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THRC Dan
2004.12.21, 10:59 AM
Lets discuss ideas on class setup for the championship. Keeping in mind as Arch suggested... Lets keep it simple.

I think chassis is one thing, but if you really want to match driver agains driver, the motor or power plant should be as close as possible especially in the stock and super stock classes. For Pro or Unlimited, then that is what it is. That class is total outlaw.

Lets continue to discuss. The first race will be in June of 2005 so we have time to work it out..

TNB
2004.12.21, 12:28 PM
If you really want to match driver-to-driver in the stock class, you may want to regulate the radio transmitter and boards as well as the motors much the same way Kyosho did in the Mini-Z-Cup. I would allow rechargeable batteries though simply because many racers I know can't stand that limitation and have told me they would no longer race "stock" simply because of the added battery expense. Some may "match" batteries anyway--recall the Kyosho only and/or CP stickered GP Batteries.

arch2b
2004.12.21, 01:02 PM
box stock should be just that.... your limited to whatever came in the box. i do agree that the akaline batt rule should be axed. it's very expensive to begin with... i don't mind putting fine print to include wheel nuts as those have nothign to do with performance adn i am simply tired of seeing stock ones fly off at races. tire rules should be similat to kyosho rules. infact i would start this off by copying the kyosho rules and modeifying them to remove manufact. requirements. for the most part they are very simple and easy to follow rules.

there HAS to be a class for turbo/fet cars. i simply have too many and the thought of not being able to run them would be very frustrating.

thrc, let me know if you want me to pull some of the other replies in the other thread to fill this one as a few have posted suggested classes/rules in them.

michvin
2004.12.21, 01:12 PM
I think, and it's my thought only, that classes needed to be made based on motors only, which means stock motor and modified - means anything but stock. Everything else should be allowed. I seriously doubt it that highly fetted car would have any advantage upon unmodified car with X-speed on the tight RCP or similar track.
Since picking the right setup is also driver-dependent, i think we don't need to exclude this factor by limiting the tires, bearings, batteries, radios etc.
Right, at some point winning will become $$$ dependent, but most of the guys who'll attend those races have already invested twice the price of the car into the upgrades, so what's the point?
Also, i saw two clubs not surviving just because they were too strict on the rules about who can run and what. Lets not repeat their mistakes

arch2b
2004.12.21, 01:19 PM
I think, and it's my thought only, that classes needed to be made based on motors only, which means stock motor and modified - means anything but stock. Everything else should be allowed. I seriously doubt it that highly fetted car would have any advantage upon unmodified car with X-speed on the tight RCP or similar track.
Since picking the right setup is also driver-dependent, i think we don't need to exclude this factor by limiting the tires, bearings, batteries, radios etc.
Right, at some point winning will become $$$ dependent, but most of the guys who'll attend those races have already invested twice the price of the car into the upgrades, so what's the point?
Also, i saw two clubs not surviving just because they were too strict on the rules about who can run and what. Lets not repeat their mistakes
um... i have video that shows how unequal an unfetted and fetted car with an x-speed actually is on an rcp track. fets or factory upgraded fets do give you a considerable advantage.

certain tx's claim to give certain advantages, thus the rules. if you leave it open, the factory sponsor guys with deep pockets will scoop everyting up and who wants that? not me. the point of leveling the playing field is give as many as possible an equal chance at winning. when you don't have restrcitions, it's whomever has the biggest wallet wins for the most part. there are always excpetions to that rule but you all get my point. rules are required, just limit them to be as simple, understandable, and easily applicable as possible

arch2b
2004.12.21, 01:21 PM
um... i have video that shows how unequal an unfetted and fetted car with an x-speed actually is on an rcp track. fets or factory upgraded fets do give you a considerable advantage.

certain tx's claim to give certain advantages, thus the rules. if you leave it open, the factory sponsor guys with deep pockets will scoop everyting up and who wants that? not me. the point of leveling the playing field is give as many as possible an equal chance at winning. when you don't have restrcitions, it's whomever has the biggest wallet wins for the most part. there are always excpetions to that rule but you all get my point. rules are required, just limit them to be as simple, understandable, and easily applicable as possible

the kyosho series didn't go under due to rules... remove the manufac. specifics from them and i feel they are very easy to follow.

arch2b
2004.12.21, 01:31 PM
to get this down to basics even further..... why don't we discuss classes (easily identifiable basic understanding of what they are based on, such as motor, pcb, etc, etc.) first and decide on modifying rules according to class second. we could debate rules for months and get no where. the task at hand is to bring all this information into a developing idea. start simple and work up.... :p

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.21, 02:18 PM
Box stock means no diffs, no bearings, no shocks...this is too limiting. I agree with Michvin. Motors are the good guideline...maybe motors and fets. Tx is the most expensice hop up for a stock fet and motor car and its makes the least amount of difference. Springs, diff adjustment, and tire chioce are things that should be able to be customized and let a driver change this due to teh track and style.

Maybe make fets the limiting factor...you cant run a PN S04 in a stock car...and at that level let people have the option to choose.

Personally, I like how 1:10 rules are set up. As for cost? Of all of us that will be competing how many have a box stock car to race. It may cost me more to race box stock...I'd have to get a new car :eek: .


Just food for thought guys...

mini-z
2004.12.21, 02:28 PM
I think box stock is critical in order to appeal to newbies and those on a smaller budget. I do think that wheel nuts, NiMH AAAs, and tires should be allowed though. Tires could be limited to 30-50d or something, but there's no way we can limit them to what came on the car due to wear. Here's a thought - what about handouts for the box stock class - stock motor, tires, and cells would be handed out and included in the reg. cost? Otherwise, you're going to get someone like me w/ Squat Zapped NiCads, HUDY trued stock tires, and massaged stock motor! :D

arch2b
2004.12.21, 02:35 PM
that might be ok with places like pn and cp but if i were to host something that would definatley not be possible unless the sponsors picked up that part of it. for the most part, that's all money fronted by the host and this potential host has nothing to front :o

stock class should be stock. simple, easy. any mods (other than wheel nuts, and tires) puts you into the modified class similar to the k. rules. i think trying to enforce tire rules is pretty much a joke though unless you go with the k. rules and eliminate foams. cells, well we've all seen the trouble those can cause. especially when people charge inbetween heats etc, i don't think the newbies will flip for the added cost to buy multiple sets. that doesn't mean i'm opossed toi the idea though.

michvin
2004.12.21, 02:53 PM
the best way to discuss it is to make a list of all possible/popular upgrades and then decide.
Tires.... well, 30 deg K's tires effectively rule out fetted cars since they provide no traction (even those trued on Hudy) on fatigue mats, i.e. flat RCP surface...

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.21, 03:24 PM
We need to remember that part of the skill of RC driving is set-up...if we are going box stock, here's an option, part of the entry fee includes the purchase of 6 cars that stay racing...the racers rotate cars each heat. Here, you dont always have the same car. Some saiboat class races use this method and it is a close to a level playing field as possible.

Personally, I think a race like this tests a drivers ability to drive but not skill. Pure stock eliminates too may tuning options. Also, I've noticed that a novice running a hot motor will not be able to control the car. I just got back into the hobby after about 15 years out and the novices using a stock 19 turn are faster than those running the low turn orions. Likewise in the stock and mod classes, the driver with the tightest line and least amount of crashes tends to win.

the pro drivers and the novice drivers competing in that class will have similar equiptment. so I think its gotta be a rotating box stock race or a set up like ROAAR or NORRCA

michvin
2004.12.21, 03:37 PM
How about no classes?
I'll explain what i mean:
You do the qualifying and finals. Thats all. I suspect that at least at the start of the series the attendance would be quite low. So we might end with 3 cars in each class. And to handle multi-class event takes a lot of time, couple of days, actually.
Most of our events would be one-day. Later, if it gets going and growing, classes can be introduced.
Just a thought...

mini-z
2004.12.21, 03:38 PM
the best way to discuss it is to make a list of all possible/popular upgrades and then decide.
Tires.... well, 30 deg K's tires effectively rule out fetted cars since they provide no traction (even those trued on Hudy) on fatigue mats, i.e. flat RCP surface...

