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rkk
2007.02.18, 11:13 PM
got a link to the Maha MA-C9000? Nothing came up on google.

Sinister_Y
2007.02.18, 11:23 PM
http://www.mahaenergy.com/store/viewitem.asp?idproduct=423

Spoon
2007.02.19, 12:18 AM
Great! Last thing I need is another charger, but this Maha sounds like it really fills in the gaps missing with the laCrosse. The LaCrosse is still awesome but the discharge rate thing does bother me a bit.

One question...does this new Maha stop charging when the batteries are full (i.e. NO trickle charge). If so, this thing could be the Bee's Knees. :D

I just noticed that this can run off of 12v power. That's a huge deal for the integrated pit box...I may have to start working on another version. 70 bucks though...that could be a problem. :(

rkk
2007.02.19, 01:50 AM
http://www.mahaenergy.com/store/viewitem.asp?idproduct=423

Thanks for the link.

herman
2007.02.19, 05:02 AM
pardon my ignorance... idiot question coming up... but how long will it take to charge 700, 750, 850, 950, 1000 mah batts? i'm guessing it depends on what current you set it right?

shuter
2007.02.19, 10:58 AM
sinister_y - Could'nt agree more on the MH-C9000. A great charger that will properly "FORM" your new batteries. It discharges and charges them individually to properly condition them based on each batteries individual needs. It has, IMO, the most advanced electronics available for forming/charging/discharging NiMH batteries. Your batteries will love you for it.

RKK - Try "Thomas Distributing" for Powerex/Maha chargers. Great information, prices and service.

Spoon -The MH-C9000 follows the main charge with a 100mA top off charge for two hours. It then applies a 10mA trickle charge until batteries are removed. This pulse trickle charge, when properly applied, enhances battery health by breaking up crystaline formation, thereby maintaining maximum battery capacity. This is a very smart charger.

Herman - The charge rate on the MH-C9000 is programable for each battery. A charge rate of (.5C to 1C) is the recommended charge rate. For a 750 mAh intellect AAA battery that means that a charge rate of 750 mAh will charge a fully depleated battery in about 1 hour (1C). In practical usage, say during races that last a few minuites, your batteries will only be discharged a fraction of their capacity. For example, hot laps and a 8 Min. race might discharge your batteries about 50%. If they are then charged at a rate of 1C, they will be fully charged in about 1/2 hour.

I use the MH-C9000 to "FORM" new batteries. This process distributes the electorlytes evenly and prepares them to accept maximum charge capacity. It takes about 36 hours of discharging, resting, charging, resting. Each battery is constantly evaluated by the charger during this process. The cycle is repeated again and the results are compared automatically to the previous cycle and will be repaeted until each battery has reached its maximum attainable capacity. Proper charging/discharging protocol will keep them that way for a very long time. This is the only charger I could find that has these abilities other than commercial units costing hundreds of dollars.

I use the Powerex/Maha MH-C810D for charging at races. While not quite as sophisticated as the MH-C9000, the charge algorithms it uses are similar and it will charge 8 batteries at a time at a rate of about 1C. Using four or maybe six sets of batteries, you could run all day with fresh batteries. Batteries should be rested for a while after charging allowing them to stabilize before use. For those of you with travel boxes, the MH-C810D will take up no more space than two of the LaCrosse or Duracell units and will maintain battery health, keeping your batteries powerful, healthy and happy for a very long time.

arch2b
2007.02.19, 11:09 AM
shutter excellently explains many of the attractive features of this charger.

here is the info straight from the website

Four independent slots

It's like having four charger-analyzers for AA and AAA NiMH / NiCD batteries.

Large backlit LCD display

Digitally displays capacity, voltage, time and current.

Endless programming possibilities - over 10,000 ways!

29 selectable charging and discharging rate. Charging current from 0.2A to 2.0A and discharging current from 0.1A to 1.0A in 0.1A increments.

Five modes of operation

Charge: Recharges the battery at the selected rate.

Suitable for batteries used frequently.

Refresh & Analyze: Charges the battery, rest for one hour, discharge, rest again, then recharges it. Selectable charging and discharging rate.

Suitable for batteries stored for more than two weeks but less than 3 month or those showing poor performance.

Break-In: Also known as IEC capacity measurement and "Battery Forming". Charges battery at 0.1C for 16 hours, rest for one hour, discharges battery at 0.2C, then recharges again at 0.1C for 16 hours.

Suitable for new batteries and those stored for more than 3 month.

Discharge: Discharges the battery at the selected rate.

Cycle: Performs charge-discharge cycle for up to 12 times with discharge capacity stored in memory. Recharges battery after final cycle.

New ways to take care of your batteries and maximize runtime!

Battery Matching

In most devices, usually two or more batteries are used together. When batteries are used in a series, the performance is limited by the worst one. In other words, one poorly performing battery can significantly reduce the device runtime.

Battery matching refers to grouping batteries with similar “actual” capacity. To perform this, use the Refresh & Analyze mode to determine the battery capacity. Group batteries with capacity within about +/- 5% of the rated capacity.

Battery Forming

New batteries and those stored for extended period become chemically deactivated. Battery forming is a charge-discharge-charge cycle which forces a full charge into the battery at a very slow rate. This process activates the battery. In certain cases, it needs to be repeated two or three times.

Battery forming can be performed using the Break-In mode.

Delivers just the right charge

Independent negative delta V, temperature and timer protection eliminates over and undercharging.

