to do with me, you started the thread...

2. You posted it here, because you Know it deserves to be deleted, and the mods dont yet have mod ship in this area of the forum...

3. You posted the reply here for the same reason...

4. This is not worth a reply from me, I warned you if you could not stick to the I Waver good bad issue, and drop the "i hate draconious because he hates the toy I bought" issue... that you would be delt with... yet you keep on bringing this up...

5. As soon as David fixes the mod issues with this area of forum, this thread will be deleted... as it should have been the day you created it. And if you post so much as 1 more, post about this...... your banned.





Now I am sure you will go on, oh you cant defend your self you would rather just delete the post than reply.. yata yata, but its not worth the effort... you acuse me of things you step right up and do your self... If I stop replying and just leave it here, you will not stop, it will keep going... this in itself is slander, since your so big on that word, its also boardering on being a fanatic, or stalker...
Since when are my posts "tactics?!" your posts are definatly tactical... I dont have the time to come up with such tactics, nor do I want to its plane rude... lol.. they are just posts on a forum for crying out loud, if I was in person I'd have said the same blasted thing... So far you complain that I post too often about the clones... you have post over twice as many posts and threads with my name in it.. than I have with the word CLONE in it! If you search for evil you will find it, regardless of where you look. Back doors? LOL :) here we go making stuff up again... You claim I brought up the leagal issue again, when a product is boarderline leagal its sort of a Given... the terms CLONE, Just Like, and KnockOff alone bring this up, it does not literaly need to be typed to be brought up... as you have said your self.

As I have to tell my dog, three times... before he will listen...
Drop IT! Drop IT! Drop IT!! Drop IT! Drop IT!

TJFBryant
2004.05.19, 04:58 PM
ok,...ummm this topic is still about the Iwaver right??

I leave for a day and it becomes a politically correct or incorrect crapper fest.
Moderators, please remove this thread... the bickering needs to stop thank you.

Once politics and political views start up and fester in a forum solely about Mini Z's and micro hobby, the poopy hits the fan.

PaulAngelo, Ken Mifune, Easy, Drac, everyone...its time to walk away...So let me start by asking...

DOes anyone here have a 1/24th ABC DTM??? I still can't wait to finish the model RC? I am waiting for my emectronics and hop up parts in the mail...so excited.
(**Is that a subject change or what?**)

machine
2004.05.19, 05:12 PM
i agree, as a potiential customer to Mini z racer i don't want to read this trivial.

I search for information about the new car on the block, aka Iwaver, and all i get is this!!

The more i read posts on this forum with Drac chiming in the more I look elsewere to spend my money. And there are quite a few out there.

Good-bye Miniracer store (includig Tinyrc for my bits), i will not hand over my $$ to you anymore nor will i allow my friends to do the same as group buys from Canada save alot on shipping. I will continue to browse the forum pages from time to time, but i'm tired of having to wade through this garbage to find something useful.

Now off to find another dealer of the RCP tracks..... :(

Draconious
2004.05.19, 05:20 PM
Machine you crack me up... now I effect your purchases, yes, sure, ok... whatever... wading through all of what about 5 total posts that were my own stepping in? when the rest were all replies to Easy, you, or the others? If you dont want to wade through it, DO NOT POST IT!

Now its an "attack drac until he is removed as a mod" issue?
Why do you guys feel you need to search out and use every weapon you can against me? LOL...

I do nothing but try to keep people in the know... there is no little scheme for me to hurt sales of some copy cat product... you guys on the other hand.........

They belittle me and use the fact that I sell used Mini-Z against me, but did any of us know they sell I wavers on ebay!? LOL...

easy
2004.05.19, 05:25 PM
Ken, not to argue with you but if we brush off his tactics because he says he hopes its not true then were shouldn't be surprised that he continues to use them.

Folks here don't have a problem telling me they think my posts are inappropriate so why can't people tell Draconious the same thing? Draconious did after all start this discussion back in the New Clones Iwaver thread.