RE Tires, I was talking about for Box Stock only - other classes should be unlimited.

arch2b
2004.12.21, 03:42 PM
hmmm... that is true. hate the idea of hand out cars though.

maybe allow spring and h plate options as well then and call it pro stock or something? when you get to allowing all the hop ups though your axing the modified class. dont' go by motors.... the pcb can make or break a motor.

arch2b
2004.12.21, 03:45 PM
How about no classes?
I'll explain what i mean:
You do the qualifying and finals. Thats all. I suspect that at least at the start of the series the attendance would be quite low. So we might end with 3 cars in each class. And to handle multi-class event takes a lot of time, couple of days, actually.
Most of our events would be one-day. Later, if it gets going and growing, classes can be introduced.
Just a thought...
i'm guessing you never attended a k. cup race. the entire thing is done in one day and the turn out is alwasy very good

TNB
2004.12.21, 03:49 PM
It's very simple, if "stock" rules are used such as those used in the Mini-Z-Cup, those who "really" want to race in a stock class will use an R/C that conforms to the rules even if that includes "returning" a car to stock form. If not, they won't race in that particular class.

If FET restrictions are not needed to "make" a level playing field, why do I keep reading posts about how great the Iwaver "pro" versions are because their boards will supposedly handle a 5 amp motor and how great the transmitter is as well? In my opinion, if an R/C manufacturer such as Iwaver actually makes two different subclasses of R/Cs, then they must be a difference and there should be a distinction made within classes. If that mandates separating the non-pro versions and the pro-versions, so be it. The alternative, is to make it "wide open" which wouldn't bother me either.

In my opinion, if there is a wide open "outlaw" class then the end result may be that neither an Xmod, Iwaver, or Kyosho Mini-Z will win the race or at the very least a highly modified variant may win even if that car has micro-electronics or not.

arch2b
2004.12.21, 03:53 PM
for the benifit of everyone, i think limiting it to 3 class distinctions should be the goal. one being stock, another being outlaw. the middle, well, that's the sticky part

i don't think 3 classes (2 for most) for each chassis type would be a difficult thing to pull off, k. did it for 3 years. if we add many more chassis types, that's when it breaks into a 2nd day for the event.

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.21, 04:37 PM
for the benifit of everyone, i think limiting it to 3 class distinctions should be the goal. one being stock, another being outlaw. the middle, well, that's the sticky part

i don't think 3 classes (2 for most) for each chassis type would be a difficult thing to pull off, k. did it for 3 years. if we add many more chassis types, that's when it breaks into a 2nd day for the event.
Middle class should be no fets but any other hop ups...sort of a mod stock class.

What about F1?

And can we use alloys? We've spent all this $$$ for a visual upgrade...see no performance benefit aside from durability.

Also, at the very least there should be no tire limits for softness.

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.21, 04:38 PM
RE Tires, I was talking about for Box Stock only - other classes should be unlimited.
What is box stock for tires? I have different cars that have come with different tires :confused:

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.21, 04:43 PM
It's very simple, if "stock" rules are used such as those used in the Mini-Z-Cup, those who "really" want to race in a stock class will use an R/C that conforms to the rules even if that includes "returning" a car to stock form. If not, they won't race in that particular class.

If FET restrictions are not needed to "make" a level playing field, why do I keep reading posts about how great the Iwaver "pro" versions are because their boards will supposedly handle a 5 amp motor and how great the transmitter is as well? In my opinion, if an R/C manufacturer such as Iwaver actually makes two different subclasses of R/Cs, then they must be a difference and there should be a distinction made within classes. If that mandates separating the non-pro versions and the pro-versions, so be it. The alternative, is to make it "wide open" which wouldn't bother me either.

In my opinion, if there is a wide open "outlaw" class then the end result may be that neither an Xmod, Iwaver, or Kyosho Mini-Z will win the race or at the very least a highly modified variant may win even if that car has micro-electronics or not.

Lots of R/C companies make a RTR version and a Kit version with the kit version being a much better car. Yet, they all compete together...

sorry for teh rapid posts...I wanted to respond but I couldnt edit...

This is a tough issue...and there is no "right" way...and the ebst way now will probably be altered by the next event.

We need to decide if we want to use rules similar to 1:10 or those in K cup.

Aside from the performance arguments, I see a problem with the K Cup rules as Kyosho ahs abandoned us by takign away the K Cup...and to support a one name class puts all our eggs in one basket...we need to have a mroe open class.

If a class is more open, the hope is that other RC companies see a market for the micro racing and we have more and better options for cars and kits...we will also have more options for sponsors and event planners.

The more narrow the scope the more limiting it becomes...this argument is going on with 1:10 touring cars...and it is tough to find a safe middle ground but with bone stock K cars it is saying to other manufactures we dont want an alternative vehicle. Why not attract X-Ray, Losi, Associated, HPI....and a host of others?

Twenty-Se7en
2004.12.21, 04:45 PM
This mini cup was a great idea in the beginning... it has escallated and been blown way up... i've completely lost interest. Maybe people like me are the people that you might still want to be thinking about.

arch2b
2004.12.21, 04:53 PM
Lots of R/C companies make a RTR version and a Kit version with the kit version being a much better car. Yet, they all compete together...
to be blunt, those are other scales. the only kit versions that are similar to what your describing are the anniv. monster and overland. what works in larger scales doesn't mean it will or should work for smaller scales

TNB
2004.12.21, 04:55 PM
runkd,
I agree most kits are better than RTRs since they usually already include option parts and the builder usually installs better electronics as well. Some factory drivers also get "non-released" parts and engines prior to the public. Is that the type of race this will be?

Do you know of any Xmod, Iwaver or Kyosho Mini-Z kits released by the actual manufactuering company? I don't. I also believe that some of the modified R/Cs will probably blow away the regular Zs, Iwavers and Xmods in the proper driver's hands even if they use a 5 amp board. The race than may become not a test of skill on an equal playing field, but a test of who can get their paws on the best equipment and show up to race. Quite frankly, I really don't care but afterwards I can imagine how many people are going to complain because some driver beat them with a "better car" after they "spent" all this extra money.

Even alloy on an F1 can be a big advantage if it comes down to a knuckle.

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.21, 04:56 PM
This mini cup was a great idea in the beginning... it has escallated and been blown way up... i've completely lost interest. Maybe people like me are the people that you might still want to be thinking about.
This is a thread for a discussion of the rules and options...I see it as sort a brain (or lack of brain) storming thread...the cup is still a great idea and if you have ideas on rules then let everyone know.

Hey, I like getting my ass kicked in a race. And when I do I'll always look at how. Often it is because I jsut couldnt get the back stretch quite right and not hop ups. As for the pro issue I totally agree but they should run in the "anything goes pro class".

maybe we need to just do a poll to see what classes people will enter into? That will give us the best idea as to what classes are most popular.

arch2b
2004.12.21, 04:57 PM
27 is right, this whole point is to keep it simple. you obviously won't make everyone happy but if you hit the majority as the k. cup did (excluding manuf. rules), i think it will be successful

arch2b
2004.12.21, 05:02 PM
This is a thread for a discussion of the rules and options...I see it as sort a brain (or lack of brain) storming thread...the cup is still a great idea and if you have ideas on rules then let everyone know.