Super light travel worldwide power supply and 12V compatible

Worldwide 100-240V switching adapter - light weight and small. Also compatible with 12V input. Will work on car when used with the optional cigarette lighter adapter.

User Manual (http://www.mahaenergy.com/download/mhc9000.pdf)

Hood
2007.02.19, 11:21 AM
I also have 2 of this charger and they have been excellent for charging and conditioning my packs. I have seen alot of problems with the LaCrosse chargers with displays not working, and charge modes not working on relatively new chargers. I was considering buying one of the 900s, but I will look into the Maha chargers more..

Thanks for the info..

See thread on this charger (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=255228#post255228)

arch2b
2007.02.19, 11:24 AM
i split the threads so that each of these units could get the proper attention without drifting into discussions on other chargers.

as hood does well, keep any references to other units brief and to the point as there are threads on these already. link to those when needed.

rharris
2007.02.19, 01:10 PM
I'm just picked up a LaCrosse V33. I've been playing with it for the pas few days trying to bring back some bad Intelects.

The LaCrosse has "Refresh" mode, where it will discharge and charge a battary untill it the capacity stablaizes.

It sounds like the thing the MH-C9000 does? How is the MaHa better?

arch2b
2007.02.19, 01:17 PM
it appears to have 2 functions that address this, refresh and analyze and cycle.

the refresh only goes thru 2 cycles where as the cycle maxs out at 12 cycles. i'm not sure how many cycles the refresh for the bc-900 goes thru at the moment as i don't have the specs infront of me.

shuter
2007.02.19, 01:21 PM
arch2b - Not sure what you mean by splitting the threads so I'll respond here. I see my post came up long after yours. Yours was not there when I started my post. I was interrupted while composing before finally finishing and posting. I would have responded a little differently after reading yours.

I agree completely about reading/researching in an attempt to sort out the details. I also found my way to some photo sites and read a great number of personal opinions and evaluations. Personally though, after wading through hours worth of these I felt they leaned toward personal biases and tended to lack definative information. More informatin on the Maha C9000 charger can be found at "Thomas Distributing". Click on picture of MH-C9000 and read the info under the tabs, "Description", "Features", and "Specs". (sorry, I do not know how to link that information into this thread) There is a great deal of information available there. Additional information was gained by talking directly with the tech rep at Powerex/Maha. The use of pulse trickle, when necessary, by the MH-C9000 to break up crystelline formation was gained by conversing with their tech rep. I found complete information on the LaCrosse BC-900 harder to come by. A direct side by side comparison of information leaves the BC-900 lacking information. I conclude (perhaps incorrectly) that the lack of more specific information available is due to lhe lack of sophisticated features. Were you able to find more complete information on that unit than available at Thomas Distributing? The lack information available to me colors my view and leaves me assuming that the BC-900 unit is not as sophisticated as the MH-C9000. Additionally, Powerex/Maha is a company that specializes in the design/manufacture of chargers whereas LaCrosse does not. The Powerex Maha units tend to be distributed through high end specialized outlets while the LaCrosse units tend to be available at mass merchants and discount houses.

IMO both of these units are a substantial upgrade to the typical inexpensive units found at the "Discount Houses" that many of us use.

Current Pricing: MH-C9000 $59.97 BC-900 $48.97

The MH-C801D charges 8 AAA batteries at a rate of 700mAh (On the high end of perfect for Intellects) and features a conditioning button that will automatically condition batteries when selected. IMO a very good unit for charging at races. $69.97.

arch2b
2007.02.19, 01:36 PM
i split the threads so that talk of each charger would be in each respective thread.

i do not rely on the distributor in this case, thomas distributing, for all the info. i prefer to get most info right from the manufacturer when possible vs. the retailer. sometimes it's all teh same stuff though. i went to some camera forums and searched there as they tend to get down and dirty with the details vs. the basics and shop listing material you see on retail websites. yes, you are correct in that there are bais involved but that is so of every forum. you'll also see it in retailer info they choose to display as well. bias is everywhere in business... i like to think however the photo guys are a bit more picky and descriminating in thier discetion of the chargers and the information.

i don't want you to think i don't believe you or are in some manner discrediting you as i am not and is not my intention. i thank you for posting some first hand experience. i have not seen one of these yet.

shuter
2007.02.19, 02:07 PM
I'm just picked up a LaCrosse V33. I've been playing with it for the pas few days trying to bring back some bad Intelects.

The LaCrosse has "Refresh" mode, where it will discharge and charge a battary untill it the capacity stablaizes.

It sounds like the thing the MH-C9000 does? How is the MaHa better?
I am not arch but will try to help.
The answer to your question is difficult and lengthy. Rather than attempt to cross match info and try and post the comparisons here (possibly incorrectly) I suggest you go to Thomas Distributing and read the MH-9000 info under the Description, Features and Specs tabs and compare them to the BC-900 information also available there. I think you will agree the MH-C9000 has more sophisticated features to maximize battery performance.

arch2b
2007.02.19, 02:35 PM
i started a thread for the bc-900 with all the info i could get quickly from lacrosse website
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24306

shuter
2007.02.19, 02:35 PM
i split the threads so that talk of each charger would be in each respective thread.

i do not rely on the distributor in this case, thomas distributing, for all the info. i prefer to get most info right from the manufacturer when possible vs. the retailer. sometimes it's all teh same stuff though. i went to some camera forums and searched there as they tend to get down and dirty with the details vs. the basics and shop listing material you see on retail websites. yes, you are correct in that there are bais involved but that is so of every forum. you'll also see it in retailer info they choose to display as well. bias is everywhere in business... i like to think however the photo guys are a bit more picky and descriminating in thier discetion of the chargers and the information.

i don't want you to think i don't believe you or are in some manner discrediting you as i am not and is not my intention. i thank you for posting some first hand experience. i have not seen one of these yet.