Draconious, how would I know this forum is unmoderated and beyond your control to censor? I posted here becuse this forum asks for comments about this web site.

I can't understand why you are upset Draconious. you obviously posted that subject matter to provoke strong emotions, why are you complaining that it did?

Don't blame me for stumbling on to a forum on the site you can't control. There should not be any forum up here out of the reach of the moderators. Take that up with the administrators.

Go ahead and ban me though there are better sites than this around and a lot of us here get along just fine on those sites when you are not around. Why do you suppose that is?

TJFBryant
2004.05.19, 05:31 PM
Drac, Let me throw this out and say I never personally attacked you or felt indifferent about you or your views in anyway.
I just want people to put their differences aside, and realize WE are ultimately fighting and disagreeing over a material good. At least thats what the agreement SHOULD have been over. I admit, this thread doesn't quite prove that theory...but oh well.

I can understand this thread continuing if it was about political and international views about the US in Iraq and our US troops....but ITS NOT. Its a about a material good. A hobby. thats it.

Stop arguing over petty differences..and lets get to real discussions, you know, like it used to be back in the day. Mini Z vs. Xmod vs. Iwaver vs. ...whatever and such.

Draconious
2004.05.19, 05:37 PM
Ken, not to argue with you but if we brush off his tactics because he says he hopes its not true then were shouldn't be surprised that he continues to use them.

Read my post above, I do not use tactics... but you do...

Folks here don't have a problem telling me they think my posts are inappropriate so why can't people tell Draconious the same thing? Draconious did after all start this discussion back in the New Clones Iwaver thread.

Because your being a friggen fanatic about it! well over half of my posts on this matter are nothing but replies to yours!

Draconious, how would I know this forum is unmoderated and beyond your control to censor? I posted here becuse this forum asks for comments about this web site.
Don't blame me for stumbling on to a forum on the site you can't control. There should not be any forum up here out of the reach of the moderators. Take that up with the administrators.

Because it says so, in the public moderators list... as it did on the old forum.

I can't understand why you are upset Draconious. you obviously posted that subject matter to provoke strong emotions, why are you complaining that it did?

No, I posted them because thats what I was thinking when I posted it... I am not as upset as I am confused why you are so gungho about all this lol...

Go ahead and ban me though there are better sites than this around and a lot of us here get along just fine on those sites when you are not around. Why do you suppose that is?

Only better because I dont post on them ;). Yea that makes them better doesnt it? Are we all too smart for your little games here or something?

machine
2004.05.19, 05:37 PM
Machine you crack me up... now I effect your purchases, yes, sure, ok... whatever...

Such is the life of a mod i suppose. Think about this, i just dropped $$ on a rcp track system from (oh wait it'll be editted out anyways so nm) I paid a few more sheckles but hey whatever right? 1 x wide L and 1 x wide oval do the math dude.

See you don't know when to quit. Forget it dude, it's over. I don't care about your thoughts, what you try to promote, and pretty much what you have to say. Which is too bad, i though this was a decent place to chat with other micro rc enthusists. But i suppose i was incorrect in that.

Man I thought i had already removed the email notifacation.......

Draconious
2004.05.19, 05:47 PM
I dont know when to quit? umm... I quit this a a few weeks ago, but you guys keep posting again... and not just on this forum... I am sure when you guys get to another forum, it will just start all over again there...

Do not take the fact that you have 0 bids on your Iwaver sales against me... It will sell eventualy... there is always some one that buys something...

TJFBryant
2004.05.19, 06:03 PM
Are we done yet??? ANY moderators willing to close this female bitching fest.

I thought guys don't hold grudges and its water under the bridge???
Why are we still going at it??
Personally, I am out of this thread, I want to waste my time arguing over something costructive and intelectually stimulating.

