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color01
2007.02.24, 10:02 PM
Latest update 11/04/07

Introducing the MRCG: A pan chassis aimed at open-class racers who need a lower CG, more responsive handling, and more tuning options than a standard Mini-Z.

(RM prototype pictured, final car will have bespoke MM motor mount)

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9356/rmproto002lo5.jpg

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4248/rmproto001ql4.jpg

This Mini-Z MR02-based chassis has the following design features:
- MM configuration for agile handling
- Narrowest battery configuration possible to increase responsiveness
- Long flex-plate suspension similar to Mini-Z F1
- Compatability with many rear suspension configurations: side springs, tri-shock system, disk damper, oil damper, or any combination of those
- Battery pack placed far more rearward than in Mini-Z MR02
- Adjustable weight bias by shifting battery pack fore and aft
- Electronics plate cinches down on any AAA or lithium-polymer pack that fits
- Front end allows ride height to be adjusted fully independently of spring preload and front end maintenance without kingpin removal
- Thin fiberglass tierod and electronics plate, minimal hardware used in order to keep chassis weight low
- Compatability with many servos and electronics packages
- 98mm wheelbase

Parts included:
- G10 fiberglass chassis pieces: Main chassis, Front lower bulkhead, 0į, -1į and 1į tierods, Electronics plate, Rear body/damper mount, Body mount clips (2), Flex plates (2), Rear pod bottom plate, Rear pod top plate (for disk damper), Rear pod top plate (no disk damper)
- Delrin pieces: Differential height adjusters (for rear pod; 4 settings)
- Aluminum pieces: Rear pod left and right side plates
- Hardware: Stainless steel screws and nuts

Additional parts required:
- Mini-Z MR015/02 front knuckles, kingpins, springs, spring perches, c-clips, rear ball differential
- Mini-Z MR01/015/02 wheels, tires, bearings
- Micro servo (no wider than 23mm), servo saver
- Receiver and ESC (or combo), compatible transmitter
- Mounting tape for electronics
- 130-size motor, 48dp 2mm shaft pinion
- Battery pack
- Body

Optional parts:
- Extra MR02 front springs and spring perches (for rear end tuning)
- Atomic RM DPSII spare parts set (includes the 3 plastic shock assemblies and 4mm ball nuts)
- Atomic RM DPSII spare spring set
- Atomic AR-071 4.1mm ball nut (for the 3 plastic shocks)
- Disk damper post, friction disks, springs (Atomic, PN Racing, etc.)
- Small 2mm washer (for disk damper)
- Kyosho MR015/02 oil damper or equivalent

Rear end options:
- Side springs (adjustable preload via threaded nuts)
- Side plastic shocks
- Center plastic shock
- Disk damper
- Oil damper
- Any combination of the above


The MRCG was intended from the start to be a versatile, durable chassis, which explains the KISS design and the preference for using adjustable rather than fixed standoffs and mounts. The rear suspension was designed to give the user full tuning freedom; with no other chassis are mounting points for extra springs, shocks, and dampers so readily provided. The front suspension employs two stacked fiberglass pieces to hold the kingpin, but these pieces are stacked underneath the knuckle to allow easy maintenance without extra disassembly. Part functions are doubled by design -- the servo strap is the tierod mount, the battery strap is the electronics plate, etc. -- to keep construction simple. All this amounts to an lightweight, stiff, easy-to-maintain chassis that you'll appreciate every time you visit the track.

pchan0
2007.02.24, 11:31 PM
I'm in for one! :cool:

Z man 89
2007.02.25, 12:05 AM
Wow! that looks really cool. I like it even more thyan the pro-z chasis. :D

color01
2007.02.25, 01:20 AM
Thanks guys; I also should mention that if there is a lot of interest I will do an MR015-width front end and caster option parts for both widths. I will, if I can find time, CAD up an approximation of the tri-shock system to give a better idea of how the final product will look.

(Off topic note to pchan: check your email please. Thanks!)

byebye
2007.02.25, 01:27 AM
I'm interested. Put me down on the pre-order list.

-Byebye

color01
2007.02.25, 07:24 PM
Noted, thanks byebye. :)



An approximated and highlighted damper system (obviously the real stuff is black). Shims will be provided, and can be used to alter the behavior of the springs.

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/6681/rd0205duw4.jpg

mini-z
2007.02.25, 08:04 PM
Very nice c - fancy selling them in the Shop here? Email me if so! :)

color01
2007.02.25, 08:51 PM
Absolutely, but I need to put a few kits together first as a quality check. If the offer still stands in a few months, I'd love to have it sold here at the shop. Many thanks to you and arch2b. ;)

color01
2007.03.01, 12:21 AM
Here are the final pre-production renders: the servo, batteries, kingpins, knuckles and motor mount are for reference only and not included in the actual kit.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8744/rd0205igt4.jpg
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/3149/rd0205jbg1.jpg

byebye
2007.03.01, 02:17 AM
Looks great so far. I have a couple questions.

Will there ever be a tri shock for an MM pod?

And the front where the front clip attaches, it looks adjustable. Is it possible to include a top and bottom plate to sandwich the front clip? I've lowered a couple bodies in the past place shims between the chassis and the clip and found it was lower but could snap easily.

-Byebye

color01
2007.03.01, 05:04 AM
I've been doing a lot of thinking about the same idea (when I am supposed to be doing my schoolwork...heck, it's 3AM over here). A compact, rigid disk damper + tri-shock system with a standard MM pod is just plain hard to do. There is one way I could envision it, but it involves the 3racing motor pod, and IMO that's not a great motor mount for serious racers. Any other way would involve a triangular mount held on by one screw, and that's not as reliable a solution as I would like. I might be able to make some parts that bolt on to the t-plate, but then there's the issue of that t-plate flexing in unwanted ways. So I'm pretty stumped with regards to an MM equivalent of what I've designed here.

If you have any ideas I'll definitely note them, but I think you also implied the question of whether or not I can create an MM car; the answer unfortunately is no, at least not in the near future. If I kept to my same design goals, it would be totally different from the RM car. Battery layout and the entire rear suspension would need to be changed, and right now I only have the resources to produce one product. Sorry. :o

As for the front clip: did you snap the clip or the chassis where it holds the clip? I'm probably missing the point here but I don't see how an additional CF bar is going to save the front clip in a high speed crash. I originally planned on the body clip being mounted on top of two nuts, a few shims, and then two more nuts which anchor everything together. If the front clip breaks that easily... I don't really have an answer, save for alloy or custom-made CF clips.

byebye
2007.03.01, 08:51 AM
http://shop.tinyrc.com/product.php?productid=17912&cat=367&page=1

The pics aren't the best but it's the Atomic LCG motor mount. PN makes one as well but without the height adjustable bearing cups. This motor mount uses the same type of connection between dps and mount as your design but is an MM pod.

What I meant about the front clip is when you secure one to a stock chassis there is two screw holes, two pins and it is secured to the chassis with a solid connection. There is minimal movement up and down because it is attched under the chassis.

In your design the clip does not have a top or bottom plate to keep it from moving up and down. But of course until you have built it we won't know if it is an issue.

Either way I think you are doing a great job.

-Byebye

color01
2007.03.01, 11:49 AM
I have that MM pod too. ;) But it illustrates the point I tried to get across, that I would have to make a triangular adapter piece for three shocks, working against each other, that could at any time twist the adapter piece around and screw up the handling. I might be paranoid but I would like to stay away from it, even if many other open-class cars use it.

The front clip is secured tightly as far as my design goes, I don't think that will be an issue. ;)

I read through the Pro-Z thread and all the troubles Scott had with getting his product out... I'm going to do my darn best to keep up communication with everyone, and hopefully, with less custom machined parts (all the metal hardware is standardized) and a reputable CF machinist (Dragonplate), everything will fall into place as I want it to. I've emailed all the companies I'm relying on for parts, and most have been quick to respond.

arch2b
2007.03.01, 01:01 PM
would you like me to add an 'ask greyscale racing' forum? this owuld give you a public support forum if you want.

color01
2007.03.01, 09:15 PM
That would be great! But I don't think it should be added till the product actually exists. ;)

Mini-Z: I have emailed you from the profile link, so please check and tell me what you think. Thank you so much for the offer! :)

svt-racer
2007.03.01, 10:21 PM
I like it. I would be up for this. I would try to package an aftermarket receiver and ESC. Say spectrum mini receiver and a small footprint ESC. That would be off the hook!

color01
2007.03.03, 12:57 PM
Thanks. :) Production is still a ways off on the calendar, so lots of time to get your stuff ready, lol...




Now, I have a question for everyone: what if I made the car MM? I'm working the CAD file at the moment; it seems possible, using a shortened MM mount (Atomic 94MM, PN Racing ML) to build a 98MM car out of this chassis. The main chassis has to be slightly redesigned, and a few new parts made to adapt an MM mount and make an MM tri-shock disk damper. The battery tray is shortened by about 8mm (still fits AAA though), and electronics space decreases by about the same amount. So, would you guys rather see:

1) An MM chassis, with RM conversion kit sold separately,
2) an RM chassis, with MM conversion kit sold separately, or
3) parts for both configurations in one kit (price will go up a bit)?

I imagine MM is the more popular option, but I do not want to make uneducated guesses. Thanks in advance!

EMU
2007.03.04, 01:43 AM
I would think that that since there are many more RM bodies available for Mini-Z than there are MM, that an RM chassis with MM conversion may be better.

Which would make the better racer, an MM chassis with an RM conversion or an RM chassis with the MM conversion. I assume that the MM chassis would be better than the RM converted to MM as well as the RM chassis would be better than the MM converted to RM. I would want the design that offers the most performance in both categories.

Battery space is important as well for balancing the car, so you have more room to adjust, which leads me to believe that an RM car with MM conversion may be better than MM car with RM conversion...

Its hard to get the complete image without seeing it :p So this is just some generalized theory to chew on ;)

mini-z
2007.03.04, 11:15 AM
That would be great! But I don't think it should be added till the product actually exists. ;)

Mini-Z: I have emailed you from the profile link, so please check and tell me what you think. Thank you so much for the offer! :)

Thanks color01, I did get it and will get back to you - just been a hectic week - thanks! :)

color01
2007.03.04, 01:06 PM
EMU, that's what I think too, but it's established that I'm not a very orthodox thinker, lol... :o Unfortunately I don't have the money to do so much stuff at once anyways, so I'll stick to my original goals of producing an RM open-class racer, and will be developing that chassis only.

Thanks Mini-Z. :)

byebye
2007.03.04, 01:08 PM
Next thing this car needs is a 94mm pan car body. How about a chassis kit "race ready" for $199.99?

-Byebye

cdog4w
2007.03.04, 02:14 PM
Next thing this car needs is a 94mm pan car body. How about a chassis kit "race ready" for $199.99?

-Byebye

Over at greyscale we were talking about this stuff and were thinking mini-z could put together a package of parts to make it a roller that you could buy along with the kit. Maybe have some pulldowns to select which motor mount/brand of knuckles etc. that would adjust the price accordingly. So those who have spares just buy the kit, those who want a roller buy the kit + the accessory package. Very similar to what rc flight sites do in packaging electronics.

color01
2007.03.09, 06:08 PM
Another question: in the interests of saving costs and not having to CA-glue chassis edges, would you guys be interested in a G10 chassis material instead of carbon fiber? G10 is almost 7x cheaper and if the last sheet I got is indicative, just as flat as proper CF. I'm personally all for it, but some people may mind the lack of bling, so let me know. Thanks! :)

arch2b
2007.03.09, 06:10 PM
i believe the pro-z was also offered in this as well? the shop sells g-10 h plates and i've always liked those.

color01
2007.03.09, 06:17 PM
Not the V6 and later Pro-Z's. Anyhow, I'm looking for a G10 supplier who can machine the stuff to good tolerances as well, so I'll update you guys when I find one who's willing to commit.

byebye
2007.03.10, 12:49 AM
I'm cool with what ever. I'll give feedback after I get it :)

-Byebye

arch2b
2007.03.10, 07:44 AM
if the g-10 significatnly reduces cost while maintaining the same performance of carbon fiber than go for it.

color01
2007.03.10, 06:04 PM
At this small a scale, the weight matters more than stiffness. G10 is a little bit heavier than CF... nevertheless, it has its own benefits that I outlined earlier. I have contacted all the companies that have the materials and services I require, so let's hope for the best.

color01
2007.03.21, 08:59 PM
Hi everyone,

One last update on this chassis for now. Because junior year's treating me so terribly, I've decided to hold back the chassis until the summer.

However, I'm going to make it well worth waiting for. I've found a local machinist willing to do me a huge favor, and also decided to stick with G10 fiberglass as the chassis material. As a result, the final price of the chassis is now $75, leaving you with more cash to build your 1/28 open-class racer.

Get ready for it. ;)

byebye
2007.03.22, 01:53 AM
NICE!!!!!! Can't wait :)

-Byebye

sillypuddy
2007.03.26, 10:06 AM
i am down for 1-2 once they get in

-joe

color01
2007.03.26, 06:26 PM
Great; I'm just biding my time till junior year nears a close and then pre-orders will be offered, chassis will be cut, kits put together, etc.

If it's of any interest to anyone, I tweaked the design a little bit and got a Thunder Power 730mAh LiPo to fit in the battery tray. I'm getting a pack for the demo car, hehe...

sxysweed
2007.03.31, 10:03 PM
If it's of any interest to anyone, I tweaked the design a little bit and got a Thunder Power 730mAh LiPo to fit in the battery tray. I'm getting a pack for the demo car, hehe...

Didn't see this on IRC, R7R, or any of the various xmods forums you posted it on...

Do you have an update picture of the cad drawing of this, or is not noticable... Can't wait for someone to buy one so I can get pictures and inspiration to start my chassis again..

mini-z
2007.04.01, 06:36 PM
Over at greyscale we were talking about this stuff and were thinking mini-z could put together a package of parts to make it a roller that you could buy along with the kit. Maybe have some pulldowns to select which motor mount/brand of knuckles etc. that would adjust the price accordingly. So those who have spares just buy the kit, those who want a roller buy the kit + the accessory package. Very similar to what rc flight sites do in packaging electronics.