I know what you mean about about getting the definitive info from the manufacturers rather than distributors or retailers. I think the MH-C9000 info listed at TD is provided the manufactur in this case. The information on the BC-900 is also there for convenience of comparison. Even a video that I think is also provided by LaCrosse.

Like you I thought the photo guys would be discriminating and provide solid information but was disappointed with the quality of info I got on the forums I visited. Maybe you found forums with better info than I did. I know you are far more capable than I on a computer and searching the internet.

My intention here is to work through the variables so everyone can benefit. As with you I have tried to provide accurate information and am not trying to discredit you in any way. The exchange of info here is hopefully educational and as we work through it we may find agreement on which chargers are best suited for our applications.

arch2b
2007.02.19, 02:40 PM
i think we are on the same page :) we may have differing opinions but thats perfectly ok. i respect your opinion as much as i do my own :)

we certainly benifit from members like yourself that do contribute.

rharris
2007.02.19, 02:58 PM
I suggest you go to Thomas Distributing and read the MH-9000 info under the Description, Features and Specs tabs and compare them to the BC-900 information also available there.

Yea, I did that. In fact I bought my bc900 from Thomas Distributing(free shipping and a nifty tester for free :D ) I spent some time reading up on them both.

In a nutshell, the Maha...
1. allows for more options in discharge
2. has a pulse mode
3. kicks out of trickle
4. rests between cycles
5. configurable number of cycles.

While the LaCrosse...
1. smaller footprint
2. up to 20 cycles as determined by charger
3. better display
4. proven tech (on revision 33)

For me it came down to the foot print and the display.

So here's the $10,000 question...Will the MaHa produce better results? I guess the only way to know would be a side by side comparison, and I'll probably pick one up so I can do just that... ;)

Spoon
2007.02.19, 03:12 PM
So here's the $10,000 question...Will the MaHa produce better results? I guess the only way to know would be a side by side comparison, and I'll probably pick one up so I can do just that... ;)

You know, that's a really good question. Sometimes I get caught up in the details of these cars (and batteries) when in the end it might not even matter. Don't get me wrong I have tested my share of chargers and dischargers and I will probably sell at least one of my LaCrosse chargers (of 2) and pick up one of these MaHa units. With the research I have been doing on batteriess lately, it seems that the MaHa satisfies all of the shortcomings of the LaCrosse. The LaCrosse is great, but the MaHa might be just a little better. Specifically 1) & 3) for the MaHa are what I am really interested in.

I also wanted to say that getting caught up in these little details is part of what I find really enjoyable about this hobby.

shuter
2007.02.19, 06:52 PM
i split the threads so that each of these units could get the proper attention without drifting into discussions on other chargers.

as hood does well, keep any references to other units brief and to the point as there are threads on these already. link to those when needed.

Yes I see what you have done with the threads. I was not aware of the new catagory "Batteries and Chargers" as I just logged in and checked "new posts" for items of interest. A well deserved catagory. Thanks

Sinister_Y
2007.02.19, 07:50 PM
hey guys, like I mentioned in my 1st thread on this (which is part of another thread...)...anyway, sometimes, its just about having a fast car in general and being able to drive that sucker good. What I said in the other thread still stands...there were many a dude who were wicked fast with the 15 min energizer charger and the energizer 1000 mah cells at the PN world cup this year. I was using good cells (but old) which I had matched individually using a pulsar2 competition charger (LRP). That took forever. Anyway, at the last race (toronto championship race). I tq'd AWD stock, but the new york guys smoked me in the main, they were using the energizer 1000's and 15 min chargers. We all had fixed gear ratios (same) and were limited to what motors we could used. If I was as serious as I used to be in 1/10. I would have zapped my motor car before the race and maybe even dyno'd the motors etc... but sometimes I just want to have fun and don't mind if I get smoked. At least I can say my setup was good and I drove good to get TQ.

bottom line, the fastest car usually isn't the one with the most power. Just the one that can get the power down (i.e. cornering speed) and driving skill (don't you hate hitting those darn RCP barriers? heh heh)

shuter
2007.02.19, 08:57 PM
No question about setup and DRIVING SKILLS. I seem to be stuck at a pretty mediocre skill level. The guys turning in 90 - 100 lap counts are absolutely amazing! Hope I get the opportunity to watch it being done in person someday.

rharris
2007.02.19, 10:44 PM
I also wanted to say that getting caught up in these little details is part of what I find really enjoyable about this hobby.

Yea, me too. I like to tinker.

Sinister_Y - You're rite, the best cells won't make you a better driver. But bad cells will kill a heat. I've been using a IC3 charger all year. I started looking into the MaHa and Lacrosse becouse every now and then the IC3 would not charge a cell. Worst case, the charger light went out, and I didn't find the bad cell untill 10 laps into the heat. (it's hard to get a good reading with a multi-meter sometimes)

With the BC-900 and the MH-C900 you can see the actual voltage when you pull the cell off the charger. I'm hopfull that this little feature will keep me from throwing a heat becouse a cell didn't charge.

The ability to group cells by high voltage and mah is a bonus. I look forward to seeing how much of a difference this makes. Sometimes all you need to get around a guy, is a few more milliamps...

shuter
2007.02.20, 10:30 PM
Yea, I did that. In fact I bought my bc900 from Thomas Distributing(free shipping and a nifty tester for free :D ) I spent some time reading up on them both.

