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THRC Dan
2004.12.15, 10:46 PM
The wheels are in motion for a national championship in 2005.

The official website will be www.minicupusa.com Were waiting for the DNS to be settled before the site is accessible from that address.

For now you can go to http://66.195.109.11

All information is preliminary and your the first to hear about it!

mini-z racing
2004.12.15, 11:03 PM
where are the races going to be?

arch2b
2004.12.16, 05:45 AM
anyone with a large enough rcp track and timing system can hold one it seems which is the beauty of it. no more locations determined by sales figrues etc. i'm guessing that theoretically i could be a host for one of the regional events even :cool:

THRC Dan
2004.12.16, 08:32 AM
Arch, you hit the nail on the head. This event is open to anyone who can hold a race with the proper equipment. We want everyone who wants to, to be a part of it. There is no real owner of the concept. I just came up with the idea and am willing to do the setup web work, promo and stuff like that.
I am counting on the regional and city venues to become a part of it and we all work as a team to put something really cool together for all the racers, and the mini scale hobby.

arch2b
2004.12.16, 08:42 AM
count me in :p if there is anything i can do to help, feel free to ask. i'm only an email away :cool:

techno
2004.12.16, 09:17 AM
I would like to be included the only thing is I need a place to set up. I have 2 sets of wide L and plan on getting a 3rd set also plan on getting the core race setup too when it becomes available
If I can get this off the ground I will rent a spot to set up if needed Iím in Cincinnati Ohio and would welcome anyone interested in this if the local hobby shops in Dayton plan this I will bow out
I might get a hobby shop to host this to given enough interest

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.16, 09:25 AM
That would be fun...what would it be several sites acaross the country with the same track layout? From the support CP has from RCP and others I'm guessing they will host a part of it. I like the idea of a road trip race! A sort of drive to drive :p.

arch2b
2004.12.16, 01:03 PM
well, i think the point to to make this available to a MUCH wider area/audience thus eliminating the long haul trips to a few regionals. it seems with this setup you could potentially choose from several local regionals in which to enter, if not them all.

THRC Dan
2004.12.16, 03:11 PM
Arch, your help would be greatly appreciated!

The more cities per region the better... If we split the country up in sections like
North, South, Midwest, East and West, we can just draw out the states per region and post everyone that participates within their region.

It looks like for the first year we may design the layouts based on 3 Large L's but no more than 4. I talked to Crotty and his group will represent an area. His track footprint is around 20X15. I'm thinking that will be the minimum space requirement that we go for.

Classes will include: Box Stock, Super Stock, Open Sedan (no electronic upgrades), Unlimited Sedan (bring it if you can drive it FETS Pro-Z and all)
And an open F1 class (no electronics upgrades)
This is preliminary and is subject to change based on feedback and what you guys want...

To host races, you will need an RCP (exclusive) track, and an accurate lap counting system with reporting software. The minicupusa site will have a form to sign up soon... but feel free to email your information and we will start posting regions and participating groups as we receive them.

arch2b
2004.12.16, 03:37 PM
hmm.... my track is almost exactly 3 wide l's. i have no more room inside for a larger layout within it's existing location. that doesn't mean finding another temporary location for the even is not out of the realm of possibility.....

as far as classes, keep it simple the first year, try to offer some variety (definatley have a turbo/fet class) and see how it goes before commitign to more elborate adn complex classes and rules. those can always be added as popularity and attendance grows.

i woudl suggest allowing iwavers to run with their respective counterparts in each class as well. IF they do not do well, it will be evident why (not excluding owner skill). it might get tricky though as some models have the upgraded fets which allow for faster motors....

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.16, 03:45 PM
hmm.... my track is almost exactly 3 wide l's. i have no more room inside for a larger layout within it's existing location. that doesn't mean finding another temporary location for the even is not out of the realm of possibility.....

as far as classes, keep it simple the first year, try to offer some variety (definatley have a turbo/fet class) and see how it goes before commitign to more elborate adn complex classes and rules. those can always be added as popularity and attendance grows.

i woudl suggest allowing iwavers to run with their respective counterparts in each class as well. IF they do not do well, it will be evident why (not excluding owner skill). it might get tricky though as some models have the upgraded fets which allow for faster motors....
Hou about a stock and mod for each class and an open class.

davkin
2004.12.16, 03:54 PM
Sounds cool! Though I bet I would have to travel for it. I don't beleive anybody around here owns and RCP track. I might buy one by June, but I don't think I can swing the purchase of both a track and timing system, as well as the computer to run the timing system. I'd have to find a temporary location to hold the event as well since I don't have the space here for a large event. Though I'm unsure if we could get the support here to make the event large.

David

techno
2004.12.16, 04:03 PM
i woudl suggest allowing iwavers to run with their respective counterparts in each class as well. IF they do not do well, it will be evident why (not excluding owner skill). it might get tricky though as some models have the upgraded fets which allow for faster motors....[/QUOTE]


I wouldnt mind seeing them in the same class as the z they are clones unless they are not created equal :D :rolleyes:
and I would not mind seeing a xmod stock and mod class and let them compete in the z open if they can ;) :p
it would be a way to get them to see z's in action therefore helping the z cause!
all fun aside its about the driver not the car
it will be great to support 1:28 racing

arch2b
2004.12.16, 04:23 PM
i agree... i would include all 1/24-28 where practical and applicable or serperate classes for them adn run them if there is enough turn out to support the class, say 4-6 min.

THRC Dan
2004.12.16, 04:56 PM
Right on, on the classes. Iwaver should be part of it, as well as the Xmod for those who want to race them. Its all a matter of reporting results and we'll get them up. In time (2006) it would be nice to even include the 1/18th scale racers.


Arch... I like the idea of keeping classes simple, and as for track size, its up in the air. We do want to make it were more can participate so were still wide open on size. I see no need to go out and rent or find a venue to hold a bigger track. But, the track should be big enough to make a decent layout and possibly incorporate some blank tiles on the main straight if possible..