So, I ll see you all on another thread soon...seeya. :rolleyes:

easy
2004.05.19, 07:42 PM
Well, drac it seems to often when I go to a site, even google and do a search for Iwaver I come across you discussing business and legal issues you clearly do not know as much about as you want people to think you do.

You probably do know a lot about Mini Zs so why not stick to what you know and stop posting about the other issues you claim you are so tired of? If you hadn't raised the legal issue in the New Clones Iwaver thread, and I notice you're not denying that any more, This thread and the Clones body of knowledge threads that everyone is objecting to would not exist.

Draconious you also jumped into that X-mod thread after some said the figured the molds were purchased to "correct" everyone and inflame the issue. Another of your typical tactics.

So here is my last question on the matter, everyone see if you can answer it honestly now:

Who included the words illegal and illegitimate in their post first in the New Clones Iwaver thread? Put another way who initiated the legal discussion in that thread?

If you want to be really fair about it read the entire thread and note who makes the posts that bring the conversation back to the legal issue when the discussion was on to other topics each time.

Just reply with your list of post numbers and the member's name. It won't take you long to read through the first 3 pages of post or so, so just do it and answer my question honestly.

Draconious
2004.05.19, 08:18 PM
I think this is about the 6th time I said this to you Easy, I did not "bring up the leagal issues", what the hell does it matter who did?

Maybe it was the first post in that particular thread, but it was not the first post, its not the only thread about the "clones" on this forum... it is a common sense, and commonly known amongs the forumers, it was "forgetten" in that thread so I reminded you (just so you could bitch and moan about it)... that they are not 100% legal... And the word CLONE, kockoff alone brings up leagal issues... And yes I post all over the internet, if your idea of "all over the internet" is just these 2 forums...

PAULANGELO
2004.05.19, 08:38 PM
This is my last words on this thread. Machine, good riddence. you had 32 posts as of me writting this and I can count on one hand how many were constructive. Easy, You are a stalker. You cannot just let go. Drac, you put the clones down. Maybe a little too much, you rbiggest fault here is you voiced your opinion. TJFBryant, I'll be at the CP mini raceway tomorrow night, they put in a RCP track there. I will bring my mini T and you bring your Iwaver (along with house approved mini Z'z) and we can talk shop and leave this crap behind.

arch2b
2004.05.19, 08:43 PM
take me with you...... :rolleyes:

easy
2004.05.19, 08:59 PM
Draconious you did not answer my question, I asked for post numbers and member names only.

You know as well as I do the New Clones Iwaver thread is what this discussion is about. If you go back and check the thread you know you raised the legal issue in that thread, why can't you just admitt it?

I admitt I've pushed this well beyond what anyone wanted to see and I'll accept full responsibility for doing so. I'll also accept the group's judgement on that completely without any complaints whatsoever.

If no one wants to see threads like this now or in the future then the causes need to be addressed and you my friend are one of the bidggest causes of these discussions. Its not you I don't like Draconious its your tactics I don't like.

Draconious, all you need to do is too agree not to ever discuss legal, political or social issues on an RC forum again. That means no jumping in to talk about how molds may have been aquired from or anything else related to the general legality of any clones. Since everyone says they don't want to hear about it any more and your sick of the topic any way can you do that?

If we all agree not to raise the issue again then everyone will be happy and we can move on. But if some of us won't agree never to raise it again in a post then it is sure to raise its ugly head again in the future.

I would also add that if anyone does see the issue raised by a new member or other member that a response to such as this be the only type of response the moderators or any of us would post.

The reply would be addressed to all members in volved and would look something like this:

Easy, Draconious, machine

" The subject of product legality or legitimacy is not to be discussed on this forum, please return to the current discussion subject"

Thank you, Moderator/member.

I know this is basicly what arch2b originally tried to do but he should have specifically named the members he was addressing just to ensure the involvment of all members involved is viewed equally regardless of their status on the forum.

easy
2004.05.19, 09:06 PM
I agree that I will not initiate any discussions on the legality or legitimacy of any product on this form.

