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View Full Version : Club/Commercial tracks. Which One ??


Zrc
2004.11.13, 12:21 PM
Much has been said about some of the track systems on the market but most of the comments seem to be directed at the "home" user. So far RCP is the apparent first choice for a variety of good reasons. But how about for Club or Commercial use?? Many of you out there are part of a club, go to the local commercial track or even travel to attend bigger races.
What are the aspects you look for??
What surfaces do you prefer and why??
Do you like more "realistic"(grass,buildings,realistic layout) tracks or more generic "functional" tracks(do the job well but very few asthetics).
When you walk in to a club or commercial track setting...what makes you say "WOW" and what would turn you off ??
What size lanes do you feel are best suited to club/commercial use??
What size track (overall dimensions) would be best suited for club/commercial??
Do you prefer a ground level track or one raised from the floor ??
With these questions in mind(and others you may come up with), what track systems do you think offer a club or commercial operator the greatest benefits ?? Don't rule out ANY track type IE : asphalt, concrete, carpet, modular(RCP, Lakeshore,Etc...), Tar paper, Wood, ETC, ETC........
Try to keep things civil !! What you guy's say could be important to myself and others who may take the risk of investing in this hobby and providing more places to race. Thanks and I'm looking forward to your comments.

davkin
2004.11.13, 02:22 PM
All I can say, is if I could build a permanent track it wouldn't be made from foam mats or carpet. Latex coated wood sounds promising. I would also add the little details to make it more realistic, but I'm a scale modeler so I may not represent the majority on that one. I like a raised track, but a raised track limits the size somewhat since you need to be able to reach into the middle. I'd go with 3' lanes for road courses, maybe 4' for ovals. If the track is on the ground level it needs to be made durable enough to not be affected by people walking on it or accidently falling on it. IMO, the bigger the track the better! I dream of having a huge permanent track with 3' to 4' lanes and so long even a modded car would take 25 to 30 sec. to complete a lap, yet have plenty of straights and high speed corners as well as the slow sections. Some banking in places and elevations changes would somehow be built into it. Wouldn't a scale Laguna corkscew just be cool as heck? Well, that's my dream track anyways. :D

David

imxlr8ed
2004.11.13, 04:14 PM
I run a club of about 18 drivers, the track I built for the club can be seen at:
http:www.dorksonwheels.com

It's not permanent, but it looks good. You can see more pics of it on my minizworld member album, pg. 13.

TNB
2004.11.13, 05:33 PM
Much has been said about some of the track systems on the market but most of the comments seem to be directed at the "home" user. So far RCP is the apparent first choice for a variety of good reasons. But how about for Club or Commercial use?? Many of you out there are part of a club, go to the local commercial track or even travel to attend bigger races.
What are the aspects you look for??
What surfaces do you prefer and why??
First of all, I own various types of R/Cs (gasoline, nitro, & electric) of various scales or R/Cs (1/4 scale and smaller) and have raced on various surfaces (dirt, asphalt, ozite, etc). I've also attended a few of the Kyosho sanctioned Mini-Z races--all of which were held on RCP Tracks. This includes 2003 and 2004 regional qualifiers and nationals. The local commercial track was a 4L RCP Track. However, I also own one RCP Mini-Tile 96 (30cm tiles), a 6L RCP track, an Oval RCP Track, and blank tiles and off road expansion packs for both the 50cm track and 30cm track.

Although I think it is quite obvious, my Z track preference is an RCP Track. First of all, an RCP Track is "dynamic". By dynamic, I mean it is always changing and evolving. RCP Tracks are also easy to set up, take down, and store. With the combined RCP Tracks that I own, I can probably make 100's of layouts and only a few are shown in Gallery TNB. I also plan to upload more photos since three of us were running on my track today—We set it up, we ran on it, and it is now stored until the next run. Have you checked my RCP Track Layouts album out yet? Go ahead; take a peak if you don’t believe the RC collection I own or the amount of track. In addition, RCP Tracks has been testing other surface tiles and some are already available, i.e. “rain” and off-road tiles.

Do you like more "realistic"(grass,buildings,realistic layout) tracks or more generic "functional" tracks(do the job well but very few asthetics).
When you walk in to a club or commercial track setting...what makes you say "WOW" and what would turn you off ??
Quite frankly, when it comes to racing most racers I know don't give a damn about the freaking decor as long as the track wasn't next to a nitro boat pond. A search of MZR would have brought those complaints up since there was a nitro boat pond next to the track at 2004 RCX / Kyosho US-Mini-Z-Cup finals. The main goal is to "win" not stop and smell the grass or look at the figures. Sure, I add a lot of decor to my RCP Track as the photos in Gallery TNB will show; however, racing and winning has nothing to do with the track surroundings. As far as that goes, if I can "dress up" an RCP Track each time I set it up, so can anyone else.

What size lanes do you feel are best suited to club/commercial use??
What size track (overall dimensions) would be best suited for club/commercial??
Do you prefer a ground level track or one raised from the floor ??

