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View Full Version : Race Event - Sunday - 03/26/2006


AtlRC
2006.03.15, 07:53 PM
Location:
------------
Alpharetta, GA
E-mail me for directions and contact info.

Time:
-------
Doors Open: 12:00pm (if you’d like to show up earlier, please contact me)
Racing Starts: 2:00pm

Classes:
-----------
1/28th Open
1/28th Stock (limited to stock motor and 4AAA batteries, any chassis mods OK)
1/28th Novice (same as 1/28th stock but limited to novice level drivers only)
1/18th Open (may or may not be run depending upon who shows up)

Notes:
---------
- Core lap counting system.
- Custom track.
- Audio and video systems for the automated sounds, announcements and race stats display.
- We will run 3 qualifiers for each class.
- We will run double or triple A Mains.
- Qualifiers and Mains will be 5 minutes.
- Refreshments available.

Use this "Race Event" thread to discuss things such as who will be attending and any other specific info pertaining to the race. After the event is over, we can continue to discuss any issues / suggestions / improvements for the next race. The results, and possibly pictures, will then be posted to this same thread.

If you think you’ll be attending, please post here so everyone will have an idea of expected attendance.

Hope to see you there!

AtlRC
2006.03.15, 08:37 PM
Wyat and I will be here to race. Andy will not be able to make this one.

Shaun
2006.03.16, 10:03 PM
I want to come up on the 26th. Just not sure if I can get off work.
We'll see.

Mzfreak
2006.03.19, 05:01 PM
Actually i think I can because I'm leaving the thursday of the week so I can probably come.


andy

Shaun
2006.03.19, 07:29 PM
Sounds good Andy. I talked to Chad and he said he should be able to make it. Any word on Billy, Alex and Jay?

Mzfreak
2006.03.19, 08:05 PM
no didnt hear from them

AtlRC
2006.03.19, 09:42 PM
Sounds good Andy. I talked to Chad and he said he should be able to make it. Any word on Billy, Alex and Jay?

Cool Andy! Billy said he plans on being here. Jay is a good possibility. I think Alex is planning on attending too.

You going to be able to make it Alex?

Shaun
2006.03.20, 11:41 AM
Looks like it's going to be a nice turnout for Sunday. We gonna run all Stock. Or do you want to split into Stock and Open?

Mzfreak
2006.03.20, 09:51 PM
okay guys i can't come. I thought i was goingt o ny next week but turns out to my this Thurs so cant come.

andy

TheApe
2006.03.22, 04:34 PM
I am not sure if i can come, i still do not have a functional car, though patrick said he can set me up with one....i dont know if i am free sunday yet or not.

bemoore
2006.03.22, 04:54 PM
I still plan on being there.

Billy

AtlRC
2006.03.22, 04:55 PM
I am not sure if i can come, i still do not have a functional car, though patrick said he can set me up with one....i dont know if i am free sunday yet or not.

I still have a car available... let me know if you can make it and I'll try to save it for you. I may have other's interested in using it, so let me know ASAP. Hope you can make it!

Is there any way to fix your board? I know you said a pad for the FET lifted off the board. Can it be glued down or a "tiny" wire routed back to a good trace?

TheApe
2006.03.23, 07:10 AM
Well, the trace that the foot lifted off of goes inder the big black plastic block, so i am not sure where it goes, i could easaly do that, but it's not the best thing to do, especially with an FET foot. I am not sure about teh glue, as far as i know, you cant, but i dont know, i am just going to order a stock PCB from atomic mods, since they are teh only place i know that carries them. I might just buy a new car....

Shaun
2006.03.23, 08:04 PM
Patrick - How's 10 - 11 am arrival time sound for Sunday?

I need some practice. It's been a while. :)

AtlRC
2006.03.23, 10:18 PM
That's fine Shaun. Glad you can make it.

Alex, I do have a car available to use, just let me know if you need it. I also have one more of the Ferrari F-50's for sale for $120.00... but you won't hurt my feelings if you buy one somewhere else. I don't mind having one sit around here for sale. Let me know if you want to use (or buy) one.

Shaun
2006.03.24, 10:35 AM
That's fine Shaun. Glad you can make it.


Yeah me too! I'm having Mini-Z withdrawls. :) See you Sunday.

Would you rather run STOCK or OPEN class? I vote for STOCK.

