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View Full Version : Rules Will Change As Racers Get To Creative.


Blackno3
2004.10.20, 06:20 PM
Hereís the deal one racers car was way faster than all the others Monday.
Every one but the winner was complaining if I donít do something than they will not race.

The new rule is if some one has an X-speed that way faster then all the others I will be taking that motor apart to find out why. In the process the motor will be rendered unusable, I guarantee it will be unusable.

So if some one has a motor that they do not want to lose than they better not have that motor in the car on race night. If I do not find anything wrong, like the motor had been opened up or different magnets I will give them a brand new unbroken in motor. If I do find some thing then there will be a pointís deduction as stated in the rules.

Also we will be starting a protest rule so if anyone thinks someone is cheating they can ask me to tear down there motor. If there motor is ok then the one who protests has to buy them a new motor and if the motor is not then they are out a motor.

Also if you have a very fast motor donít think youíll make it to the main with it.

Pro-Z Racing
2004.10.20, 08:08 PM
thats too funny.

Just run hand out motors and stop this madness. engrave the cans paint the endbells and nail polish the tabs for tamper proofing. The cost of the motors should out way the whinning. Just turn in the motors after racing.

Good Luck

Aaronnn
2004.10.20, 08:12 PM
good protest rule but maybe you should also have the protestor compensate further than just a new motor...have them also buy new tires also.......

simply because I would be pissed if I spent the time maintaining my car to go as fast as it possibly could without cheating...and some yah-who (who doesnít even know what lube is) protests my car......

Pro-Z Racing
2004.10.20, 08:27 PM
the standard protesting rule the protester puts up $30 if the fast guy was legal he gets the $30 if the fast guy cheated the protester gets there money back.


2nd all i can assume your looking for is neo magnets. You don't need to tear down a motor to find that out. Just use a gauss meter and check the magnetism through the can. There is a huge difference between stock magnets and neo

solartech
2004.10.20, 10:09 PM
Hmmm you all must be talking about me. Accusing me of cheating. So I should let my motor be torn apart. I won 2 of the past races not every one. Please note others have clocked much faster lap times compaired to me. My laps are very consistant from lap to lap. See for your self. There was never an issue when someone "else" one every single race ,usualy by 2 or more laps, Durring the second winter series in the mod class. But anyways if I am contested and my motor is destoyed and i am only copensated with a new motor i will contest all of the other drivers who have turned much faster laps than me ,,,i know at least three. When i raced 10th scale stock class years ago the contesting rule required $30 to be posted if no cheating was found the accused recived the money not a motor. With your rule any one can accuse some one and you(eric) are liable to suppy a new motor for free. So if some one hass a problem the need to put their money where their mouth is! Or mabey give me a new motor for free mark it or stamp it I will run it on monday and i will win with it.Ok, i will be in saturday if you are intersted. :mad:

Pro-Z Racing
2004.10.20, 10:27 PM
Glad to hear you speak up. Consistancy is Key. Keep it up :D

solartech
2004.10.20, 10:32 PM
Thank you :)

Maxfield
2004.10.21, 02:28 AM
I thought the rule was $50, not $30. Maybe I read that in some ROAR website. But, it seems that if the accused is exonerated, at least they get something out of it. Taking motors in and out is a pain anyway. Though, I do really disapprove of cheaters, especially something as generally good natured as racing palm sized cars.

Personally, I suck as a driver, so this is never a problem for me. But I just started, and one day, I look forward to smoking everyone and getting accused! :rolleyes:

efsee
2004.10.21, 08:23 AM
This sound very familiar to me, as we are always having the same problem at our local races. Usually consistency is the most important factor in racing; however, loosers always try to find some excuse to justify why someone else is always winning. Therefore, we were also in this debate a few weeks ago, but opted that instead of opening up motors or cars to check for FET upgrades, it could be easier to just speed check each car before the finals, just before each racer placed his car on the starting grid, and if a car exceeds the maximum alowed speed, it's auomatically discualified.

We're using the Tamiya speed checker, and have a max. speed limit of 29kph, which is just fine for stock ESC with X-Speed and up to 8T pinion gear.

The speed checker is available for everyone to check their cars and make any adjustments if they are exceeding the speed limit. Usually you just need to make pinion gear changes, unless you have modified FET, where your speed with be above the limit even with 6T.