If six cars are going to be racing at the same time, the track should be at least six cars wide. Since you apparently don't want to read past threads and if you are truely interested in non-bias responses, you may want to check out the ROAR rules regarding other scale cars. There are detailed sections on track widths and sizes. You could then try to scale it down, but the bottom line is that the faster the cars the more room they need to turn and move. Consequently, if you raise the track off the ground, how much room do you think is needed to drive a Mini-Z between 20-30mph if not more? Have you considered checking Kyosho's USA website? If and when you do, you will also notice numerous racers standing on chairs or crates even though the RCP Track is on the floor. If you raise the track, how do you think they would feel? I know how I would feel since I raced in Palmdale, California on an elevated track and I stood on a chair along with numerous others. Myself, I think it is stupid to raise a Mini-Z track considering how many other scale tracks have a driver's stand which is raised above the track itself. A raised track may also limit the configuration.

With these questions in mind(and others you may come up with), what track systems do you think offer a club or commercial operator the greatest benefits ?? Don't rule out ANY track type IE : asphalt, concrete, carpet, modular(RCP, Lakeshore,Etc...), Tar paper, Wood, ETC, ETC........
Try to keep things civil !! What you guy's say could be important to myself and others who may take the risk of investing in this hobby and providing more places to race. Thanks and I'm looking forward to your comments.
One of the biggest gripes I hear and read about tracks doesn't really have anything to do with the track surface itself since many racers will complain anyway. However, many do complain about the barriers--too hard, too sticky, blah, blah. Just read the posts. The bottom line is that racers need to stay off the rails. To me that means those particular racers either need to slow down since it appears that they cannot handle that speed or don't have their R/C set up properly. If you are serious about running a race, invest in a good timing system and if you want to attract more racers, purchase an RCP Track. Why do I write that? It's simple. Kyosho sells RCP Tracks, Radio Shack sells RCP Tracks, MZR sells RCP Tracks, Great Planes sells RCP Tracks... This means that more and more people can purchase RCP Tracks, practice on them, race on them, and even join them together.

Edit: Because I can't spell and am terrible at proof reading sometimes, but I do try to read the posts and race the Zs.

46u
2004.11.13, 05:34 PM
RCP track.
:D

Zrc
2004.11.13, 07:20 PM
TNB, I'm quite sure there have been various threads asking about "this" type of track or "that" type of track. My intent was to address as many of those questions as possible in ONE informative thread but LIMITED TO CLUB AND COMMERCIAL applications. FYI...ROAR may suggest certain track and barrier dimensions but they are not so distint as to say " a track must allow for 6 cars to run side by side". ROAR basically suggests a lane width of 8ft minimum and a barrier height of 6 inches minimum. These figures are suggested....I have seen many tracks with smaller dimensions and many with larger.
Your comments are appreciated ! I'm hoping those with experience on a variety of track surfaces will respond. Likewise, I'm hoping those who could envision a "perfect" track will respond. RCP is obviously a well liked track surface but as I have found with 1/10 scale drivers.....just because it's widely used does not necessarily mean it's the only choice or that it fit's everyones needs or wishes. If that were the case, I'd be using plain old 2 inch PVC as my track system rather than the Road Rails I currently have.
Keep those comments coming guy's!! I'm sure some of you have been on some incredible tracks.......The pictures I've seen prove that SO share your thoughts.

TNB
2004.11.13, 07:44 PM
FYI...ROAR may suggest certain track and barrier dimensions but they are not so distint as to say " a track must allow for 6 cars to run side by side". ROAR basically suggests a lane width of 8ft minimum and a barrier height of 6 inches minimum. These figures are suggested....I have seen many tracks with smaller dimensions and many with larger.
Unless you are considering the owner/operator opt out provision, Appendix A to the ROAR Rules lists "Minimum track width" for each class of R/C under ROAR. Some classes may have a minimum of 8 feet, but some other class are less (1/12 electric on-road 4-cell) or more (1/10 electric on-road (10 feet)).

http://www.roarracing.com/rules/pdfs/2004rules.pdf

And although Kyosho Mini-Zs are not regulated by ROAR, my point is still the same and that is an R/C needs enough room to "drive/race" and a faster R/C needs even a larger track. Even the examples I listed above show that ROAR sets the minimun track width for a 4 cell lower (compare the 6-cell which is 8 feet).

It also appears that you missed my point of RCP Tracks being available too. As far as that goes, most people are near a street or a parking lot and simple dots can be used instead of that PVC/Road Rail system I hear so many complaints about each time some racer breaks his R/C.

Zrc
2004.11.13, 09:15 PM
imxlr8ed, nice track !! Is that carpet, modular or ...? davkin, I know that daydream !! My dream track is pretty nice too but since I'm still learning about the various surfaces, the picture keeps changing. On the other hand...that could be because I forgot to take my A.D.D medication !! :D

Calgary_Racer
2004.11.15, 12:03 PM
What surfaces do you prefer and why??
I have tried several surfaces and personally I prefer the ones that give you a kind of "realistic" medium / low grip. For instance a real racecar (Nascar, F1, etc) has some level of "spinning wheels" when starting (after a pit stop, for instance). Or it is able to “make donuts”, or to slow down on a turn not because the driver cannot handle the speed but because of the intrinsic laws of physics (yes, even in wide ovals). Basically if the surface does not allow that behavior then it won’t feel real and, for my taste, less challenging. In the other hand, if your public is a casual, inexperienced driver, you might want to have a “high grip track”.