In a nutshell, the Maha...
1. allows for more options in discharge
2. has a pulse mode
3. kicks out of trickle
4. rests between cycles
5. configurable number of cycles.

While the LaCrosse...
1. smaller footprint
2. up to 20 cycles as determined by charger
3. better display
4. proven tech (on revision 33)

For me it came down to the foot print and the display.

So here's the $10,000 question...Will the MaHa produce better results? I guess the only way to know would be a side by side comparison, and I'll probably pick one up so I can do just that... ;)

Sorry, I pased on some inaccurate information when I said the MH-C9000 shuts off when charging is complete. It does not. It goes into maintenance mode and trickles at 10mAh or .013C.

Something else I learned - If you do not program a charge rate for each battery when you put it in the charger the MH-C9000 has a default charge rate of 1000mA. The BC-900 has a default rate of 200mA.

rharris
2007.02.21, 04:06 AM
shutter - the BC-900 will not let you charge AAA's higher then 1000ma. (there is a hardware tweak but I'd rather not)

Does the MH-C9000 allow you to charge AAA's at a higher rate? If so, I want one.

shuter
2007.02.21, 05:34 AM
shutter - the BC-900 will not let you charge AAA's higher then 1000ma. (there is a hardware tweak but I'd rather not)

Does the MH-C9000 allow you to charge AAA's at a higher rate? If so, I want one.

It says the maximum charge rate is 2.0A or 2000mA. I don't see where the literature says that rate is limited to AAs so I think so. The charger is currently in "break in" mode forming some batteries. I am hesitant to disrupt the cycle. They should finish by tomorrow evening, I'll check then and let you know.

byebye
2007.02.21, 06:45 AM
shutter - the BC-900 will not let you charge AAA's higher then 1000ma. (there is a hardware tweak but I'd rather not)

Does the MH-C9000 allow you to charge AAA's at a higher rate? If so, I want one.

According to the manual- http://www.thomas-distributing.com/la-crosse-products/La-Crosse-BC-900-Battery-Charger-Manual.pdf

You can only charge higher than 1000ma when using banks 1 and 4. When 4 batteries are inserted max charging rate is 1000ma. Max charging rate using any other order of bank than 1 and 4 will only give you a max charging rate of 1000ma.

-Byebye

arch2b
2007.02.21, 08:38 AM
fyi
guys, i started these maha and lacrosse threads with just about all the info from the websites in the very begining, including the manual

shuter, if you find yourself covering material already posted in antoher thread you can quote it or post a link to it. makes it easier on you so you don't have to retype everything. ;) thank you for taking such an interest in these threads and answering quesitons :) we have atleast 4 very good conversations going on 3 different chargers which is excellent.

Spoon
2007.02.21, 08:45 AM
According to the manual- http://www.thomas-distributing.com/la-crosse-products/La-Crosse-BC-900-Battery-Charger-Manual.pdf

You can only charge higher than 1000ma when using banks 1 and 4. When 4 batteries are inserted max charging rate is 1000ma. Max charging rate using any other order of bank than 1 and 4 will only give you a max charging rate of 1000ma.

-Byebye

Shuter is correct, in it's stock form the LaCrosse BC-900 will only let you charge AAA's at 1000mah no matter where you put them.

I am planning on getting one of the C9000's to do a full test on. I should have preliminary info in about two weeks with a full review sometime after that.

imxlr8ed
2007.02.21, 01:21 PM
In my past and current experience... I don't think chargers or cells have alot to do with your level of competition. In my last races with Sai, Willy and Bennett... yes, their cars were fast... but when I was aside of them in the straights, I was keeping up. When we got to the turns, that's where I began to see where my real problem was.

I was running year and a half old Rayovac 750's charged on a Lacrosse, peaked on a Duracell 1 hour. I was up at the Worlds with the same system... I wasn't the slowest guy out there... just couldn't get the cars to hook up.
(that's why I'm finally getting real about MMs and disc dampeners :o )

Best thing I could say about any battery process is how to start the cells out. The cells I started out with my Lacrosse refresh cycle are still going strong today... the ones I just charged and ran right away, even though they are newer, seem less punchy. Cycle thoroughly at the beginning of the cells life... I think the Lacrosse accomplishes this perfectly. (with a fan on it of course.)

rharris
2007.02.21, 01:58 PM
Shuter is correct, in it's stock form the LaCrosse BC-900 will only let you charge AAA's at 1000mah no matter where you put them.

I am planning on getting one of the C9000's to do a full test on. I should have preliminary info in about two weeks with a full review sometime after that.

Update - My BC-900 will let you charge AAA's at up to 1800, but you have to use bank 1 and 4 only. I picked up two of the BC-900's, one of them was bad. It would not let me charge AAA's higher then 1000, and sometimes bank's 3 and 4 would stop charging all together. I"m returning it today.

I still like the LaCrosse. I'd like to pick up a MH-C9000.

imxlr8ed - It's true, the best cells in the world won't make you a better driver. But when two guys have even skills, the faster car wins. Fast comes from a lot of places, not just cells. But they are part of the mix.

Besides... this is fun :D

imxlr8ed
2007.02.21, 07:52 PM
Oh yeah... no doubt ! I've been walked on a few times by fresh power, I don't really mind that though. (I know I can go fast too) It's the whole hi-speed handling thing I'm struggling with right now ! I know I'm a better driver in the turns than what my cars have been allowing me to do as of late... and I guess that's bugs me more than anything else.