Absolutely! :)

color01
2007.04.01, 07:24 PM
Sweed: changes are small.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/2420/rd0205neh4.jpg

And I managed to eke out enough space to provide an adapter for a Kyosho oil damper.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/7206/rd0205pkp7.jpg

I'll outline what's in the kit again, as some changes were made to achieve a $75 target price.

I mainly made the basic kit simpler and tried to give the buyer more setup options to compensate. The rear end can use side springs, tri-shocks, disk damper, central oil damper, or any combination of those (excluding side springs + tri-shocks, unless you find threaded rod that is M2 on one end and 2-56 on the other). Also note that the chassis is too narrow to fit three oil dampers in the triangular fashion of, say, the Pro27 (a hot European chassis). The battery bay has been slightly redone; it can fit a 4AAA pack, a Thunder Power 2S 730mAh lithium-polymer, or almost anything smaller.

Included parts:

G10 chassis pieces: main chassis, lower front end, upper front end pieces (0/1.5/3 caster), servo strap, -1/0/+1 toe tierods, battery strap, flex plate, body post/clip mount (doubles as damper mount) disk damper/tri-shock adapter, central oil damper adapter
All required hardware: standoffs, screws, nuts (and if possible, threadable spring perches to adjust rear stiffness with springs).

Required:

MR02 front knuckles, kingpins, springs, c-clips
MR02 ball differential, RM motor mount
Wheels, tires, bearings
Servo, servo saver, receiver and ESC (or combo), motor, battery pack
Body: hard plastic (AutoScale, etc.) or Lexan

Optional:

Extra MR02 front springs for rear end tuning
Atomic RM DPSII spare parts set (includes the 3 plastic shock assemblies)
Atomic AR-071 4.1mm ball nut (for tri-shock system)
Disk damper post (Atomic, PN, etc.)
Disk damper friction disks (Atomic, PN, etc.)
Disk damper springs (Atomic, PN, etc.)
Kyosho MR02 oil damper or equivalent


That should be the complete list. The hardware included is reasonably comprehensive, allowing for multiple configurations. However, for now at least, Lexan body fans will have to provide their own posts and clips. All I can include are the screws.

Mini-z, I assume we'll have to negotiate a bit when the time comes... but I could really use your help in getting this thing out as a product. ;)

CedMan
2007.04.05, 01:02 PM
Looking good, definitely up for one myself.

-Ced

sxysweed
2007.04.13, 01:14 PM
If it's gonna stay at $70, I *might* pick one up if my Crawler idea falls through.

color01
2007.05.08, 03:27 PM
Yeah yeah, more teasers... getting ready to buy a 4-axis CNC mill, so why not take advantage of its capabilities?

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5615/rd0208doq9.jpg


Rear end options:

Here's the basic rear end:
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/271/rd0207cld0.jpg

With side springs:
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5312/rd0207dyo7.jpg

Side springs + oil damper:
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8054/rd0207evi9.jpg

Side springs + disk damper:
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5726/rd0207ffo5.jpg

Disk damper + tri-shock system:
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/2125/rd0207gxa8.jpg

etc.





Mini-Z, is there anything special I need to consider (besides cutting costs) regarding selling this chassis through you? We haven't talked in a while. ;)

Draconious
2007.05.08, 04:21 PM
That tie rod final or temporary in the colored render?

Does the tie rod flex? If so that is going to act like an unbalanced spring from left to right...

If not.. its going to prevent the knuckles from moving up and down with the suspension.. unless there is another seperation between parts from that screw to the knuckle...

arch2b
2007.05.08, 04:38 PM
it looks like the servo horn shoe has depth to it to account for that movement?

Draconious
2007.05.08, 05:15 PM
Cannot see enough of the tie rod to tell, but it just looks like it has enough room for the arch ;) effect in the servo horn...

color01
2007.05.08, 09:59 PM
Drac: The tierod is raised above the knuckle level, just like the standard 02. It won't bend under suspension compression, because the chassis will bottom out before the knuckle forces the tierod upwards. No worries. ;)

Arch: The servo horn shoe does have a lot of depth to allow for different servos and the height of the horn when installed in the chassis. Since it's open-bottomed, you can also take out the tierod without messing with the servo.

Draconious
2007.05.09, 05:17 AM
I still see potential problems... unless there will be more parts to contain it, I fear that if its loose it will not function, or it will jam, twist, or disconnect...

I see the screws on the knuckles as having to lock down, to keep the toe-setting from changing... yet having to be loose to function with the suspension.. and to actualy allow it to be free enough to turn, cannot do both loose and tight on the same screw. Are these using the pre existing mr02 alloy knuckles?

I also think those front tower like parts, to hold the king pin on, could be adjustable for the 015 and 02 front widths... it cold tilt in and out on the rear screw and have 2 front screw holes for setting the width. that should allow the area of the king pin to move the 1-2mm or whatever it is between the cars. But thats just me putting in the adjustability that I am putting in my chassis... ;)

Buying a 4-axis mill... not just for this car I hope? would be cheaper to contract the work out locally... and most of it could be done on a 2D laser cutter. I also asume you know G-Code, or master cam, or cimitron? Mills are NOT easy to use... also you could get away with a 3axis for almost all of those parts... you could always do a manual mill.. but why oh why these days?! ;)

The machine I want is $600,000 and makes titanium parts like a printer ;) Anyone can use it... If I thought I could sell more custom parts to anyone who wants their own parts made... I would buy the machine right now, especialy since they just released a new version with .025mm accuracy!!! Anything can be made on this thing regardless of complexity mold partings etc... from 1mm thick parts to about 7-8" wide parts... titanium rims anyone? ;)

color01
2007.05.09, 04:21 PM
The screws are not on the knuckles, they are on the front hubs, acting as guide pins for the tierod to move left and right. The tierod doesn't have to bend or move up and down at all. Standard MR02 knuckles are used here. I think that's the source of all this confusion. ;)

http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/8012/rd0208ebg2.jpg

I could make an MR015-width front end for this car, but I sacrifice the strength of the hubs (btw, the current ones are hollow inside to save some weight ;)). I can make a narrower front end in the future if necessary, but not now.

I'm sharing the mill with a friend who is heavily involved in the school robotics club, so we're sharing the cost and he's teaching me the school's software along the way. I've checked with a few local and not-so-local machinists, they aren't willing to do the tolerances I'd like for any affordable cost. I want better than +/- 0.0075mm, so we (me + friend) will do the machining and I will hand finish parts if need be. Should be feasible, I'm not making too many kits all at once.

Draconious
2007.05.09, 05:54 PM
The screw is the retainer not part of the knuckle... I see now ;)

You really shouldnt need any better than .01mm tollerance... that is so small its not even measurable by eye... Plastic parts will shrink and warp more than that out of any molds, but you likely wont have molds.

To get parts in this tollerance range even with a CNC machine you have to stop it now and then measure, and then continue the part till it fits the right tollerance this is a major pain in the butt and makes a 20 minute part take 2 hours to make... this is why it will be expensive, and very time consuming if you try to do it yourself you will eventualy give in and accept more tollerance ;). So you could have a economy, and elite version based on tollerance ;).

If I get my machine I can always make parts ;) I need to sell parts so I can afford the beast. The parts from this machine can always be put on a lathe or mill for final specs and tollerances.

color01
2007.05.09, 08:42 PM
The human eye pales in comparison to digital read-outs, lol... I can guarantee you I have the patience, so if I have the time I will be able to do it. ;)

Titanium rims would be godly. ;) But I don't think any RC products are going to offset the expense of a $0.6million machine. I live in the Silicon Valley, and I could still afford a house with that kind of money.


Edit: I seem to have finished my to do list already. For this motor mount, I moved the motor a little to the left in an attempt to better balance the MR02 rear pod (which is originally imbalanced towards the differential side). The ride height adjusters will be cut from Delrin to reduce wear, which has been the only complaint against them.

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/6233/rd0208frq4.jpg

McLaren F1 T3
2007.05.21, 08:31 PM
Looking forward to this! :D

color01
2007.05.23, 07:40 PM
After another week's worth of work, I present the MM iteration of the MRCG concept. Has the same rear end setup possibilities as the RM version, same overall adjustability, just in mid-motor format.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/4516/rd0209hok7.jpg

I'm undecided regarding which version will be sold through the shop (maybe both if the demand is high enough), but that's a decision for you guys (and David) to make. Please let me know!

arch2b
2007.05.23, 07:45 PM
make what you want to see made. i would not determine which based on our desires but what you want to see most. :)

color01
2007.05.23, 08:09 PM
I'm in this to contribute back to the community, so the community needs to be involved. That's my take on it; personally I want to make the RM chassis, stuff a huge LiPo in there, and drift it all day long, but that'll just be me out of at least fifty people who might enjoy an MM chassis more. :)

hrdrvr
2007.05.24, 01:52 PM
I think there are clubs out there that perfer the RM just as there are that prefer MM. When I went down to FL there were guys saying that they thought the MM wasnt set up for race. If it was kyosho would have more race type bodies in the 99mm length. While I dont think thats reasonable justification about which chassis performs better, its proof that there are people who prefer RM to MM. I personally am one of those guys. Im the only one in my little group that uses RM, but Ive got the fastest car out there. Every one else has moved on to the AWDs (I actually started with one), but I still prefer to race the RM 02 to all other cars of mine.

You know my opinion in the RM vs. MM and 94mm vs. 98mm. Just know there are others out there like me :D

color01
2007.05.27, 01:42 AM
Just letting everyone know that the RM version of the MRCG chassis will most likely not make it to the shelves, at least not in the first release. The MM design is more economical, so far more popular, and my machinist friend is worried that we don't have that much time to be making two versions.

If interest in the RM suddenly shoots up I will try to convince my friend otherwise, but tentatively, MRCG will be released only as an MM chassis.

McLaren F1 T3
2007.06.28, 01:48 AM
any updates? it's been a month :(

color01
2007.06.28, 10:40 PM
Workin' on it. Scored a mill off of eBay and now preparing the rest of the computers, software, shelter, etc. needed to run and maintain it. Downloaded a crapload of CAM software demos to find the best one in my price range (looks like BobCAD/CAM is in the lead).

Basically the plan is: school friends and outside services are too slow, so I'll do it myself and send the prototypes to GSR teammates (for testing) and David aka Mini-Z for evaluation, ASAP.

homestar21
2007.06.29, 05:38 PM
Just letting everyone know that the RM version of the MRCG chassis will most likely not make it to the shelves, at least not in the first release. The MM design is more economical, so far more popular, and my machinist friend is worried that we don't have that much time to be making two versions.

If interest in the RM suddenly shoots up I will try to convince my friend otherwise, but tentatively, MRCG will be released only as an MM chassis.

Now that you have a mill will you be doing all the work on your own? And if so, does that mean the RM version is a possibility?
Thanks! :D

color01
2007.06.29, 10:50 PM
Yes, manufacturing is literally in-house now.

Unfortunately, the aluminum RM mounts take a lot longer to do than all four pieces of the MM mount, and the material costs more (a big chunk of aluminum). In addition, I don't have the time to be making kits AND spares for two products, and I don't think David will appreciate taking such a big risk all at once, so a production RM version is out of the question at the moment.

color01
2007.07.16, 12:11 AM
Now along the line of potential option parts (for the MM chassis, just to make clear)... I have a few ideas and extra designs.

Rear pod upgrade kit for 12mm brushless motor
Front end titanium screw set
Midsection titanium screw set
Rear pod titanium screw set
Lightweight rear ball differential set
Ball diff replacement plates and balls set
Ball diff replacement shaft
Carbon fiber chassis conversion kit

However, I ran into a hitch. The G10 fiberglass will be dyed black for the production kits. Regular CF looks pretty much like G10 fiberglass from far away, so I might need to offer an SSG chassis instead of regular CF.

Any thoughts on CF vs. SSG? I make no guarantees on any option parts being available in the end (limited time and resources), but I would like to know which woven graphite is more popular before buying anything and going any further.

marc
2007.07.16, 05:10 PM
Hello there. Cool designs! I have a question concerning the side body mounts. They look like they have the tendency to pop the body off if hit. Need to find out how secure they actually are. I'd love to see a ready set be available minus the body and transmitter.

color01
2007.07.16, 06:09 PM
Should be as secure as the standard Mini-Z body mounting system, as the fiberglass bits interlock and are supposed to be glued together. ;)

This mill had better come soon...

Used2xmodding
2007.07.28, 02:47 PM
how much are u expecting for it to sell for?

cool design

Limeaway
2007.07.28, 03:05 PM
Page 3...His target price is $75 ;)

color01
2007.08.22, 12:33 AM
Updates, finally.

The CNC stuff has finally come, after multiple threats on my part to file an eBay dispute. I got the CNC mill working, and ran a test program through it. Seems to work well, although I won't be able to see the tolerances until I build some prototype parts. At any rate, the thing IS working at least, so I can finally legitimately say I'm on my way to getting this chassis produced for those interested. ;)

byebye
2007.08.22, 06:31 AM
Cool man looking forward to some updates.

Kris

Flashsp-2
2007.08.24, 03:25 AM
It sucks that it took so long to get all the equipment in, but I'm excited to see some progress. I'm still in for a chassis, thats for sure. Already have the pan body, mounted/trued foams, and electronics ready to rock. You're still going 98mm correct?

Looking forward to seeing pics of some chassis parts :D

color01
2007.09.08, 05:26 PM
First batch of G10 prototype parts! The cut quality is no good, but it's mainly because I used a ruined endmill to cut with. The holes will be countersunk later, no worries.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/866/millingpe4.jpg

I plan to get these parts made correctly before moving on to the fancy 4-axis work, so check back for updates. :)

Hammer
2007.09.08, 07:32 PM
First batch of G10 prototype parts! The cut quality is no good, but it's mainly because I used a ruined endmill to cut with. The holes will be countersunk later, no worries. I plan to get these parts made correctly before moving on to the fancy 4-axis work, so check back for updates. :)Very cool, thanks for the update. :) Also thanks for sharing your learning process regarding manufacturing, it's a great resource for those interested but not familiar with how it's done. ;)

color01
2007.10.07, 05:32 PM
I was using the wrong units! D'oh. I have the feed rates right this time, and edge quality is much better, though the cutting bit didn't go deep enough to separate the pieces entirely from the stock. (It turns out that this plate of fiberglass is slightly thicker than 1/32".)