AtlRC
2006.03.24, 11:50 AM
Yeah me too! I'm having Mini-Z withdrawls. :) See you Sunday.

Would you rather run STOCK or OPEN class? I vote for STOCK.

Stock is fine... then we can invite anyone in the novice class to join us. See you then!

Shaun
2006.03.24, 12:33 PM
Stock is fine... then we can invite anyone in the novice class to join us. See you then!

We might have to lend Chad a stock motor. I think he said he didn't have one. I'll bring a few with me.

TruReaper(Chad)
2006.03.24, 06:43 PM
Well guys dont worry about me being there. Once again my work is sending me to Americus Ga at Ga southwestern University to do cabling in the new dorms they are building.... I wish i could come and run. I miss running my z's with you guys. And i want to see the new design :( Shaun i still have the tires for you. And let me know on the IC3's. Well guys hope you all have fun and Hopefully my work will stop sending me out of town so I can play once again.

Shaun
2006.03.24, 07:00 PM
Chad - Sorry to hear you won't be able to make it Sunday. I'm still waiting on the price of the IC3's to go down even more. Right now they are $5 per 4-pack. How many AAA and/or AA packs do you want?

TruReaper(Chad)
2006.03.24, 07:33 PM
i want at least 4 AAA packs but if the price is lower i might take more...so just keep me informed please

Shaun
2006.03.24, 07:51 PM
i want at least 4 AAA packs but if the price is lower i might take more...so just keep me informed please

Well..........since you said please. :) I'll keep you posted.

Shaun
2006.03.24, 09:52 PM
Patrick - Did you get your MX-A and some alloy steering plates?

Right now my RM car has toe-out. I need to put that +1 alloy plate I let you use last time on it to make it less twitchy and track better. Every steering plate I have is toe-out. Which doesn't really help.

AtlRC
2006.03.25, 11:24 PM
Patrick - Did you get your MX-A and some alloy steering plates?

Right now my RM car has toe-out. I need to put that +1 alloy plate I let you use last time on it to make it less twitchy and track better. Every steering plate I have is toe-out. Which doesn't really help.

Hey Shaun,

Yes, I did get the MX-A and I love it (just like the 2 FM versions that I have). I didn't get any new steering plates yet, but you certainly can have it back. I'll make one of the ones I have work... no problem. I'll be ordering some steering rods and probably a rear MM pod for our next race. See you tomorrow.

AtlRC
2006.03.26, 05:59 PM
Novice A-Main (http://www.atlrcmotorsports.com/amrcr-results/28thscalenovice-032606-amain.htm)

Stock A-Main (http://www.atlrcmotorsports.com/amrcr-results/28thscalestock-032606-amain.htm)

All Drivers A-Main (http://www.atlrcmotorsports.com/amrcr-results/28thscaleadddrivers-032606-amain.htm)

Shaun
2006.03.26, 10:14 PM
Had fun as always. Looking forward to the next race. Got my MM car to handle close to the way I like it. My RM car is still a tad too loose. Have to work on it some more. Next time I'm gonna try a different motor in the MM. Going to shoot for a 5.1 lap! Right now 5.25 is the fast lap for STOCK.

Shaun
2006.03.27, 01:12 PM
Hey Patrick - I figured out why my car didn't want to get around the main left hand turn in the NOODLE! It seemed to push while turning left. I just checked to see if my steering radius was the same when turning right and left. It wasn't! It had far more steering when turning right. It would barely turn around on my RCP track when turning left. So I adjusted my trusty MX-A end points and now I have equal steering in both directions. :)

Why didn't I think of this yesterday?

AtlRC
2006.03.27, 07:59 PM
Hey Patrick - I figured out why my car didn't want to get around the main left hand turn in the NOODLE! It seemed to push while turning left. I just checked to see if my steering radius was the same when turning right and left. It wasn't! It had far more steering when turning right. It would barely turn around on my RCP track when turning left. So I adjusted my trusty MX-A end points and now I have equal steering in both directions. :)

Why didn't I think of this yesterday?