Well, like everything in life, it may not be perfect, but I think this method has been easier to implement than the whole car checking thing.

pHREDD
2004.10.21, 09:04 AM
efsee, Thats a very good idea. I hadnt thought of trying anything like that. It seems very fair.

El Tigre
2004.10.21, 09:07 AM
Anyone zap their motors? Or batteries? Scott is right about the Gauss meter and handout motors. Thats foolish to take motors apart to check for Neo's, but it wont do much for brushes or altered winds. The rules at our track are pretty laxed and it's frustrating when you are playing by the rules and some guy is passing you on the straights. I got fed up and just started running different motors too, but then it takes something away from a true stock race.

Pro-Z Racing
2004.10.21, 12:09 PM
Speed check is a great idea for stock. We should do that at cortty's track.

The speed checkers are cheaper than hand out motors and much less hassle.

Blackno3
2004.10.21, 12:29 PM
First off I was going to point out how irrelevant every ones opinion is that isnít apart of are local cup car series. Like handout motors if they raced here one a weekly basis they would know that the motors are a pain in the A** to get in and out of an F1 and that we have kids and some adults that race here who are not very mechanically inclined and would be striping out screws along with having other problems.

But then after reading every ones opinions I found a truly great idea. I now realize how great a public forum can be and how important it is to listen to every ones opinions.

Thanks to are friend efsee from EL Salvador we may have found a solution.
I think the Tamiya speed checker idea is awesome. Now all we have to do is figure out what is the best speed one can get out of an X-speed.

Iím going to run this by are racers Monday night and maybe just maybe we will be able to keep everyone happy. It may not be perfect but it may just work.

As for Solartech I spoke to him today and the reason his car was so fast is that the motor is old and just about to crap out. Weíve seen this before, just before an X-speed is ready it die some of them get really fast.

As for me I absolutely HATE TECHING CARS. I just need to find a simple way to keep every one HAPPY.

So OK everyone lets hear the pros and cons of the Tamiya speed checker idea. Please let the opinions fly this public forum stuff works.

arch2b
2004.10.21, 12:40 PM
glad you could find the forum a uselful tool as your opening statement basically is contrary to the very basic function of the forum which is to generate ideas and pass along information and advice which can be a benifit for here, there or anywhere :p they might not be useful, practical sometimes... swaping motors in an out is definately not a viable option, i agree. it's nothign like a racer in terms of ease

be sure to post your findings on the x-speed motors. it could be a good measure for other classes as well.

i am sorry to hear there are complaint and or unhappy people, you tend to have some no matter what ,everywhere. this new series has generated tons of interest and i'm sure spiked f1 sales ;) it can only get better i think :D

i wouldn't want to be the one teching cars either... could be very time consuming and tedious.

PAULANGELO
2004.10.21, 01:40 PM
I think the speed checker is a great idea. only thing now is do we check them before or after the race?? Before you have fresh batteries in it and after the batteries are abused. I think all cars should be tested before the mains. Before Monday, we should test a few cars and see what the highest speed is. then use that as a bench mark. By the way, I know I wasn't the one. I once had the fastest lap but my driving keeps me from competeing (and the fact that i keep rolling :rolleyes: ) and I wasn't there Monday night :p . No one is being accused of cheating. There are some HOT x speeds out there also and they would not be allowed to be used if over the limit on the speed checker.

byebye
2004.10.21, 01:49 PM
First off I was going to point out how irrelevant every ones opinion is that isnít apart of are local cup car series. Like handout motors if they raced here one a weekly basis they would know that the motors are a pain in the A** to get in and out of an F1 and that we have kids and some adults that race here who are not very mechanically inclined and would be striping out screws along with having other problems.

But then after reading every ones opinions I found a truly great idea. I now realize how great a public forum can be and how important it is to listen to every ones opinions.

Thanks to are friend efsee from EL Salvador we may have found a solution.
I think the Tamiya speed checker idea is awesome. Now all we have to do is figure out what is the best speed one can get out of an X-speed.

Iím going to run this by are racers Monday night and maybe just maybe we will be able to keep everyone happy. It may not be perfect but it may just work.