If you look closely at the picture, you'll notice there are two "kinds" of edges. I was playing around with the settings and found that really slow speeds (6mm/min) are really good but take forever, slightly higher speeds (15-30mm/min) are terrible, and the proper speed (150mm/min) nets nearly perfect cuts (check the outside edges of the flex plates).

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/4401/milling004un1.jpg

So that's my update. Since I have a 3-day weekend I should be able to do some more work on the fiberglass and get that all sorted out and perfect. The Delrin and aluminum parts may have to wait since I still need some screws to mount my micro vise to the rotary table. Rest assured I will get this done as fast as I possibly can!

MikeL
2007.10.08, 09:01 AM
Very cool looking project, have you tested any standard electronics for fit? can you fit a novak spy and spektrum micro reciever on the top plate?

color01
2007.10.08, 03:33 PM
Side by side, definitely. If you decased them both you might be able to fit one in front of the other. (I haven't checked that one yet)

The cleanest fit would actually be a Losi Micro-T board, but unless I'm forgetting something the chassis will also hold any Mini-Z board.

color01
2007.10.12, 12:48 AM
Ok, I've got good and bad news.

Good news first: edge quality is perfect on the longer cuts.
Bad news: edge quality on the countersinks has gone down.
Worse news: the mill seems to jam up right around this one spot of travel. I have no idea where to look for the cure; the mill is freshly lubed up with WD-40 and the rails are clean. Yet there's a slight grinding noise and sometimes the whole thing just jams while the CNC control software believes it's still going.

Check Exhibit A:

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8436/milling005xi3.jpg

marc
2007.10.12, 11:33 AM
Hi there, do you have a way to check the gearing on the CNC machine? It might be gears binding or not meshing right. I dont' know anything about these machines, but knowing mechanics, it does sound like a gearing problem. Just a thought!

ruf
2007.10.12, 01:44 PM
WD40 is not a lube. Use grease.

color01
2007.10.12, 07:08 PM
I've been reprimanded for that multiple times now, lol... thanks ruf. I've lubed the machine and jogged it around the axes a couple times, hasn't jammed YET. I'll have to try running the program again to see where the problem area is. Will use styrene stock instead of wasting fiberglass. :rolleyes:

Hammer
2007.10.12, 07:17 PM
WD40 is not a lube. Use grease.Absolutely correct, WD40 actually attracts moisture i.e. corrosion & rust. ;)

color01
2007.10.13, 08:19 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40 :confused: Slight discrepancy...

Mill is still jogging smooth. I will be really, really frustrated if it jams during the test program tonight.

Hammer
2007.10.14, 08:28 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40 :confused: Slight discrepancy...Sorry to disagree with wikipedia however I've been in the construction industry for 30 years and started using WD40 when I was in the Navy in 1969. It has its uses but the very last thing you want to use WD40 on is a lock-set. The WD will attract dust, dirt and moisture over time and will ultimately make the problem worse.

color01
2007.10.16, 10:53 PM
Thanks for the infobit. :)

I'll be updating this post tomorrow when I have some prototype pictures to show (knock on wood).

color01
2007.11.02, 11:37 PM
First functional prototype!

Pics first.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9356/rmproto002lo5.jpg

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/4248/rmproto001ql4.jpg

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/3913/rmproto003nl4.jpg

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1126/rmproto004xr1.jpg

Comments:

1) The mill countersunk two of the holes a little deeper than the rest. This might have something to do with my fixturing platform (it's not perfectly trued yet), so I'll look into it.
2) I accidentally used climb milling for everything, and had to file the parts a bit to get the finish you see here. Still, not bad.
3) The chassis went together very smoothly. After the finishing filing, I had only minimal filing to do to make the kingpins fit into the holders. And once in, they are very snug.
4) The rear suspension is a good stiffness up and down, but the roll stiffness is rather high, even for my tastes. I do not know how this will factor into real-world driving yet.
5) The front end will not flex unless you hit something really hard. I've been testing it with Kyosho hard springs and so far there is no visible flex.
6) The tierod movement is a little bit stiffer than the MR02, although this is partially because I preloaded the hard springs.

All in all a decent job, I hope to have the elecs soldered together quite soon and some bearings, wheels and tires (doh, I sold 'em...) and this car will be ready to go!

byebye
2007.11.03, 09:29 AM
Looking good!

Kris

wes
2007.11.03, 02:34 PM
Very nice! It looks strong enough to handle some crashes too :p

edit: do you find any flex without a structural upper deck? Like say if the battery brace were longer and bolted down near the front of the chassis as well to stiffen it?

color01
2007.11.07, 06:57 AM
I'm reasonably strong and I have to use quite some force to bend the chassis a noticeable amount, so I'm pretty confident this car won't need a 4-point upper deck. :)

Got some more work done just now (yes, it's 5AM. Don't worry about it). My soldering skills have improved from last time when I jacked up a pad off my MR02 board. The car is currently riding on plastic and metal bushings (!) so don't expect it to run quite yet.

Note the new uber-low oil damper config. Now the only things that even reach wheel level are an antenna, two motor wires and a crystal holder. That's pretty darn low if you ask me. ;)

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7654/rmproto007sp4.jpg

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/3259/rmproto010un3.jpg

Front end detail: Kingpins are held up by exactly 1/8" of fiberglass milled to spec, it's stiff. I also got a clean conversion on the HS-50; you'd have to know beforehand that it was a 3-wire servo... :)

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/7237/rmproto008nd6.jpg

Rear end detail: Got those side springs in, they work well and don't click on the spring perches as I had worried about earlier. Also illustrates the height of the oil damper and the amount of leeway you have to shift the batteries back and forth. Granted, on the MM 'production' car this space won't be quite so large, but I'll give you guys as much as possible.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/56/rmproto009yy0.jpg


Now if only the Shop had bearings in stock... :rolleyes:

wes
2007.11.07, 09:01 AM
Hehe a Micro-t board! can that handle a 130 size motor? Looks awesome man! Can't wait to see a 98mm MM version for pan car mod :D :D :D

arch2b
2007.11.07, 09:22 AM
no reason why you ccouldn't install the micro-t lipo and brushless system :p

Flashsp-2
2007.11.07, 03:10 PM
Brian, that thing is beautiful. Glad to see all those hours of frustration and hard work have brought about something meaningful. Can't wait for the production version, already have the goods lined up for it :D

color01
2007.11.08, 09:14 PM
Thanks guys. With the exception of a battery pack and a bearing set, MRCG #001 is ready to go! ;)

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7784/rmproto013sez7.jpg

Considering the ball diff, motor mount and oil damper, it appears I've managed to shave a few grams off the MR02's chassis weight. That's not bad.

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/746/rmproto016gl9.jpg

ivanmartin18
2007.11.12, 06:10 AM
Nice design, congratulations!

Is this ESC a Micro-T ESC? Is it lighter and smaller than the standard Kyosho ESC?

Bye!

Limeaway
2007.11.12, 08:32 PM
Nice design, congratulations!

Is this ESC a Micro-T ESC? Is it lighter and smaller than the standard Kyosho ESC?

Bye!

To answer your first question, yes, it is a micro-t esc. About the weight, I'm not so sure which one is heavier/lighter. Size, they are pretty much the same really, but the micro-t esc is obviously wider. These factors won't really affect the performance of the MR-CG though, I'm sure. They're both small and light in general.

Again, sweet friggen' chassis color! Amazing how far you've come!

color01
2007.11.14, 02:19 AM
The Micro-T board may be marginally heavier, but I'm not positive. It IS half the price, however, for nearly equal performance.

Right now, testing the body mount locations on the RM proto. The side body mounts are pretty good, I'll move them forwards a little to push the chassis that 0.5mm back but the ride height is correct (remember that I haven't lowered the chassis itself yet). The front body mount/clip required some handiwork to get the right ride height, so it looks like I'll be moving them as well.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/1231/nsx05001xw1.jpg

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/7456/nsx05002ru0.jpg

byebye
2007.11.14, 05:48 AM
Looking good!

Kris

ruf
2007.11.16, 12:10 AM
The Micro-T board may be marginally heavier, but I'm not positive. It IS half the price, however, for nearly equal performance.Barf. I'll have to disagree on that one. The Micro-T electronics are awful. Absolutely no range at all. I run a Mini-Z board in my Micro-Baja, and that turned it from a living room basher into something more race-viable. I am desperately looking forward to the 2.4GHz Mini-Z boards... :)

Aside from that, the chassis looks great. Thumbs up from me! :D

InZane
2007.11.16, 02:58 AM
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/7456/nsx05002ru0.jpg

Nice wheels! :D
Best of luck with your project!

cdog4w
2007.11.16, 12:10 PM
Barf. I'll have to disagree on that one. The Micro-T electronics are awful. Absolutely no range at all. I run a Mini-Z board in my Micro-Baja, and that turned it from a living room basher into something more race-viable. I am desperately looking forward to the 2.4GHz Mini-Z boards... :)

Aside from that, the chassis looks great. Thumbs up from me! :D

I don't think they're any worse than mini-z, but it does sound like your antenna was coming loose. Its a known issue with the micro-t boards and easily fixed. I also run mine with a KO Mars so that helps but the range should certainly be adequate to run until you can't really see it very well!

Z_408
2007.11.20, 03:15 PM
The Micro-T board may be marginally heavier, but I'm not positive. It IS half the price, however, for nearly equal performance.

Right now, testing the body mount locations on the RM proto. The side body mounts are pretty good, I'll move them forwards a little to push the chassis that 0.5mm back but the ride height is correct (remember that I haven't lowered the chassis itself yet). The front body mount/clip required some handiwork to get the right ride height, so it looks like I'll be moving them as well.

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/1231/nsx05001xw1.jpg

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/7456/nsx05002ru0.jpg


When are you going to bring this bad boy on the track?

ruf
2007.11.21, 03:01 AM
I don't think they're any worse than mini-z, but it does sound like your antenna was coming loose. Its a known issue with the micro-t boards and easily fixed. I also run mine with a KO Mars so that helps but the range should certainly be adequate to run until you can't really see it very well!That's funny. Mine would work ok with the stock transmitter, but was awful with my Helios. I'll give it another try someday.

TALLGEESE
2007.11.21, 12:44 PM
I don't think they're any worse than mini-z, but it does sound like your antenna was coming loose. Its a known issue with the micro-t boards and easily fixed. I also run mine with a KO Mars so that helps but the range should certainly be adequate to run until you can't really see it very well!

I've encountered the same problem with my Micro-T, crappy radio range/reception.. I've noticed that with the Micro-T you're constantly re-adjusting the reciever wire to keep it straight, which can lead to the wire becoming loose/frayed at the base/circuitboard connection.. I just replaced the stock reciever wire with some slightly stiffer/longer wire for more durability and extra range.. Mine works great now with no problems...

color01
2007.11.21, 03:06 PM
When are you going to bring this bad boy on the track?
To be honest, I don't think I have the time to until mid-Dec., which is far too late if I want to release the chassis before Xmas. So I've arranged for some GSR members with stronger racing backgrounds than mine to test the newest prototypes, which are currently being machined.


Edit: Seems like a vibration issue I think, but the edge quality is bad on a few parts, while on others it came out of the mill perfect. Additionally, none of the countersinks went deep enough and they look white, even after washing. :confused: I'll look into it, but for now here's 85% of the revised MM prototype. Disk damper is planned to be integral to the kit, and it works great in my fingers, but only further testing will tell if it's a worthwhile addition to the kit.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2365/mmproto001wv7.jpg

Additional features that I should mention: the spare upper deck in the foreground is for 94mm wheelbase compatability! So all MR02 bodies (which coincidentally have 94 or 98mm wheelbases) will now fit on this chassis. I've tested the upper deck (also dropped the chassis :o ) and it should be strong enough to handle most crashes.

The tierod horn pieces are the t-shaped things. I'll illustrate how to put it together soon.

color01
2007.12.09, 04:11 PM
And a testing video on my indoor 'course' (there's a concrete track in the garage but today the big cars have made it wet and muddy). It's not really a good indication of how well the car will perform on a proper track, but at the very least it shows the car in action.

InZane's going to come scolding me already, I know. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrikpi78MPI

byebye
2007.12.09, 05:15 PM
I replied on YOUTUBE. Looks very stable. I'm pretty impressed.

As I said in the replies. Someone needs to donate and RCP track to this guy for testing at home.

Kris

arch2b
2007.12.09, 05:44 PM
i would but i've already reached my quota of 4 wide l's :o

Hammer
2007.12.09, 05:55 PM
I agree, this chassis would handle amazingly on an RCP track. :D

Kel
2007.12.09, 06:38 PM
How is the turning radius compared to a stock MR-02?

color01
2007.12.09, 08:01 PM
Absolute turning radius is a tiny bit tighter than the MR02 thanks to a bit more steering throw and slightly increased Ackerman. I did turn down the dual rate a bit for this video as I suspected the front tires were rubbing a bit on the inside of the shell (ride height about 2.5mm).

I should be able to finish off the last 4.5 hours of this 24hr test within the next few days and then we'll check the chassis to see if anything has loosened since the 3rd hour when I tightened up the flex plate nuts. ;)

color01
2007.12.21, 01:37 AM
I took the car to the tennis court recently, drove over 2"x1" ruts (2" wide, 1" deep!) in the concrete, heard the chassis smack the ground each time, but nothing broke or loosened up. That's good from a durability standpoint. :)

Even with the batteries pushed full forward, the car has massive rear grip. I was still using medium-compound GRP foams front and rear so it should've spun like a top, but all I got was a moderate degree of understeer and a little slide if you brake too hard and wrench the wheel. I'm more than happy with the results.

Cleaning is about the same time-wise as your average MR02. For those concerned about electronics: I didn't have any glitching issues despite all the dust on that board, but you may want to seal/heatshrink/case electronics if you drive in more rigorous environments. Indoor cars will have no issues.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5187/nsx05017cb1.jpg

I've also been working on the MM production car, of course, and the G10 chassis parts are already done:

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/6315/mmproto003rc9.jpg

And I'm just working on the production motor mounts (Delrin rear axle bearing carriers are done, just need to change some settings to make it easier to slip the bearings in). My apologies for the picture quality, but it's tough to lean into the enclosure while trying to hold a steady hand, lol...