What we should first think about and try to nail down is a 1st season track area foot print size. That away everyone who wants to participate knows what is needed to plan for. So far, I was going by Crotty's layout which uses a space of 15X20.

Second thing (or at the same time) identify and locate other mini scale racing groups and contact them. I have heard of some groups in California but don't know who they are. When we have the nation covered at least in general area, we can nail down the track size and the rest will be easier.

techno
2004.12.16, 05:05 PM
back to the size and layout most dont have the blanks and space for them i think most who bought rcp have either 96 tile or got 2 wide L or a combination of both
as far as opening it up to 1:18 i think the rcp track standard is too small for racing on unless you get the blank tiles i think we should keep it to 1:2?
and are there enough mini-x - dtm - kawanda and drr out there to make a class
mabey include them in the open class like the bring what you have

arch2b
2004.12.16, 05:07 PM
you can see images of my track layout here (http://mini-zracer.com/gallery/album194). its based on the kyosho reccomended layout number 1 with avrious track times from the kyosho website.

you could coordinate the track layout search with rcp's trak layout db which he is developing.

regarding local tracks etc, there is an ongoing thread here (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4647&highlight=track) with which you could coordinate the grassrootes effort to build support and locations for local tracks, clubs and shops.

i hope to get an m18 next year so i'll definatley be into the 1/18 then ;)

davkin
2004.12.16, 07:09 PM
Spoon has been working on a track directory that might be helpful, here's the link;

http://home.earthlink.net/~jamesgist/trackdirectory.htm

I'd really like to have our club participate if we can get the equipment together. A 15X20 layout will fit in my driveway and I could have pit tables set up in the garage, so maybe I could accomodate enough racers.

David

Twenty-Se7en
2004.12.16, 07:49 PM
I feel left out... if it is a open tournament, then why have only USA? At least include Canada

Ninja
2004.12.16, 09:48 PM
all we need is a lap counter and we could host a race as well here in Chattanooga Tn.

byebye
2004.12.16, 11:14 PM
Once core is in full operation you should be able to race online. That would beinteresting

THRC Dan
2004.12.17, 08:58 AM
Twenty Se7en.. I see no reason to leave out Canada... If you guys have the equipment to put on a race, you should be in.

Twenty-Se7en
2004.12.17, 12:32 PM
Well... i'm looking into purchasing the Core lap counting system... and have 3 wide Ls...
:rolleyes:

wcrotty
2004.12.17, 01:14 PM
"Classes will include: Box Stock, Super Stock, Open Sedan (no electronic upgrades), Unlimited Sedan (bring it if you can drive it FETS Pro-Z and all)
And an open F1 class (no electronics upgrades)"

I personally don't think the iwaver should be in box stock, super stock or open sedan class. The iwaver has a different circuit board with fets that allow more power into the stock motors and open class.

The unlimited class the only rules should be length width and the number of cells.

Twenty-Se7en
2004.12.17, 01:28 PM
You would allow a Pro-Z but not an Iwaver.
:rolleyes:

wcrotty
2004.12.17, 01:40 PM
I would allow Proz with the same circuit board as the mini z for open and super stock.

If you are going to allow iwaver in stock and open then you might as well
let any electronics you can find. Spy, XXL and any servo. If you want a fair class
then the cars must follow the same rules. Iwaver didn't follow the rules.

Iwaver in unlimited class would be fine because it has different fets.

Twenty-Se7en
2004.12.17, 01:43 PM
But many Pro-Zs have different servos and such ... unless you are saying that you would only allow a stock Pro-Z... if there is such a thing. I understand what you are getting at though.

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.17, 01:52 PM
But many Pro-Zs have different servos and such ... unless you are saying that you would only allow a stock Pro-Z... if there is such a thing. I understand what you are getting at though.
There should just be parameters. Use ROAR and NORRCA as models.

arch2b
2004.12.17, 01:54 PM
i agree with crotty. the fact that the iw's have upgraded fets gives them a performance advantage right out of the box. i would venture a guess that most pro-z cars use the stock 01 electronics and not aftermarket stuff. i plan to get a kit and use 02 pcb with 01 servo box

wcrotty
2004.12.17, 01:55 PM
A stock pro-z would have the mr01 or mr02 circuit board.

The servo makes no difference. The mr01 servo is different then the mr02 in looks only. Most servos work the same way. The HS-50 servo from hitec can work with the mini z circuit board by just removing the HS-50 electronic guts and wiring the POT and servo motor direct.

TNB
2004.12.17, 04:13 PM
I would allow Proz with the same circuit board as the mini z for open and super stock.

If you are going to allow iwaver in stock and open then you might as well
let any electronics you can find. Spy, XXL and any servo. If you want a fair class
then the cars must follow the same rules. Iwaver didn't follow the rules.

Iwaver in unlimited class would be fine because it has different fets.
This reminds me of the PN Racing races--Regulate the boards. However, if the boards weren't regulated strictly to Kyosho only boards or even the Kyosho boards and the "non" Pro Iwaver boards, then the Iwaver "Pro" versions could be tossed into a "Pro-type class" which should allow any board and/or any board modification, turbo, FET, etc. to be used as well as any kit or RTR in the same scale class. At some point, the fastest or most modified car will probably not win if the outcome is anything like the last Rialto race since the fastest car may not be necessarily driven by the best driver. The thing is that someone could also show up with a very expensive and highly modified kit, yet no one should complain afterwards.