Hey, I like getting my ass kicked in a race. And when I do I'll always look at how. Often it is because I jsut couldnt get the back stretch quite right and not hop ups. As for the pro issue I totally agree but they should run in the "anything goes pro class".

maybe we need to just do a poll to see what classes people will enter into? That will give us the best idea as to what classes are most popular.
not sure if that was a veiled insult or not but i understand what your saying

ELMO4635
2004.12.21, 05:03 PM
This mini cup was a great idea in the beginning... it has escallated and been blown way up... i've completely lost interest. Maybe people like me are the people that you might still want to be thinking about.

Don't lose interest... we are trying to make everything fair for everyone, and also grow the hobby as well! GIVE US YOUR INPUT.. don't throw your hands up and walk away!

The Mini-Cup is a fantastic idea, and I would hate to see someone not run because they feel intimidated or not have as much "bling-bling" on their cars as the next person. Just this past weekend, I won my first race! Now you have to understand, I am excited, but I also had to beat out a 7-year-old to win it!! LOL That is what makes this hobby fun, anyone can participate, anyone can have fun, and anyone can win!!

Eldon / THRC

arch2b
2004.12.21, 05:08 PM
Don't lose interest... we are trying to make everything fair for everyone, and also grow the hobby as well! GIVE US YOUR INPUT.. don't throw your hands up and walk away!

The Mini-Cup is a fantastic idea, and I would hate to see someone not run because they feel intimidated or not have as much "bling-bling" on their cars as the next person. Just this past weekend, I won my first race! Now you have to understand, I am excited, but I also had to beat out a 7-year-old to win it!! LOL That is what makes this hobby fun, anyone can participate, anyone can have fun, and anyone can win!!

Eldon / THRC
yeah, what he said :p

TNB
2004.12.21, 05:09 PM
Don't lose interest... we are trying to make everything fair for everyone, and also grow the hobby as well!
It appears that is what Kyosho was attempting to do with the Mini-Z-Cup and by having so many "stock" rules, it allowed people to compete without having to spend the extra money on option parts. Some of the other rules also cut down on the "edge" that some people may have on option parts (as well as allowing others to compete with Kyosho option products) and matched batteries.

brian
2004.12.21, 05:09 PM
Stock racing has the same problems in every form of racing, there will always be someone with cheater motors, batteries, willing to bend stock parts to generate camber, and some mystry goo to make 60 tires into 5's. There's no point in having any other limit besides a stock motor (which will be pointless too)

The real racers have always run modified, with limits on the number of cells and car dimensions allowing other manufacturers to enter the market. Remember back in the 90's when associated was absolutely dominating the offroad world and Losi released the jrx-2?

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.21, 05:11 PM
not sure if that was a veiled insult or not but i understand what your saying
No arch...it was only an insult to my driving ability. :D

This is a good discussion. I like to hear what everyone has to say. I admit I'm still very much a noob to RC but the bottom line is no mater what the rules end up being I plan on entering. And having FUN.

And that's tru about someone performing medical marvels on their cars and using the rules to extend teh rules istead of reading them for their purpose. The more rules you have the more intrepretations there are.

It seems that motors, fets and batteries are the hop ups that give the most speed so it is most important to place rules on those.

TNB
2004.12.21, 05:17 PM
brian,

On good thing in my opinion about the US Mini-Z-Cup was that Alex did most of the tech inspections. Hopefully, there was only one standard overall just to catch those "cheaters". The cup rules also didn't permit the use of tire enhancing compounds as well as body lightening techniques and so on.

Twenty-Se7en
2004.12.21, 05:20 PM
I'm not saying that I wont add input, but as it stands right now things are getting a little ... well, muddled.


TNB: I love the "stock" races, because there are a lot of great racers who just cannot afford to sink the money into the hobby. I can't imagine some of these people with modded out rides, they would be amazing. I like to give the race to someone who ears it driving wise, not money-into-car wise. You know?

ELMO4635
2004.12.21, 05:20 PM
I think Kyosho had the right idea starting the Kyosho Cup...but, they kind of killed it by only allowing Kyosho hopups, Kyosho batteries, etc...

Their first and main goal should have been to sell a Kyosho Mini-Z to every household in America, and make the Mini-Z a "huge" RC class! But, by limiting it to only Kyosho products, it took many people out of the Cup. Now I understand that they were trying to make $ and support their selves, but many people upgrade their cars and buy whatever they can afford or what appeals to them... that is why there are so many companies making parts for the Mini-Z's (Powerline, Megatech, GPM, 3Racing, Topcad, etc...).

The point I am trying to get too, is that our main purpose should be to make the Mini-Z's a household name, no matter what upgrades we have, no matter what brand or softness of tires we run, etc... Just have fun, race our cars, be competitive, and grow the sport!

ELMO4635
2004.12.21, 05:25 PM
Twenty-Se7ev,

I hear what you are saying, and I completly understand! I can't afford an M8 radio to run my car, but on the other hand, buying some alloy parts (motor mount $15 and screws $10) shouldn't necesarily bump me up into a class with these guys with FET upgrades and $50 motors... that is what we are trying to work out and get everyone's opinion.

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.21, 05:28 PM
I'm not saying that I wont add input, but as it stands right now things are getting a little ... well, muddled.


TNB: I love the "stock" races, because there are a lot of great racers who just cannot afford to sink the money into the hobby. I can't imagine some of these people with modded out rides, they would be amazing. I like to give the race to someone who ears it driving wise, not money-into-car wise. You know?

Unfortunately, any sport where its man and machine there is a certain amoun of unaviodable cost for performance. Even siplle events like bike racing where there is no motor.

It seems that three classes might be the best idea. Bone stock, hop ups with no board modification, and pro anything goes class. Just an idea...

I hear what you are saying 27 but I also agree with Elmo that if I replaced a broken knuckle with an alloy one does it make that much of a difference?

If it is goign to be bone stock, in my mind, the most level playing field is to rotate cars...that way if you cheat someone else might have your cheat.

Frankly, if I used my M8 I wouldnt finish a lap....still cant get it to work on the Zs :p

TNB
2004.12.21, 05:33 PM
Twenty-Se7en,
I know what you mean about "giv[ing] the race to someone who ears it driving wise, not money-into-car wise." Myself, I get a kick out of watching how well Bill can drive as well as a few others no matter if it is the stock class or open class. Overall, I just like hanging out, meeting some of the other racers, and learning a few tips--it's like a "crash" course in Z-101. I also understand and realize that others may simply try to purchase almost every tire on the market just to keep others from getting them just so they can try to have an edge--it may sound crazy but that's just one of the rumors I've heard floating around. Strict rules just limit such activity or at least help limit the BS that occurs once the "fun" turns into a "race".

TNB
2004.12.21, 05:38 PM
ruknd,

In my opinion, it does make a lot of difference to replace a plastic "F1" knuckle with an alloy one simple because it is an open wheel car. Even if an alloy knuckle is allowed, do you limit the degree too since it may or may not be available in stock which would also make a difference.

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.21, 05:48 PM
ruknd,

In my opinion, it does make a lot of difference to replace a plastic "F1" knuckle with an alloy one simple because it is an open wheel car. Even if an alloy knuckle is allowed, do you limit the degree too since it may or may not be available in stock which would also make a difference.
Agreed on F1...but they break so easily...that after any time with the car you have broken them. And why not replace them with alloy? camber makes a difference for some and not for others.

If some tool wants to go and try and buy every tire on the market to try and corner it go ahead...what is that going to cost him?

Maybe I am naieve but my goal for a race is to meet some of you here on the forum and have fun. If I race well I'll be happy, if I crap out I'll still be happy. I'l try my hardest to race my best and that is it. Cornering the market on atomic parts is just goign to get everyone to hate you. No matter what there will be these people...these will be the same people that get matched zapped cells and wrap them in a different wrapper. There will always be cheaters.

We need to look at two things, what would get the most participation (I still think a poll might be good) and what will further the hobby/sport.