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/7564/milling019ir3.jpg

Anyways, we're pretty close to release and you can rest assured that the pictures and news will be everywhere when that happens -- including the new Ask GSR subforum which I will make good use of very soon. ;)

homestar21
2007.12.23, 09:14 PM
Looking very nice color!
I'm hoping to buy one (if it comes out anytime soon. ;) )
I want it so badly.
Anyways, I wanted to ask you a question. (Since the ask gsr subforum isn't anywhere I know of) :
Have you spoken to briankstan or anyone at HFAY about running these babies? ;)
Unless it would be cheating. :p

Scrapper
2007.12.24, 04:51 AM
in a sence this is a mod chasis but u are using slightly less powerful than stock z electronics so mayb if u use micro t board and stock motor ask

color01
2007.12.24, 04:53 AM
I'm busy getting the press car and the documentation ready so you bet it will be available soon. ;)

This car obviously doesn't qualify for stock class, but I believe HFAY open class is truly open, thus the MRCG is fine in that respect.

And the Ask GSR subforum IS open now. ;)

homestar21
2007.12.24, 03:54 PM
Wow! That answers all my questions! Haha, I cannot wait! I'm so ready to buy myself a Christmas present, regardless of how late a present. ;)

Nice job with the subforum, and the MRCG should be in HFAY, but not for the people that are too good. :rolleyes:

P.S. You should sign em, for that extra touch. I'd pay extra. :p

homestar21
2007.12.24, 05:29 PM
Like posted on Infernal, the list of parts needed is here, but I have a couple Q's. Should I have posted this in the subforum? If so, just tell me.
In the parts needed list, there's this: 48dp 2mm shaft pinion. What exactly is that, just any pinion for a motor I'm guessing?
And will a tiny screwdriver or hex nut driver be included? ;)
Sorry for the double post.
Oh yeah, and do you have any reccomendations for the battery pack, or should we just get a some batteries and put em in a battery holder soldered to the board, or will there be options for it to come with something for batteries?
Thanks!

color01
2007.12.24, 05:47 PM
Your last post you should put in the subforum, it's very pertinent to other customers as well. I'll answer them here and there when you post. ;)

You need a 48-pitch, 2mm-shaft pinion, otherwise known as a Mini-Z pinion. I left the option a little more vague because some Xray M18 and HPI Micro RS4 pinions also fit (although you can't go too big on these pinions). The range of pinions I would recommend is 6-10t. Any larger and the motor might hit the disk damper on a large bump.

I didn't plan on including a hex nut driver, but I'll cut a cute little G10 nut wrench to make things a tiny bit easier. :)

The car is designed for battery packs, and is intended for you to solder the AAA cells together yourself. You'll have a hard time finding a 4AAA cell holder that can hold all four batteries so close together. I spent a lot of time researching AAA cell holders intended for surface-mounting on PCBs, but just couldn't justify the expense (small quantities from large suppliers = ugh...).

I have found a couple of ready-made, heatshrinked 4AAA packs but they are meant for receivers in nitro cars, and kind of a shortcut solution for the MRCG since the cells aren't suited to high current drain as far as I know.

cowboysir
2007.12.28, 08:40 AM
Thought I'd take this opportunity to brag...

I wound up convincing color0 to sell me an MM prototype chassis that he felt didn't have very clean cut lines during the fabricating process. He deemed it not worthy of his efforts for his time constraints limiting his time at hand polishing edges, etc.

Well, I received the chassis in the mail yesterday and after a brief inspection I must say that color0 standards are much higher than some other aftermarket companies. I've seen and purchased some nice chassis for other scale vehicles (mainly 18th's) and color0's "second" is comparable in quality to other's sellable, finished product.

IMO, color0's finished product will most likely be a work of art.

Stay tuned for my test drive...I'm not the fastest mini-z'er around but I have some knowledge on tuning and teching so hopefully I can give some good feedback on MRCG's abilities on RCP. ;)

byebye
2007.12.28, 09:10 AM
Thought I'd take this opportunity to brag...

I wound up convincing color0 to sell me an MM prototype chassis that he felt didn't have very clean cut lines during the fabricating process. He deemed it not worthy of his efforts for his time constraints limiting his time at hand polishing edges, etc.

Well, I received the chassis in the mail yesterday and after a brief inspection I must say that color0 standards are much higher than some other aftermarket companies. I've seen and purchased some nice chassis for other scale vehicles (mainly 18th's) and color0's "second" is comparable in quality to other's sellable, finished product.

IMO, color0's finished product will most likely be a work of art.

Stay tuned for my test drive...I'm not the fastest mini-z'er around but I have some knowledge on tuning and teching so hopefully I can give some good feedback on MRCG's abilities on RCP. ;)

You LUCKY DOG!!!
Looking forward to your review.
Kris

color01
2008.01.02, 03:45 AM
While Cowboy's working on that...

To tide this thing over until my final exams are done, here's the latest render straight out of the manual:

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/4834/render07ta4.jpg

Special features include infinitely-adjustable suspension stiffness (yes, infinite :)), quick-release battery strap, Delrin everything in the rear pod, and a new motor mount that doesn't need drilled cans.

I haven't come up with a good enough servo saver so you'll need a servo saver intended for 1/18.

With a Ti-shaft ball diff and the small electronics (the new ASF board is just one possibility) the MRCG should weigh around 135g without body; that's 5-10g less than a similarly equipped MR02, not too bad.

xoxide
2008.01.02, 05:51 PM
Well, I have the MR-02... Just waitin' on you.

You can use the stock Mini Z electronics can't you?

Because if not im going all out with all the little bits, and electronics.

color01
2008.01.02, 08:19 PM
Yup, the stock MR02 board can fit transversely on the chassis. Longitudinally will be a challenge, you'd have to reverse the servo and it would still be a tight fit.

There might actually be enough room to fit the board vertically (still transverse, of course) right between the servo and the battery pack. I didn't design this into the chassis but it looks like you could pull it off if you kept the wiring very compact and relocated the crystal holder to the battery strap.

Edit in light of Arch's post: I realized the ASF boards were shorter so I already modeled one to render with the chassis (see the last pic I posted). :)

arch2b
2008.01.02, 08:40 PM
keep in mind the new 2.4ghz boards are shorter, see ruf's posts on the matter. these should provide the best route for out of the box electronics and are affordably priced.

color01
2008.01.13, 01:36 PM
Sneak peek of the MM car...

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/7674/mmproto012hh4.jpg

This is with a steel diff shaft too, so with a Ti-shaft this translates into 133g flat. That's light. :cool:

Kel
2008.01.13, 03:15 PM
Very nice Color0, could you tell us how the non-drilled motor can system works and what type of lengths (94mm-98mm) are you planning to offer for the MM mounts. I'm very interested in seeing the final product.

color01
2008.01.13, 05:23 PM
Sure thing Kel. The car sitting on my desk can do both 94 and 98mm wheelbases; it just requires a different upper brace. The motor mount works similar to the GPM slider mount, except the slots are countersunk into the chassis rather than on the sides of the pod.

I'm going out for testing in a bit so we'll see how the car handles in a practical application like RCP. Thanks Christian for the setup tip regarding rear droop; it hasn't made any difference on hardwood, but I imagine it will when there's more body roll.

supafastsupra2
2008.01.13, 07:11 PM
Wow, that IS light. 94/98wheelbase mm is definitely a plus. Will you be making the chassis adaptable to the new LM 102mm bodies?

color01
2008.01.13, 08:11 PM
Already planned. ;) All this info will be in the official announcement, which as you can probably guess, will be soon. :)

supafastsupra2
2008.01.13, 09:25 PM
sweet. who does your cnc'ing btw?

color01
2008.01.14, 04:33 AM
I do it personally. ;) that's why it takes so long to make each one.

Got some good pictures of the entire thing assembled:

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/236/mmproto013sbe5.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/5169/mmproto014syq4.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/6140/mmproto015spk2.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/648/mmproto022szi7.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/2804/mmproto021sga9.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/3870/mmproto017sof5.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/1675/mmproto018srf8.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/2323/mmproto019smp3.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9257/mmproto020sft5.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/7501/mmproto023sfq4.jpg

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/4410/mmproto024sgu8.jpg

Hammer
2008.01.14, 07:47 AM
Color, that looks so sweet, fantastic work! Can't wait until you get them in production, thanks for the great finished pics. :D

color01
2008.01.14, 12:57 PM
Thanks Hammer! We still have some minor finishing details to iron out before release, but that's the only thing keeping this proto here from being a production model. We're planning on February/March; it's about time after so many delays and setbacks. :)

Kel
2008.01.14, 03:44 PM
Color0, It looks awesome. I can't wait until the release. Can you tell me a bit more about this g10 material? I'm used to seeing CF chassies and wanted to know the differences and advantages, besides cost, that your material has. Also, will the final procduct be a solid color? or will you have the upper plate be the off-white color?

color01
2008.01.14, 04:34 PM
G10 is the material you see used in 1/12 pan car T-bars. It's a little more flexible and a little heavier than CF, but much more durable, easier to machine, and an electrical insulator (as you know, CF is conductive). So the net result is that the MRCG is a little softer than other pan cars (although still a little stiffer than an MR02). Whether you like that or not is up to you, of course, but the MRCG isn't as edgy as some other pan cars you may have driven.

I'm not sure what everyone else thinks but I like the two-tone going on. :) I plan to keep this color scheme for a bit of a unique look over the typical CF stuff. Although I admit, CF does look pretty cool. Just not quite the right material for the goals I want to achieve with this car.

Hammer
2008.01.14, 04:47 PM
I'm not sure what everyone else thinks but I like the two-tone going on. :) I plan to keep this color scheme for a bit of a unique look over the typical CF stuff. Although I admit, CF does look pretty cool. Just not quite the right material for the goals I want to achieve with this car.I really like the contrast in the two-tone scheme, from a design standpoint. I'm glad you're going with the current look, again, I can't wait. :D

lfisminiz
2008.01.14, 06:47 PM
color- recieved the prototype/test chassis today. Thanks it looks great. Cant wait for the final version. Larry.

color01
2008.01.14, 08:59 PM
Sweet, hope you like it. ;)

Not a huge setback but thought everyone should know... my Micro-T board has mysteriously half-died. When the car's at a standstill the motor gets zero power. Not even any of the PWM noise to show that the motor circuit is at least responding. Once you give the car a kick, however, it accelerates like a beast and you can keep going until the car comes to a stop again.

Any ideas? This happens for both forward and reverse, and I've tried various Xtals and transmitters. Nothing's worked yet, except giving the diff a shove.

mk2kompressor
2008.01.14, 09:43 PM
have you tried a different motor?
you probably have but just checking,sounds like a loose winding connection on the comm.
or maybe a dry joint on the board,you wouldnt get the noise unless the fets are under load

Felix2010
2008.01.14, 09:44 PM
Sweet, hope you like it. ;)

Not a huge setback but thought everyone should know... my Micro-T board has mysteriously half-died. When the car's at a standstill the motor gets zero power. Not even any of the PWM noise to show that the motor circuit is at least responding. Once you give the car a kick, however, it accelerates like a beast and you can keep going until the car comes to a stop again.

Any ideas? This happens for both forward and reverse, and I've tried various Xtals and transmitters. Nothing's worked yet, except giving the diff a shove.

color, you sure it's the PCB? I've had this happen to me before and it was the motor that was the problem - Something was wrong with the armature. Could also be a brush or magnet problem.
I've also had this happen when I put two of the same magnet inside a motor I built.
Thought I'd bring this up since it looks like you have a new motor in that puppy :D

color01
2008.01.14, 09:48 PM
I'm not particularly suspecting the motor because the car's been running for 3 hours before this problem started occuring... nevertheless, I'll check it. Thanks for the quick replies!

And if the PCB is really dead, I have an excuse to treat myself to new/better stuff, lol... but of course I'd like to cure the issue first.

lsarccc
2008.01.15, 06:52 AM
Very nice!

(Is the top brush spring on the motor sat properly? Bottom pic looks like it's sat on the hood rather than the brush?)

Davey G
2008.01.15, 07:38 AM
I'm not particularly suspecting the motor because the car's been running for 3 hours before this problem started occuring... nevertheless, I'll check it. Thanks for the quick replies!

And if the PCB is really dead, I have an excuse to treat myself to new/better stuff, lol... but of course I'd like to cure the issue first.

I have been admiring your work for quite some time now. What servo are you playing with on the Micro T board. I see its a 5 wire, just curious. Thanks and awesome work once again!!!!

TALLGEESE
2008.01.15, 11:22 AM
Sweet, hope you like it. ;)

Not a huge setback but thought everyone should know... my Micro-T board has mysteriously half-died. When the car's at a standstill the motor gets zero power. Not even any of the PWM noise to show that the motor circuit is at least responding. Once you give the car a kick, however, it accelerates like a beast and you can keep going until the car comes to a stop again.

Any ideas? This happens for both forward and reverse, and I've tried various Xtals and transmitters. Nothing's worked yet, except giving the diff a shove.


Color, both me and VAzRACER on here have experienced the exact same problem with our'e Micro-T's... The car would run fine, then unexpectedly die/shut-off while running.. The only way we could get the car to run again was to cycle the On-Off switch a few times and the car would turn back on, only to shut-off again 5-10 minutes later :confused:... The only reason we can find for this is because maybe the board is overheating?? One thing that we did notice is that the problem became worse when we switched over from the standard NIMH pack to the optional LI-PO pack that LOSI offers for the Micro-T... Hope that helps...

marc
2008.01.15, 12:55 PM
I never experienced that problem with my Micro-T's until I started using the Lipo, then it would cut off on me. I beleive the brushless motor system and receiver pack will solve that problem.

color01
2008.01.15, 02:33 PM
The board isn't actually shutting down though; I have steering at all times. The board and FETs are cool to the touch so I think you guys are right about the motor having lost connection somewhere. The brushes are seated properly too so my soldering job is most likely at fault. I'll try the older motor from the RM proto, that thing's been reliable for over a year. Thanks for all the suggestions!