That 9000 charger is on my list as well... looks and sounds like the one to get !

Although... I still like the thinking behind linear charging like the crew from At*mic was doing at the World Cup. (seems to make more sense) And after watching Christian fly around the track like he had lipo power was pretty thought provoking as far as charging methods go.

shuter
2007.02.22, 06:36 AM
shutter - the BC-900 will not let you charge AAA's higher then 1000ma. (there is a hardware tweak but I'd rather not)

Does the MH-C9000 allow you to charge AAA's at a higher rate? If so, I want one.

YES - I just topped off a set of Intellects using the MH-C9000. The batteries had been fully charged 4 days ago. I set the charge rate at 2000 mA which was the maximum allowable. They were all topped off within 12 minutes.

rharris
2007.02.22, 02:29 PM
YES - I just topped off a set of Intellects using the MH-C9000. The batteries had been fully charged 4 days ago. I set the charge rate at 2000 mA which was the maximum allowable. They were all topped off within 12 minutes.

Did you charge all 4 cells at 2000 at the same time? The BC-900 will let you charge 2 at 1800 ( I figured that out after my first post).

If the C9000 will let you charge 4 cells at 2000, then it's the clear winner.

rharris
2007.02.22, 02:40 PM
Although... I still like the thinking behind linear charging like the crew from At*mic was doing at the World Cup.

I know...

I've been going to the local PN events, and the fast guys are using an ICE and a charge tray. I really believe it's becouse they have not seen what you can do with the new chargers (BC-900 and MH-C9000).

I just don't see how charging in serial can be better.

It used to be the only way to charge 4 cells at a time and have control over the charge rate and cut off. I looked into this option hard core. I was going to get an ICE. The big issue to me seems to be cut off. If you use heat(with a sensor), volt drop, time, or a combination of all three, you are still making the cut off decision based on the weekest cell in the pack.

In 10th scale, I see guys break open the packs, and charge each cell individualy. Then they will hand pick the best cells, and re-soder the pack. Then they top it off rite before the race.

So, it seems like using 4 AAA's and a MH-C9000 charger is a big advantage for our scale. It's way easier to hand pick the best cells and top them off rite before the race.

shuter
2007.02.22, 02:47 PM
Did you charge all 4 cells at 2000 at the same time? The BC-900 will let you charge 2 at 1800 ( I figured that out after my first post).

If the C9000 will let you charge 4 cells at 2000, then it's the clear winner.


Yes, you can select the charge rate for each cell (all four) individually up to 2000mA.

rharris
2007.02.22, 02:58 PM
Yes, you can select the charge rate for each cell (all four) individually up to 2000mA.

Awsome.... that seals the deal for me. The MH-C9000 is the winner.

You'd need 2 BC-900's to do the job of one MH-C9000. I'm going to pick a few up and give my BC-900's away as prizes in upcomming races. The BC-900 is still a kick butt charger, just not as good at the C9000 ;)

Thanks for the 411 shutter

Sinister_Y
2007.02.22, 08:24 PM
my 2 units are being driven from Florida to Toronto as we speak.

I will still use my LRP Pulsar comp2, but not for mini-z anymore (i.e. tray). I totally believe in the individual cell charging/discharging practice.

I am now selling/giving my 2 GP fast chargers to my friend (and his son). I will end up ordering 2 more 9000s soon. That would give me a total of 4-4pack chargers. Then I may consider what someone else suggested, i.e. the 8 cell charger...just for transmitter pack charging during racing. Oh yeah, that means selling my Novak discharger now too and my PN discharge trays since they will be not necessary with the cycling available with the 9000s.

Anyway, I will report when I get the stuff and run a few packs through. I will try and do a compare with the LRP Pulsar 2..since that charger is high end (originally I bought for 1/10).

Sinister_Y
2007.02.23, 10:10 AM
good review link:

http://www.digitaldingus.com/reviews/maha/mhc9000/using_mhc9000.php

shuter
2007.02.23, 10:36 AM
good review link:

http://www.digitaldingus.com/reviews/maha/mhc9000/using_mhc9000.php

Great review. Thanks for the link. He does key in on the only thing that has irritated me. The lack of accumulated time consumed when using a mode that has multiple cycles. He states the situation perfectly.

mystique13
2007.02.23, 01:25 PM
Great review. Thanks for the link. He does key in on the only thing that has irritated me. The lack of accumulated time consumed when using a mode that has multiple cycles. He states the situation perfectly.

yer, the time consumed for a discharge cycle and the volt after discharge are indeed the KEYS to match batt. The analysis mode recorded the mAh & IR volt reading is a principle error in doing matching....

there are some improvement that i seek:
1) allowing discharge in higher Amp, say 0.1 thru 3.0 Amp
2) adjustable cut-off voltage
3) recording time consumed for a discharge cycle and the volt after discharge in analysis mode

shuter
2007.02.23, 02:07 PM
yer, the time consumed for a discharge cycle and the volt after discharge are indeed the KEYS to match batt. The analysis mode recorded the mAh & IR volt reading is a principle error in doing matching....

there are some improvement that i seek:
1) allowing discharge in higher volt, say 0.1 thru 3.0 Amp
2) adjustable cut-off voltage
3) recording time consumed for a discharge cycle and the volt after discharge in analysis mode

You havemy interest here but I don't quite understand your points. Can you explain further?

What is the signifigance of the amount of time consumed for discharge?