Frankly the people with the biggest advantage are those with enough space to set up an RCP and practice :D .

In the end whoever organizes the race decides. And if there are people who are so set on winning they will cheat...how about hand out motors, batteries, and tires?

Here is someting else I've noticed, some people prefer different tires so wouldnt running stock give people with that type of driving style an advantage?

brian
2004.12.21, 05:55 PM
These are the reasons you shouldn't limit the cars, this isn't 8th scale we're talking about.. my super stock winning car from last week has maybe 50 dollars worth of upgrades on it, in fact if i wasn't running the open class, id have won that with my stock run as well

arch2b
2004.12.21, 05:59 PM
...Maybe I am naieve but my goal for a race is to meet some of you here on the forum and have fun. If I race well I'll be happy, if I crap out I'll still be happy. I'l try my hardest to race my best and that is it....Here is someting else I've noticed, some people prefer different tires so wouldnt running stock give people with that type of driving style an advantage?

well said. i couldn't agree more. i can almost garauntee you i won't win but i can garauntee you will leave having had fun either way.

hmmm... it hasn't paid off for me thus far :p while i have greatly improved, i still get passed by my much younger brother and cousin, not to mention byebye, his wife, and sometimes his son :confused: about the only ones a can pass without a doubt are my son and wife :rolleyes:

TNB
2004.12.21, 07:35 PM
Here is someting else I've noticed, some people prefer different tires so wouldnt running stock give people with that type of driving style an advantage?
In the past Mini-Z-Cup events, "stock" didn't apply to tires though the tires couldn't be foams and the F1s also had to have "ribbed" tires. It is also my understanding that at one regional the tire rule was modified because of the track. However, such a special change in the tire rule shouldn't apply if everyone is running on an RCP Track. The problem with "handout tires" is that some people prefer overstear, some understear, and some may even prefer neutral. Then again, the choice of a "range" of a particular tire could be an option. However, then the race fees would have to be increased and someone would have to front to costs of the tires. (PN Racing does this with its motors and at its races, PN Racing also regulates the boards. Kyosho and Xmod also regulated the boards in their tournaments. Why reinvent the wheel....).

Twenty-Se7en
2004.12.21, 07:38 PM
Nice to know how many people feel similar or at least understand what i'm getting at. My 2cents about this "class discussion" is that it should be kept simple for a while, to get it up and running.

ruf
2004.12.21, 08:42 PM
copied from my post in the Mini Cup US 2005 thread:

=====================================

I used to own a track and we ran quite a few big races. Class structure will always be a huge debate between racers, hobbyists, newbies, etc. The battery wars do hurt. I feel that you should ALWAYS just run the 4AAA's. The voltage regulation wouldn't work. In ANY r/c or fullscale racing series, the fuel is always regulated. In 1/10, not only is there a cell count limit (not voltage regulation), but the cells themselves are regulated. There are certain sub-c cells that are illegal. This is the only way to keep the playing field reasonably level. Allowing lithium cells would be like allowing a nuclear Formula 1 engine. The new technology would be cool, but it doesn't belong in racing until it can be standardized to some extent.

Now here is my $0.02 on class structure:

Spec or Sportsman class: BOX stock Kyosho chassis and motor. Here's the kicker: INTENDED for new racers! If you want to grow the hobby and promote a fun atmosphere for the new people, you CANNOT allow sandbaggers. Race director should always have the discretion to bump someone up a class or down a class.

Stock class: Stock motor, stock chassis. Iwaver and XMOD? chassis allowed (no 4WD). No lexan. Bearings and basic hopups allowed (alloy, toe, dampers, etc.). Any electronics, intended for convenience, not competitive advantage. FET boost for stock motor would have no effect, so why not let them run it. For those that just want a cheap way to race and have fun, but whose experience and skill level places them out of the Sportsman class. Again, race director has discretion to bump.

Superstock class: Stock motor. Any chassis. Any electronics. Lexan bodies allowed. This is stock class in the traditional sense. Ultra competitive.

Mod class: Any motor. Any chassis. Any electronics. Lexan bodies allowed.

Leftovers: 4WD. XMOD, DTM, Mini-X, etc. This is a provisional class.

What I've outlined caters both to the competitive race crowd, and to the fun crowd. There are some classes to get people into it, and some classes to keep the die-hards in it. Hard rules on 2WD and batteries to keep it from escalating out of control. Remember, this is a race, not a fun-fly or a car show.

The only people it really leaves out are those with hopped up 4WD cars due to their provisional status. Most of these can be detuned to fit into one of the classes (remove 4WD, run Kyosho stock motor, or run in mod class), for those on a limited budget. The rich guys should have no problem buying another "legal" car and help the industry!

On a final note, let's be real here. The size of the tracks that we will be running on are NOT big. You can talk about FETs and motors and batteries all you want, but after a certain point, power will not help you win. Most of the times it will help you LOSE on a small track. Most of the guys here actually run a slower OVERALL race in mod than in stock, so unless you can drive like those guys in the HK race vids (and I know some of you can), the real limitation is not the number of FETs or batteries or volts you have...

arch2b
2004.12.21, 08:54 PM
nice. i like it

arch2b
2004.12.21, 08:55 PM
does this thread win an ward for the fastest to 4 pages :D

TNB
2004.12.21, 08:57 PM
It's just because of your gigantic signature line. ;)

arch2b
2004.12.21, 09:00 PM
It's just because of your gigantic signature line. ;)

hmmm... doesn't change the defailt size of a reply frame

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.21, 09:03 PM
copied from my post in the Mini Cup US 2005 thread:

=====================================

I used to own a track and we ran quite a few big races. Class structure will always be a huge debate between racers, hobbyists, newbies, etc. The battery wars do hurt. I feel that you should ALWAYS just run the 4AAA's. The voltage regulation wouldn't work. In ANY r/c or fullscale racing series, the fuel is always regulated. In 1/10, not only is there a cell count limit (not voltage regulation), but the cells themselves are regulated. There are certain sub-c cells that are illegal. This is the only way to keep the playing field reasonably level. Allowing lithium cells would be like allowing a nuclear Formula 1 engine. The new technology would be cool, but it doesn't belong in racing until it can be standardized to some extent.

Now here is my $0.02 on class structure:

Spec or Sportsman class: BOX stock Kyosho chassis and motor. Here's the kicker: INTENDED for new racers! If you want to grow the hobby and promote a fun atmosphere for the new people, you CANNOT allow sandbaggers. Race director should always have the discretion to bump someone up a class or down a class.

Stock class: Stock motor, stock chassis. Iwaver and XMOD? chassis allowed (no 4WD). No lexan. Bearings and basic hopups allowed (alloy, toe, dampers, etc.). Any electronics, intended for convenience, not competitive advantage. FET boost for stock motor would have no effect, so why not let them run it. For those that just want a cheap way to race and have fun, but whose experience and skill level places them out of the Sportsman class. Again, race director has discretion to bump.

Superstock class: Stock motor. Any chassis. Any electronics. Lexan bodies allowed. This is stock class in the traditional sense. Ultra competitive.

Mod class: Any motor. Any chassis. Any electronics. Lexan bodies allowed.

Leftovers: 4WD. XMOD, DTM, Mini-X, etc. This is a provisional class.

What I've outlined caters both to the competitive race crowd, and to the fun crowd. There are some classes to get people into it, and some classes to keep the die-hards in it. Hard rules on 2WD and batteries to keep it from escalating out of control. Remember, this is a race, not a fun-fly or a car show.

The only people it really leaves out are those with hopped up 4WD cars due to their provisional status. Most of these can be detuned to fit into one of the classes (remove 4WD, run Kyosho stock motor, or run in mod class), for those on a limited budget. The rich guys should have no problem buying another "legal" car and help the industry!