Dave- I hacked the control board out of a Hitec HS-50. Did I fool ya? :D

Hammer
2008.01.15, 03:11 PM
I never experienced the shut down problem when I started using the Losi Li-Po pack with my Micro-T, everything worked fine. I was suspecting a cold solder joint regarding the motor wiring as well. ;)

color01
2008.01.15, 08:50 PM
I've narrowed it down to something regarding the brushes sitting on the comm, or the comm itself. The motor is able to start itself if I manually rotate it to a certain position; but otherwise, it can't. I'll keep working on this, and use the other motor if I can't get this one working. Meanwhile I've got a few more pre-production test cars to build. :)

lsarccc
2008.01.16, 03:58 PM
Dead pole on the motor? Check continuity of the winds?

mk2kompressor
2008.01.16, 04:06 PM
^^without a doubt^^ :)

xoxide
2008.01.16, 05:02 PM
MMM, that MM is lookin pretty tastey! Might have to get me one!

color01
2008.01.16, 10:13 PM
Well, I put the old motor back in. Still as powerful, not quite as punchy (a little smoother), but it rolls for a longer time than the new one. This came as quite a surprise.

Anyhow, I switched out the foams for rubber tires. GPM 40's in front and Atomic 20's (straight grooves, not AW groove) in back. And wow... mad rear traction. :eek: For anybody who's raced an MR02 on waxed hardwood, you guys all know that without the right tire setup it's just a spinfest. This car's totally different. Now I don't have enough front grip! I deliberately tried to powerslide it around the corners, and found that like the RM car, it's easy to control the tail end of the car using the throttle. When you nail it, the tail slips out a bit, then it catches itself and progressively straightens out, just like a textbook rally drift. Absolutely delightful to watch. :)

Since these flex plates have been broken in, they're just about perfect. Definitely softer than an MR02 soft t-plate (Christian, no more worrying about the flex, okay?). The full soft setting creates too much understeer and full stiff makes for a nice four-wheel-drift. Adjustments take about 30 seconds(can you switch t-plates that fast? I'd be seriously impressed); I could easily tune the car for more steering as my battery power wound down. The one thing you do have to take care of is keeping the adjustment symmetrical on both sides, but other than that this infinite-adjustability concept works great.

I need to get a set of front 30 and 20deg tires so I can evaluate the overall traction balance on RCP, where there will be enough grip to make the car understeer even more. And I will be stopping by at Inside Line sometime to give this car a thorough (and official) thrashing. :)

Hammer
2008.01.17, 05:09 PM
It looks to me like the super low center of gravity plus the very adjustable suspension is combining to make this a very fun chassis to drive. Since I upgraded my Micro-T to brushless, I have this Micro-T PCB just sitting here waiting for one of your chassis. :D

How do we get in line for purchase when you go into production? :)

color01
2008.01.19, 01:11 PM
We've been trying to work out a couple possibilities. Since every chassis has to be made to order and it takes a few days per chassis, the online retail option isn't looking too good. I realize everyone's more comfortable using a Paypal shopping interface than sending money to a specific account, so I will be setting up a simple "Buy Now" Paypal button on our website (once it's up). We should be able to get in contact with customers right after they've sent in an order, so everyone's happy and I'm happy. :)

Edit 2: got a new video for the battery changes. 14 seconds fast enough? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2KTF3LqCgM

Nasher
2008.01.19, 02:25 PM
Amazing!!! I think i missed the price, how much would a conversion from MR-02 be?

Hammer
2008.01.19, 03:43 PM
Edit 2: got a new video for the battery changes. 14 seconds fast enough? :)The battery pack change video looks great and I think the Buy Now prepay is a good idea. You are covered up front for your costs and we get to play with your new creation, a good deal all around. :D

color01
2008.01.19, 08:22 PM
Thanks guys! I'm sure that we can get near 10 seconds once the Deans plugs loosen up (the packs were soldered only last week) and my house isn't so cold, lol... but anyways, the video illustrates what even a low-dexterity fellow like me can do with the car.

Hoping Inside Line is open Monday; this long weekend should be pretty useful in terms of car production and testing.

Nasher
2008.01.19, 09:49 PM
Thanks guys! I'm sure that we can get near 10 seconds once the Deans plugs loosen up (the packs were soldered only last week) and my house isn't so cold, lol... but anyways, the video illustrates what even a low-dexterity fellow like me can do with the car.

Hoping Inside Line is open Monday; this long weekend should be pretty useful in terms of car production and testing.

If you go to inside line about what time would you go I want to see this in action

color01
2008.01.20, 03:08 AM
I've sent Z_408 an email regarding Inside Line's opening hours on Monday; I don't think I can make it there tomorrow before they close.

Anyhow, if you do go to Inside Line anytime soon look for a literally unpainted McLaren on black wheels. It looks similar to Tjay's car, however mine doesn't have taillight lenses.

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2711/mmproto031cp6.jpg

minittrackmann
2008.01.20, 10:31 PM
Hey how thick is the G10 fiberglass you are using for the MRCG?

Cody

color01
2008.01.20, 11:58 PM
This has been answered already in the Ask GSR section. ;) 1.5mm black and 0.8mm natural G10. :)


----------------------------------------

I apologize for the horrible picture but here's some proof that the Delrin idea works. For comparison, a stock MR02 pod weighs 5.8g. :)

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/3176/mmproto032wf3.jpg

color01
2008.01.21, 10:00 PM
Okay, back from the track.

Lessons learned...

1) I need more power. 39t is enough to get going on the Inside Line track but I'll probably have to go down to a 33t to keep up with the faster cars.
2) I should've tried a 9t pinion. Oh well...
3) What Binh and I thought was major tweak was actually the servo not steering evenly in both directions. Largely fixed; there's still a little bit of tweak that looks like it's caused by the shims I used. (They're not particularly precise shims, unfortunately).
4) The MRCG is OK through the corners but the flex plates are too stiff, and not having enough droop does hurt rear traction. I bought some soft nylon a while ago in case the G10 flex plates did prove to be too stiff, so I'll be cutting new flex plates.
5) The chassis is still soft. Using nylon flex plates and a wider chassis should be the cure (the nylon is really quite soft), but a thicker chassis may be necessary. I'm reluctant to use carbon fiber, but if I have to, I will.
6) The steering system is fragile. I somewhat expected that but I wasn't prepared for the tierod horn coming loose every few knocks to the rails. I was too lazy to machine the Delrin version I designed... that mistake has obviously caught up to me. I should also craft a servo saver to help the car out a little.


Edit: Looks like I need a new radio though. The KT-5 has a very noticeable lag once the speeds of the cars come up.

So, a bit of redesigning and working the mill again and I will be back at the track to sort this all out. Big thanks to Binh for helping me out and test driving for a couple laps. :)

Tjay
2008.01.22, 04:00 PM
saw you yesterday... too bad I was busy helping others with their cars.

I don't think you need a new radio or speed... Just drive. Then build a car...

color01
2008.01.22, 05:12 PM
That is true, it's just that by the end of my two hours I was really noticing the delay. I appreciate the practice though, I managed to knock the steering loose less often as the night wore on. Oh well, practice makes perfect. :rolleyes:

color01
2008.01.31, 11:48 PM
Been busy lately... sending these to my teammates as soon as I finish them. This version has 2x longer flex plates to make the chassis stiffer and the rear suspension more supple. 0, 2, and 4deg caster have also been implemented. :)

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1460/milling030sw6.jpg

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/2177/milling031cs8.jpg

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/294/milling032fs0.jpg

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8907/milling033ml1.jpg

minittrackmann
2008.02.02, 07:24 AM
Wow that finsih is amazing. You can really run a cnc machine:)

Cody

BmwM3_Evo
2008.02.02, 07:37 AM
Looks sweet man! I doubt itll be long before your taking peoples orders!

Nice one coloUr ;)

Chris

color01
2008.02.03, 02:27 PM
I hope so. :) Here are the green G10 parts (before finishing, for those of you who are about to complain about the white streaks). I really shouldn't leave so much fiberglass dust on my desk. :rolleyes:

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/3642/milling034jt5.jpg

sxysweed
2008.02.08, 11:08 AM
Looking good!

I've decided, I'm buying one. You better put me high on the list. :rolleyes:

EDIT:
Toolazy, will it work with aftermarket rear ends?

color01
2008.02.09, 12:54 AM
I'll make sure to put you at the top of the list, don't worry. Except that the list will be bottom to top. :p

The rear pod is much shorter and lower than aftermarket rear pods, so unfortunately the answer's no. I haven't tried to adapt a 94MM or 94RM rear pod yet, but I guess it could be done with a specially-made adapter plate.

color01
2008.02.13, 02:11 PM
Been wrenching on the cars again lately, here's one that's going out to a teammate and then one, comprised of messed-up parts, that's for me. :rolleyes:

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5048/mmproto037qs3.jpg

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8607/mmproto038ks7.jpg

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/182/mmproto040kl8.jpg

I'm still working on the front end bulkheads, they unfortunately take quite a while to machine. :o At least the rear pod parts are good. :)

Tjay
2008.02.13, 03:58 PM
looks good! It'd be awesome if you can have this thing running before the RCX.

color01
2008.02.13, 06:46 PM
Oh I'll have at least a couple running by then... :)

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5451/mmproto041ud1.jpg

I just don't know if they'll be dialed enough to make a good showing at RCX. If you're participating in the race at RCX I can lend mine to you to try out. :)

Tjay
2008.02.13, 06:55 PM
I am going there and racing 2 classes, 2wd and awd. If you give me time, at least a month before the race day. I can get it dialed and race it on the pan class... but like I said I'll need to set it up before then.

btw, we are having an endurance race here in San Jose at Saratoga Mall... maybe you want to enter there to race or have it there to show them this project but you'll have to ask Binh about that though.

color01
2008.02.13, 07:19 PM
I'm not going to have time to race for a while, which should explain why I'm looking into outsourcing any further testing, lol.

I'll see what I can do for you regarding a month's advance; for my parents' peace of mind we'll have to arrange a collateral. I think we can work something out in time. :)

---------------------------------------

Just for fun (the mill is running right now) I took a side-by-side pic of these two chassis; this makes the MR02 look tall. :D

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/3583/mmproto042jz2.jpg

EMU
2008.02.13, 10:42 PM
Looking real good there Color0. I would love to see a similar motormount available for the Mini-Z ;) I dont think it would be very difficult to make the conversion... Would just have to change the damper mount a little, and drill holes for the t-plate.

The MR02 looks huge in comarison.

color01
2008.02.14, 03:10 AM
I could probably pull something off for the regular Mini-Z, but that'll have to wait till I'm settled with this project. :)

I'm done for tonight, I had a little trouble getting the edge quality correct on the front end parts but I'll be sure to have some good, production-quality stuff to show soon.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/9289/mmproto044bx9.jpg

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/8958/mmproto045un5.jpg

The rear pod should be low enough to avoid any clearance issues with low-slung bodies. With my McLaren F1, the wheels touch the body before the damper touches the inner window glass. :)

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6591/mmproto046rw6.jpg

Cherub1m
2008.02.14, 09:59 AM
Hi color01

Great design!!!


What I realy like about your design:

1) The front end is very similar to current miniz's and will take regular kunkles.
2) You made a MM version, that looks highly adjustable and the motor mount looks great.
3) You did not keep this chassis for just lexan bodies but it looks like one should be able to run the autoscale bodies also.
4) You tooks a complex thing and made it simple and practical.

Cant wait for the final product. I have a TGR spinner esc and a Spectrum micro reciever waiting to be used :)

Keep up the great work
Cherub1m

wight
2008.02.14, 10:31 AM
I think it's an outstanding piece of model engineering.
I know reading this thread the amount of time and resourses you have put into this have been well worth the effort.
You must be extremely proud of it.Really looks amazing.

color01
2008.02.15, 04:24 AM
Thanks for the compliments, guys, though my main goal right now is to get it to drive as well as it looks. :rolleyes: The following example is a test-test car before I finish up this and the next batch of test cars, lol...

It's even lower than before. :) You might also be able to spot the 4 degrees of front caster (I cut 0, 2, and 4deg caster arms for the kits). Note to the super-observant: I haven't put the Delrin tierod horn on this chassis yet, but it will be done.
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/6209/mmproto049ko2.jpg

Left side of the motor mount. Easy motor access, you can solder wires on/off the motor without removing any parts. I finally got the 1/12 style side springs done. (Unfortunately I haven't been able to work this feature into the 94mm wheelbase, but at least it's here in 98mm.)
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/4354/mmproto050co3.jpg

The oil damper *barely* clears the motor. I was also worried that my Delrin damper post wouldn't be strong enough, but it seems that I've underestimated the material. The whole assembly is very secure and smooth.
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/563/mmproto051at1.jpg

This highlights one of the issues with the new car. Better route those wires over the board, or under and around the latches.
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5894/mmproto052ce0.jpg

The pod has been lowered 1.5mm but ground clearance raised .5mm, so you can run slightly smaller tires without hitting the ground. :)
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5774/mmproto053lg5.jpg


And if you're wondering about the scotch tape and dust line on the tires... I'm taking advantage of my waxed floor to practice RWD drift. The car is surprisingly consistent and easy to drive; you wouldn't really be able to tell it's RWD unless I spin out (and those are becoming rare). Yes, I know drifting and racing are two completely different disciplines but it does expose any setup imbalances and you can work on car control the fun way. :D

TJ- This one runs but I'm waiting on a new motor and new electronics -- possibly a new servo too -- so let me know if you're still interested when I get them installed. ;)

Tjay
2008.02.15, 06:37 PM
once everything is put together I'm pretty sure you already know that tuning is gonna take forever... anyhow, bring the car in. I'll drive it and let you know how it is...

O yeah, give me a heads up before you stop by. I usually schedule the cars I drive ;)

thanks!
-TJ

Tjay
2008.02.18, 01:12 PM
Color01; on your project car, do you know if the rear wheel is closer to the battery just like the 94mm set-up? Reason being is that, my 94 right now is pretty damn fast on the in-field and I can not get any 02 98mm to do the same. I wonder if your car can get the same traction as the 94's...