The charger is supposed to discharge to 1 Volt for each battery. Are you saying it does not? I did notice when I took a look at the Volts displayed near the end of the discharge cycle that two were at 1Volt and two of them were still around 1.1Volt. I figured the charger would continue discharging the two batteries that were at 1.1Volt until they were also at 1Volt. I'll monitor the next set to see what happens. What do you think is the signifigange of two batteries geting to 1Volt first?

What do you mean by: 1) Above ?
2) When and why?
3) The only way I am able to get the Voltage and time consumed so far is by using the "Discharge" mode. There are some programming features I do not yet understand. In the instructions it says that in the Refresh and Analize, Break-In, and Discharge mode, the total discharge capacity will be displayed. "Available Capacity" icon will also be shown. Not sure what that means yet.

Sinister_Y
2007.02.24, 11:35 PM
mystique is giving their 'wishlist' items for the charger..

mystique, for sure, but this is still the best independent cell charger for mini-z peeps in the market (for now...).

now if we could all put together about 100k USD, we could get Maha to make this charger with the mini-z peep's complete requirements...say

Yah, my wishlist would include:

1) adj cutoff
2) higher discharge rate (yeah m, 3.0A would do it)
3) shuter...yeah, totals would be nice or at least an option to get totals and phase subtotals would be nice during cycling
4) an 8 cell version of this charger
5) 2 adapter cables: 1 that is banana (or European type) with alligator clips andthe other cable the regular one going the wall wart.
6) PC interface(mini usb would be great)...to hook up with the cycle data and have a nifty little program that provides charts of the data along with being able to print match labels (for AAA).

Mind you, the unit would probably be $200+ by now...well, dreams must be made. One day...

arch2b
2007.02.27, 01:36 PM
have you guys seen the other sticky closed threads in other sections with info on products and all the relevant information for them? we have a similar thing going on in the tx forum and i would like to do the same here. would someone be willing to post images, data and all the relevant information on chargers not already done so that they can be combined into a closed and sticky thread?

Sinister_Y
2007.03.04, 06:13 PM
Hey Sinister_Y here. Thought some of you might like this...pic of my new charger(and discharger now) setup:

I even tried these chargers out on my super 'arse old Sanyo 1500 Nicd! Believe it or not (I do take care of my batteries, but...) they still were good! The did the "break-in" cycle on them 1x for the 1st charger (i.e. 4 cells) and got just under 1500Mah for all of them. Then the other 2 cells (I only have 6 now), needed 2 break-in cycles. Then, these last 2 were also just under 1500Mah.

My only gripe with the chargers is that 50Mah increments for the capacities would have been nice. Right now (V1?) only has increments in 100 Mah. i.e. 900, 1000 etc... My GP 950s either have to be set at 900 or 1000 Mah. No biggie, just means that the current the charger sets automatically is based on 900 or 1000, i.e. 0.1 C.

One other thing is that any pictures really don't do the backlit LCD justice. This thing is really really bright. It lights up my room when I turn off my main lights.

shuter
2007.03.04, 07:41 PM
Sinister_Y - You are charger wealthy for sure. Are you using a 12 V. power source to power all four of them?

Is that a couple boxes of Fujicells in the backround? I'm looking forward to hearing how they measure up with capacity and Volts. Intellects have been time tested and recommended by so many of the experienced racers I think they are the benchmark. The conditioning and charging results are just the beginning of the real test. Comparing the Fujicells with real world driving is where the rubber meets the road. Hehe. I'm rooting for the Fujicells since they are so much less expensive.

Thanks for obtaining and posting all the battery specs from the various battery manufacturers. I am wondering how we can track the internal resistance of the batteries over time and use. Even using the same charge/discharge rates for different battery brands, they may show various rates of growth in internal resistance. Do you have a way to track that?

Sinister_Y
2007.03.07, 12:34 PM
yeah, I'm using an ****** 12V power supply (10A constant/13.5A max). It is capable of providing (10 X 12) 120 Watts constantly.

Technically the most any 1 C9000 charger would pull is 14 Watts (max charging current as per unit specs= 2.0 A per bank/cell X 1.5V (really the cell is 1.25V, but using 1.5V as I noticed that voltage when doing in the break-in mode, cells will reach around 1.46V)= 3.5W x 4 banks= 14W)

...take the 120Watts that the power supply can provide and voila! you can comfortably provide power to 8 C-9000 units and a fan!

Anyway, 4 chargers is enough for me. The size of these chargers really overwhelmed me at first. That and the LCD display is huge! Really no pictures do this charger justice in my mind.

In regards to internal resistance, there are a few chargers that can do this (i.e ICE charger). But, for me when I notice that the cells are losing punch, hell just throw them out (recycle of course!). As noted the Fuji cells are so cheap. On another note, while I was doing research on all the battery manufacturers, many had to say that the intellects had the most voltage, but noticed a signature drop after 2 weeks of use. Also that after the first 100 cells or so, batches are not as high voltage. That is why all factory drivers get the first batches out. My only guess is that while manfacturing would still stay within tolerances, the last batches of batteries would not be as matched to specs as the 1st batches...

shuter
2007.05.04, 05:39 AM
Found this article with some great informatin:

One of the most important and beneficial features of the C9000 is the Break-In mode. Battery manufacturers rate their battery capacity and cycle life using a “standard” charge and a “standard discharge.” The C9000’s Break-In mode allows you to compare your batteries performance to what they are supposed to be. This allows you to know the condition of your batteries, and to compare various brands of batteries.