Do you like more "realistic"(grass,buildings,realistic layout) tracks or more generic "functional" tracks(do the job well but very few asthetics).
Again, if you want to attract new customers I think that a nice looking track would help. Also, it would make sense since the cars themselves are kind of “very detailed models”. But, once more, it depends on your public.

When you walk in to a club or commercial track setting...what makes you say "WOW" and what would turn you off ??
I guess my previous answer applies here as well. A nice looking track it is always a nice track. And not only the track itself should be attractive. The facility in a whole should be inviting. I guess that “real racers” might not care too much about it but they will agree that a certain atmosphere should exist.

What size lanes do you feel are best suited to club/commercial use??
What size track (overall dimensions) would be best suited for club/commercial??
3 feet sounds about right. Also, pay attention to the walls. You do not want cars short cutting the track or flying out of it. At the same time “a too tall rail” might not allow to see the cars properly in some places. Around 1 to 2 inches should work fine.

Do you prefer a ground level track or one raised from the floor ??
A raised one looks nicer but it might not be very practical. A ground level one, in the other hand, provides a good view of the track but might tempt some people to walk on it plus it might get some extra dust. I would go with a “not too raised one” (1 – 2 feet?) with some at least equally elevated place for drivers.

With these questions in mind(and others you may come up with), what track systems do you think offer a club or commercial operator the greatest benefits ?? Don't rule out ANY track type IE : asphalt, concrete, carpet, modular(RCP, Lakeshore,Etc...), Tar paper, Wood, ETC, ETC........
Try to keep things civil !! What you guy's say could be important to myself and others who may take the risk of investing in this hobby and providing more places to race. Thanks and I'm looking forward to your comments.
A modular track is a desirable option. You can change the layout as well as the width of the track, surface for some sections, etc. Sadly, all existing modular tracks I have seen so far do not look as nice and realistic as custom-made tracks. You might be able to come with some solution that takes the best from both worlds: a nice looking track that can be modified or that has more than one layout overlapped into it.

ruknd@aol.com
2004.11.15, 12:18 PM
If its permanemt I'd like to see some ups and down..some banked and off camber turns. Maybe wider and narrower in spots and a long straightwwa with lots of turns after and before it. The drivers are should be raised and there needs to be adequate pit ares for people to tune and work on their cars.

TNB
2004.11.15, 01:57 PM
A modular track is a desirable option. You can change the layout as well as the width of the track, surface for some sections, etc. Sadly, all existing modular tracks I have seen so far do not look as nice and realistic as custom-made tracks.
Can you upload some photos? I'd like to see some of these tracks that you have seen since I'm always adding little things to my dynamic track and configurations.

RCPMini-z
2004.11.15, 02:49 PM
I believe for a commercial or club track you need to install a surface with the best grip you can find. Your track will be visited by people of all skill levels and you need to have something available to meet everyone’s needs. It is much harder to set your car up to grip on a surface that offers poor or medium grip characteristics than it is to make adjustments on a grip surface to allow your car to slide or drift around the turns. Most gripy surfaces that I have tested still require a soft rubber tire in order to run tight around the turns. Installing hard or stock tires on your car, will allow you to slide as much as you want, even on the gripiest surfaces.

In order to obtain what some call a “realistic” feel on a gripy track, all you need to do is leave the stock tires on or set your car up with harder tires. It’s that simple. Don’t be mislead to think that a high grip track will not allow you to slide around the curves or spin donuts like the real cars. Having a grip surface in your store or club will give those with modified cars a choice to run fast and tight and will also allow those who want a more “realistic” feel, to run hard tires and slide all day long.

This way you have the best of both worlds.

Calgary_Racer
2004.11.15, 02:49 PM
Can you upload some photos? I'd like to see some of these tracks that you have seen since I'm always adding little things to my dynamic track and configurations.
TNB,
I suspect that you, as a very active member, might have seen them all already. I am talking mostly about those European (from Sweden, Norway, Germany, etc) and Asian (Hong Kong, japan, Malaysia, etc) tracks that have "real radius" turns, some turf and, in some cases, some trees, little houses, etc.
If I find one that is particularly cool I will post it as an example.

lightfighter
2004.11.15, 03:00 PM
If I was building a track for the people I would make it rasied of the ground........or at least the portion where the drivers sit.

RCPMini-z
2004.11.15, 03:14 PM
If I was building a track for the people I would make it rasied of the ground........or at least the portion where the drivers sit.

I agree, the club and store tracks that I have seen that are sitting on some sort of platform look the best. Having a drivers stand that is higher than the track would be suggested, since it gives the drivers a better view.

If your using a platform, it is best to have a plan to marshall cars that flip over. Usually a long stick or pole will do the job. It would be good to have one pole with a hook or similar end, just in case a car will not move and needs to be picked up off the track.