"The car is surprisingly consistent and easy to drive" if so, I can't wait to drive ur car. Easy to drive like an awd?

Btw, I think you'll need to use "lock tight" on all those nuts and bolts. He will be your new friend :). You probably already know, this car would fall into open pan class. Meaning, it needs a hot motor, battery and can withstand crashes...

RacingSOUL
2008.02.18, 01:35 PM
Looks really great so far... What is the weight of the whole assembled chassis?

color01
2008.02.18, 01:49 PM
TJ, take a look at this pic again:

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/563/mmproto051at1.jpg

The batteries are placed way behind the body clips; the distance between the pack and the rear axle is roughly the same as a 94mm MM car. Of course, the front wheels are 4mm further forwards, so the weight bias should be further rearward than said 94MM car. Depending on how stiff you make the rear end (Binh's MR02 is still softer than this car in the roll resistance dept.) I think traction should be an even match. Won't know till we put this car on the RCP though, of course. We can always swap this car to the 94mm setting, I understand the short wheelbase should be an advantage in the infield.

I don't think it's quite as easy to drive as an AWD, but this is my foyer we're talking about (my sis did a faceplant on the marble). ;) Last time I went to ILR the old car was pretty decent except for some tweak, and this time the rear end is more than 2x softer, so I hope it will actually be as easy to drive as an AWD.

Right now, the battery pack is secure in a crash; the positioning brace keeps them from moving fowards. Ironically, I have a problem of the batteries adhering themselves to the motor if you push them back too far -- neodymium magnets and the lack of battery bars compounds the problem. Before I machine a new batch of battery positioning braces I'll try gluing some scrap plastic bits to the chassis to block said batteries from moving backwards.

I do need to pick up a bottle of Loctite green, thanks for reminding me. :) Aaron (Flashsp-2) is winding me a nice 32t motor, and I have an MR02-Nelly board combo also coming. That should be more than enough horsepower to tackle open pan class, and definitely more than I can drive at the moment. :o

RacingSOUL: Unfortunately my scale's batteries are dead, but the last time I weighed in the chassis (w/ batteries, w/o body) it was 137g. With the new bulkheads and the oil damper (not included in the kit, just to clarify) I'm guessing the weight is now about 145g. A similarly equipped MR02 would be about the same or a couple grams heavier, depending on the diff and other metal bits installed.

color01
2008.02.24, 08:48 PM
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/5787/mmproto057sr3.jpg

These are going out to Cowboy and pfcparts... I didn't have the time to do all the meticulous hand-finishing but it's still decent and shouldn't take too much more time to get them looking showroom.

Speaking of time: The problem I'm running into now is tennis season. I can't get more than an hour of mill time per night At The Maximum, which puts a huge damper on how much I can do. It will take me at least a week to make each car:

Monday- Rear pod bulkheads
Tuesday- Motor clips
Wednesday & Thursday- Front end bulkheads & tierod horn
Friday- Ride height adjusters & damper post
Weekend- G10 parts and assembly.

So I'll be trying even harder to find an overseas manufacturer such that I can actually do some volume sales in the future. Wish me luck!

color01
2008.03.29, 02:11 PM
A long-deserved update.

All our testing has indicated to me that chassis with rear suspension like the MRCG/Sinister/etc. need a lot of rear droop to function properly, but all iterations of this design so far (except the Mini-Z F1) have to raise the roll center excessively to get enough droop.

I decided to take a hint from the F1 and simply cut out the chassis to allow the flex plates to move freely up and down. Sorry for the picture quality, it's late at night and my camera's bordering on 6 years old. :o

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2889/mmproto074dg6.jpg

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1337/mmproto075xo9.jpg

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/7359/mmproto076xq4.jpg

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/8405/mmproto077fy4.jpg

I know the pics are messy and poor in general, so a render should clarify what exactly has changed:

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9032/rd0215oco9.jpg

In addition to the flex plates now being completely free to move, they also sit right on top of the chassis for a lower roll center and slightly improved traction. The battery pack has been turned around; while I didn't like this at first (can't adjust weight distribution anymore), it does prevent the motor magnets from attracting to the batts and messing up the rear suspension action. It also left some space for me to move the standoffs inboard to mount the disk damper post and body mounts more securely.

I actually have a new 2.4GHz conversion board on hand to install into the car but I just really wanted to drive this thing. :o That said, I think it definitely drives better than the last car. I didn't do any rigorous scientific testing, nor has the RCP track arrived yet for that purpose, but the new car drives better on the prepared concrete track. It has much more steering yet handles off-throttle cornering much more tamely. I'll conduct a scientific test with the McLaren shell and GRP tires again to see how much improvement actually came about, but right now it's time to solder in the 2.4GHz board. :)

PS. If you notice this chassis bearing some similarities to a 1/12 link car, you might be interested to know that there actually is enough space now to turn it into one. I can't say I'm not tempted to experiment with this a bit. :)

color01
2008.04.06, 12:04 AM
Went to Inside Line Racing for testing today.

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/9480/mmproto086ls0.jpg

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/923/mmproto087io0.jpg

I had some trouble with the 2.4GHz ASF system not going into reverse very easily, but besides that, this chassis seems pretty quick. I'm still adjusting to larger-sized tracks so I stuck with a very understeer-biased setup that made the car pretty easy to throw around the corners -- not that I intended to, but with the amount of torque Flash's motor can put out, I pretty glad I made that decision. Anyways, the setup.

Front:
PN 8deg slicks (+3 offset narrow rims)
Atomic RCP yellow springs (note: the car understeered a heck of a lot, I will be switching out to something significantly softer.)
0 toe
1.5deg camber
4deg caster
lowered 1.5mm

Rear:
PN 6deg slicks (+3 offset wide rims)
Kyosho oil damper with RM spring, 3mm preload
Disk damper: soft top spring, medium bottom spring, thin coat of 200wt oil
Kyosho ball diff

Motor:
Top Secret 32t armature in Atomic M1 can
10/53 gearing

There are some pluses and minuses. The PN tires are nice and tacky at first but slowly lose their stick relative to the Kyosho 20's I tried out last time. So the car's overall grip suffered a little bit. Transitions are fast though, I noticed the MRCG could really swing through the chicane at Inside Line's new layout, and I could put down the hammer pretty easily afterwards. Judging by the fact that the motor wasn't even warm, though, I should probably have geared up to an 11t pinion. The speed at 10t was right but I had a little too much torque to play with in the infield, which is a mixed blessing.

By the end of the day I found myself very ready to go to softer front springs as on-power steering was suffering a little bit. Off-power steering I could get by sharply lifting off the throttle and throwing the car into a drift, and while that was very fun I'll be sure to setup the car correctly for the next testing session. :)

Thus, softer front springs are in order, and probably softer disk damper too to make the rear end a little bit more responsive. I could probably afford to stiffen the rear a little more as well, this car can afford the traction. I also wouldn't mind recommendations for smoother front knuckles; the Atomic delrin knuckles feel gritty even on brand-new Kyosho kingpins.

A word on the 2.4GHz system... I didn't have any shutdown issues like TJ had, but I had some problem areas on the track where the steering would be very imprecise, sometimes sending me into the wall. Same goes for the throttle but this wasn't as noticeable. And no matter what I did with the trims, I had to pause a full second to get the car to reverse. That's pretty bad, I'd have to somehow not make any mistakes if I want to use the ASF board successfully in a race (and that's not going to happen anytime soon, lol...).

Also, reinforcing the front of the VDSII body with a tubeful of plastic cement really helps keep it from cracking. Before I glued the front end I saw stress marks in the front clip area just from knocking the walls a few times. Today I went into the walls at nearly full speed (refer to my comment on 2.4GHz steering) and the body remained undamaged.



Anyways, I think I kept up with most of the other MR02's on the track. This new chassis is a significant improvement since the original concept, and I'm thankful for that... can't ask for much more when trying so many new things (chassis, electronics, body, wheels/tires) at once.

EMU
2008.04.06, 01:36 AM
Sounds good Color. The 6d PN tires make my cars push as well :P

I would try using harder rears, maybe the 8d radials might give you a little more steering without sacrificing much rear grip.

I know that since I have switched to the PN 6d rears in my stock car, that I have really been able to push my car MUCH harder. I used to have to baby it in the infield, but I can really get the power down hard out of a corner, and trail brake a bit into the next corner. Something I was unable to do with the Kyosho 20d in the rear. I think I could run a little softer front tires, will give it a shot next week.

I would definitely like to test out one of the MRCGs. How long is the waiting list now?

Do you have any plans to make a shock towers and tie rod that are 5mm wider, to use 0mm front wheels with the Pan or Porsche body? This would be good, to use 0mm front wheels (I chose 5mm instead of 6mm since I like to have my front wheels tucked in a bit). I would think that most people using an aftermarket chassis would be running Pan car bodies anyway.

color01
2008.04.06, 02:24 AM
I dunno EMU, I thought the Kyosho 20's I tried last time were a little bit stickier. My memory's not perfect though, so benefit of the doubt, can't wait till I try again. :)

The waiting list is about 6 or 7 long for now since we're still in development, PM me on the GSR forums (haven't visited for a while, have we? lol...) if you're interested. I'm warning you, this will take me some time.

As for the front end... I was thinking about it today too, those +3 offset front wheels do sacrifice a good bit of steering. A new tierod is a cinch, so right now I'm planning on a new base chassis specifically for Pan Car/LM bodies, +5mm front offset like you said. This is probably a better choice than machining new arms since the base MRCG as it is right now only accepts 98mm and 94mm bodies, not 102mm. What do you think?

eztuner12
2008.04.23, 11:32 AM
Hello color01,
This thread is great, did not know of its existence. Thanks to hrdrvr, responsible for sending me here.
Hope to see & read more info throughout the development of this very nice chassis.:)
Cheers

color01
2008.04.24, 02:35 AM
Right now it's all about optimization... the last outstanding problem we're having at the moment is flex plate deflection, so I'm thinking we can counter it by beefing up the flex plates but mounting them differently as to avoid increasing roll resistance. On top of that I've added an adjustable center spring in the space between motor and battery pack.

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9362/rd0216fia0.jpg

The new "look":

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/259/rd0216gjw8.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1240/rd0216hna9.jpg

The geometry of the chassis braces has been changed a bit to stiffen the most critical areas more. I also successfully integrated all three body mount styles (94MM, 98MM, Lexan) into one upper deck, and increased the size of the disk damper to use standard damper disks if desired.

eztuner- you had asked me about a ball-link/center-point style steering setup; while I can't provide that for you personally, one servo saver, two balls, two rod ends, two metal rods, a couple screws, and shoe goo for the servo should be everything you need. :)


At this point in time I definitely don't want to instill any false hope for anyone, so let's just say the car will be ready as soon as I'm all set up to go, in "summer '08". I will keep everyone posted, of course, especially if I manage to find help in machining parts. I do want to see a few of these compete in the PN series this coming summer, so I'd better get crackin'. :)

Cherub1m
2008.04.24, 07:43 AM
Hi color01

I am really liking the new design. I cant wait to see the final product.

Keep up the excellent work

eztuner12
2008.04.24, 09:43 AM
Hi color01
First, thx for providing the optional linkage steering system, I certainly do not misestimate the actual system you design, which I will give a tray at first.
One question, regarding the flexing your confronting. Is this flex deflection occurring from the front -to- rear of the lower chassis plate? If so, did this deflection occurred when the batteries where on the up-front position as your previous design?
Cheers

color01
2008.04.24, 09:12 PM
The deflection is side-to-side, and caused by the "beams" of the flex plate bending in the wrong direction. The chassis flex itself is completely cured thanks to the chassis braces. :)

Back to the flex plates: from all the proto parts I've made it now seems obvious that any long, thin flex plate will suffer from deflection to a certain degree, the previous cars getting it the worst because the flex plates were both very long and made of softer G10 (rather than CF). The new flex plates will have a negligible amount of sideways deflection when running, much like the Kyosho carbon plates for the Mini-Z F1.

Thanks for the comments guys!

Tjay
2008.04.25, 12:59 AM
Hey Color01, I was just wondering. Did any of the guys from RCX run your car? I want to know how it did. I know few guys were running different chassis not just MR02...

color01
2008.04.25, 02:53 AM
Nope, unfortunately I missed that opportunity thanks to hardware gremlins (i.e. what I'm trying to fix in these last few posts). :( In the short term I'm looking at having cars ready for the TGR Hurda Challenge in the DC area, the NYC championship, and the PN Regionals (whenever those dates are finalized). I'll of course bring me and my car to Inside Line every so often starting the summer, so I'll try to find you sometime and see what you think about its performance. :)

Tjay
2008.04.25, 11:01 AM
I can definitely drive your car with the kt-18 tx, now that I've been practicing with it :). Definitely looking forward on running/testing your car... ;)

eztuner12
2008.04.25, 12:28 PM
Hello color01
Yes, any long, thin flex plate will suffer from deflection to a certain degree, even with CF, if it is to long without a support point, or compensate by providing a thicker plate. Adding a thicker plate will indeed add weight to the chassis; to avoid this extra weight, you can drill holes to the brace plate to reduce its weight wile maintaining its strength. Another option can be a double deck flex-brace, one plate on top of the other with a couple of mm of space between them, attach with aluminum posts or screws, at each extremes of the plates and on the center of the plates or at its weak points, where some flex my occurs, Also to reduce weight, holes must be drilled. Something like a bridge beam.
This is only a thought, hope it assist.
Cheers

color01
2008.04.25, 01:02 PM
TJ- thanks!

Richard- So you're suggesting that I use two flex plates on each side? I'm not sure I understand what you have in mind. :o If it's anything like I'm imagining right now, the roll resistance will be off the charts. :eek:

eztuner12
2008.04.25, 04:10 PM
color01
Yes, thatís what I meant, but did not considerate that it would affect the chassis roll that bad, only that it would stiffen the chassis, and yes achieving a less chassis roll doe to the chassis twisting effects when under pressure. Sorry didnít help:o. I am very enthusiastic about your chassis:).
Cheers

color01
2008.04.26, 02:24 PM
Richard- if this were a t-plate car I would welcome more roll resistance, but since it uses side plates then unfortunately I'm stuck with a compromise. I do like your idea of cutting holes in the flex plates to tune the way they flex though. Maybe like this?