Perhaps, this latter paragraph applies more to the concept of everyone racing against each other on the same track layout if an inexpensive timing system is relased, but in my opinion, this entire race is going to be difficult to regulate since even all the RCP Track tiles won't necessarily be the same texture and someone could also lay the groves going in a different direction. The actual race conditions could also be very different too, i.e. indoor/outdoor/AC/non-AC/ambient temps/RC Tech inspection, etc. Don't get me wrong, I understand the concept of people "virtually" being able to race each other.

arch2b
2004.12.17, 04:29 PM
boy, always someone to rain on the parade :p

there are always going to be variations. we could argue all day as to the level they will actually play or the level to which they will effect the driving but the main point is a non kyosho national racing series. eventually the classes and rules will sort themselves out, they always do.

nitpicking aside, this is a great idea and i look forward to seeing it come to fruition. with or without it's detractors.

TNB
2004.12.17, 05:34 PM
PN Racing is also looking for host tracks to help with the US regionals in its "PN Racing World Cup 2005" race.

http://www.pnracing.com/

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.18, 02:14 AM
This reminds me of the PN Racing races--Regulate the boards. However, if the boards weren't regulated strictly to Kyosho only boards or even the Kyosho boards and the "non" Pro Iwaver boards, then the Iwaver "Pro" versions could be tossed into a "Pro-type class" which should allow any board and/or any board modification, turbo, FET, etc. to be used as well as any kit or RTR in the same scale class. At some point, the fastest or most modified car will probably not win if the outcome is anything like the last Rialto race since the fastest car may not be necessarily driven by the best driver. The thing is that someone could also show up with a very expensive and highly modified kit, yet no one should complain afterwards.

Perhaps, this latter paragraph applies more to the concept of everyone racing against each other on the same track layout if an inexpensive timing system is relased, but in my opinion, this entire race is going to be difficult to regulate since even all the RCP Track tiles won't necessarily be the same texture and someone could also lay the groves going in a different direction. The actual race conditions could also be very different too, i.e. indoor/outdoor/AC/non-AC/ambient temps/RC Tech inspection, etc. Don't get me wrong, I understand the concept of people "virtually" being able to race each other.
You've got to dial your car in for whatever track you run on...this is not the perfect system but if you want really fast and dry...I think we know where the advantage is... :eek:

arch2b
2004.12.18, 09:54 PM
thrc,
how about setting some panels to cover some of the topics? such as rules/classes and tracks/timing systems and maybe locations/marketing

this way some guidlines for development can be set and some attainable goals. organization will be key :p

THRC Dan
2004.12.19, 07:44 PM
thrc,
how about setting some panels to cover some of the topics? such as rules/classes and tracks/timing systems and maybe locations/marketing

this way some guidlines for development can be set and some attainable goals. organization will be key :p

Will do Arch!

Just got back in front of the PC after a few days doin hunny do's... We will certainly sort out the class rules, and there will never be anything as close as everyone across the nation flying to one spot somewhere and racing on the same track, but that is not possible, so we will have something that I think will be 98% on, at the least as far as conditions. It should be simple enough to show the grain of the tiles on the layouts we choose, and remember the number one thing is the integrity of the participants. I think most folks see it for what it is... Its fun and being as close to equality as possible will be the goal of most people.

Still trying to get the DNS servers pointing in the right direction so the site will be visible from the actual URL. Hope that gets up in a few days, and the site will start getting updated with all kinds of good stuff.

At this point we need to continue to identify qualified venues to contact so we can get some regions and cities nailed down. We have 4 or 5 cities so far across 3 regions. Everything looks good being as early as it is in the process.

arch2b
2004.12.19, 09:21 PM
also, a similar thing is being discussed over on this thread (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5706). check into that and see if we coordinate efforts.

latency
2004.12.19, 10:41 PM
"Classes will include: Box Stock, Super Stock, Open Sedan (no electronic upgrades), Unlimited Sedan (bring it if you can drive it FETS Pro-Z and all)
And an open F1 class (no electronics upgrades)"

I personally don't think the iwaver should be in box stock, super stock or open sedan class. The iwaver has a different circuit board with fets that allow more power into the stock motors and open class.

The unlimited class the only rules should be length width and the number of cells.


Hey Stranger! Looks like you have been as busy as I have, and are coming out of the posting darkness. :) BTW, how did that presentation go the day after your trip home from RCX? :D

I agree with Bills take here, only makes sense.

wcrotty
2004.12.20, 04:54 PM
Hey Latency,

Ya a new baby and work up the ying yang was keeping me from posting for a while.

what have you been up to?

mini-z
2004.12.20, 05:42 PM
thrc,
how about setting some panels to cover some of the topics? such as rules/classes and tracks/timing systems and maybe locations/marketing

this way some guidlines for development can be set and some attainable goals. organization will be key :p

I've added a Mini Cup USA 2005 sub-forum so that we can break into multiple threads rather than one monolithic thread. :)

arch2b
2004.12.20, 07:58 PM
cool :D thrc, if you can get the appropraite threads started we can get people started on specific tasks ;)

Ninja
2004.12.20, 10:47 PM
I personally don't think the iwaver should be in box stock, super stock or open sedan class. The iwaver has a different circuit board with fets that allow more power into the stock motors and open class.

how about Iwavers be allowed in the box stock, super stock or open sedan class if the owner opens the RTR and a Kyosho motor right in front of the officials and does a motor swap

The unlimited class the only rules should be length width and the number of cellsand number of cells isnt the problem, they could always rin lithiums, how about a voltage regulation instead?

McLaren F1 T3
2004.12.21, 12:15 AM
the voltage sounds appropriate just like 7.2v is the regulation for the 1/10 scales..

heres my idea

Regulations

Box-Stock
-Kyosho MR01/MR02 IWaver 01/02(Non Pro)
-All stock parts, and stock KYOSHO Motor.
-Any tire/wheel combination.
-No FET Upgrade/ No Turbo
-Must fit under 1/24-1/28 Scale Shell (Be it Lexan or Kyosho etc.)