Cool! That's a good point. I've always checked my end points for maximum throw on my 1/10th scale cars... but I didn't check it on my Mini-Z either. I'll have to check mine. OH!!! Wait a minute, that probably why you beat me (every darn time)!!! My silly end points were not set right! Just wait till next race! ;)

Shaun
2006.03.27, 08:43 PM
Patrick - You going to have your MM VDS car ready for the next race? Can't wait until we have a field of VDS bodied Z's bulldozing eachother around the track. Let me know if you plan on placing an order with RC mart. There are a few things I'd like to get.

Think I'm going to try my X-Speed motor next time. Just a little slower than the 3Racing BB motor but faster than the ol' Stock motor. For me slower is faster! Maybe we could run a Pro Stock Class. Any stock FET safe motor. :) We could make a list of legal motors.

Keep me posted on the status of a possible weekday race.

AtlRC
2006.03.27, 10:09 PM
Patrick - You going to have your MM VDS car ready for the next race? Can't wait until we have a field of VDS bodied Z's bulldozing eachother around the track. Let me know if you plan on placing an order with RC mart. There are a few things I'd like to get.

Think I'm going to try my X-Speed motor next time. Just a little slower than the 3Racing BB motor but faster than the ol' Stock motor. For me slower is faster! Maybe we could run a Pro Stock Class. Any stock FET safe motor. :) We could make a list of legal motors.

Keep me posted on the status of a possible weekday race.

Yes, I want to place an order soon. I'll try to have my MM car ready. Let me know what you'd like me to order... if anyone else needs anything, let me know as well. I'll need to know ASAP. I'd like to order tomorrow, or by Wed at the latest.

Pro-Stock class sounds good to me... however if we just say "Open", and somebody wants to run some freaky fast motor, who cares... I'd just wish them luck! But we can call it whatever... we should talk about it more next race.

signal21
2006.03.27, 11:56 PM
Yes, I want to place an order soon. I'll try to have my MM car ready. Let me know what you'd like me to order... if anyone else needs anything, let me know as well. I'll need to know ASAP. I'd like to order tomorrow, or by Wed at the latest.

Pro-Stock class sounds good to me... however if we just say "Open", and somebody wants to run some freaky fast motor, who cares... I'd just wish them luck! But we can call it whatever... we should talk about it more next race.

hey patrick, its marvin. my MR-02 MM should be coming in by the end of the week. it looks like you guys have a lot of fun. i hope to go race with you guys someday. i dont know what upgrades to get for the mini, i'd like to get in on that rc mart order. i just dont know what to get. maybe i should run it completely stock until a get a little better before i put anything on there. what do you guys think?

AtlRC
2006.03.28, 11:36 AM
hey patrick, its marvin. my MR-02 MM should be coming in by the end of the week. it looks like you guys have a lot of fun. i hope to go race with you guys someday. i dont know what upgrades to get for the mini, i'd like to get in on that rc mart order. i just dont know what to get. maybe i should run it completely stock until a get a little better before i put anything on there. what do you guys think?

Most importantly are bearings and tires. Tires are a must and bearings are recommended. I would buy these first.

The rest of this is all optional and not required to get going. You can be very competitive without this stuff. However, when you want to begin fine tuning the car, you may want to start buying things like: A rear damper plate system. Steering blocks with a bit of camber. There is a set of plastic ones that come with blocks for 3 different degrees. Metal are more expensive and sometimes you have to buy each different degree seperately. You may also want to buy a set of steering rods so you can have different degrees of toe-in. These are things that may improve performance. There are many other things that are nice, like aluminum rear motor pod (motor mount), etc... but these are mostly just nice upgrades that look nice, last longer, and sometimes give you more tuning options like being able to mount different types of motors, etc... There are lots more parts to consider. I've only tried to covered most of the major upgrade parts.

So I would recommend bearings and tires initially... and if you have a bunch of $$$ to blow right now, go ahead and buy a few hop-up parts.

-Patrick

signal21
2006.03.28, 03:12 PM
i read that mzr dry bearings are the best but i dont know what type of tires to get.