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/4466/rd0216itm5.jpg

The slot would help the flex plate twist a little bit in the roll direction but would keep the bump-direction bending to the long beam to maintain consistency.

BLT- Hardware gremlins as in the current flex plates not functioning perfectly. Not to worry, this'll be taken care of soon. :)

eztuner12
2008.04.26, 07:46 PM
Brian.
This is an excellent blueprint angle pic to view the complete rear end suspension geometry design.
Yes, the holes are great:), considering it wont make the flex plate fragile.
Have you considerate, adding springs to the side plates, where you have the screw & nut that attaches this side plates to the rear flex plate? And some how connect it to the upper rear plate, where it seems you will place the rear body post, some thing like the spring you placed under the friction disc.
Cheers

color01
2008.04.26, 08:39 PM
Have you considerate, adding springs to the side plates, where you have the screw & nut that attaches this side plates to the rear flex plate?
Yes, that's more or less how the last few cars had their side springs setup. I didn't really like it since you couldn't change bump resistance without affecting roll resistance. So now the plan is to have the center spring handling bump resistance and different flex plates to control roll. :)


Edit: In light of PN's FM V3 motor mount I devised a way to lower the motor in my chassis another 1mm. Now that we seem to be having a CG war, I might as well do something about it. :D

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6844/rd0216knk6.jpg

color01
2008.04.30, 02:32 AM
Hi everyone,

I need some opinions on a new front end design; having two standoffs and a top brace to replace the original upper arms seems to be the only way that I can fit PN MR02 anti-roll bars to this chassis. I think they will be a useful tuning tool in concert with the MRCG's stiffer-than-average rear roll resistance, plus this design should be faster and easier to machine than the current upper arms. I just wonder if it will clear some of the more low-slung MR02 bodies.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/1396/rd0216mzd8.jpg

(The PN anti-roll bar kit is modeled directly from the blueprints in their instruction manual, so it should be at least 95% accurate. Moving the standoffs back was the only way I could get the entire bar to fit in there.)

Any comments appreciated, thanks!

eztuner12
2008.04.30, 08:20 AM
EXCELLENT idea man, groovy!!!:D
Definitely this is an ingenious idea, it will positively improve the overall chassis performance, and I think this is the solution to your roll resistant issue.
Brian, my only concern would be, that the s-bar is to expose, in the case of a front-end accident.
Maybe a premature thought, but up-to now your design “TO ME” is the most sophisticated and well thought but simple, It really seems it will pass with an A, at the time you test it, not considering a future issue with the tires selection, hope not.
Cheers

ivanmartin18
2008.04.30, 10:22 AM
Nice! I like much more this front end to the "old" one.
I'm just worried about one thing: the clearance between the knucle "arm" and the post that holds the upper bar. I immagine that you have already checked this measurement in order to ahve a good turning angle.

In red in the picture I borrowed from you :D :
http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/3447/rd0216mzd8copysz6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Regards!

eztuner12
2008.04.30, 10:42 AM
Color01
Is that a wheel quick-release system I see on the front wheel on your right side of the screen (chassis left front rim) or just the way the tip of the front axle looks?
Cheers

color01
2008.04.30, 08:41 PM
Richard- Unfortunately I didn't design the sway bar system so it's going to be rather exposed. Cutting a new front bumper would be an easy fix, and you can use those same holes.

And that is NOT a quick-release system on the wheels, lol, that seems to me just a little bit overkill. :p Not saying it couldn't happen but I would need some better machinery and a lot more machining experience to do it.

Ivan- No need to worry, there is enough space for the front knuckles to turn 35 degrees (the full steering throw of the MR02).


One thing that I totally forgot last night is that this front end design (with FRP lower and upper arms) will make it easy for me to create wider-offset front ends. A +3-offset front end for the pan cars will be available if I stick to this front end design. :)

Falfa
2008.05.01, 07:21 AM
Nice new design. About that swingbar system from PN has anyone really tested it, does it make a huge difference?

stuZ
2008.05.03, 12:29 AM
I cant wait to build one!

color01
2008.05.04, 11:20 PM
Falfa- I think yasuji scored a track record using a car equipped with a prototype bar. I personally have not ordered one yet, since I have two weeks of exams in front of me and won't have time to test, race, or machine any new parts.

With that in mind, all I can really do at the moment is refine the design a bit more and add in features that may come in handy.

I'm pretty sure some of you guys are eager to use center-point steering like the Corally and InZane cars, so I've redesigned the lower arms a bit:

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8899/rd0216oeq1.jpg

The square hole makes it possible to clip off the back portion of it with side cutters. You'll end up with a shortened arm that allows the servo to be shifted over:

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/8452/rd0216pqr4.jpg



And for those sticking with the rail-and-tierod setup, I put slots in the tierod mount so you can shift it back and forth to adjust toe. I think it's a nice way to take advantage of the angled slots that are necessary for proper Ackerman. The range is from 0.5deg in and 0.5deg out, should be enough for the vast majority of pan cars out there. :)

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/7167/rd0216qww1.jpg

yasuji
2008.05.05, 02:08 AM
Nice new design. About that swingbar system from PN has anyone really tested it, does it make a huge difference?

all of the pan car guys @kenon are using the swing bar....it makes the fornt end more stable thru switch backs and chicanes....and also allows for a smoother line thru the high speed sweepers...i love it :D
btw color.....id love to test your chassis when it becomes avail;)

pfcparts
2008.05.05, 03:49 PM
Yaz,

I actually have a prototype. I wouldn't mind lending it out as I am too busy with other stuff to even touch my rcs right now.

I'll pm c0 about it as he probably could use feedback for it(sorry c0 lol), but I'm not entirely sure he wants me to lend it out lol.


cheers.

parts

eztuner12
2008.05.05, 05:19 PM
Hello color01
“Refine the design” that’s a key expression I like to hear from a chassis designer, no mater what scale.
Man this car is only getting better and better. Excellent you have the time to think and perform these improvements on the screen, but sorry Ur so busy and cant give it more time and specially test drive while each refinement is been developed.
Superb work!!!! :D
Cheers

color01
2008.05.05, 09:54 PM
Richard- thanks again for the praise. :) I'm doing my best to avoid affecting the fundamentals of the car too much, so hopefully I won't mess up anything that was good in the prototype currently sitting on my shelf. It does look cooler on paper though, so it must go faster. :rolleyes: lol...

Parts- go ahead and lend it out, it's slightly outdated from the last proto and the latest design, but the basics are the same so performance should be pretty much on par.

Grant- if you do take up the deal, let me know how it goes... you might need a stiffer top spring than most MR02's use, so I have an adapter for one already cut in case you need it. Thanks! :)

yasuji
2008.05.05, 11:29 PM
Yaz,

I actually have a prototype. I wouldn't mind lending it out as I am too busy with other stuff to even touch my rcs right now.

I'll pm c0 about it as he probably could use feedback for it(sorry c0 lol), but I'm not entirely sure he wants me to lend it out lol.


cheers.

parts

yeah id test it...put it thru the paces in so cal....let me know

pfcparts
2008.05.07, 12:14 AM
Yaz,

Send me a pm of your addy and it'll be off
to you when I ship marc's stuff out...


parts

yasuji
2008.05.07, 01:32 AM
Yaz,

Send me a pm of your addy and it'll be off
to you when I ship marc's stuff out...


parts

u got pm:D

color01
2008.05.08, 12:38 AM
Thanks in advance and hope you enjoy, Grant; I look forward to any opinions/feedback you have for the car. :)

So now that the design is pretty much ready, I'm looking for manufacturing options. Having a reputable company help out isn't a bad idea either, so I emailed 3racing this afternoon with an inquiry on machining graphite and aluminum parts for me (I'm still machining the thin G10 parts -- flex plates -- myself, in case I need to make any quick changes as a result of drivers' feedback). Got a reply just 20 minutes later! Excellent 1st impression of customer service.

Anyways, my question after that email is, who wants a CF-aluminum MRCG? If there's enough interest I will be more than happy to release this version rather than the G10-Delrin cars that I have been building so far. I've already tweaked the design sufficiently to account for the materials change. I need enough interest to fill at least 150 orders.

http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/8237/rd0216sgg1.jpg

http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/8101/rd0216saif1.jpg

Price will probably be around $110 in this guise, but I intend to include a complete disk damper system with the kit (OEM disks, post and springs from some company; I've emailed back 3racing about it) so the bang-for-buck is still very much intact. Like I said, I need 150+ orders to make this happen, so please let me know!

eztuner12
2008.05.08, 10:12 AM
Hi color01
Very good news, hope you achieve the required minimum amount of 150 orders, I really hope you get all the support you need from all of us hum demonstrated some interest on your chassis thru this forum.
Brian does the $110. Includes the CNC and CF full-rolling chassis, less electronics and motor right???
BTW when are you going to final test-drive the chassis??
A short video of the final joy-drive (test-drive) would definitely help some of us to make a final decision, at least in my case; I only need to se this beauty in action. I really like & believe in the design, and hope the finish product complies with superior quality.
I’ll be here for your reply
Thx,
Cheers
P.S. What type of steering system will be included with the chassis?
Is the front S-bars system included tooo?

arch2b
2008.05.08, 10:59 AM
when the shop comes back online, place a pre-order and when you hit the 150 number, the order gets released. maybe make the pre-order half price so only serious buyers will place the order and most likely to follow thru. best to make the pre-o price higher than lower just to weed out the rif-raf.

color01
2008.05.08, 04:02 PM
That's a good idea, arch. How does a pre-order listed for 100 kits at $70 each sound? We'll need at least 50 kits' worth of spare parts anyways.

Richard- The $110 tentatively only includes a bare chassis and disk damper assembly. You will need knuckles, kingpins, springs, limiters, c-clips, a differential, bearings, wheels and tires, and electronics to finish the kit.

The included steering system is the "steering rack" shown in the last renders. It's easier to package in the space constraints of the car. It doesn't have any bump steer either but this is a marginal advantage when the front suspensions of these cars barely compress at all. :rolleyes:

Anti-roll bars will not be included; they might not be for everyone so I'll leave them out to keep the pricing [relatively] down.

I'll get some video at Inside Line Racing near the end of May when I will finally have a solid block of time available to spend on the cars. :)

Thanks man!

jimbo
2008.05.08, 04:34 PM
as i said on inernal i am very interested in one, if it does not make your 150 minimum will you still sell them but made from G10?

color01
2008.05.08, 09:17 PM
Yes I will continue to make the G10-Delrin cars, but progress will be much slower. I would also prefer not to be machining parts all summer because that's simply not my profession.

eztuner12
2008.05.08, 10:46 PM
Groovy man.
Brian you can count me in, I got my mom’s (wife) ;)permission to buy one, let me know when you will be ready to sell, I am ready to place my order for the chassis with Aluminum and Carbon fiber when you say.
BTW. Can you provide us with the best start-up set-up for this chassis right after you closure with the final test-drive, so we know what; knuckles, kingpins, springs, limiters, c-clips, a differential, bearings, wheels off-set and tires compound we must buy, as well as electronics you recommend??
Man I really am hysterical :Dabout this chassis, I hope more guys will appreciate this chassis and accompanied us one step forward in this mini scale. All these new pan chassis are the door to an elite top-gun category. As I mentioned before hope that the Pro- 28AAA, as well as, the MP V4 move-on fast with their projects to enrich more this elite category. There is a Chinese saying that go; a shrimp that goes to sleep can end-up in a ****tail. Hope this is not the case and they will come thru.
Color01, I am looking forward for the promised video.
Cheers
PS. About the s-bar, will you provide the parts to be able to install it in your chassis?? I am definitely going for the s-bars

color01
2008.05.09, 05:30 PM
Richard, thanks for your continued enthusiasm. :) I need to make one more CF car to take product photos of, and to shoot that video I promised you; then I'll make the official announcement and ask Mini-Z (David) to set up a preorder on the Shop interface here. That's when you can put down your order. ;)

I will definitely let you know about the baseline setup we arrive at, and by that time I will post up a PDF setup sheet (I'll try my best to make it editable) and other documentation as well.

So in the meantime I'll be playing an emailing (machinists, manufacturers, etc.) and waiting (AP exams, lol...) game. :D

jonnywachter
2008.05.10, 02:13 AM
i want one of these chassis also i was thinking of getting a sinister but i like the layout of this chassis better especially if there is a good introductory price

color01
2008.05.11, 03:22 PM
I may be able to make separate G10 and CF versions depending on how things work out; I emailed Penguin RC after learning that there's no minimal order quantity (:o) and it just so happens they can do custom G10 and CF bits.

Emailed Exotek Racing as well, who offered to contact his CNC contractor for me and discuss my design; this company evidently specializes in 1-150pc small runs so it would give me a lot more flexibility.

I'm praying that this will work out because if it does, it's nearly perfect. Exotek and Penguin products are among the best in their markets, and if I can get those same manufacturers involved to make MRCG parts, guess what... ;)

eztuner12
2008.05.11, 06:11 PM
Yeah man!!!! excellent news:D. If there is no minimum order required, and you arrive to a positive agreement with these manufacturers, we hum are interested in buying the kit, would we be able to place our pre-order right away??
Brian, any idea yet of the delivery time after the pre-order has been placed??
Cheers

color01
2008.05.11, 06:47 PM
I don't know exactly the turnaround time for the manufacturers yet, but I'll keep you guys posted on anything I learn. If things do work out with both Penguin and Exotek's contractor then I'll order ~75 sets and have a pre-order set up right away, at this shop and/or my own website.

I will probably be paying extra for the "rush delivery" option from all the manufacturers to minimize the wait time. I'm as eager as you are to see these chassis finally produced. :)

eztuner12
2008.05.12, 11:14 AM
Perfect!! Please keep us up dated, as it is your custom.:)
BTW Brian, I have around here in some place, a new Ko Propo High Grade AD Set for EX-10 Helios for a MR-02, I purchased to transplant it to my MA-010 AWD, but never knew if it would deliver more power than my actual AM board with 2x3 8962 FETs. Maybe you have the answer??
My Q is; would this FM AD band (Blue color board) be a good option for the MRCG??
I am planning to use my mod-motors with Orion h/p 900 AAA batty and a 6g Micro servo, same servos I use on my R/C helis.