On a final note, let's be real here. The size of the tracks that we will be running on are NOT big. You can talk about FETs and motors and batteries all you want, but after a certain point, power will not help you win. Most of the times it will help you LOSE on a small track. Most of the guys here actually run a slower OVERALL race in mod than in stock, so unless you can drive like those guys in the HK race vids (and I know some of you can), the real limitation is not the number of FETs or batteries or volts you have...


Yeah, this is pretty much what I feel is a good set up. The problem is that is this too many classes? If not this is exactally my sentiment. MOderator rules the course...cheat get kicked out...stop having fun...get kicked in the ass. We want everyone involved event hose people who cant afford a new MR02 but have gotten away from the x-mods with a IW01 or 02.

I cant go back and get here again....but was that TNB who said I wouldn't win :eek: ...I might not but I'm a terrible road block...sucks to try and lap me :p.


The one rpoblem I see is that...the stock tires are soo hard and some are softer than others. My 02 is about a 40 while my 01 was about a 192 (I use them as chains and run my OL on the ice with them
:p ).

And if were not tweaking our cars between heats what are we to do?

TNB
2004.12.21, 09:12 PM
hmmm... doesn't change the defailt size of a reply frame
I'm just giving you a bad time; however, long quotes do make a thread longer. ;)

arch2b
2004.12.21, 09:17 PM
I'm just giving you a bad time; however, long quotes do make a thread longer. ;)
it was time for a change anyway :p it was really behind in terms of albums too

ruf
2004.12.21, 09:25 PM
Yeah, this is pretty much what I feel is a good set up. The problem is that is this too many classes? If not this is exactally my sentiment. MOderator rules the course...cheat get kicked out...stop having fun...get kicked in the ass. We want everyone involved event hose people who cant afford a new MR02 but have gotten away from the x-mods with a IW01 or 02.

I cant go back and get here again....but was that TNB who said I wouldn't win :eek: ...I might not but I'm a terrible road block...sucks to try and lap me :p.


The one rpoblem I see is that...the stock tires are soo hard and some are softer than others. My 02 is about a 40 while my 01 was about a 192 (I use them as chains and run my OL on the ice with them
:p ).

And if were not tweaking our cars between heats what are we to do?Depending on how many racers you have, it CAN be too many classes. At that point, it's up to race direction to run classes together and make sure that everyone still has a good time. With a proper driver's meeting and racing etiquette, a Sportsman or Superstock could be grouped into Stock. Also, chances are that someone with a Superstock-level car probably has a mod motor laying around and wouldn't mind the challenge of running in Mod class. On a side note, the 1st-place Stock driver at our last race would've lapped the 2nd-place Mod driver 3 times (he also won the Mod race), so who's to say that someone couldn't run a stock-motored Superstock-level car in a Mod race? ;)

Stock tires would only be required in the Spec/Sportsman class. Softer tires would put you into the Stock class. Foams should probably be allowed in Stock class since most people feel that they are more of a preference rather than a performance advantage on RCP. As for being a backmarker in Stock class, you'd be surprised how quickly new drivers get fast when running with people a LITTLE bit faster, but not a WHOLE LOT faster. The Stock class would allow for that improvement without the intimidation being run over by a Superstock-level driver. :p

davkin
2004.12.21, 09:59 PM
Okay, it's my turn. This is my idea of how the classes should be and why. First, only three classes, any more is spreading it awfully thin, especially in places where Mini-Z racing doesn't have a lot of support.

Stock - Stock Kyosho or Iwaver chassis, and stock 130 motor. Only minor upgrades allowed such as bearings and wheel nuts, and tires.

A very basic and cheap class like this is important for the newbies and those on a limited budget.

Super Stock - Still, Kyosho or Iwaver chassis, but mod motors allowed, and fet upgrades would have to be allowed on the Kyosho boards I guess since Iwaver has muddied that issue. :) Only bolt on upgrades allowed, in other words, the bulk of the chassis is still recognizable as an MR01, IW02 or whatever.

This would allow any suspension and drivetrain upgrades, but no homegrown or high tech ingenuity not available to the general public. The idea is that anyone could put together a competitive car, but their driving abilities will be tested with the higher speeds allowed.

Unlimited. - The only restriction is scale, must be 1/28 to 1/24 scale. It will be fun to see what people come up with!

If any of this resembles someone elses already posted ideas I apologize, I just didn't have time to read four pages of posts. :D

David

arch2b
2004.12.21, 10:01 PM
nice and simple, thanks for the ideas

ruf
2004.12.21, 10:34 PM
ruf,
I'm not going to argue with you over the advantages of using modified or changing the FETs and still using the same motor though I have had numerous people tell me how the braking and acceleration characteristics have changed since adding FET stacks while still using a simple Kyosho Xspeed motor. For that matter the "pro" versions of the Iwaver supposedly have better FETS than either the Kyosho Mini-Zs or the non-pro versions of the Iwaver, so I'd assume there must be something there or people wouldn't make such a big deal about it--however, I would separate the pro versions from the non-versions. Either way I don't care since I have an S04 motor in one of my Enzos right now as well as some completely stock Iwavers and Mini-Zs.I agree that the FETs would affect an Xspeed, but not a stock Kyosho motor. IMO, Xspeed should be run in Mod class.

Stock class by nature is going to have a varied pool of talent and equipment specification. I just think that we should try to minimize that without sacrificing the size of the grid. The most important thing is to insulate new people from intimidation. Keeping the Superstock guys from complaining about backmarkers and vice versa is strictly secondary.

ruf
2004.12.21, 10:46 PM
First, only three classes, any more is spreading it awfully thin, especially in places where Mini-Z racing doesn't have a lot of support.

DavidSmaller r/c tracks have always bent class rules in practice when turnout was low. Simple is good in this case, but we still need a more regimented class structure for officially sanctioned events like this Mini Cup. The run-what-you-brung mentality may work great for 10-person club race, but would wreak havoc at a ROAR national event. Although a multi-class structure may seem like overkill, it needs to be in place as a guideline for changes to be made to suit the turnout on a provisional basis, and to be strictly adhered to at larger events. Otherwise this scale is just going to go the way of the Micro RS4.

DAMZer
2004.12.21, 11:33 PM
We are talking about an organized large race not a club race, aren't we? Then Super/expert Stock class could incorporate all 3 sub levels of stock and let the cars/drivers sort out in the mains. But award/recognize the top 3 in each main. When the heats are laid out, it would be up to the race director to subsort by ability, if known, and car spec which is known by car inspection.

The cream will rise to the A-main.........

Motor limit needed.........since motors aren't controlled by a sanctioning body, it's going to be tuff to limit unless you simply state a type or include a handout in the cost of the entry. Numbered and sealed endbells/cans. You can tweak it but the armature/can must be original and unopened.

Limit to 4AAA cells all stock classes. I still say the cheapest way to keep the field equal on batteries is to specify IC3's, heck for under 60 bucks you can get 8 cells and a charger. I really hate competing against high dollar batteries in any class.

Mod class, limit to 4AAA and min/max shell size, that's about it.

I am firmly against running varied times for the stock heats and mains. If you're only talking about 1-2 minutes, then run them all the same. Personally I'd like to see all races in the 9-10 minute range, but if 5 is more workable, fine, just keep the heats and the mains the same.

michvin
2004.12.21, 11:53 PM
wow, this thread is growing even faster than "New York Zity"
I prolly be wrong (again ;) ) but lets see first how will the GTG DC-NYC will work out. will we be able to pull it out, to gather enough people, to find place and location.
~20 avid racers (me included) who post here doesn't make a National League yet unfortunately :(

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.22, 01:04 AM
It seems we've got about four to six potential classes but were not sure how many participants in each class. I think it may be time to set up a poll on the site to see what class people will enter. Then we can have the most popular classes and weed out the ones that will have a unfavorable turn out. Not that they cant be added later but we dont want to see 2 people in a class at a given location...or none.