Sometimes batteries that have been abused or left in storage for an extended period of time can be brought back to life by a Break-In cycle. It doesn’t always work, but since it is an automatic function on the C9000, it’s worth a try.

Well, it’s not completely automated. It’s best to start with a discharge battery, so you may have to do a discharge first and then run the Break-In. Most cells should be able to handle the low charge rate of the Break-In mode without problems, but some cells have a higher internal resistance and they tend to heat up a lot when overcharged. Starting with a discharged cell eliminates the overcharge heating.

Keep in mind that the “standard” charge involves charging a cell at rate equal to one tenth of its labeled capacity for 16 hours. In the Break-In mode, this “standard” charge is followed by a one hour rest period, then the cell is discharged over five hours. After another rest period, another “standard” charge is done on the cell. Doing the math we come up with a 16 hour charge + 1 hour rest + 5 hour discharge + 1 hour rest + 16 hour charge = 39 hours.

39 hours seems like a long time to tie up your charger, but your cells will love you for it. Since it requires no input from you, other than selecting the mAh capacity of your cell when you start, you can just set it and leave

The alternative is to do several cycles. The C9000 allows you to program up to 12 cycles and allows you to set the charge and discharge rates for the cycling. It also stores the capacity data so you can review it and see what effect cycling is having. The default charge rate is 1000 mA and the default discharge rate is 500 mA in Cycle mode.

These features alone make it worth having this charger, but there is more…

The C9000 has a discharge only mode.

Have you ever wondered how much capacity you loose with your cells sitting on the shelf for a week or so? It is often widely stated that NiMh cells will loose almost all of their capacity in a very short time, however with the discharge mode of the C9000 you can put those reports to bed and know that is not the case. With the introduction of the new low self discharge rate batteries like the Sanyo Eneloop cells, you can also check to see if they are holding up to their claims. You can also determine how much of an improvement a higher capacity battery offers.

You can even check out the various brands of Alkaline cells to see which offers the highest capacity for the discharge rate you are interested in. The C9000 will not charge Alkaline cells, but it does allow you to do a discharge on them. Ever wonder how much better a Lithium primary cell is than an Alkaline cell? Now you can check it out for yourself.

The discharge mode defaults at 500 mA, but allows you to select a discharge rate from 100 mA to 1000 mA, in 100 mA steps. It continues until the cell reaches 0.9 volts and the display shows the capacity in mAh, the voltage of the cell, and the time involved with the discharge. This information is displayed until the cell is removed.

In multi cell applications, your device will stop working when the lowest capacity cell runs out. To get the best performance in multi cell applications, you need to match your cells on capacity. This way they all run out at the same time. The discharge mode of the C9000 allows you to do this.

Make sure you also get the 12 volt adaptor cord for the C9000. In many parts of the world there are times when an emergency occurs and the power goes out. During an extended power outage the C9000’s ability to operate from 12 volts gives you the ability to recharge batteries when the main power is out.

The AC adapter for the C9000 works worldwide accepting 100-240 volts 50/60 Hz input.

Now that we have worked our way through all of the “bonus” features of this charger, let’s take a look at how it charges.

To charge your batteries, insert them in the charger and take them out when “Done” is displayed.

If you are interested in a “fuller” charge, wait two hours after “Done” for the top off charge to complete.

That’s it.



Can it really be that simple? YES!!!



As cells age their internal resistance increases. The C9000 checks for this and will display “HIGH” if the internal resistance is increased to the point that it is not healthy enough for high rate charging.

If you get the “HIGH” message, recycle the cell and move on.

The C9000 has a default charge rate of 1000 mA. This charge rate works great for all AA cells and also is well suited for AAA cells. It may be a little high for some of the older low capacity (600 mAh) AAA cells, but if the cell is in good condition, it will do fine at the default rate.

If you don’t like the default settings, and think you know something about battery charging, the C9000 allows you to select a charging rate from 200 mA up to 2000 mA in 100 mA steps. The NiMh battery manufacturers recommend charging at a 0.5C to 1.0C charge rate to insure a strong “end of charge” signal. C refers to the labeled capacity of the battery. If we had a 2000 mAh battery, a 0.5C charging rate would be 1000 mA, and a 1C charging rate would be 2000 mA.

So, what happens if you want to charge everything at 200 mA?

Well, first of all, it takes longer, and secondly, the end of charge signal may be too weak for the charger to recognize it and terminate the charge. This will result in overcharging the cell. The C9000 will “time out” at 4000 mAh, but it is probably better to set a timer and manually check to see if the charger missed the termination signal. If it did, you can manually shut it off. I have charged a wide variety of brands and capacities of both AA and AAA cells at 200 mA and have not had a missed termination, but my sample is too small to make a broad statement. Usually the C9000 will properly terminate, but I am sure there will be some cases where it will continue to charge at this low rate until it “times out.”

At the other end of the spectrum is charging everything at 2000 mA. When charging four AA cells at 2000 mA, the C9000 heats up. This heat is radiated to the cells that are charging, and they heat up as well. The amount the cells heat up is dependent on their internal resistance and general condition.

Here are some actual test results while charging 4 cells at 2000 mA:

AAA 850 mAh cells got up to 118 F. These cells were not in very good condition.
AAA 900 mAh cells got up to 115 F. These were in pretty good condition.
AAA 700 mAh cells got up to 112 F. These are old, well used cells.
AA 2300 mAh cells got up to 130 F. These are well used cells that have a slightly increased internal resistance.
AA 1800 mAh cells got up to 112 F. These cells are designed for high current and have very low internal resistance.
AA 2500 mAh cells got up to 125 F. These are new cells in good condition.
AA 2600 mAh cells got up to 137 F at mid cell and 135 F at the negative end where the C9000 monitors the cell temperature. These are also new cells, but they have high internal resistance and are not suited to high charge rates, or high discharge rates. At high charge and discharge rates, they heat up.
AA 2650 mAh cells got up to 128 F. These are new cells with moderate use.
AA 2600 mAh cells got up to 129 F. These are older cells with hard use.