It is also nice to have a pit lane that the drivers could pull into, off the traffic lane, when they have finished their run.

lightfighter
2004.11.15, 03:24 PM
One of those grabber reach things is nice for inside the track........the pit lane thing should be a must..........you don't notice it till you hit a parked car how cool a pit lane is

TNB
2004.11.15, 03:43 PM
TNB,
I suspect that you, as a very active member, might have seen them all already. I am talking mostly about those European (from Sweden, Norway, Germany, etc) and Asian (Hong Kong, japan, Malaysia, etc) tracks that have "real radius" turns, some turf and, in some cases, some trees, little houses, etc.
If I find one that is particularly cool I will post it as an example.
Yes, I've seen photos of those overseas tracks though I have never seen them in person. I think that some of the Overland tracks look pretty neat and do look fun to drive on though they seem permanent, non-configurable and look very heavy. Of course, some of the buildings I'm using are made in Germany and well built, though pricy. I'm also thinking about getting some green "turf" to lay under my track to go with the trees, bridge, etc. that I already use in my layouts.

TNB
2004.11.15, 03:50 PM
One of those grabber reach things is nice for inside the track........the pit lane thing should be a must..........you don't notice it till you hit a parked car how cool a pit lane is
I add a pit lane every now and then. ;) However, some of the photos I've seen with cars wedged in between the wooden or plastic rails look like it would take more than a grabber "pole" to reach and get a stuck car out from a raised track if the track didn't have any room to walk between the lanes and turn marshal. Basically, it look liked a job for human hands.

arch2b
2004.11.15, 04:30 PM
One of those grabber reach things is nice for inside the track........the pit lane thing should be a must..........you don't notice it till you hit a parked car how cool a pit lane is
how true :p i always include a pit lane in my layouts

Calgary_Racer
2004.11.15, 04:35 PM
Yes, I've seen photos of those overseas tracks though I have never seen them in person. I think that some of the Overland tracks look pretty neat and do look fun to drive on though they seem permanent, non-configurable and look very heavy. Of course, some of the buildings I'm using are made in Germany and well built, though pricy. I'm also thinking about getting some green "turf" to lay under my track to go with the trees, bridge, etc. that I already use in my layouts.
The other day, in the slot car section of my local hobby store I saw some buildings that might look pretty good on a Mini-Z track.
Scalextric has some made of cardboard that might not look very nice from a close distance but might be quite nice from further distance.
Check it here:
http://www.scalextricusa.com/scalekit_building.asp
There was some other brand as well (Carrera or SCX, I do not remember) that has kind of the same buildings but made of plastic.
I hope it helps!

Twenty-Se7en
2004.11.15, 04:44 PM
pretty tiny scale on those buildings, if they were 1/24 then i'd buy a dozen in a heartbeat

wcrotty
2004.11.15, 04:49 PM
Well I was in the same dilemma that you are having when we first opened our hobby shop. My home basement track was a wood track with grit paint on the surface and a couple other guys had the same surface. So we started off buying plywood to put on the concrete floor to paint with the grit paint. Well that was ok for about three months. The surface just was not consistent. Slippery spots and super traction spots. Then the groove started to ware out. For new racers that need lots of practice it just didn't work out. It was hard enough for them to learn how to drive a RC car.

So at the time the next best surface was Ozite carpet. We bought the Ozite carpet and glued it over the painted grit surface. The Ozite worked well but for mini-zs with rubber tires it just wasn't enough traction for the light cars. Then we tried foam tires for the mini-z cars but getting the good foam power tiers was a pain and for a while we couldn't get them. We raced on the Ozite for about 2 years before getting the tires ended up being a problem.

Then when the kyosho cup came out and the RCP track was released i replaced my basement track with the RCP track for practicing. I liked the track so much i put it in the shop and everyone loves the surface. We are back to running rubber tires on the mini-zs and foams on the x-rays. Every week we change the track to a different configuration to train our drivers to adjust to different layouts. Everyone’s skill level is just getting higher and higher.

I would have saved a lot of money if the RCP track was available back in the beginning.

I would say the best surface to race on is the RCP track surface and would recommend it for any commercial place. Racers will also want to buy the track from the shop so they can practice at home so they can get an edge over other racers.

Calgary_Racer
2004.11.15, 05:01 PM
I believe for a commercial or club track you need to install a surface with the best grip you can find. Your track will be visited by people of all skill levels and you need to have something available to meet everyone’s needs. It is much harder to set your car up to grip on a surface that offers poor or medium grip characteristics than it is to make adjustments on a grip surface to allow your car to slide or drift around the turns. Most gripy surfaces that I have tested still require a soft rubber tire in order to run tight around the turns. Installing hard or stock tires on your car, will allow you to slide as much as you want, even on the gripiest surfaces.

In order to obtain what some call a “realistic” feel on a gripy track, all you need to do is leave the stock tires on or set your car up with harder tires. It’s that simple. Don’t be mislead to think that a high grip track will not allow you to slide around the curves or spin donuts like the real cars. Having a grip surface in your store or club will give those with modified cars a choice to run fast and tight and will also allow those who want a more “realistic” feel, to run hard tires and slide all day long.