We ahve the ideas...now let the populus decide...heck..I'll enter no matter what the response is.

madf1man
2004.12.22, 09:13 AM
Tried to read thru all this last night and fell asleep.Went thru it again this morning to get up to date.One thing is for sure is there are a ton of ways to do this.There are experianced,excellent drivers who will have ideas at one extreme and beginers at the other extreme.I think the basic format should be for the fun of it.Simple,inexpensive for a newbie..I houston we have a format that works pretty well I think and should be consisidered.

Box stock.- Upgraded tires only.Std Batteries are what ever you want.The racer will learn and adjust quickly if he has the wrong batteies.Part of the fun is learning from others.Can,t worry and should assume no one is cheating in the stock class.Tech inspections before and or after race should be fine and if someone still cheats and succeds at it oh well.We all just raced,had fun,got beat by 3 laps.Its going to happen no matter what so forget about it.

Super stock. Chassis hop ups allowed,tires,std batteries,radio upgrades,stock motors.This may sound kinda weak here for some high end drivers but its a fact that a good driver in this class will not be to much slowed than an open car due to more consitant laps times.Its the FUNNEST(key word) class we run.We can have 3 or4 drivers together till the end for a close finish. You have to be on your toes the entire time.When your finished you know just been in a race.Same thing with cheaters,tech inspections and so on.It is impossible to come up with a rule for everything that MIGHT happen.

arch2b
2004.12.22, 09:21 AM
if someone wants to post a poll, please do. jus ttry to include as many of the options mentioned here.

we all know my stance, keep it simple..... the easier it is,better it will run and the more fun people will have. and as many including myself have mentioned, it's all about the fun.

mad, i like you ideas, but for the 2nd class i would open it to non-turbo motors atleast.

it's amazing the level of feedback this thread has received. i want to thank everyone for posting their ideas and sharing your thoughts.

madf1man
2004.12.22, 09:26 AM
Now the wild stuff

Open sedan means just that OPEN.
Whatever you think you can handle.Use nitrus if you think it helps.This is the class for the experinced,knowledgeable,racer.The class FOR the cheaters so to speak so that won,t be in the stock classes.I can also say with confidence that the lap times will not be that different than super stock.An excellent driver in Super stock can tear up an average driver in open.Again its about fun and this is the class for those who like to experiment,spend money,or drive missles.

F1- we have to have F1 if not we just eliminated about 50% of the racers(a guess)F1 in houston is the biggest class. Right now this is run under the open format but we are about to change it to still an open class but with motor limits.A bone stock F1 with x-speed and pinion will be bothering the Fet F1 all thru the race.Again its about being consitant which is hard to do with a fet car.The new racer needs to know he has a chance in this class as in all above except maybe open sedan to be competative.

madf1man
2004.12.22, 09:29 AM
Believe it or not most racers just want to race.Winning is not the big priority.They want to be a part of an event,mix it up with others,have a good time and not break anything.Simple fun and lets race!!!! Thanks and hope this makes since to all concerned By the way MERRY CHRISTMAS

madf1man
2004.12.22, 09:33 AM
if someone wants to post a poll, please do. jus ttry to include as many of the options mentioned here.

we all know my stance, keep it simple..... the easier it is,better it will run and the more fun people will have. and as many including myself have mentioned, it's all about the fun.

mad, i like you ideas, but for the 2nd class i would open it to non-turbo motors atleast.

it's amazing the level of feedback this thread has received. i want to thank everyone for posting their ideas and sharing your thoughts.

Thats what I down right argued about here locally at first but quickly learned it works great.Kinda takes the cheating abiltity away and again it makes for CLOSE racing.Ever been in a close race for 30 or 40 laps? Try it,its a rush.Eyes tearing finger cramping kinda thing!!!!!!

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.22, 10:38 AM
I'd like to race my F1 too...I've never ran it with another F1 on the track.

If you cheat and win its gotta feel pretty ****ty....and if you cheat and lose...well thats karma for you.

brian
2004.12.22, 10:42 AM
I'd like to race my F1 too...I've never ran it with another F1 on the track.

If you cheat and win its gotta feel pretty ****ty....and if you cheat and lose...well thats karma for you.

I've been racing for 10 years, the guys that cheat and win never feel bad about it :P or at least they don't show it.

It seems like every time I turn to the speed channel they're busting some nascar driver for cheating in some way.

ruf
2004.12.22, 10:43 AM
IMO, non-turbo motors are like 19T class in 1/10. Too much power advantage to be considered "stock".

ruf
2004.12.22, 10:45 AM
M******** on TQ pace! Someboy have to do SOMETHING about it! :D

arch2b
2004.12.22, 04:37 PM
thansk to tnb for posting a link to the pn series. i think these are a great starting point as their objectives seem to be the same as what were are doing here.

http://www.pnracing.us/2005worldcup.htm

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.22, 04:42 PM
thansk to tnb for posting a link to the pn series. i think these are a great starting point as their objectives seem to be the same as what were are doing here.

http://www.pnracing.us/2005worldcup.htm
I like these rules...nice and simple and maybe create some form of uniformity.

I'd only say add a class for people like pro-z to race their scale kits or homebrews. Maybe an OL and F1 class if there are enough people.

Not to change the subject but where is the PN cup being held?

TNB
2004.12.22, 04:50 PM
Not to change the subject but where is the PN cup being held?
It's my understanding that numerous regionals may be held in Europe, Asia and in the USA. It's also my understanding that the USA may also host the finals, so I guess instead of the US winner going to Europe this year, the OCONUS champs may get to come to the US.

ruknd@aol.com
2004.12.22, 04:51 PM
It's my understanding that numerous regionals may be held in Europe, Asia and in the USA. It's also my understanding that the USA may also host the finals, so I guess instead of the US winner going to Europe this year, the OCONUS champs may get to come to the US.
sorry to continue the branch off but any idea on the US locals?

Maybe we should attend a PN race to see what the rules are like before creating our own?

TNB
2004.12.22, 04:56 PM
It is my understanding that PN Racing is currently seeking hosts in the USA. It is also my understanding that one of the regional races will be held in Rialto, California. Any other information that I may currently have has not yet been confirmed.

arch2b
2004.12.22, 05:04 PM
yes, i would agree that other chassis types should be included ONLY if there are a required min. entries for those chassis types. obviously, not all locations will have the same turnout in terms of each chassis type. so, each location will likely have varying number of classes.

TNB
2004.12.22, 05:19 PM
How much time is there in a day? 10 classes times 10 minutes equals 100 minutes.... Number of heats.... Number of mains.... One day?

Also, if Joe Blow travels to Host Track X and is the only one with a Pro-Z, he can't race. Meanwhile, John Doe races his Pro-Z at Host Track Y. Now, Joe Blow doesn't even have a time to compare with anyone and even if Joe Blow was allowed to run by himself, then his lap times would probably be much better that John Doe who raced his Pro-Z against five other racers.

At the same time, even running a IW02 Pro with a MR-01 could create havoac since the boards are different though the chassis may be "90%" similar.

Basically, whoever actually writes the rules for this race needs to set them in stone to make it fair all the way around and if certain R/Cs are excluded, so be it.

arch2b
2004.12.22, 05:36 PM
well, k. had 3 chassis types and managed to pull it off in one day at every location. if they can, so can we.

also, if only 2 pro-z kits show up, your right, no race for them. that's how it goes. it would have been the same way at the k. series as well if there were too few for f1 or overland. it would suck even more for those of us who have many of each chassis type and have nothing to do with them. i ahppen to really enjoy overland racing and i know tons of peopl have overlands yet they are not included in the pn rules. same as f1 which is very popular in some regions. it just seems stupid to not allow for other classes if enough show up. i'd rather bring my overland with the chance enough others do to than to not bring it all.

the whole iwaver thing really throws a kink in everything. i guess the upgraded versions could run in the pro class and the regular in the open :confused: not sure what to do with them but it would be bad to exclude them as many people will likely be getting them due to their price.