Should I see the topic of a product's legality or legitiamcy raised in the thread I will name the members I'm addressing and advise them the legal issue is not to be discussed only.

I will then ask them to return to the current discussion subject and thank them for doing so.

Easy

pHREDD
2004.05.19, 09:17 PM
I have tried to stay out of this and so far i have but i have to put in my 2 cents.

I dont see anything wrong with anything Drac has said or posted. He has a right to his opinion as does everyone else on this forum. It looks like other members are trying to pick a fight with Drac. They just wont let it die and a person really shows their true character by their actions. I have disagreed with Drac, Arch and many other members on this board but it doesnt mean I am right or they are wrong. Im not going to try to make them see things my way....whats the point. I wouldnt want them to try to make me see things their way. I value their opinion good or bad. I hope they would treat me with the same respect.


(I would rather be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt)

my 2 cents

Draconious
2004.05.19, 10:09 PM
Do I realy have to say this a 7th time?

As I have said many times, I may have posted the first word "legal" in that thread, but it is not were it was brought up, nor is who brought it up a worth while debate, or relavent... nor is discussion of such a thing against the forum rules...

It has been part of the general discussion and curiosity of this forum and the whole mini-z online comunity long before that post was made... thus I did NOT bring it up... Just simply calling it a clone, knockoff, or a copy, is asking weather its leagal or not...

So my answer is if you read the last post, "every thread that discusses CLONES"...

And DO NOT TELL ME WHAT I CAN AND CAN NOT POST...

easy
2004.05.20, 12:16 AM
Well Draconious, for the 7th time you are using an incredibly weak justification for not accepting responsibility for raising the legal issue in this thread and bringing the discussion back to the legal issue when it moved away from itseveral times.

For the 7th time this is important because if YOU had not done those things Draconious this discussion would not exist at all. Actually if it weren't for YOU this thread and the title Clones Body Of Knowledge would not exist at all.

What you are basicly saying is this issue that everyone is tired of is an open issue to be raised at any time because it was previously discussed before the Iwaver New clone thread?

Well now I'm confused Draconious. I've already agreed not to initiate any more discussion on this issue. I've even accepted resposibility for pushing this so far. I'll drop it if everyone agrees not to raise it again like I did. But you just said you won't do that. Why do you need to leave this topic open for YOU to discuss when ever it suits YOU at any time if you dislike it so much?

In your next post try to answer the question I've asked you.

easy
2004.05.20, 03:26 AM
Well fellows i'm sure you'll all be glad to know I'm done with this discussion. Having thought about Draconious last post all the points I wanted to see proved have been.

1. Draconious has admitted he initiated the legal discussion in the New clones Iwaver thread.

2. Some of you have agreed that some of the subject matter Draconious posts to support his views is not appropriate in these forums.

3. Draconious considers the legality of clones an open subject to be discussed at anytime simply because it has been discussed before on this forum. As such he will continue to bring it up just as he did in the New Clones Iwaver thread whenever he feels like whether you want to hear it or not.

4. Draconious doesn't want me telling him to stop posting about the legal issues which I can understand since he desn't like me. Really all I did though is what some of you have asked which is to agree to put this topic behind us and keep it about the cars.

Draconious chose to make that request about the source of the request, me, and not about leaving the legal issue behind for good which is what everyone claims they want.

If you, his friends whom he respects do not require Draconious to refrain from discussing the legal issue this kind of thread will come up again any time Draconious provokes someone won't tolerate his unsubstatiated claims or yield to his bullying.

A few final thoughts,

I wonder why the administrator has a forum on this site that is out of reach of the moderators? Is it a coincidence that it happens to be the forum that asks for site feed back?

I also wonder why, if the moderators have the power to edit or remove posts from the other forums on this iste completely why wouldn't they have the power to at least block a member's account even temporarily if the member's behaviour is objectionable in this forum?