This way you have the best of both worlds.
It makes sense. This is the kind of explanation that I have been waiting for a long time.
How about the experienced drivers? Do they like a high grip surface as well? Do they run on hard tires or at the end everyone goes for very soft ones?
Do you then recommend a gripy oval for newbies and ideally a second more challenging track for experts?

wcrotty
2004.11.15, 05:13 PM
I would recommend the same track for both experts and beginners. Just stack the racing heats so the beginners race with other beginners and experts race with other experts. As the beginners get better bump them up into the better heats.

The last thing beginner and novice drivers want to do is get in the way of the experts. Most of the race they just end up trying to move over and not concentrating on driving better.

lightfighter
2004.11.15, 05:47 PM
you driving style effects your tire selection also....... 2 expert drivers will have the two different setups on thier cars that translate to door to door racing on the track

TNB
2004.11.15, 06:55 PM
Scalextric has some made of cardboard that might not look very nice from a close distance but might be quite nice from further distance...There was some other brand as well (Carrera or SCX, I do not remember) that has kind of the same buildings but made of plastic.
I have a few Fly & Carrera R/C conversions in Gallery TNB as well as Scalextric tire barriers/signs/slot cars and even the pit crew with an F1. However, most of the buildings I've seen are the wrong scale. I may make a few soon since I'll be checking into a somewhat temp-to permanent place for my track tomorrow. I'm not sure how long I will get to use the place but it is close to me, is two stories, has a loft, gated parking and open parking, been refaced, has train murals on the outside, etc. It would actually make a nice little hobby shop or Z place.

wcrotty,
Bill, I'm glad we finally got to read a post from an expert Mini-Z driver and two-time national Kyosho Mini-Z-Cup champion in several classes about his view on ozite and an RCP Track. And though you didn't mention it specifically, it's my opinion that "concentrating on driving better" is more important to a new racer than decor though perhaps, not from an operator's stand point if the sole idea is to try and attract "new" customers to small-scale. Myself, why not set up a fantastic looking train set in a hobby shop to attract "new" train customers and possibly new Zrs. I've even been looking into a locomotive just to use with my layouts. :)

46u
2004.11.15, 07:34 PM
I have tried several surfaces and personally I prefer the ones that give you a kind of "realistic" medium / low grip. For instance a real racecar (Nascar, F1, etc) has some level of "spinning wheels" when starting (after a pit stop, for instance). Or it is able to “make donuts”, or to slow down on a turn not because the driver cannot handle the speed but because of the intrinsic laws of physics (yes, even in wide ovals). Basically if the surface does not allow that behavior then it won’t feel real and, for my taste, less challenging. In the other hand, if your public is a casual, inexperienced driver, you might want to have a “high grip track”.

If you want to slip and slide on RCP track all you have to do is put harder tires on. On my F1’s I run 30 rear and 40 front and I get what is realistic with a little slipping but not to much as real F1’s do not have much slipping but at take off like in the pits. With traction control on the real F1 you should not have much slipping at the start of the race or something is not set right on it. If you want more you can always go harder on the tires! I have no problem in cutting donuts and on some of my MR 01’s the tires are so hard I can hardly turn a corner with out spinning out. So with RCP you can have your cake and eat it to. :D

Zrc
2004.11.15, 10:26 PM
Great comments folks ! Thanks and keep em' coming. Has anyone ever raced on a concrete surface ?? I was approached by the owner of a local roller skating rink who heard about our needs from a fellow club member. His floor is smooth concrete but has been finished with a clear coat with some type of non skid agent added to it. I'm sure some of you have roller skated on this type of floor. Any thoughts?? What type of portable barrier / track marker system could be used ??

Calgary_Racer
2004.11.16, 10:32 AM
If you want to slip and slide on RCP track all you have to do is put harder tires on. On my F1’s I run 30 rear and 40 front and I get what is realistic with a little slipping but not to much as real F1’s do not have much slipping but at take off like in the pits. With traction control on the real F1 you should not have much slipping at the start of the race or something is not set right on it. If you want more you can always go harder on the tires! I have no problem in cutting donuts and on some of my MR 01’s the tires are so hard I can hardly turn a corner with out spinning out. So with RCP you can have your cake and eat it to. :D
Well, as I said before, it makes sense that harder tires gives you some sliding. Still, I believe, most people in a race will go for softer compounds -as in real F1- and that driving sensation won't be the same. But I understand what it is proposed.
By the way, traction control is not longer allowed at the start of a F1 race -it has to be mechanical and controlled by the driver-.

TNB
2004.11.16, 11:59 AM
It's NEVER going to be the "same sensation" since you are driving a remote control car. Perhaps, you should try Carts/Champ Cars. I know there are driving schools here as well cart tracks, both large and small. Even some of the local Champ Car drivers drive the smaller carts. Then again, I know one of them has a Kyosho Kanai 2 buggy and got very excited when I mentioned an FG 1/5 scale F1.

ruknd@aol.com
2004.11.16, 01:43 PM
Two other factors to consider is track maintenance and changability. You need a durable surface so it won't wear from constant use and in the event an area is worn you want easy quick repair so as the track wont be unoperable for a long period of time.

Also, changability in design is nice too so people wont get bored of the same track day in and day out. Also, a track should be changed for big races so the locals dont dominate because they know the track.