As for Solartech I spoke to him today and the reason his car was so fast is that the motor is old and just about to crap out. Weíve seen this before, just before an X-speed is ready it die some of them get really fast.

As for me I absolutely HATE TECHING CARS. I just need to find a simple way to keep every one HAPPY.

So OK everyone lets hear the pros and cons of the Tamiya speed checker idea. Please let the opinions fly this public forum stuff works.

I remember once suggesting that idea for local GTG's just to keep the competition even. I had a friend that raced dirt track and after every race the winner had to do a compression test to make sure he wasn't cheating. I also remember seeing mazda miata's at Laguna seca get dyno tested before a race. Only a few horses can make a huge difference between winning or losing. If you decide to go with the speed checker and really want to CYA you should have a few judges and maybe test with the highest gearing. Also laptimes and setups could help determine your base speed. I would have alot of fun with this one. Kinda tough half way around the world though. I know that arch2b and myself plan on taking a trip up to run our cars. I still have to get an f-1 and a cup kit. I totally agree that handing out motors before everyrace can be a pain and I don't think that you should have to if you use the speed checker. I do believe the protest rule would really help in the case that someone figures out how to beat the speed checker. I've always wanted one just for test purposes. I hope mine and other suggestions help!

solartech
2004.10.21, 02:14 PM
i just got one ,new in the box today>i am going to try all my motor on it. There are many variables,for examples gearing , batterys , outside tire diameter.I will post results

arch2b
2004.10.21, 02:28 PM
i just got one ,new in the box today>i am going to try all my motor on it. There are many variables,for examples gearing , batterys , outside tire diameter.I will post results
is it just rubber tires? i wouldn't think there would be a big enough variation in tire diameter between kyosho and gpm tires. maybe betwwen slicks and ribbed though... has anyone tried atomic f1 tires?

pHREDD
2004.10.21, 02:41 PM
I have used the atomic on the rears and havent noticed a difference on the speed checker. They do stand a little higher but are a good fix for a enzo that keeps spinning out


:o didnt see the F1 part

arch2b
2004.10.21, 02:57 PM
the atomic f1 tires look a tad taller as well.

Blackno3
2004.10.21, 04:23 PM
We will defiantly be keeping everyone informed on what we come up with.
One thing is that the bench mark will be at the top of what can be achieved with a broken in motor and properly managed batteries.

Are shop has a Tamiya speed checker and Solartech just got one so weíll be doing some side by side comparisons. But this is going to take some time to come up the right way to conduct the tests that everyone can live with including racers showing up from out of town.

Now if Tamiya could just come out with a (he took me out on purpose checker) we could get back to racing and just having fun.

Iím thinking some thing like electric dog collars and sensors on all the cars so when one car hits another one with enough force to take them out the offending racer gets an electric shock.

Now that would be funny to watch, I bet people would pay to see that.
I could build grand stands, sell tickets and have prize money for the winners!!!!
:) :) :)

arch2b
2004.10.21, 04:37 PM
i woudn't mind having to go thru the speed checker test. i doubt i'd offer the locals much competition anyway. i practice trying to avoid causing crashes from lead cars lapping me more than passing them. from the video's though it looks like passing is a chore anyway as the field bunches up in rows in the straights. it look like most of the tie ups happen as someone cuts the turn from too far out thus cutting off lots of other cars instead of taking the smooth race line. it looks very easy to bump from behind though.

has anyone broken anything yet? they look like they take a pretty good beating.

TNB
2004.10.21, 04:48 PM
As for Solartech I spoke to him today and the reason his car was so fast is that the motor is old and just about to crap out. Weíve seen this before, just before an X-speed is ready it die some of them get really fast.

So OK everyone lets hear the pros and cons of the Tamiya speed checker idea. Please let the opinions fly this public forum stuff works.