TNB
2004.12.22, 06:18 PM
Is this simple or not?

Stock Class - MR01/IW01/MR015/MR02/IW02 (non-Pro Versions Iwavers)
- Stock PCBs, Motors, Radios, & Chassis
- Rechargeable AAA NiMH batteries (850 limit)
- No option parts allowed other than any rubber tires, wheel nuts, or bearings
- Kyosho or Iwaver bodies only

Mod Class - MR01/IW01/MR015/MR02/IW02/IW01 Pro/IW02 Pro
- PCB, FET upgrades and Motor changes allowed
- Rechargeable AAA NiMH batteries (850 limit)
- Any rubber tires or Foams
- Kyosho or Iwaver bodies only
- Any transmitter radio
- Any brand option parts as long as stock-type manufacturer chassis (colored ok)
---> Hand out motors?????

F1 Class - Same as Mod Class above.
OL/MMT/IW04 Class - Same as Mod Class above.

Outlaw Class (Includes Xmod, ABC, whatever in Mini-Z Scale)
- PCB, FET upgrades and Motor changes allowed
- Rechargeable AAA NiMH batteries (850 limit)
--- unless someone wants to take responsibility for any LiON-LiPo mishaps)
- Any rubber tires or Foams
- Any type body or transmitter radio
- Any brand option parts and chassis as long as Mini-Z Scale
---> Hand out motors?????

DAMZer
2004.12.22, 06:30 PM
I like it!! :D

arch2b
2004.12.22, 08:59 PM
tnb- best to date! i like it :D

clubberlang
2004.12.22, 10:50 PM
The only thing I would add to the rules is an Xmods box stock class. You might be able to attract a lot of new faces. Other than that it looks good!

TNB
2004.12.23, 12:29 AM
New faces? I still recall the 2 AM finish in Palmdale when just Kyosho Mini-Zs were running and I'll be damned if I'll wait around to watch a special class created just for a bunch of stock Xmods while the drivers try to make it around a large RCP Track--which brings up another question if Xmods are allowed to dictate the race... Will the host track then be forced to use the smooth side of the RCP Track to accommodate Xmod owners like the XRL Tournament or will the more textured side of the RCP Track be used as has been in the 2004 Kyosho Mini-Z-Cup regional events and both the 2003/2004 finals? Quite frankly, it's my opinion if an Xmod owner wants to race, then he or she can race in the Outlaw class since the Xmod doesn't have a chassis like either the Kyosho Mini-Z or the Iwaver.

michvin
2004.12.23, 01:55 AM
X-mods has their own cup - to remind, mini-z not allowed. Let them race their races and we'll race cars. Besides, X-mod won't be able to turn on RCP track. even wide is kind of problematic for the huge turning radius X-mod has.

mini-z
2004.12.23, 11:38 AM
tnb- best to date! i like it :D

I agree! :)

TNB
2004.12.23, 12:17 PM
Thanks. I tried to make the class setups both simple and fair as well as very easy for the tech inspections. After all, many may just freak out when some tech inspector tears apart their car to ensure it was in the correct class or that no cheating was involved.

michvin
2004.12.23, 12:52 PM
Is this simple or not?

Stock Class - MR01/IW01/MR015/MR02/IW02 (non-Pro Versions Iwavers)
- Stock PCBs, Motors, Radios, & Chassis
- Rechargeable AAA NiMH batteries (850 limit)
- No option parts allowed other than any rubber tires, wheel nuts, or bearings
- Kyosho or Iwaver bodies only

Mod Class - MR01/IW01/MR015/MR02/IW02/IW01 Pro/IW02 Pro
- PCB, FET upgrades and Motor changes allowed
- Rechargeable AAA NiMH batteries (850 limit)
- Any rubber tires or Foams
- Kyosho or Iwaver bodies only
- Any transmitter radio
- Any brand option parts as long as stock-type manufacturer chassis (colored ok)
---> Hand out motors?????

F1 Class - Same as Mod Class above.
OL/MMT/IW04 Class - Same as Mod Class above.

Outlaw Class (Includes Xmod, ABC, whatever in Mini-Z Scale)
- PCB, FET upgrades and Motor changes allowed
- Rechargeable AAA NiMH batteries (850 limit)
--- unless someone wants to take responsibility for any LiON-LiPo mishaps)
- Any rubber tires or Foams
- Any type body or transmitter radio
- Any brand option parts and chassis as long as Mini-Z Scale
---> Hand out motors?????

Love this proposal, with one question (of course! :) ) about stock class
New IW LCD Tx. Is it considered stock? If yes, comparable Tx on the mini-z should be allowed as well. This Tx has some features that give very considerable advantage to its owners over the stock mini-z transmitter.

TNB
2004.12.23, 01:01 PM
Love this proposal, with one question (of course! :) ) about stock class
New IW LCD Tx. Is it considered stock? If yes, comparable Tx on the mini-z should be allowed as well. This Tx has some features that give very considerable advantage to its owners over the stock mini-z transmitter.
If the new programmable IW transmitter ships with both the IW02 and IW02 Pro, then the transmitter needs to be excluded from the stock IW02 class if someone wants to race an IW02 in the stock class, otherwise they need to be placed in the Mod Class. As an alternative, they could be permitted to use a stock Mini-Z transmitter radio.

The main idea is to not allow programmable transmitter radios.

michvin
2004.12.23, 01:40 PM
If the new programmable IW transmitter ships with both the IW02 and IW02 Pro, then the transmitter needs to be excluded from the stock IW02 class if someone wants to race an IW02 in the stock class, otherwise they need to be placed in the Mod Class. As an alternative, they could be permitted to use a stock Mini-Z transmitter radio.

The main idea is to not allow programmable transmitter radios.

sounds fair

clubberlang
2004.12.23, 05:57 PM
New faces? I still recall the 2 AM finish in Palmdale when just Kyosho Mini-Zs were running and I'll be damned if I'll wait around to watch a special class created just for a bunch of stock Xmods while the drivers try to make it around a large RCP Track--which brings up another question if Xmods are allowed to dictate the race... Will the host track then be forced to use the smooth side of the RCP Track to accommodate Xmod owners like the XRL Tournament or will the more textured side of the RCP Track be used as has been in the 2004 Kyosho Mini-Z-Cup regional events and both the 2003/2004 finals? Quite frankly, it's my opinion if an Xmod owner wants to race, then he or she can race in the Outlaw class since the Xmod doesn't have a chassis like either the Kyosho Mini-Z or the Iwaver.


Wow, that desert heat getting to you? Did anyone say Xmods would dictate the race?

Really, get a grip dude.

TNB
2004.12.23, 06:04 PM
Wow, that desert heat getting to you? Did anyone say Xmods would dictate the race?

Really, get a grip dude.
If I took you literally, I'd write that no one "said" *&(# since this is a message board. As someone else already pointed out--there is the XRL especially for Xmods. And as I pointed out, the XRL was held using the other side of the RCP Track and Xmods don't have the same type of chassis. Perhaps, you should get a grip or at least realize those facts.

revzalot
2004.12.23, 06:52 PM
So far so good. But what if I have to use my M8 becuase I'm a lefty. Would you allow M8s to be allowed to be used in all classes due to being left handed?

TNB
2004.12.23, 06:55 PM
So far so good. But what if I have to use my M8 becuase I'm a lefty. Would you allow M8s to be allowed to be used in all classes due to being left handed?
They never did in the Mini-Z-Cup. I knew several lefties who either redrilled the radio or flipped it upside down and drove.

clubberlang
2004.12.23, 08:23 PM
If I took you literally, I'd write that no one "said" *&(# since this is a message board. As someone else already pointed out--there is the XRL especially for Xmods. And as I pointed out, the XRL was held using the other side of the RCP Track and Xmods don't have the same type of chassis. Perhaps, you should get a grip or at least realize those facts.