Oner problem that has recently been brough to my attention is the incapatibility of various fatigue mats. If one tile gets nicked and has to be replaced you want to make sure you can get more. Maybe RCP would solve this problem as spares are always available.

Calgary_Racer
2004.11.16, 02:49 PM
It's NEVER going to be the "same sensation" since you are driving a remote control car. Perhaps, you should try Carts/Champ Cars. I know there are driving schools here as well cart tracks, both large and small. Even some of the local Champ Car drivers drive the smaller carts. Then again, I know one of them has a Kyosho Kanai 2 buggy and got very excited when I mentioned an FG 1/5 scale F1.
Yes, you are absolutely right, it is not the same and thanks for your suggestions.
But I was not talking about feeling G forces and all those other things you might “sense” on a real car. I was trying to say that these little cars suppose to be in-scale replicas, to certain extend, of the actual thing. I would be nice if they could behave some how similar to the real thing. I am fully aware of the limitations and how physics are quite different for smaller models. For instance, dimensions for these cars are about 25 times smaller than for a real car but their volume it is not a linear but an exponential relation (25^3 = 25x25x25 = 15,625). This means that if the real car weights 1,500 lbs. the 1:25 scale car won’t weight 1,500 /25 = 60 lbs. but 1,500/15,625 = 0.1 lb., maybe a little more but not much more for a Mini-Z. And that a lot less of mass and a lot less of inertia and that one of the reasons these cars do not slide as much as they should. I just wanted to comment this show on which direction I am pointing to.

Zrc
2004.11.16, 04:37 PM
More importantly...I think you might be trying to say that you would prefer your car to have some realistic responses to input VS. acting like a slot car or a train where the vehicle is all but "stuck" to the track. Is that close??

TNB
2004.11.16, 04:47 PM
As other people have pointed out besides me, it's very simple. If you want to slide around, change the tires. If you want to stick to the track, change the tires. The common theme is "Set Up", which includes tires.

You should also be able to tell a difference if you set up an RCP Track outside in the sun light, outside not in the sun, inside in the AC, inside w/o the AC, and so on. But dang, it may just act like a real track on a hot summer's day.

I guarantee that if you come here and let me pick out the tires, you will not run on my RCP Track like a slot car or a train. Guaranteed. I freaking dare you guys to bring your cars out here and let me pick out the tires. At the very least I'll have a couple of more people to run against and you'll experienced a large RCP Track set up if you have never have before.

ruknd@aol.com
2004.11.16, 05:14 PM
As other people have pointed out besides me, it's very simple. If you want to slide around, change the tires. If you want to stick to the track, change the tires. The common theme is "Set Up", which includes tires.

You should also be able to tell a difference if you set up an RCP Track outside in the sun light, outside not in the sun, inside in the AC, inside w/o the AC, and so on. But dang, it may just act like a real track on a hot summer's day.

I guarantee that if you come here and let me pick out the tires, you will not run on my RCP Track like a slot car or a train. Guaranteed. I freaking dare you guys to bring your cars out here and let me pick out the tires. At the very least I'll have a couple of more people to run against and you'll experienced a large RCP Track set up if you have never have before.

Then again, some of you already know about setting-up a Mini-Z.


http://www.minizracer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=151970#post151970

Tires are key. I bought a new F1 at HKS in Chinatown this weekend and he didn't have any tires instock. Man, running stock on fatigues had NO traction. I just ordered a bunch of tires from the shop here and 30s should do nicely. a bit of slide when I jam teh throttle but lots of grip through turns with little or no throttle.

46u
2004.11.16, 06:15 PM
Tires are key. I bought a new F1 at HKS in Chinatown this weekend and he didn't have any tires instock. Man, running stock on fatigues had NO traction. I just ordered a bunch of tires from the shop here and 30s should do nicely. a bit of slide when I jam teh throttle but lots of grip through turns with little or no throttle.

Run a harder tire on the front or you will too much over steer. On my F1 on RCP track I run 30 rear and 40 front. :D

46u
2004.11.16, 07:00 PM
[QUOTE=.
By the way, traction control is not longer allowed at the start of a F1 race -it has to be mechanical and controlled by the driver-.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry I meant launch control and they do use this or they sure talk about it at the start of every race.
:D

Calgary_Racer
2004.11.17, 12:05 PM
More importantly...I think you might be trying to say that you would prefer your car to have some realistic responses to input VS. acting like a slot car or a train where the vehicle is all but "stuck" to the track. Is that close??
Yes, pretty much. I feel it is like a kind of slot car, instead of a “only throttle car” it is a kind of a “only steering car”. Well, maybe a little bit of throttle too, but not too much, and practically nothing on an oval track, and I am using stock 50 degrees tires. I guess I could go for some upgrades to get a faster car, but again, it won’t be very “real”. A stock car already travels at up to 10 MPH, which in scale is about 250 MPH. I think that is fast enough. If you get any faster, you car might still be a ~ 1:25 scale car but it will behave as a much bigger car and that it is not what I am looking for. A much larger track might be needed and again it won’t look and feel any real (and I do not have a very large basement).
Looks like I am kind of trapped here. Maybe I have to accept that these cars have very little in common with real cars and this is a completely different discipline. Still, of course, a lot of fun as slot cars were when I was a kid but I am still trying to get something more out of them.