Shaun
2006.03.28, 07:34 PM
My RC mart items:
1 - GPM (#MR2049/I2) Alloy Steering Plate (2Deg Toe0in) (BK) For MR02
1 - GPM (#MR2888AR08G) Rubber Rear Slick Tire (For ORI) 8Deg
1 - *Xtra Speed (#XS2-2/N) -Mini-Z High Grip Tire Standard 25Deg
1 - Tamiya (#53664) TT-01 Aluminum Motor Heat Sink

Thanks Patrick

If you plan on getting the Atomic VDS body you might want to get an extra front clip. I have noticed small cracks on mine. Couldn't hurt to have a spare.
ATOMIC (#AR125P) VDS Body Parts Set

Shaun
2006.03.28, 08:16 PM
hey patrick, its marvin. my MR-02 MM should be coming in by the end of the week. it looks like you guys have a lot of fun. i hope to go race with you guys someday. i dont know what upgrades to get for the mini, i'd like to get in on that rc mart order. i just dont know what to get. maybe i should run it completely stock until a get a little better before i put anything on there. what do you guys think?

Look forward to meeting you Marvin. Good choice on the MM. ;) Which car did you order?

Things to get first:
- Bearings
- Softer Tires (8 or 10 degree rears)
- CF H-plate (soft, medium, hard) Gives you some tuning options.
- Maybe a Ball-Diff (not necessary but good for fine tuning)

signal21
2006.03.28, 08:53 PM
Look forward to meeting you Marvin. Good choice on the MM. ;) Which car did you order?

Things to get first:
- Bearings
- Softer Tires (8 or 10 degree rears)
- CF H-plate (soft, medium, hard) Gives you some tuning options.
- Maybe a Ball-Diff (not necessary but good for fine tuning)

i got a Lamborghini Murcielago. i wanted a JGTC car but they didnt have any in stock. what kind of tires should i get for the front?
are there recommended brands for the parts you listed?

Shaun
2006.03.28, 09:03 PM
For the front I would use around 20 degree. Slick or radial. It really depends on your driving style and set-up. I run a slightly harder front tire to make the car a little more stable.

I like the GPM and Iwaver tires.
The MZ bearings are very nice.
Kyosho/Iwaver/Atomic Ball-diffs
CF H-Plates - Topcad/3racing/Kyosho

signal21
2006.03.28, 09:33 PM
For the front I would use around 20 degree. Slick or radial. It really depends on your driving style and set-up. I run a slightly harder front tire to make the car a little more stable.

I like the GPM and Iwaver tires.
The MZ bearings are very nice.
Kyosho/Iwaver/Atomic Ball-diffs
CF H-Plates - Topcad/3racing/Kyosho

whats the difference between ssg and the cf?
do you race at tfb? i'm hoping to go there sometime too.

Shaun
2006.03.29, 10:46 AM
whats the difference between ssg and the cf?
do you race at tfb? i'm hoping to go there sometime too.

Besides the way they look, I'm not really sure. Sorry :(

Yes, I race Electric TC at TFB.

AtlRC
2006.03.29, 12:23 PM
I'm going to place the order today.

Shaun, does ****** (that Chinese place) have bearings??? I can't find them. I guess I'll order some from minizracer.com.

Marvin, is there anything specific you would like me to order? You could get bearings and tires (and some other stuff) from minizracer.com if you'd rather do that (shipping is much cheaper anyway). Let me know.

Alex, would you like me to order you a new board?

AtlRC
2006.03.29, 01:14 PM
1 - Tamiya (#53664) TT-01 Aluminum Motor Heat Sink


Shaun, I can't find this... Is this the correct part # and description?

Shaun
2006.03.29, 01:22 PM
Shaun, I can't find this... Is this the correct part # and description?

It's been removed from the site. Can you order this instead?

TOPCAD (#50337B) Wrap Around Motor Heat Sink Type II (BU)

AtlRC
2006.03.29, 01:24 PM
It's been removed from the site. Can you order this instead?

TOPCAD (#50337B) Wrap Around Motor Heat Sink Type II (BU)

It's in my cart!

Shaun
2006.03.29, 01:25 PM
They do have bearings for the Mini-Z. Click on the accessory tab on top then click on Bearing Sets. Then click on For Kyosho. I wouldn't reccomend the teflon bearing set.

Try these: Yeah Racing Bearing (#YB0001M) For Mini-Z & F-1

Shaun
2006.03.29, 02:53 PM
Would anyone be intrested in Set-Up Sheets for Mini-Z's? You could keep track of your set-ups and make note of any changes you make to your car.

Here's what I've got so far. What do you think? I know it's not perfect but it's functional.
http://www.imagehosting123.com/user_images/shaunmac/minizsheets.jpg

signal21
2006.03.29, 04:26 PM
I'm going to place the order today.