Super-Stock
-Any chassis allowed i.e. kyosho mr01/02 iwaver 01/01pro/02 pro-Z, mini-X, xmod,
custom made/home made etc.
-Any Hopup allowed, Any NON-FET/TURBO Motor
-Any tire/wheel combination
-Must fit under 1/24-1/28 Scale Sheel (Be it Lexan or Kyosho, etc.)

Pro-Mod
-Any chassis allowed i.e. kyosho mr01/02 iwaver 01/01pro/02 pro-Z, mini-X, xmod, custom made/home made etc.
-Any Hopup allowed, Any Motor with use of FET Stacked (180/130/whatever)
-Any wheel/tire combination
-Must fit under 1/24-1/28 Scale Shell (Be it Lexan or Kyosho, etc.)


Rules
-Racer must have at least 2 sets of crystals in order to participate.
-AM/FM All allowed.
-Penalty box for extreme hacking of others and/or wreckless driving ( and i mean on purpose, which can obviously be seen (over and over and over again) )
-Late and/or no prepardness causes disqualification and/or points loss.
-Qualifiers will be 2 sets and 1 main for each (A, B, C etc. (depending on how many racers))
-wheelbase musn`t exceed ____mm (undecided)
-track width musn`t exceed ____mm (undecided)
-Must have use of _______ transponder (or maybe you could handout, but i think cheaper more practical transponders unlike 70$ AMB personals should be used in this race, or bought for that matter.)



I know there is stuff to be added so help me out! Thanks.

revzalot
2004.12.21, 01:48 AM
Can we add ABC DTM XPs and X4s?

the voltage sounds appropriate just like 7.2v is the regulation for the 1/10 scales..

heres my idea

Regulations

Box-Stock
-Kyosho MR01/MR02 IWaver 01/02(Non Pro)
-All stock parts, and stock KYOSHO Motor.
-Any tire/wheel combination.
-No FET Upgrade/ No Turbo
-Must fit under 1/24-1/28 Scale Shell (Be it Lexan or Kyosho etc.)

Super-Stock
-Any chassis allowed i.e. kyosho mr01/02 iwaver 01/01pro/02 pro-Z, mini-X, xmod,
custom made/home made etc.
-Any Hopup allowed, Any NON-FET/TURBO Motor
-Any tire/wheel combination
-Must fit under 1/24-1/28 Scale Sheel (Be it Lexan or Kyosho, etc.)

Pro-Mod
-Any chassis allowed i.e. kyosho mr01/02 iwaver 01/01pro/02 pro-Z, mini-X, xmod, custom made/home made etc.
-Any Hopup allowed, Any Motor with use of FET Stacked (180/130/whatever)
-Any wheel/tire combination
-Must fit under 1/24-1/28 Scale Shell (Be it Lexan or Kyosho, etc.)


Rules
-Racer must have at least 2 sets of crystals in order to participate.
-AM/FM All allowed.
-Penalty box for extreme hacking of others and/or wreckless driving ( and i mean on purpose, which can obviously be seen (over and over and over again) )
-Late and/or no prepardness causes disqualification and/or points loss.
-Qualifiers will be 2 sets and 1 main for each (A, B, C etc. (depending on how many racers))
-wheelbase musn`t exceed ____mm (undecided)
-track width musn`t exceed ____mm (undecided)
-Must have use of _______ transponder (or maybe you could handout, but i think cheaper more practical transponders unlike 70$ AMB personals should be used in this race, or bought for that matter.)



I know there is stuff to be added so help me out! Thanks.

davkin
2004.12.21, 08:26 AM
I don't think there's enough difference between Super Stock and Pro in those classifications. I think I'd want to see Super Stock limited to Kyosho or Iwaver chassis only.

David

ELMO4635
2004.12.21, 08:57 AM
We have had this discussion (classes...) at our local track, over and over again, and it seems to never get resolved...

I personally like to see the "box Stock" class at our local races, it brings in newcomers and kids and people who are new to the spoort of RC. But, on the other hand, when someone goes out and buys some bearings, alloy wheels and wheel nuts (which everyone does!), then they are not "Box Stock" anymore??

I would like to see the classes more mimic the old days of electric rc racing, two classes, "Stock" and "Mod", all based on the motor you are running... would make it much easier to police and end all the frustration of exactly what upgrade gives someone an advantage.

What does everyone think? Maybe this should be posted in another forum as well??

Eldon

McLaren F1 T3
2004.12.21, 11:48 AM
see the thing is you want newer drivers to be able to participate, so maybe we should regulate among how fast they are? In 1/10 we run novice/sportsman/expert and mod doesn't exist here.

Regulations

Box-Stock
-Kyosho MR01/MR02 IWaver 01/02(Non Pro)
-All stock parts, but bearings/wheel nuts may be fitted onto the mini-z, and stock KYOSHO Motor.
-Any tire/wheel combination (includes alloy wheels).
-No FET Upgrade/ No Turbo
-Must fit under 1/24-1/28 Scale Shell (Be it Lexan or Kyosho etc.)
-

Super-Stock
-Chassis allowed-Kyosho mr01/02 iwaver 01/01pro/02
-Any Hopup allowed, Any NON-FET/TURBO Motor
-Any tire/wheel combination (includes alloy wheels).
-Must fit under 1/24-1/28 Scale Sheel (Be it Lexan or Kyosho, etc.)

Pro-Mod
-Any chassis allowed i.e. kyosho mr01/02 iwaver 01/01pro/02 pro-Z, mini-X, xmod,
abc dtm/sp, custom made/home made etc.
-Any Hopup allowed, Any Motor with use of FET Stacked (180/130/whatever)
-Any wheel/tire combination (includes alloy wheels.)
-Must fit under 1/24-1/28 Scale Shell (Be it Lexan or Kyosho, etc.)
-voltage must be _._v and under.