ruknd@aol.com
2004.11.17, 12:10 PM
Yes, pretty much. I feel it is like a kind of slot car, instead of a “only throttle car” it is a kind of a “only steering car”. Well, maybe a little bit of throttle too, but not too much, and practically nothing on an oval track, and I am using stock 50 degrees tires. I guess I could go for some upgrades to get a faster car, but again, it won’t be very “real”. A stock car already travels at up to 10 MPH, which in scale is about 250 MPH. I think that is fast enough. If you get any faster, you car might still be a ~ 1:25 scale car but it will behave as a much bigger car and that it is not what I am looking for. A much larger track might be needed and again it won’t look and feel any real (and I do not have a very large basement).
Looks like I am kind of trapped here. Maybe I have to accept that these cars have very little in common with real cars and this is a completely different discipline. Still, of course, a lot of fun as slot cars were when I was a kid but I am still trying to get something more out of them.

Maybe you gotta move up to 1/8 gas...that'll give you some more realism

Calgary_Racer
2004.11.17, 12:18 PM
By the way, traction control is not longer allowed at the start of a F1 race -it has to be mechanical and controlled by the driver-.

I am sorry I meant launch control and they do use this or they sure talk about it at the start of every race.
:D
Yes, you are right, at the start it is called launch control and that is exactly what has been banned this year, electronic launch controls. Renault has come up with some smart mechanical system that gives them a good advantage at the start of a race, but I believe that drivers cannot longer just go full gas and expect a clean and “no spinning wheels” start.
In any case, that is not the point. We are talking here about the level of grip of a track and not about some trick that the cars might have to avoid spinning. Real asphalt has a limited grip and even with the softer tires those cars have some level of spinning / sliding.

TNB
2004.11.17, 12:27 PM
Maybe you gotta move up to 1/8 gas...that'll give you some more realism
...or perhaps, 1/4 scale on-road oval. Check out QSAC. I also own a 1/4 scale too and there is a 1/4 scale track 19 miles from me though I hardly ever get out there. But if someone wants more "realism", that's one option. You can stagger the tires, shocks, and so on or actually should for a oval track. People travel from all over the country to race here several times a year.

ruknd@aol.com
2004.11.17, 12:32 PM
...or perhaps, 1/4 scale on-road oval. Check out QSAC. I also own a 1/4 scale too and there is a 1/4 scale track 19 miles from me though I hardly ever get out there. But if someone wants more "realism", that's one option. You can stagger the tires, shocks, and so on or actually should for a oval track. People travel from all over the country to race here several times a year.

1/4 scale is so pricey you might as well step up to cart racing...there about the same size too :p .

Seriously, though, thats awesome TNB...a 1/4 race is something I'd love to see a video of. How about it?

TNB
2004.11.17, 12:36 PM
Check my video album. I have some "race" video too and used a clip as an avatar for a while. Maybe later on those videos.

ruknd@aol.com
2004.11.17, 01:07 PM
Check my video album. I have some "race" video too and used a clip as an avatar for a while. Maybe later on those videos.
Those look like a blast. I'd like to see a full field running toe to toe...nice vids all around!

Calgary_Racer
2004.11.17, 02:03 PM
Maybe you gotta move up to 1/8 gas...that'll give you some more realism
Again, thanks for the suggestions but 1/8 gas sounds like too big and expensive to me.
Talking about scales, 1/8 is closer to Mini-Z's (only 3 times bigger) than to actual full size cars (8 times smaller). If 1/8 cars can behave like that, a Mini-Z should not be that far from them, Am I right? This is actually some other question I had. For all of you that have driven larger RC cars, How a Mini-Z compares to them in terms of handling, fun, etc?

ruknd@aol.com
2004.11.17, 02:17 PM
Again, thanks for the suggestions but 1/8 gas sounds like too big and expensive to me.
Talking about scales, 1/8 is closer to Mini-Z's (only 3 times bigger) than to actual full size cars (8 times smaller). If 1/8 cars can behave like that, a Mini-Z should not be that far from them, Am I right? This is actually some other question I had. For all of you that have driven larger RC cars, How a Mini-Z compares to them in terms of handling, fun, etc?


Well its not precisely 3x bigger its the whole volume thing. I dont have 1/8 but I do have 1/10 and it is way different than Mini-zs so many more variables. The bigger you get the closer to realism you get. The details become a greater factor.

Even my HPI micro at 1/32 is a bunch different that my z-s. As for fun. I still like 1/10 dirt track the best but its not a daily event (for me anyway) but a friday race and maybe a weekend day practice. The mini-zs allow me to have a good track in a small area and are just slightly less fun than the 1/10 (I know some find them much better). There is somethig to be said about coming home from a days work and turning a few laps on your own track. There is also the expense...z-s are MUCH cheaper to run so in the fun/$ analysis it is tops! Oh, and I have 4 z-s now and they all fit in a trinity mini hauler with lots of room to spare!

But if its precise realism you want you need to get as close to 1:1 as possible.