Now if Tamiya could just come out with a (he took me out on purpose checker) we could get back to racing and just having fun.
I had an X-speed like that. It zoomed and it whined, then it sloooowed down. Regarding the Tamiya Speed Checker. If tires really made a big difference on the TSC, they could all be tested with the stock tires. Everyone should have a set of stock tires and they could just put them on their car prior to speed checking and change them after wards. I sort of hate to make this comment, but soon the batteries may be regulated (if they are not already) and it may end up like a Kyosho sanctioned race though there will probably be someone who complains no matter how much or how little regulation is imposed. Perhaps, when everyone starts complaining that song should be played, "Girls just want to have fun." Then again, someone would probably complain about the song.

arch2b
2004.10.21, 05:01 PM
...Perhaps, when everyone starts complaining that song should be played, "Girls just want to have fun." Then again, someone would probably complain about the song.
i picture mr. crabbs playing a tiny violin :p then again i watch too much sponge bob :rolleyes:

Blackno3
2004.10.21, 05:26 PM
has anyone broken anything yet? They look like they take a pretty good beating.

very very little brakeage has occurred in the first 5 races one or two sets of plastic rims(the back ones) and one or two motor mounts and stock knuckles. Weíve had more than that in just one night of f1 racing. Itís mostly the racers that are still learning to drive RC cars and donít know how to let off the throttle.

that song should be played, "Girls just want to have fun." Then again, someone would probably complain about the song.

I would bet money that some one would complain.

Twenty-Se7en
2004.10.21, 06:11 PM
it's sad that people try and cheat like that but it would freaking piss me off if I was running a fast xspeed that was unmodified and you tore it apart thinking I was cheating. As we all know, xspeeds are not created equally, and you may end up costing yourselves quite a few motors in this process! Just my 2 cents

Blackno3
2004.10.21, 06:35 PM
27 read the entire thread ironically itís only 27 Replies long. Youíll see how the situation worked it self out. Sorry but I canít edit the original post.

solartech
2004.10.21, 10:20 PM
so far in my quick prelimenary test my "fast" x-speed was at 23 kph. Less than the 29 kph previously mentioned.My mr-02 w/the same batterys was 22/23 kpm. My modified micro rs4 was 29kpm. Please note this was just a quik test ,,more to come.... :eek:

Aaronnn
2004.10.21, 11:28 PM
blackno? didnt you mean "relevant" instead of "irrelevant"?

:eek:

or did you really mean irrelevant......if so, sorry i will butt out....

efsee
2004.10.21, 11:44 PM
In case it might be usefull, here are the results of the last test we made at our local races:

Car Type Pinion kmh
1 MR-01 8 25
2 MR-01 7 27
3 MR-01 7 18
4 MR-01 7 25
5 MR-01 7 24
6 MR-01 8 22
7 MR-01 9 25
1 MR-02 8 25
2 MR-02 8 23
3 MR-02 8 29
4 MR-02 7 21
5 MR-02 7 25
6 MR-02 8 28
7 MR-02 8 22
8 MR-02 7 24
9 MR-02 8 24
1 F1 7 27
2 F1 8 27
3 F1 6 20
4 F1 8 25
5 F1 8 25

Results based on all cars with stock ESC and box stock X-Speed engines, with maximum 1.2V batteries. Only factor we did not consider which makes a difference is the number of teeth on the differential gear (42, 41, 40). However, I would say most cars had the stock 42T gear.

Twenty-Se7en
2004.10.22, 01:28 AM
In case it might be usefull, here are the results of the last test we made at our local races:

Car Type Pinion kmh
1 MR-01 8 25
2 MR-01 7 27
3 MR-01 7 18
4 MR-01 7 25
5 MR-01 7 24
6 MR-01 8 22
7 MR-01 9 25
1 MR-02 8 25
2 MR-02 8 23
3 MR-02 8 29
4 MR-02 7 21
5 MR-02 7 25
6 MR-02 8 28
7 MR-02 8 22
8 MR-02 7 24
9 MR-02 8 24
1 F1 7 27
2 F1 8 27
3 F1 6 20
4 F1 8 25
5 F1 8 25

Results based on all cars with stock ESC and box stock X-Speed engines, with maximum 1.2V batteries. Only factor we did not consider which makes a difference is the number of teeth on the differential gear (42, 41, 40). However, I would say most cars had the stock 42T gear.
I would say "wow that's quite the difference for cars that are similar in performace parts" but i've never trusted that damn speed checker and it's been proven wrong so many times that it's not worth using in my opinion.