Rules
-Racer must have at least 2 sets of crystals in order to participate.
-AM/FM All allowed.
-Penalty box for extreme hacking of others and/or wreckless driving ( and i mean on purpose, which can obviously be seen (over and over and over again) )
-Late and/or no prepardness causes disqualification and/or points loss.
-Qualifiers will be 2 sets and 1 main for each (A, B, C etc. (depending on how many racers))
-wheelbase musn`t exceed ____mm (undecided)
-track width musn`t exceed ____mm (undecided)
-Must have use of _______ transponder (or maybe you could handout, but i think cheaper more practical transponders unlike 70$ AMB personals should be used in this race, or bought for that matter.)



I know there is stuff to be added so help me out! Thanks.


or, we can do it like this (rough draft)

1/24 Open Stock,
-Choose class novice/sportsman/expert
-Must use motor without fet upgrade
-any chassis allowed
-any hopup allowed
-wheelbase musn`t exceed ___mm
-track width musn`t exceed ___mm
-voltage musn`t exceed _._v


1/24 Open Mod
-Choose class novice/sportsman/expert
-Any motor allowed
-Any hopup allowed, tires, wheels, suspension etc.
-Any chassis allowed.
-Wheelbase musn`t exceed ____mm
-Track width musn`t exceed ____mm
-voltage musn't exceed _._v

ELMO4635
2004.12.21, 11:58 AM
Seems there are Pro's and Con's to whatever way we decide on things... I just hate to exclude anyone, and hate even more to bump someone up into a higher class before they are ready.

wcrotty
2004.12.21, 12:38 PM
Also setting up rules like this will stop hobby shops from participating.

Most places race Mini-z classes because that is what they sell. They don't
want to get into selling all the after market chassis. So to set rules that
will exclude almost all the drivers at hobby shops and would make the Mini
cup Nationals not take off.

So the rules have to be fair for everyone (if that is possible) and make it so the best driver wins. Not the one who spends the most.

arch2b
2004.12.21, 01:09 PM
Also setting up rules like this will stop hobby shops from participating.

Most places race Mini-z classes because that is what they sell. They don't
want to get into selling all the after market chassis. So to set rules that
will exclude almost all the drivers at hobby shops and would make the Mini
cup Nationals not take off.

So the rules have to be fair for everyone (if that is possible) and make it so the best driver wins. Not the one who spends the most.
exactly :p if it's not simple enough for everyone, it will only work against you in the end (for those who host and sponsor events).

mini-z
2004.12.21, 01:41 PM
I think we're only looking for about half a dozen locations, preferably independent LHSs like Crotty's or enthusiasts who are able to rent a space to set up their track, so do we really need to be a slave to the big corporate non-enthusiast franchised LHS' interests? Most of the participants so far are independent LHSs like Crotty's or private groups who will rent a space for the event.

arch2b
2004.12.21, 02:01 PM
and as an independant, i could not afford the overhead of hand out rules. i understand that it pays for itself in registration fees but the initial costs are the hosts burden. unless i have all this wrong..... :confused:

mini-z
2004.12.21, 02:16 PM
Well, depending on how far in advance signup is, we could mail out X kits plus Y extras and you could mail back the unused?

arch2b
2004.12.21, 02:25 PM
very true.... i'm sure it could be made to work. :p

wcrotty
2004.12.21, 04:58 PM
I think we're only looking for about half a dozen locations, so do we really need to be a slave to the LHS' interests? Most of the participants so far are independent.

Makes up my mind on the subject

arch2b
2004.12.21, 05:14 PM
Makes up my mind on the subject
:( i am hoping you would be one of the people hosting this as well. we already have the equipment, the racers etc..... we just need to develope simple and easy to apply rules. that's the whole point of the mcusa section. it's obviously going to take some time to flush out the details and well, the whole class and rules issue is already on page 3... i think we should just modify the k. rules and be done with it. simple, sweet and to the point. then we can concentrate on finding locations and bigger problems

DAMZer
2004.12.21, 05:58 PM
Batteries!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO, limit Box Stock and Super Stock to the IC3's.

Let the mod classes fight the battery wars! I've fought these wars for years in 1/10 and it gets real expensive buying packs every year when a higher MAH cell is introduced. To the best of my knowledge there is no way to mod the IC3 cells or chargers yet............?

.........Box Stock should not run Lexan shells, otherwise what is Box stock? Keep the Lexan option open to the Super Stock.

My 2 Cents worth.....

Pro-Z Racing
2004.12.21, 06:39 PM
It's good that everyone has interest in big races and uniform rules. BUT the classes are way too fragmented.

Realistically a small scale track will have enough regular weekly racers to maybe run 2 full classes 1/18th and 1/27th scale. Now your proposing splitting 1/27th into certain death.

Theirs none of these silly rules in larger RC racing for a reason.

Box stock is a way to get new blood and wean them into a regular class of racing. Not the main form of racing. Theirs so many Box stock versions it should be up the individual track to make the decision to run a box stock class.


Stock motor class
mod motor class

Number of cells
Max wheelbase
Max width
Min weight


Everyone uses the same power plant and does what they can to win not restrict everyone to the weakest link on the track.

Lets have Real racing not Spec racing.

TNB
2004.12.21, 06:48 PM
Theirs none of these silly rules in larger RC racing for a reason.
The last I knew ROAR limited the heck out of using brushless motors so why shouldn't there be a FET limit in addition to the motor especially when it appears that different types and brands of R/Cs will be run outside of an "outlaw" class? As mentioned before, most of the other larger Z scale races have limited the boards.

ruf
2004.12.21, 07:18 PM
Batteries!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMHO, limit Box Stock and Super Stock to the IC3's.

Let the mod classes fight the battery wars! I've fought these wars for years in 1/10 and it gets real expensive buying packs every year when a higher MAH cell is introduced. To the best of my knowledge there is no way to mod the IC3 cells or chargers yet............?

.........Box Stock should not run Lexan shells, otherwise what is Box stock? Keep the Lexan option open to the Super Stock.