Shaun, does ****** (that Chinese place) have bearings??? I can't find them. I guess I'll order some from minizracer.com.

Marvin, is there anything specific you would like me to order? You could get bearings and tires (and some other stuff) from minizracer.com if you'd rather do that (shipping is much cheaper anyway). Let me know.

Alex, would you like me to order you a new board?

yeah, i'd like to get some bearings, tires, cf H-plates (the set of 3).

whats that CF you put on the top of the mini-z? is that the damper set?

i dont really know the specific brand but i want to get quality stuff. are you ordering from rc mart or minizracer? i'll find out some more and post brands and what not.

Shaun
2006.03.29, 05:26 PM
yeah, i'd like to get some bearings, tires, cf H-plates (the set of 3).

whats that CF you put on the top of the mini-z? is that the damper set?


These plates are the ones that I use. TOPCAD (#10551) Graphite H-Plate For MR02/015 MM Chassis

The MZ bearings seem to be the best. But for the money these are pretty good. *Yeah Racing Bearing (#YB0166M) For Kyosho AWD Mini-Z

The plate on top is part of the damper system. Atomic and 3Racing have a nice disk damper system for the MM car.

Mzfreak
2006.03.29, 07:16 PM
Hey, I also would like some parts. I'll take this gpm diff.

http://www.******.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=144_21_757_71_466&products_id=5051

Part #- #DMR21008S

Mzfreak
2006.03.29, 07:17 PM
http://www.******.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=144_21_757_71_466&products_id=5051

Shaun
2006.03.29, 08:29 PM
Andy - You going to be able to make it to the next race?

Mzfreak
2006.03.29, 09:08 PM
I don't know. Maybe

signal21
2006.03.29, 09:36 PM
patrick could you order these parts for me if its not too late.

TOPCAD (#10551) Graphite H-Plate For MR02/015 MM Chassis

ATOMIC (#AR15SB) Damper Plate System for MM Chassis (SSG Ver.)

2 of these: GPM (#MR2888AR08G) Rubber Rear Slick Tire (For ORI) 8Deg

*Xtra Speed (#XS2-2/N) -Mini-Z High Grip Tire Standard 25Deg

AtlRC
2006.03.30, 12:32 PM
Order has been placed. I think I got everything for everyone. It should be here before Sunday 4/9 (next race day). I'm guessing it should be here mid next week.

Shaun: You may want to add "Camber" to the setup sheet. It looks nice!

Shaun
2006.03.30, 02:03 PM
Order has been placed. I think I got everything for everyone. It should be here before Sunday 4/9 (next race day). I'm guessing it should be here mid next week.

Shaun: You may want to add "Camber" to the setup sheet. It looks nice!

I figured the "camber" setting would go under knuckle. 1,2,3 Degree Knuckles

signal21
2006.03.30, 06:58 PM
man, i really want to race with you guys. i just got my mini-z in today.

Shaun
2006.03.30, 07:02 PM
man, i really want to race with you guys. i just got my mini-z in today.

Do you own any other RC cars?

Mzfreak
2006.03.30, 07:26 PM
Hey Partik, did you get my order? Just making sure


andy :)

Shaun
2006.03.30, 08:11 PM
Hey Partik, did you get my order? Just making sure


andy :)

When you get your GPM diff. Put a small amount of Loctite on the adjustment nut. If you don't over time the diff will loosen up on it's own.
http://www.imagehosting123.com/user_images/shaunmac/gpmdiff.jpg

AtlRC
2006.03.30, 09:12 PM
Hey Partik, did you get my order? Just making sure


andy :)

Got ya covered!

Mzfreak
2006.03.30, 10:17 PM
ok thanks guys. Shaun can I use some of your locktite for it?


andy

Shaun
2006.03.30, 10:25 PM
ok thanks guys. Shaun can I use some of your locktite for it?


andy

NO WAY!!! Get your own!! Just kidding. If I can remember to bring it, you can use it. :)

signal21
2006.03.31, 11:34 AM
Do you own any other RC cars?

yeah, i've got a tc4 ft, mr4t sd (drift package), and an OLD hpi rs4. the rs4 is like 4-5 years old. i want to sell it

how are the GPM ball diffs compared to kyosho, etc..