TNB
2004.11.17, 03:46 PM
Ditto with runkd.

Last year at one of the 1/4 scale races, someone purchased a $3K USD shelf queen. Tires alone are around $50 each. However, as you mentioned that is much closer to 1:1, cost and all. One nice thing though is that the price of gasoline and oil is currently still cheaper than nitro which is what most 1/6-1/4 scales run on unlike nitro which is around $25 USD per gallon here.

Currently, my nitro 1/8th scale mbX5 (see video) and nitro 1/10th scale T-Maxx don't get drove much. However, someone I know just purchased a dirt track, refinished it, and it is doing pretty well. Hence, my mbX5 may see more drive time especially since the temps have dropped below 100F. Like a real car, they do have tuning issues and are subject to high outdoor temps unlike most electric cars or RCs.

As far as the driving characteristics of my larger nitro RCs, my mbX5 is great but I also have some high dollar electronics in it. The MT has too much bling-bling and doesn't turn as well but it is very heavy and doesn't have as good as electronics.

ruknd@aol.com
2004.11.17, 03:55 PM
And that oval looks like a really nice big track...what do the 1/4th get up to on that..speed wise? I'd love to get a 1/4 but there is no track anywhere near here. There arent even any nitro off road tracks but lots of 1/10 carpet and indoor and outdoor dirt.

then again at teh 1/4 point you maybe should think about strapping into a go-kat class and drive 1st person!

TNB
2004.11.17, 04:03 PM
The track is beautiful. I also like it at night even better because of the outdoor lighting, which reminds me of one of the full-size tracks at Las Vegas Motor Speedway. And it's easy to tell that the women really help out their spouses too if one uses the restroom--even the men's restroom is decked out at the snack bar. Each year, the track and facilities gets better and better with more improvements.

Regarding speed, around 50 mph but they can be hopped up! ;)

I actually asked someone I know if he wanted to sell his go-kart a while back since he has had it stored for several years--he said no. I may sometime later, but my Zs get most of my attention since I have my own track and as written earlier, they are easier to work on, less expensive to maintain, and take up less room.

Calgary_Racer
2004.11.17, 04:59 PM
Well its not precisely 3x bigger its the whole volume thing. I dont have 1/8 but I do have 1/10 and it is way different than Mini-zs so many more variables. The bigger you get the closer to realism you get. The details become a greater factor.

Even my HPI micro at 1/32 is a bunch different that my z-s. As for fun. I still like 1/10 dirt track the best but its not a daily event (for me anyway) but a friday race and maybe a weekend day practice. The mini-zs allow me to have a good track in a small area and are just slightly less fun than the 1/10 (I know some find them much better). There is somethig to be said about coming home from a days work and turning a few laps on your own track. There is also the expense...z-s are MUCH cheaper to run so in the fun/$ analysis it is tops! Oh, and I have 4 z-s now and they all fit in a trinity mini hauler with lots of room to spare!

But if its precise realism you want you need to get as close to 1:1 as possible.
Thanks for your answer.
For now I stick to the fun/$ relation.
Is there a HPI micro scale 1/32? I would like to know a little more about it?

46u
2004.11.17, 05:30 PM
Well its not precisely 3x bigger its the whole volume thing. I dont have 1/8 but I do have 1/10 and it is way different than Mini-zs so many more variables. The bigger you get the closer to realism you get. The details become a greater factor.

Even my HPI micro at 1/32 is a bunch different that my z-s. As for fun. I still like 1/10 dirt track the best but its not a daily event (for me anyway) but a friday race and maybe a weekend day practice. The mini-zs allow me to have a good track in a small area and are just slightly less fun than the 1/10 (I know some find them much better). There is somethig to be said about coming home from a days work and turning a few laps on your own track. There is also the expense...z-s are MUCH cheaper to run so in the fun/$ analysis it is tops! Oh, and I have 4 z-s now and they all fit in a trinity mini hauler with lots of room to spare!

But if its precise realism you want you need to get as close to 1:1 as possible.

Where are you getting HPI 1/32 scale cars, as I did not think they made anything smaller then 1/18? So I went to their web site and all they show is 1/18 and bigger at least on their US web site. Where are you getting the 1/32? I do not mean to be rude but if you want it to be like the real thing go with the real thing and not RC. :D

RCPMini-z
2004.11.17, 07:55 PM
HPI sells a 1/24 scale car in Japan. It's called Xmods.

46u
2004.11.17, 10:09 PM
HPI sells a 1/24 scale car in Japan. It's called Xmods.

As I am sure you know that is what Radio Shack sells in the US but no 1/32 like they where talking about.

RCP TRACK IS THE BEST!!!!!!!!!!!
:D :p :rolleyes: :)

ruknd@aol.com
2004.11.17, 11:20 PM
Where are you getting HPI 1/32 scale cars, as I did not think they made anything smaller then 1/18? So I went to their web site and all they show is 1/18 and bigger at least on their US web site. Where are you getting the 1/32? I do not mean to be rude but if you want it to be like the real thing go with the real thing and not RC. :D

Sorry for the typo. One typo and everyone is jumping in. At least its good to see everyone is on their toes! Yes it IS a 1/18 Micro. :p