My 2 Cents worth.....I totally agree. I used to own a track and we ran quite a few big races. Class structure will always be a huge debate between racers, hobbyists, newbies, etc. The battery wars do hurt. I feel that you should ALWAYS just run the 4AAA's. The voltage regulation wouldn't work. In ANY r/c or fullscale racing series, the fuel is always regulated. In 1/10, not only is there a cell count limit (not voltage regulation), but the cells themselves are regulated. There are certain sub-c cells that are illegal. This is the only way to keep the playing field reasonably level. Allowing lithium cells would be like allowing a nuclear Formula 1 engine. The new technology would be cool, but it doesn't belong in racing until it can be standardized to some extent.

Now here is my $0.02 on class structure:

Spec or Sportsman class: BOX stock Kyosho chassis and motor. Here's the kicker: INTENDED for new racers! If you want to grow the hobby and promote a fun atmosphere for the new people, you CANNOT allow sandbaggers. Race director should always have the discretion to bump someone up a class or down a class.

Stock class: Stock motor, stock chassis. Iwaver and XMOD? chassis allowed (no 4WD). No lexan. Bearings and basic hopups allowed (alloy, toe, dampers, etc.). Any electronics, intended for convenience, not competitive advantage. FET boost for stock motor would have no effect, so why not let them run it. For those that just want a cheap way to race and have fun, but whose experience and skill level places them out of the Sportsman class. Again, race director has discretion to bump.

Superstock class: Stock motor. Any chassis. Any electronics. Lexan bodies allowed. This is stock class in the traditional sense. Ultra competitive.

Mod class: Any motor. Any chassis. Any electronics. Lexan bodies allowed.

Leftovers: 4WD. XMOD, DTM, Mini-X, etc. This is a provisional class.

What I've outlined caters both to the competitive race crowd, and to the fun crowd. There are some classes to get people into it, and some classes to keep the die-hards in it. Hard rules on 2WD and batteries to keep it from escalating out of control. Remember, this is a race, not a fun-fly or a car show.

The only people it really leaves out are those with hopped up 4WD cars due to their provisional status. Most of these can be detuned to fit into one of the classes (remove 4WD, run Kyosho stock motor, or run in mod class), for those on a limited budget. The rich guys should have no problem buying another "legal" car and help the industry! ;)

On a final note, let's be real here. The size of the tracks that we will be running on are NOT big. You can talk about FETs and motors and batteries all you want, but after a certain point, power will not help you win. Most of the times it will help you LOSE on a small track. Most of the guys here actually run a slower OVERALL race in mod than in stock, so unless you can drive like those guys in the HK race vids (and I know some of you can), the real limitation is not the number of FETs or batteries or volts you have... :p

ruf
2004.12.21, 07:29 PM
The last I knew ROAR limited the heck out of using brushless motors so why shouldn't there be a FET limit in addition to the motor especially when it appears that different types and brands of R/Cs will be run outside of an "outlaw" class? As mentioned before, most of the other larger Z scale races have limited the boards.Brushless is a totally different technology. No one will tell you that you can't run a $200 ESC in 1/10 stock sedan. :p If you make them run Kyosho stock motors, then there really isn't any advantage to the improved FETs of the other brands. In that case the electronics wouldn't be the limiting factor, it would be the motor. That's the reasoning behind what I said about "any electronics in stock class for convenience, not competitive advantage". If someone has an XMOD or Iwaver with a 2x20 FET stack, then make them run a $5 Kyosho stock motor and nullify their advantage. Saves them the trouble of swapping out all their electronics or buying a new car and saves you the trouble of complaining that they have more juice... :p

Pro-Z Racing
2004.12.21, 08:00 PM
Right back to racing with 3 people perclass.
talking about 5 classes for the same kind of cars.

IT all works well if you have 40 + racers every week.



It seams to be all about levels of Suck. No one wants to race a class that they can't automaticly win.

Racing, is skill practice and equipment. Spec racing is limiting any of those things with in a given class.


Time for people to move out the the beginner class and run with everyone else.

arch2b
2004.12.21, 08:03 PM
Right back to racing with 3 people perclass.
talking about 5 classes for the same kind of cars...
well, this is what were trying to avoid... do you have any suggestions or i assume you already posted them... this and the other thread have exploded today

TNB
2004.12.21, 08:23 PM
ruf,
I'm not going to argue with you over the advantages of using modified or changing the FETs and still using the same motor though I have had numerous people tell me how the braking and acceleration characteristics have changed since adding FET stacks while still using a simple Kyosho Xspeed motor. For that matter the "pro" versions of the Iwaver supposedly have better FETS than either the Kyosho Mini-Zs or the non-pro versions of the Iwaver, so I'd assume there must be something there or people wouldn't make such a big deal about it--however, I would separate the pro versions from the non-versions. Either way I don't care since I have an S04 motor in one of my Enzos right now as well as some completely stock Iwavers and Mini-Zs.

Pro-Z Racing
2004.12.21, 08:31 PM
Racing all gets sorted out in qualifying. Race all cars of the same class Stock or Mod motor.

Qualifying sorts everyone into there main race where everyone is relatively equal.
Each person has the best chance of winning there main. Just not every one races in the A main


But it's getting fragmented so theirs 6 A mains so no ones feelings get hurt. I think that is a joke.

TNB
2004.12.21, 08:35 PM
Why not just make it simple, "bring what you got". No freaking rules.

If you win, you win, if you get beat, you either try harder next time, change your setup/car/etc., or don't race next time.

Pro-Z Racing
2004.12.21, 08:39 PM
That's the best suggestion I've heard yet.