Finally, I wonder why Draconious didn't just email the administrator and have my account blocked if he couldn't do it himself instead of arguing with me?

See you around guys and if see Iwavers being discussed on other sites around the web do everyone a favour and keep the legal and political issues out of the discussions on those sites.

sg219
2004.05.20, 08:59 PM
I'm sorry I Don't get the chance to make it over here more often, but after reading the Easy vs. Drac. thread, I had to chime in.

@--Easy, nice going!!! I agree with you about Drac always callin' 911 when he is in trouble and deleting or moving a forum. That right there is really, really, fishy? Why would you move something to reply to it? Why can't a mod get to it? Arch posted in this thread. I think its all an excuse to ease the pressure for Drac, so he can gain his composure and type. He is tired of being critisized and not being right there to reply. Hey!! Thats part of a forum, checking in and getting back when you can, not when you feel like moving a thread!!

As for everyone else, thanks for all your imput and ranting, but I'm outta here. i feel Drac has dug himself a big enough hole, that he no longer requires my help in digging it.

In the last few weeks he has argued with almost everyone in any iWaver thread you can find on the internet!! He has proven that he cannot keep a calm, cool, and collected head when it comes to MODERATING!! Tries to ignite an arguement in every thread. He in supposed to be open minded and impartial to be a moderator, but I fell he is not. Others have said it and backed me up.

Also early in this thread, it was said that he was ganged up on?? Went callin' for help. That is a load of ****!! Well I didn't know any of these people till I got here and the sides were already drawn!! Since my start here I have seen some of the people that are here show up in other forums, and yes we DO get along in them!!


I wish Drac the best of luck on his legal quest to make the International Market run properly!!! :D

Plus, I'd send you a shoval to undig your foot from your mouth, but its a clone. don't want any legal probs removing your foot!! :D


Easy, I'll catch up with you down the road. Peace out pimp? ;)

Good Bye and live long!!!

PAULANGELO
2004.05.20, 09:06 PM
sg219, who the he!! asked you? 6 posts? looks like if you don't post here again, we will not be missing anything. Just when the post is ending, you need to put in your 2 cents. too bad you couldn't afford it. THIS HAS GOT TO END.

sg219
2004.05.20, 09:36 PM
sg219, who the he!! asked you? 6 posts? looks like if you don't post here again, we will not be missing anything. Just when the post is ending, you need to put in your 2 cents. too bad you couldn't afford it. THIS HAS GOT TO END.


I agree with you Totally!! 100%, with all my sweat!! That this has to end!!! :)

But as far as not having 2 cents? I do have it. I just switched my car insurance to Geico!!! :D :D

Plus, I saved on buying an iWaver instead of a Mini-Z...

Draconious
2004.05.20, 10:12 PM
well sg if you wanted it to end, why did you post? You claim I delete posts that are against me? lol I dont recall actualy deleting any ;) please dont acuse me of things I have not done... please dont comment on things you know nothing about... at least read the threads before posting... I try to ignite arguments? umm... your post is just a typical post right?

Right now these guys are just REACHING for things to type so they can have the last word ;) -- I stopped replying a few times, but they have to keep acuseing me of things... cuz they deep down do NOT want this to end... or they would have shut their pie holes a long time ago... every time it quiets down, BOOM one of them post about it again...

Argued with almost every one in an Iwaver thread on the internet, well since there are only two web sites, this one, and Tiny RC, and about three threads between them... that I actualy post on, that must be a very small internet you have access to there... what are you on the moon? Are you sure there isnt some one out there claiming to be me? Can you email me these other forums please?

I have not done any argueing... Ive simply been replying to correct your mis quoted and mis guided and plane stupid and unrelated comments...


THIS THREAD IS TO HERE BY BE CONCIDDRED LOCKED.. NO MORE REPLIES AT ALL, any one posting after this post will have the post deleted... I dont care if its the pope posting about martians landing on earth, its gone...