If they were (or possibily) are actual numbers, then I feel bad for the people with the slower xspeeds... quality control on those motors really suck

solartech
2004.10.22, 07:41 AM
In case it might be usefull, here are the results of the last test we made at our local races:

Car Type Pinion kmh
1 MR-01 8 25
2 MR-01 7 27
3 MR-01 7 18
4 MR-01 7 25
5 MR-01 7 24
6 MR-01 8 22
7 MR-01 9 25
1 MR-02 8 25
2 MR-02 8 23
3 MR-02 8 29
4 MR-02 7 21
5 MR-02 7 25
6 MR-02 8 28
7 MR-02 8 22
8 MR-02 7 24
9 MR-02 8 24
1 F1 7 27
2 F1 8 27
3 F1 6 20
4 F1 8 25
5 F1 8 25

Results based on all cars with stock ESC and box stock X-Speed engines, with maximum 1.2V batteries. Only factor we did not consider which makes a difference is the number of teeth on the differential gear (42, 41, 40). However, I would say most cars had the stock 42T gear.
I would say that there was some big variations,were the all legal?

solartech
2004.10.22, 07:43 AM
hey by the way who offers differnt size spur gears?

efsee
2004.10.22, 07:44 AM
In my opinion, the Speed Checker does it's job pretty well for comparison purposes. I would say this difference between cars with similar performance parts just comes to show that there's alot of people who don't care enough for their cars performance. I think that properly breaking-in a motor makes a difference, and most important, using well conditioned batteries. A good set of batteries can make all the differenceÖ

mini-z racing
2004.10.22, 11:22 PM
yeah who makes diffrent sized spur gears? I know mega tech makes one but it is for there diff i think. ;)

efsee
2004.10.23, 12:37 AM
I know GPM makes 42T, 41T and 40T gears for their both types of differentials: the 6 ball bearing gear and the 12 ball bearing gear. I just don't know where you can find them or if the 6 ball bearing can fit the Kyosho differential, but maybe the shop here can get them if you ask David.

solartech
2004.10.23, 10:21 PM
with a new motor with i was able to turn 33 kph with a nine tooth in my cup car.31 with an 8 tooth.My other motor in question was only turning a 24kph with an 8 tooth pinion.Well it seems the new motor is faster. I dont think top speed will matter as much on the short track, but we will see. I think the batterys and plastic rims along with driving play a more important role.

disruptor10
2004.10.24, 09:38 PM
Well i know you all dont want to hear this but every local race or national race i've ever been too there has been a protest rule in effect and car's were Teched after the race was over and thats the national standard so why not stick with it ! The (put your money where your mouth is )protest rule is good.....keeping a fresh motor in the car is good so i hope someone protests me every week. The bottom line is that it's ERIC's track and what he says goes so we will see tomorrow night my friends..remember it's a hobby for FUN ! your results dont really proove anything,Every 1/10th scale electric motor i have is totally diffrent. I say we should be looking for marks on the tabs and checking the magnets and be done with it and if ERIC does'nt feel right doin it i'll be the one to do it ....IM A GOOD BAD GUY...sweet dreams ..see you all on the battlefield tomorrow night !
and by the way if you know of a team driver weather it be Trinity <putnam or whomever ask them how many times they got a bad motor compared to how many times they got a good one and they'll tell you 80% of the time they got crap,mass produced $3.00 to make motors are just that way so we all have to deal with it.WORK ON THE HANDLING ,YOU'LL BE WAY AHEAD OF THE GAME,THAT'S WHAT IT ALL ABOUT ! Just my unwanted .02 cents .....Big Dave race Director extrordinaire !

mini-z racing
2004.10.24, 10:01 PM
3 bucks for a 10th scale motor, now thats what i call profit ;) see ya tomarrow