Off-topic; collor01, have you thought of designing an AWD CF chassis??
I think it would be nice to design an AWD CF chassis based on the Kyosho mini-z MA-010 AWD platform but focused on balance (weight distribution) and lower CG. I believe that a double deck CF chassis with the motor, AWD Drive-shaft or belt-drive, and electronics including steering servo;(hobby micro servo) on the lower deck and on the top deck the 4 AAA. This would be much better than the actual configuration of Mini-z MA-010. I figured the batteries on top for accessibility at the time of removing and placing back after charging, unless there is a way to place the 4 AAA(lined one batty beside the other as on you chassis on the lower deck. I said utilizing the MA-010 chassis platform so that all the Mini-z AWD aftermarket front-end & rear-end up-grades can be fitted.
Cheers

color01
2008.05.13, 11:20 AM
I asked for a 2-week turnaround, but I need to wait for an answer before saying anything with *any* degree of certainty. :o

The AD Band board should work fine, pretty much like the ASF system I'm using now, just ~13mm longer. It will still fit right between the quick-release latches though, not to worry. If you can avoid the static shut-off problem I have heard of you'll like it in the MRCG. ;)


Off-topic: Yes I have, and I've gone through a couple iterations of AWD designs before. I'm still working on the base concept so I haven't actually rendered it in 3D yet but once the MRCG is in production (actual production, not me-working-at-home production) then I will have some time to flesh out the AWD design.




Edit: Exotek has emailed his CNC contractor my parts to quote, and I have emailed Penguin RC with the other parts I need quoted. Fingers crossed. :)

Edit #2: Penguin doesn't do green G10 so we'll be having black G10 parts instead. Possible new look:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/5686/rd0217bjf6.jpg

F_Zero
2008.05.15, 03:01 PM
Great looking chassis color01. Wish I could buy one. I didn't read through all of the posts either, but what program are you using to make drawings? I think I could use it for my F-Zero Prototype. :)

I have had some stuff done by Byran over all Penguin R/C. He charged me about $125 I think per chassis. That is just one chassis plate, I had some Micro RS4 stuff designed.

Mike from EXOTEK, I know him... I am the only person to own the Prototype 140mm chassis from the M18 in normal carbon grahite that his company made. All the others are SSG carbon. I ended up selling the whole car I built for $200 to a asian kid down the street, but I was happy with it. I just didn't like the M18 as much. Great car though, I will post a picture if I can find some, my HD was deleted, but I am sure there are some on the net somewhere.

bmxtrev
2008.05.15, 04:13 PM
dang color, that chassis is SWEET.

hope everything works out for you! :)

eztuner12
2008.05.18, 12:57 PM
[QUOTE=color01;302947]
The AD Band board should work fine, pretty much like the ASF system I'm using now, just ~13mm longer. It will still fit right between the quick-release latches though, not to worry. If you can avoid the static shut-off problem I have heard of you'll like it in the MRCG. ;)QUOTE]
Hi Brian
You where the third person that mentioned to me the static cutting-off issue on the ADband:eek:, so as soon I read you note I put the Adband for auction on eBay, which yesterday was sold. I even made an unexpected good profit of it, cant believe people donít do their home work before making a bid, to be sure the donít pay more than on an e-hobby or local shop.
Brian, can you advice me if an MR-02 or MA-010 electronic AM r/c unit board with 2X3 Stacked FETs be a good match for your chassis??
Thx

color01
2008.05.22, 10:18 PM
Richard, a 2x2 stack of 4562 FETs will handle enough current for any racing-appropriate motor (insane winds like a 27t Plasma Dash are definitely too much). But anyways, any electronics that fit into a Mini-Z will work fine with the MRCG. Perhaps the ASF board with the new EX-1 ASF Module would be your best bet if you have the cash, the ASF board has excellent reception and handles power well, and the new module shouldn't have any signal problems that the KT-18 has (evidently due to the KT-18's low operating voltage).

I'm pleased to announce that I got the quote back from Penguin RC and it's looking VERY good. The CF prototype will be coming very soon. :)

FZero, program is Rhinoceros 3.0. Old, not very powerful, but intuitive and easy to learn. Exotek is great too, I totally wouldn't believe that he'd help out a newbie like me get started on this. :)

eztuner12
2008.05.23, 07:25 AM
Richard, a 2x2 stack of 4562 FETs will handle enough current for any racing-appropriate motor (insane winds like a 27t Plasma Dash are definitely too much). But anyways, any electronics that fit into a Mini-Z will work fine with the MRCG. Perhaps the ASF board with the new EX-1 ASF Module would be your best bet if you have the cash, the ASF board has excellent reception and handles power well, and the new module shouldn't have any signal problems that the KT-18 has (evidently due to the KT-18's low operating voltage).

I'm pleased to announce that I got the quote back from Penguin RC and it's looking VERY good. The CF prototype will be coming very soon. :)

FZero, program is Rhinoceros 3.0. Old, not very powerful, but intuitive and easy to learn. Exotek is great too, I totally wouldn't believe that he'd help out a newbie like me get started on this. :)
Excellent news… Hey thx for the info Color01.
Brian, this would be my first 2wd chassis in this scale, it is not my custom to race 2wd chassis only on my FG evo 4 1/5 and that’s because FG don’t produce 4wd on road. 2WD are to slow and susceptible to heavy fingers like mine, I really pull the trigger hard. So I will need all the help you can provide me, to set up this chassis to perfection or as close it can be to perfection.
Going back to the e-board, I am concern that I will blow the FET’S that’s why I use 2x3 on my two mini-z awd, I use only 37T PN armature with neo-mag and 35T hand wound, silver com and neo-mag, this 35T are my favorite, I do really feel very comfortable with its power and speed. So my Q is; would a 2wd with 2x2 support a 37T and 35T, or these are too powerful motors to be used on a 2wd??
Thx again 4 all Ur help.
Cheers

EMU
2008.05.23, 01:03 PM
You should be find with the 35t with a 2x2. It should also work find on the ASF or Ad boards, with use a 2x2 3010 fets.

2wd cars have much less drivetrain resistance compared to the AWD. I ran a 37t armature in a BB can with ferrite magnets in an AWD with a single layer of 4562. The motor would overheat a little due to the gearing that I had it at... but no damage to the fets.

color01
2008.05.25, 01:54 AM
Received the quote from Exotek, it's expensive but I will work to keep this project viable. It looks like I'll have to shift from custom diff height adjusters to Atomic pieces. Mixed blessing, there's less adjustment but slightly easier to get the pieces.

I'll have a demo car to show everyone before you know it. ;)

eztuner12
2008.05.28, 03:52 PM
color01, CAN'T WAIT MAN:eek:
Cheers

F_Zero
2008.05.30, 12:13 PM
Sounds great color! Can't wait to see a new prototype. ;)

color01
2008.05.30, 05:16 PM
Thanks guys! Penguin has told me that he'll have the parts done and/or shipped by next Friday, so I'd best get my butt moving on some Delrin prototype parts before the aluminum parts actually arrive. :) Once I put this car together I'll drop by ILR and get that video I promised Richard -- with a bit of luck, perhaps with TJay at the wheel. ;)

color01
2008.06.10, 01:09 AM
Penguin RC parts are here! Happy happy:

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/3003/mmproto106fo0.jpg

All-new materials for me, actually. The CF is nice and stiff, and should make the car a little more responsive to tuning, while the new white G10 material (it's truly white, there's no more green tint) is almost half the thickness of my original stuff, meaning the rear suspension just got 2x softer. :eek: I still have to machine a couple more parts and wait for Exotek's motor mount to arrive before I can bring this car to the track, though, so bear with me. ;)

ivanmartin18
2008.06.10, 02:13 AM
Very very nice quality, congratulations!
Is Exotek doing for you the aluminium parts?

Bye

eztuner12
2008.06.10, 05:58 PM
Hey Brian this is really LOOKING GOOD man:D
Is the screws/nuts aluminum?
I see you are going to include the autoscale side body clips! Great! This option will certainly make the chassis more attractive to autoscale fans.
Maybe for those that will prefer a stiffer rear end suspension, can use double side plates on each side to accomplish it, since they are Ĺ thick than it was conceived by you. Do you think this will be possible?
Coolor01 during the test drive, are you planning to tryout the chassis with and without a front S-bar system?? Hope you do! So we can know in advance how it performs with both options.
Cheers:)

shimey
2008.06.10, 09:00 PM
Gorgeous! Stoked to see it taking shape.

When you gonna start a group buy list?? ;)

Good luck man, keep up the momentum and keep us posted!

color01
2008.06.10, 11:51 PM
Thanks for the comments, guys! I'm going to contact David (mini-z) about opening up a pre-order page as soon as I have this CF car built up and many photos taken of it.

The current hardware is just plain stainless steel, but I am working to get some high-end black oxide, hex head hardware that should last pretty much forever. :)

Flex plates, to be honest I'm not sure what I want to do with them yet. The roll resistance is just about right -- on par with a medium-soft MR02 t-plate -- so I don't want to mess with it too much, especially since the bump stiffness can be taken care of using a combination of center spring and top shock. Testing will call the final decision; I'll probably tweak the flex plate design a tiny bit to bring it up to a middle-of-the-range stiffness.

Making a thicker flex plate is easy -- I have plenty of 0.8mm G10 on hand, versus the 0.5mm G10 you see in the last picture. I can keep up with the quality too so if a couple people want a stiffer flex plate, that's no problem. That majority will probably be satisfied with how it is now.

I'll do testing without the sway bar first. The G10 cars I've been testing for the last few months corner much, much flatter than the MR02, even with soft springs, so I'm beginning to question whether the bar is needed for a good setup with this car. (Probably more worthwhile to put it on my MR02.) I'll let you know though, perhaps a combination of very soft front springs, and the soft sway bar, will be just right for this chassis.


And yes, Exotek's handling the aluminum parts for me. :)



Edit: Here's how the demo car is shaping up so far. Unfortunately most of the aluminum parts are not going to arrive in time so I'll be doing the standoffs and bulkheads in Delrin, with a prototype aluminum motor mount which should be here next week.

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/7902/mmproto108cq1.jpg

eztuner12
2008.06.11, 11:07 AM
Color01
Thx for the response.
Yes unquestionably I agree, a good quality hardware is a must:)
Brian, go to www.rcscrewz.com for excellent srews&nuts for a very good price. Hope it aids
Cheers!

color01
2008.06.12, 05:12 PM
Thanks Rich but they don't carry much M2x0.4p hardware at all, lol... I'll keep looking, I think Exotek has more resources than I do with regards to small fasteners but if he can't find it then I already have some (albeit not as cool as black oxide hex head. :rolleyes:).

If anyone has any source for small ball studs and ball ends though I'd appreciate it; while it's not an absolute requirement of mine I would like to make available and MRCG-specific top shock to complement the center spring already in the chassis.

eztuner12
2008.06.12, 10:03 PM
Brian, maybe this place can help, go to, www.microfasteners.com and for ball studs and ball ends go to, www.lunsfordracing.com they have screws too.
Cheers

color01
2008.06.12, 11:48 PM
Been there done that, Richard. ;) I've already checked almost all retail sites in America for screws, they don't have what I want. I'm going to have to go look at places a couple levels up (supplier level, or possibly even manufacturer level) for M2x16mm black oxide hex screws -- these are the absolute hardest ones to find, and it seems that Exotek has the connections necessary to find them for me, so I'm having him do that for me now. In the meantime I'll be searching for sites and companies on GlobalSpec and similar places.

color01
2008.06.16, 05:57 AM
Thought I'd update a bit on the progress... work has been slow since I'm studying for some exams right now, but arch2b's G10 car is practically finished and my carbon one is just waiting on the postal service.

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/617/mmproto109bv0.jpg

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/9673/mmproto110vk4.jpg

Arch's car is indeed an RM; this is just a one-off thing he requested, so please don't expect this as an option for the production carbon chassis. There will be plenty of traction available in the MM chassis already. ;)

eztuner12
2008.06.16, 11:12 AM
Hello Color01
Really looking good. One important Q.
Would the chassis be able to be set for 94 and 98 w-base?
Cheers

color01
2008.06.16, 03:21 PM
Absolutely! :) Notice the pairs of holes in the front end; arch's car is 94RM while mine is 98MM. ;)

eztuner12
2008.06.19, 11:16 AM
Greetings Brian,
Any news? :rolleyes:
did you ever received the cnc parts?
Thx,:)
Cheers.

color01
2008.06.20, 01:50 AM
:( Exotek's subcontractor made the wrong part so we have to go back to the subcontractor and wait another week or so. So in the meantime I will attempt to machine a Delrin version of the motor mount that will be strong enough to survive shakedown day and at least 1-2 races. The rest of the chassis is ready so I really don't want to wait anymore.

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/5554/mmproto111ns9.jpg

Ride height is a little high in the back due to lots of preload, but it's a soft spring so it'll sag right back down once we have our batteries and electronics installed.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2962/mmproto112rj8.jpg

The first and only anti-roll bar compatible pan car. :) I have yet to test out if this is necessary for performance, but I put it on just to check the fit (it fits).

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2860/mmproto113zc7.jpg

At first glance it's nothing special but this rear suspension combination has some very interesting properties that I believe will make a difference on the track. At the very least it opens up a new tuning option; at the most it could be revolutionary (but I won't know till I test it of course). :) I'll have more details about this when I post up an official announcement. Btw, the black locknuts are for mounting side springs. Neither those locknuts nor side springs are supplied in the kit but the space is left open for those who need more roll resistance.

minittrackmann
2008.06.20, 01:06 PM
After seeing this you can now put me on the list to buy one:)

Wow. That chassis looks amazing. So many features, and adjustments...

LMK, When I can buy one:)

Cody

eztuner12
2008.06.20, 03:49 PM
Color01, I only have to say:):):):D:D:D
If you save those; s-bar,the black locknuts etc, I will buy it from you, when ordering my chassis. I realy like to have all the options on hand when seting my cars, you know to do my own R&D
Cheers man;)

dhamby123
2008.06.22, 05:38 PM
sweet looking chassis any thoughts on what it might cost retail because im thinking about getting one man nice work!