Shaun
2006.03.31, 12:31 PM
yeah, i've got a tc4 ft, mr4t sd (drift package), and an OLD hpi rs4. the rs4 is like 4-5 years old. i want to sell it

how are the GPM ball diffs compared to kyosho, etc..

You should bring your TC4 up to TFB tomorrow.

The only problem I have had with the GPM diff is the adjustment nut doesn't stay tight. A little Loctite took care of that. Also, it requires more frequent cleaning than the Kyosho/Iwaver/Atomic diffs. These diffs have a lip molded onto the gear to help keep dirt out. GPM doesn't.

signal21
2006.03.31, 04:30 PM
so i used my miniz for the first time today, it seems like i have a glitching problem. when i'm around 15-20 feet away, it glitches. Even when its close i hear something that to me is minor glitching.

signal21
2006.03.31, 06:43 PM
i have to buy a transponder right? where do i get one for cheap. i only need one or 3 at most for my 2 other friend.

Shaun
2006.03.31, 07:03 PM
i have to buy a transponder right? where do i get one for cheap. i only need one or 3 at most for my 2 other friend.

How many people do you know with Mini-Z's that would like to race?

AtlRC
2006.03.31, 08:51 PM
i have to buy a transponder right? where do i get one for cheap. i only need one or 3 at most for my 2 other friend.

I can't say anything about the range problem since I've only ran mine in the basement (< 15 feet away)... but typically, you will see some steering servo chatter (at least I always have), even at close range. If you continue to have problems and you can't find any other probable cause, we can try switching out your crystals. You can even buy a set of crystals for the X-Mods at Radio Shack. They work fine and are only like $15 for I think 6 sets.

Currently, I will supply everyone with transponders to use. Eventually when we get enough people participating, I would like everyone to buy their own. I believe they will be under $10 each.

Have you talked to your friends yet? Have they seen your Z? If you'd like to bring them over again another night to check everything out, just let me know.

-Patrick

signal21
2006.03.31, 09:47 PM
Currently, I will supply everyone with transponders to use. Eventually when we get enough people participating, I would like everyone to buy their own. I believe they will be under $10 each.

Have you talked to your friends yet? Have they seen your Z? If you'd like to bring them over again another night to check everything out, just let me know.

-Patrick

where do you buy the transponders?

yeah, i've spoke to them about the Z. one of them has one and the other is in the processing of ordering one. i think bringing them to your place will seal the deal for them racing mini-z's. in fact one of them is playing with my miniz right now. yeah, i'll see if he has time to go over to your place one time. maybe when my parts come in, i'll go to your house and bring him. i'll have the money that i owe you as well. what days are best for you?

signal21
2006.03.31, 09:49 PM
How many people do you know with Mini-Z's that would like to race?

3 including me. they will be able to make it more often then i will because i'm busy every weekend. we're going to try to make it up to tfb tomorrow late in the afternoon.

Shaun
2006.03.31, 09:59 PM
3 including me. they will be able to make it more often then i will because i'm busy every weekend. we're going to try to make it up to tfb tomorrow late in the afternoon.

I'll see you there. So long as it doesn't rain us out.

AtlRC
2006.03.31, 10:18 PM
where do you buy the transponders?

yeah, i've spoke to them about the Z. one of them has one and the other is in the processing of ordering one. i think bringing them to your place will seal the deal for them racing mini-z's. in fact one of them is playing with my miniz right now. yeah, i'll see if he has time to go over to your place one time. maybe when my parts come in, i'll go to your house and bring him. i'll have the money that i owe you as well. what days are best for you?

You can try to buy the transponders from www.corespeedway.com. You have to buy a package of I think 5 for around $50 to $60. If you get some get the larger ones, not the small ones. The small ones are best for F1 cars.

I'll tell you what, when the order comes in, I'll call you and we can set up a night after that. Sound good?

arch2b
2006.03.31, 11:06 PM
you can purchase transponders from teh shop here. just look under tracks :)

techno
2006.03.31, 11:22 PM
are you guys going to run the 9th i mihgt concider coming down that way

AtlRC
2006.04.01, 09:30 AM
are you guys going to run the 9th i mihgt concider coming down that way

Yep, we're racing on the 9th. You're welcome to join us! That's quite a drive to get here, or will you be in the area on that day?

Thanks arch, I didn't see those for sale there!