solartech
2004.10.24, 10:29 PM
Well i know you all dont want to hear this but every local race or national race i've ever been too there has been a protest rule in effect and car's were Teched after the race was over and thats the national standard so why not stick with it ! The (put your money where your mouth is )protest rule is good.....keeping a fresh motor in the car is good so i hope someone protests me every week. The bottom line is that it's ERIC's track and what he says goes so we will see tomorrow night my friends..remember it's a hobby for FUN ! your results dont really proove anything,Every 1/10th scale electric motor i have is totally diffrent. I say we should be looking for marks on the tabs and checking the magnets and be done with it and if ERIC does'nt feel right doin it i'll be the one to do it ....IM A GOOD BAD GUY...sweet dreams ..see you all on the battlefield tomorrow night !
and by the way if you know of a team driver weather it be Trinity <putnam or whomever ask them how many times they got a bad motor compared to how many times they got a good one and they'll tell you 80% of the time they got crap,mass produced $3.00 to make motors are just that way so we all have to deal with it.WORK ON THE HANDLING ,YOU'LL BE WAY AHEAD OF THE GAME,THAT'S WHAT IT ALL ABOUT ! Just my unwanted .02 cents .....Big Dave race Director extrordinaire !
Hey my results were just for comparison.My point is that my motor in question was a lot slower than the new one off eric shelf.My old moter was hiting at 24kph my new one hit around 29kph. Hey i am down for put your money where your mouth is! Free motors is good but you know what peaple will just complain and not put up any $$$$.I can make a new motor faster than a good old one. All you need is a good brake it in and oil it. Its hard to cheat when you are limited to the stock esc. A modified motor will burn up a stock fet. A lower wind than an x speed would definetly be harmfull.....Hey like i said we need a drivers meeting for this topic. I am open for anything as ling as every one agrees. I have even mentioned adding weight tho the a-main winners car!. Just remember I have only one 1 more race than you. And andrew would have finished close to me if his car counted all his laps :) :) The short track will be a differnt story :)

disruptor10
2004.10.25, 12:30 AM
phil , Im not the one that did any complaining about anything.....all i'm saying is that let eric check what he checks and have the protest rule for those who see fit to use it. There will always be talk about the guy who wins every week in any hobby ,I know i've won 1/10th scale gearbox trucks at Ken's 5 weeks in a row and no one no matter what i tell them to make them as fast as me and i'm sure they all think i'm cheating. my truck has been teched several times and i beg em to rip apart the motor but we go by whatever the tech man or shop owner dictates and thats that. i know what the specs say and all that but you'll always have people who thing your illegal when in all actuallity they need to work on there driving and setup skills. Dont sweat it kid,you would'nt have one all those times if i could drive ...LOL

solartech
2004.10.25, 09:01 AM
:) see you tonight

PoorZDriver
2005.01.06, 05:01 PM
Hmmm you all must be talking about me. Accusing me of cheating. So I should let my motor be torn apart. I won 2 of the past races not every one. Please note others have clocked much faster lap times compaired to me. My laps are very consistant from lap to lap. See for your self. There was never an issue when someone "else" one every single race ,usualy by 2 or more laps, Durring the second winter series in the mod class. But anyways if I am contested and my motor is destoyed and i am only copensated with a new motor i will contest all of the other drivers who have turned much faster laps than me ,,,i know at least three. When i raced 10th scale stock class years ago the contesting rule required $30 to be posted if no cheating was found the accused recived the money not a motor. With your rule any one can accuse some one and you(eric) are liable to suppy a new motor for free. So if some one hass a problem the need to put their money where their mouth is! Or mabey give me a new motor for free mark it or stamp it I will run it on monday and i will win with it.Ok, i will be in saturday if you are intersted. :mad:

Phil, your car is really fast... and i know it isnt the motor... soem are just faster than others, and i know of a couple that will beat the pants off of you with the same motor too. skill is a big deal at that track, HUGE even... I have heard rumors about out of town guys that will make all of the local fast guys look silly with similar set ups, i just cant wait to see these guys drive

solartech
2005.01.08, 08:13 PM
Phil, your car is really fast... and i know it isnt the motor... soem are just faster than others, and i know of a couple that will beat the pants off of you with the same motor too. skill is a big deal at that track, HUGE even... I have heard rumors about out of town guys that will make all of the local fast guys look silly with similar set ups, i just cant wait to see these guys drive
this was about my cup car , not my iwaiver. And at the time other guys had a few faster lap times even faster then I ever had. But the differnce was my lap times were consistantly somewhat fast , lap after lap. Not a few good ones then some bad. Just the same lap after lap.

PoorZDriver
2005.01.08, 11:41 PM
this was about my cup car , not my iwaiver. And at the time other guys had a few faster lap times even faster then I ever had. But the differnce was my lap times were consistantly somewhat fast , lap after lap. Not a few good ones then some bad. Just the same lap after lap.


right on... if i waver does an F1, i will get into the cup car jazz

i will lose my pants in the race however, and love every second of it