Keep in mind that these are the peak temperatures that occurred during the last stage of the charge. The temperature actually peaks a few moments after the charge terminates. The cell temperatures during the bulk of the charge were in the 95 – 100 F range.

The C9000 monitors the temperature of each battery slot and terminates the charge if the cell temperature (measured at the negative end of the cell) exceeds around 135 F. There is no alarm indication when a cell terminates on high temperature. The C9000 simply terminates the charge and displays “Done” along with the charge time and mAh put into the cell.

The C9000 utilizes a very tight battery holder. A good connection is required for high rate charging. I have found that the easiest way to insert cells is to put the negative end in first and snap in the positive end. To remove the cell, press back to compress the spring at the negative end and tip the cell out positive end first.

The C9000 is about 6.5 inches tall, 4.5 inches wide and 1.5 inches thick. It has a lift rod that raises the back of the charger up for easier viewing and better air circulation. The power adaptor is roughly 2.875 inches tall, 1.875 inches wide, and 1.5 inches deep, not including the prongs that plug in.

A top off charge of 100 mA is applied at the end of the charge cycle for two hours. After that, a maintenance charge of 10 mA is applied for as long as the battery is in the slot.

Maha has a three year warranty on the C9000. To view more information on this excellent charger and to check out the owners manual, visit www.mahaenergy.com .

The C9000 was released in late December 2006. Early units had some difficulty terminating with a few cells, especially at lower charge rates. This review was done on a C9000 received in February 2007, and reflects improvements Maha has made to the charge algorithm.

Another big “thumbs up” to Maha. This is an excellent charger/analyzer. Simple enough for casual use, but offering advanced, sophisticated features for those times when we are trying to better understand the condition of our batteries, or when we are matching cells for multi cell use.

SuperFly
2007.06.30, 02:54 PM
I just picked up a c9000, and I have a couple questions that somebody here might know the answer to. Let me start by saying I'm a complete battery novice, and I've been using either Rayovac IC3 15-minute batts or Energizer 15-minute batts for as long as I've been using rechargables. Several of my sets have been in use for a couple years.

I'm wondering if anyone has a good plan/procedure for me to weed out any bad cells and to group the remaining good cells. I assumed (based on the insturctions) that I should run "refresh and analyze" mode three times or so. So far with about 8 batteries run through it though, I seem to be killing them. Cells that I'm pretty sure would at least charge and run a car are now totally dead. Am I doing something wrong, and is there anything about 15-minute batts that would cause the C9000 to behave differently that expected?

shuter
2007.06.30, 09:48 PM
I just picked up a c9000, and I have a couple questions that somebody here might know the answer to. Let me start by saying I'm a complete battery novice, and I've been using either Rayovac IC3 15-minute batts or Energizer 15-minute batts for as long as I've been using rechargables. Several of my sets have been in use for a couple years.

I'm wondering if anyone has a good plan/procedure for me to weed out any bad cells and to group the remaining good cells. I assumed (based on the insturctions) that I should run "refresh and analyze" mode three times or so. So far with about 8 batteries run through it though, I seem to be killing them. Cells that I'm pretty sure would at least charge and run a car are now totally dead. Am I doing something wrong, and is there anything about 15-minute batts that would cause the C9000 to behave differently that expected?

I don't know much about IC-3 15 min batteries. Seems to me that someone reported problems with an occasional battery not functioning properly when removed from the charger and immediately put into the car. I have seen an occasional IC-3 showing dead or nearly dead after charging, then when allowed to rest and checked later showed charged. I have no idea why.

If the IC-3 batteries are 1000mAh they will need a charge rate of approximately 4000mAh (4 Amps) to fully charge from a discharged state in 15 Min. The MH-C9000 has a maximum charge rate of 2000mAh which is only half of the needed rate. I have no idea if the charge/discharge algorithms created for standard NiMH batteries are what is needed for IC-3 batteries.

Hope someone can shed some light on this issue.

SuperFly
2007.07.01, 11:09 PM
I have seen an occasional IC-3 showing dead or nearly dead after charging, then when allowed to rest and checked later showed charged. I have no idea why.


Thanks for the reply, shuter. You were correct, in that the IC3s went from showing totally dead to fully charged (as they should have been) by just sitting on the table for a couple hours.

I have to say I'm enjoying the C9000 to get a good picture of the state of my batteries. So far, the only real drawbacks I would mention is the way the AAA cells fit into it. I don't see why it has to be such a tenuous hold on the negative end of the battery. My 4th slot often pops out, which can be a real drag when you're halfway through a 4-hour process.

Does anyone have any recommended settings for 800mah IC3 batts in the refresh/analyze mode? I'm using 800ma (1C) for charging, and 500ma for discahrging, but thinking about cranking it up higher since they're IC3s. Anyone know what makes an IC3 different from other NiMHs?

BobT
2007.08.02, 04:49 PM
If you cannot get this or any cell to accept a standard charg rate lower the amperage of your charge to say 1/2C (400ma). The softer the charge the more likely a cell is to take the charge. After one cycle it should take a 1C or close to it.