But i'd settle for same rules as regular racing.

ruf
2004.12.21, 08:51 PM
I say we take the discussion over to the rules thread. I'm sick of bouncing back and forth... :p I talked about running classes together when you don't have enough racers.

arch2b
2004.12.21, 09:02 PM
I say we take the discussion over to the rules thread. I'm sick of bouncing back and forth... :p I talked about running classes together when you don't have enough racers.
please reply regarding specific idea in the newly created appropriate threads :p

mini-z
2004.12.22, 09:03 AM
Makes up my mind on the subject

:confused: B, in which direction? I was referring to you as one of the locations? :confused: :( What I meant was, we should focus on enthusiasts like you rather than trying to suck up to generic franchises who couldn't give a toss about our hobby. :confused: :o :(

PAULANGELO
2004.12.22, 01:38 PM
Bill isn't only an enthusiast, but they also have a LHS that was put down in this thread. I have stayed out for so long but if it weren't for the LHS I would not be interested in this hobby (My wife thanks you Eric). The theroys thrown around here are interesting to listen too but I have come up with my own opinion. That is, you will never please everyone. The rules Eric had for the CP cup race were fair. there were some who complained ( :D ) but the playing field was level. The talent of some drivers over other was obvious and there were other things to complain about. Car setup was not one of them. I know Bill and Eric are two LHS ownders that do care about our hobby. If they didn't, they would be out of business in a month. I am not going to throw my opinion into the mix. I am just a racer and I probably will not race in this. I highly doubt Eric is going to participate. He is working on hosting another race.

mini-z
2004.12.22, 02:10 PM
Bill isn't only an enthusiast, but they also have a LHS that was put down in this thread. I have stayed out for so long but if it weren't for the LHS I would not be interested in this hobby (My wife thanks you Eric). The theroys thrown around here are interesting to listen too but I have come up with my own opinion. That is, you will never please everyone. The rules Eric had for the CP cup race were fair. there were some who complained ( :D ) but the playing field was level. The talent of some drivers over other was obvious and there were other things to complain about. Car setup was not one of them. I know Bill and Eric are two LHS ownders that do care about our hobby. If they didn't, they would be out of business in a month. I am not going to throw my opinion into the mix. I am just a racer and I probably will not race in this. I highly doubt Eric is going to participate. He is working on hosting another race.

:confused: Exactly - I must have phrased it really poorly, as that is exactly what I was saying, we want to support the heck out of independent places like Bill and Eric's! I was referring to the generic franchises who don't care about our hobby. I feel like I somehow missed a bunch of posts or something. Who was putting down Bill's LHS?! :confused:

PAULANGELO
2004.12.22, 02:24 PM
I think we're only looking for about half a dozen locations, so do we really need to be a slave to the LHS' interests? Most of the participants so far are independent.
Dave, unfortunetly, I think it was this post that is the offending one.

arch2b
2004.12.22, 02:29 PM
paul, just prior to your reply d corrected his meaning of that statement so it's easy to take it the wrong way without reading d's correction :cool:

mini-z
2004.12.22, 02:37 PM
Okay, I think I fixed it:

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=160466#post160466

:confused:

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.22, 02:45 PM
Okay, I think I fixed it:

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=160466#post160466

:confused:
Thats the way I took it. I dont know how a LHS would siurvive if they didn't partake in the hobby. How would they answer questions and give proper customer service?

PAULANGELO
2004.12.22, 02:47 PM
paul, just prior to your reply d corrected his meaning of that statement so it's easy to take it the wrong way without reading d's correction :cool:
I understand, just answering a question posted at the time.

arch2b
2004.12.22, 02:53 PM
ok, just so were all on the same page now.... :p

from my chats with wcrotty, we actually have alot in common and i feel his level of expertise and professionalism could only add to the credibility and sucess of the mcusa effort. i don't know if wcrotty was interested to begin with though so....he's a man of few words on the forum :p ;)

from my chats with eric, it seems he has his hands full already with everything going on, the sucess of the cup car/truck and upcoming events. again, i don't know that he was ever interested either.....

fraz
2004.12.22, 07:43 PM
ok, just so were all on the same page now.... :p

from my chats with wcrotty, we actually have alot in common and i feel his level of expertise and professionalism could only add to the credibility and sucess of the mcusa effort. i don't know if wcrotty was interested to begin with though so....he's a man of few words on the forum :p ;)

from my chats with eric, it seems he has his hands full already with everything going on, the sucess of the cup car/truck and upcoming events. again, i don't know that he was ever interested either.....


Bill Crotty would be an excellent host and I agree with his technical assesments 100%.

FWIW, myself and SCRC could host a west coast event in sunny Santa Cruz, CA. We have an AMB-IT system and RCP track. There are many Mini-Z racers in our area and north and south of us. We have enough personal transponders that we use for rentals at our 1/10 races that we could do the same for 1/28 scale racing too.

wcrotty
2004.12.22, 09:14 PM
Sorry about the miss understanding Mini-z. When i read the post it sounded like you didn't want LHS.

THRC Dan
2004.12.23, 11:15 AM
What an explosion of opinion.... its great! All of the conversation regarding classes will be considered before anything is nailed down. Keep in mind that everyone will not be satisfied because it is impossible to do that.
We have already confirmed 5 major locations that already hold mini scale racing on a weekly basis. We will take into consideration what is currently being ran, combine that with ideas that we see here in the forum and come up with a class package.
It will be based on simplicity, and what is most accessible to the larger amount of racers. We need to focus on three classes. Stock, Open, and Umlimited. Stock and Open to me should be focused on motor and electronics. Lets come up with something that will only allow a stock mini z chassis and circut board, and hard plastic body. Keep a Kyosho stock motor in for stock, and for open, anything that will run in a stock chasses PCB. ie. x-speed, miniz spec motor, PN Speedy etc.
For unlimited, just make the only limitation be the scale.

The goal is to get the first race off in June. That is why we will run two races before we do the actual "national championship" We cant make it perfect the first run, but we can take what we do and refine it as time goes on. Please be patient and lets just make it happen. There is plenty of time to tweak it once we get a few races under out belts. Keeping it simple in general is the only way to do that.