Perhaps my grammar is lacking. You still understood my message, since you replied.

To me tracks surfaces are irrelevant. The track is the same for everybody.

The XRL is a marketing event. My thinking was that since they are popular, and close to the same size, Xmods might be fun to run as well.

With all that said, the real point of the original message was to MAKE A SUGGESTION.
The response would have been more appropriate had I said we should smear feces on the drivers mouths as they got onto the drivers stand. Get a grip.

TNB
2004.12.23, 08:38 PM
I did include Xmods in the proposed "outlaw" class, especially since they have a different chassis. However, I now have a "grip" as you keep putting it and have ruled out hosting an event. To that I thank you.

arch2b
2004.12.23, 08:43 PM
your kidding right.... you would base your decision not to host an event based on a reply on the forum? :confused: your loss over something rather foolish really. if you choose not to host one for other reasons, that fine and in the ends it your track your choice.

TNB
2004.12.23, 08:47 PM
Most of the track owners I know tend to complain about how much effort they put into hosting races yet the racers always seem to complain about something. Itís either the fees, the location, the track, the prices, and so on. Quite frankly, if it werenít for some of the people Iíve already met racing, I could care less about attending most races and would simply enjoy running with the locals and the occasional visitors from out-of-state. Let someone else host the races, draft and finalize the rules, and purchase the equipment.

arch2b
2004.12.23, 08:48 PM
very vaild points, i'll give you that :p there is something to be said for the ease of casual racing with friends

TNB
2004.12.23, 08:51 PM
I'm glad you agree and if the locals (and NML if he shows) end up running until 2AM Saturday morning again, at least we had fun. No fuss, no mess, and no complaints--except about going home anyway. ;)

wcrotty
2004.12.24, 12:35 AM
TNB,

I know what you mean. It happens to us all the time. All the work we put into holding racing events and people don't even care.

I was in the same boat as you. Pissed because of all the different people talking about what the rules "should be" because that is what they want.

Arch, TNB
I think the people that are going to host the events should talk about the rules. We can take peoples suggestions into consideration but ultimately it's the event host who have to give the ok. So arch, yourself, other hosts, and i should figure out what they will be and then post them here. People will either like the rules or not like the rules. This will just go on for ever if we don't.

everyone,
We are just trying to start some thing so people can have fun racing toys.

arch2b
2004.12.24, 12:42 AM
wcrotty- ygm

michvin
2004.12.24, 01:01 AM
TNB,

I know what you mean. It happens to us all the time. All the work we put into holding racing events and people don't even care.

I was in the same boat as you. Pissed because of all the different people talking about what the rules "should be" because that is what they want.

Arch, TNB
I think the people that are going to host the events should talk about the rules. We can take peoples suggestions into consideration but ultimately it's the event host who have to give the ok. So arch, yourself, other hosts, and i should figure out what they will be and then post them here. People will either like the rules or not like the rules. This will just go on for ever if we don't.

everyone,
We are just trying to start some thing so people can have fun racing toys.
thats wise.
if you get into dicussion you can never get out of it.

Spoon
2005.01.19, 02:57 PM
Is this simple or not?

Stock Class - MR01/IW01/MR015/MR02/IW02 (non-Pro Versions Iwavers)
- Stock PCBs, Motors, Radios, & Chassis
- Rechargeable AAA NiMH batteries (850 limit)
- No option parts allowed other than any rubber tires, wheel nuts, or bearings
- Kyosho or Iwaver bodies only

I would change two things about this stock class.

First, I would give drivers the option to run a non-stock H-plate. They are fairly inexpensive and the stock one breaks pretty easily. I broke mine within a week, I went carbon and haven't looked back.

Second, I would say no bearings. I think they are a pretty significant upgrade and I think they should be reserved for mod.



Mod Class - MR01/IW01/MR015/MR02/IW02/IW01 Pro/IW02 Pro
- PCB, FET upgrades and Motor changes allowed
- Rechargeable AAA NiMH batteries (850 limit)
- Any rubber tires or Foams
- Kyosho or Iwaver bodies only
- Any transmitter radio
- Any brand option parts as long as stock-type manufacturer chassis (colored ok)
---> Hand out motors?????

This looks pretty good "IMO" maybe no PCB/FET upgrades (save it for outlaw) but allow any motor mods. I think busting out the soldering iron bumps you to another level. As far as the option parts...anything manufactured for (bolt-on) use on the mini-z.



F1 Class - Same as Mod Class above.
OL/MMT/IW04 Class - Same as Mod Class above.

Outlaw Class (Includes Xmod, ABC, whatever in Mini-Z Scale)
- PCB, FET upgrades and Motor changes allowed
- Rechargeable AAA NiMH batteries (850 limit)
--- unless someone wants to take responsibility for any LiON-LiPo mishaps)
- Any rubber tires or Foams
- Any type body or transmitter radio
- Any brand option parts and chassis as long as Mini-Z Scale
---> Hand out motors?????
These look great! I am sorry if I am ressurecting a dead post but I have been thinking about rules a lot lately. The rules at our track are a little inconsistent. I am just trying to see what rules other people run with.

-spoon

davkin
2005.01.19, 08:50 PM
First, I would give drivers the option to run a non-stock H-plate

I agree with that one. More than being fragile they give inconsistent performance.

Second, I would say no bearings. I think they are a pretty significant upgrade and I think they should be reserved for mod

I disagree with that one. I consider bearings a must, not upgrade, even moreso on a Mini-Z. The stock bushings are just horrible and degrade very quickly resulting in very inconsistent handling. They can be bought for as little as $9, so they are not all that expensive and single-handedly contribute more to the performance and reliability of a Mini-Z than any other upgrade.

This looks pretty good "IMO" maybe no PCB/FET upgrades (save it for outlaw) but allow any motor mods

I agree with that one as well. Save the fet upgrades for an unlimited class.

As far as the option parts...anything manufactured for (bolt-on) use on the mini-z.

I also agree with that one. No custom or prototype parts, again I think that kind of stuff belongs in the unlimited class.

David

TITANIUM
2005.01.19, 09:58 PM
What is it with those that do not understand stock class?

"Stock class" meaning the components from the box. :eek:

soapbox time...There is joy in getting a stock class car to be faster than the others out on the track.
There are those who just donít put forth the effort to make a stock car go fast using the lesser parts.
Not to mention the fact that better drivers raise to the top, due to the adaptability of overcoming the challenges in a race. (Due to what a stock car is made up with..)

Thank you and goodnight.....

THRC Dan
2005.01.19, 09:58 PM
David those are all valid comments. We have just about completed all of the class rules for the minicup. The folks forming these rules are well qualified racers and we have taken into consideration many of the comments provided on this forum.

We stuck with simplicity and the best shot to make things competitive and provide a class that would suit the most amount of racers. The key was to get something out there to start with, run a race and see what falls out. Were confident that things will be great for everyone.

We are finalizing the final class and the entire class makeup will be posted soon. Then its on to the rest of the program getting ready for the first race in June!

pHREDD
2005.01.19, 11:02 PM
THRC Dan, our group (Chattanooga Mini-z) is ok with whatever rules you guys come up with. I have stayed out of this discussion on purpose and have been watching everyone hash it out. We will have fun racing no matter what. Let us know when the rules are final and the south east boys are ready to play.

arch2b
2007.12.03, 08:56 PM
ruf, for example... here is a long thread on racing class discussion which i think the additions of ad band and 2.4 raise the question or at the very least make the arguement much more relevant and pressing and worthy of continued debate