THRC Dan
2004.12.23, 11:19 AM
fraz.

We really need some venues from the west coast. Please contact us with your information and I will post it on the website.

The site is working now at http://www.minicupusa.com It just came up today so we will start updating it with info.

You can email, myself at thrc@teamhoustonrc.com or Arch2b, or Bill Crotty with this information.

TNB
2004.12.23, 11:23 AM
THRC,

So you actually need to host races 2 days in June, 1 or 2 days in August, and the final in October or November?

From the website:
"Our goal is to hold 2 qualifying race days with the first one being in June of 2005. This gives us time to get everyone organized and set up for the event. Each race venue would appoint a manager to be responsible for both results, and the integrity of those results. We see the first race in June as a trial run and call it qualifier number 1. By that time and by seeing results more involvement will be seen for race two sometime in August 2005. At that point there will be two full races under our belts and two sets of ranking data per region. Then finally sometime in the October, November timeframe, we hold the MINI CUP USA Race. Same scenario but the results get counted by region and then all results will rank each racer against the nation."

mini-z
2004.12.23, 02:40 PM
Sorry about the miss understanding Mini-z. When i read the post it sounded like you didn't want LHS.

No problem - glad we're all cool now! :cool: :)

Pro-Z Racing
2004.12.23, 03:13 PM
Hitler's racing series. One brand of car one kind of electronics. With a special class for the lepers.

What is the major reason 1/27 has to be so different form larger scale? Simple rules that work for all the cars out there and new ones that are still to come.
Theirs 6 versions of a mini z theirs at least 3 clones of each theirs x mods lightning thing plus the dozen custom rigs.
How many different cars have to be out there until we can have a regular set of racing rules?

Motor = Class

ExtraPickles
2004.12.23, 03:20 PM
Hitler's racing series. One brand of car one kind of electronics. With a special class for the lepers.
Man quit that, you just made me spit my favorite liquid refreshment all over my monitor.

Happy Holidays,

-pickles

mini-z
2004.12.23, 03:23 PM
Pro-Z, I agree in principle, but larger scale racing is also very exclusive, and impossible for newbies w/ small budgets to compete in. I think the idea here is to offer something more accessible and have less intimidating/expensive classes available.

Pro-Z Racing
2004.12.23, 03:47 PM
I agree there should be a spec class for beginers but not majority of racing at a national level.

ELMO4635
2004.12.23, 04:01 PM
I do agree that the easiest and most simple Class division is by motor. Have a "Stock" and "Mod" Class and let everyone run. They would then be sorted out into the Mains (A,B,C, etc...). I believe this is how PN is going t run their races...

I also understand about wanting the new guy, or one that can't afford all the hop-ups, a class to themselves.... but, this portion of all the racers is probably less than 10% than the total of racers at any event. They would fall into the lower Mains and race amongst themselves...

There is no clear-cut answer to this problem, it will leave someone out, or get someone angry... I say just bring what ya got and lets race!

Pro-Z Racing
2004.12.23, 04:03 PM
hey pickles wheres the old icon?

PAULANGELO
2004.12.23, 04:29 PM
I like that , bring it and race it!

TNB
2004.12.23, 04:49 PM
So why aren't you guys simply discussing "classes" on the "Mini Cup USA Class Discussion" thread?

http://www.minizracer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=161165#post161165

Is this simple or not?

Stock Class - MR01/IW01/MR015/MR02/IW02 (non-Pro Versions Iwavers)
- Stock PCBs, Motors, Radios, & Chassis
- Rechargeable AAA NiMH batteries (850 limit)
- No option parts allowed other than any rubber tires, wheel nuts, or bearings
- Kyosho or Iwaver bodies only

Mod Class - MR01/IW01/MR015/MR02/IW02/IW01 Pro/IW02 Pro
- PCB, FET upgrades and Motor changes allowed
- Rechargeable AAA NiMH batteries (850 limit)
- Any rubber tires or Foams
- Kyosho or Iwaver bodies only
- Any transmitter radio
- Any brand option parts as long as stock-type manufacturer chassis (colored ok)
---> Hand out motors?????

F1 Class - Same as Mod Class above.
OL/MMT/IW04 Class - Same as Mod Class above.

Outlaw Class (Includes Xmod, ABC, whatever in Mini-Z Scale)
- PCB, FET upgrades and Motor changes allowed
- Rechargeable AAA NiMH batteries (850 limit)
--- unless someone wants to take responsibility for any LiON-LiPo mishaps)
- Any rubber tires or Foams
- Any type body or transmitter radio
- Any brand option parts and chassis as long as Mini-Z Scale
---> Hand out motors?????

If the new programmable IW transmitter ships with both the IW02 and IW02 Pro, then the transmitter needs to be excluded from the stock IW02 class if someone wants to race an IW02 in the stock class, otherwise they need to be placed in the Mod Class. As an alternative, they could be permitted to use a stock Mini-Z transmitter radio.

The main idea is to not allow programmable transmitter radios.

THRC Dan
2004.12.27, 07:33 PM
TNB those look very good.. We also want to add a Super Stock class, so you can run a fully hopped up car ie, bearings, tow bars, alloy etc. but run a stock motor only.

Almost looks like the set of rules for the open car but limiting the motor to Kyosho stock for the mini z class.

gsauls
2005.01.26, 08:34 AM
Question???? What about us Overland racers?? Are we out in the cold on this deal? That would be a shame!

Tim Johnson
2005.10.25, 11:34 PM
everyone ready for this weekend?

arch2b
2005.10.26, 05:21 AM
everyone ready for this weekend?
what's this weekend?

briankstan
2005.10.26, 08:42 AM
what's this weekend?

I beleive he is refering to the PN world Cup Final Race this weekend in Los Angeles