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View Full Version : HFAY Season 4 CHANGE PROPOSAL MOTION! ALLOW ONCE AGAIN THE TWO DROP RACES RULE!!!


svt-racer
2007.08.26, 11:31 PM
I hereby would like to request a modification to this season's rule regarding race drops. At the present time, the current rules state no drops whatsoever for this season.

I propose we re-incorporate last years rule on this regard that allowed a person to have TWO dropped races in the season. This allowance would cover of course a day or two that you cannot make it to the races or simply a very bad race day where you wished you would have stayed home instead of racing like it happens to all of us every now and then. Simply allowing the two drops will benefit everybody accross the board, and not allowing any drops will benefit only a few.

With your voting, we can convince all the judges to revert this ruling back to what we had last season and keep the two drops. Believe me, you will all benefit from this one at any given point this season.

Let the voting begin!

One for me to change the ruling back to two drops for this season 4.
Next!!!

short
2007.08.27, 06:22 AM
i vote yes

gasman1
2007.08.27, 09:08 AM
Unless your a judge in the series, this thread is a moot point. Since this post is not in the Judges forum, I'll assume your not.

Talk to the HFAY judge of your club to lobby for your desire to drop races. That is how the process works.

YBSLOW
2007.08.27, 09:47 AM
Unless your a judge in the series, this thread is a moot point. Since this post is not in the Judges forum, I'll assume your not.

Talk to the HFAY judge of your club to lobby for your desire to drop races. That is how the process works.

They will probably change it for next season. It would be really uncool to change now since we have all ready run 6 of the 12 races.

Spoon
2007.08.27, 10:20 AM
As Gasman mentioned if you are in favor or opposed to the drops you should talk to your local judge. The judges talk ALOT behind the scenes here so your voice is definitely heard.

We went back and forth for a while on the Drops ruling and I think each judge tried their best to represent their racers but it's hard to please everyone. The "votes" on this thread won't mean much but I think it's still worthwhile to discuss your opinion here.

imxlr8ed
2007.08.27, 11:26 AM
Like I said previously... we are all free to lobby and discuss our sides of it as much as we want to, but the decision will come dowm to a Judge vote. The Judges should go with the majority of their club, (if they want to please their members anyways... yes, you're politicians as well now ;) ) and voice their club's opinion in the Judges forum. We can't have a vote between all the participants, your club's Judge is your representative... this will keep the voting fair.

briankstan
2007.08.27, 11:45 AM
the only proplem with posting a poll in the general forum is that people vote even though they are not even participating in the HFAY races.

however,

I will follow this thread and since there has been quite a bit of talk about the drops being added back in we as judges will be watching the discusstions.

Make sure that if you have interest either way you make your opionions known. that is the only way your club judge knows how your feel about the subject.

I will note that all discussions will be for a rule changed for Season 5, We can NOT change rules for the current season because we have already began the season.

rharris
2007.08.27, 05:08 PM
It's true, only Judges can vote. It's good to hear what drivers from other clubs think.

If drivers want there voice heard, this is a good place. If you feel strongly about this issue (one way or the other) it would be a good idea to have the club you are racing with in your signature or in your profile.

svt-racer
2007.08.27, 07:56 PM
I will note that all discussions will be for a rule changed for Season 5, We can NOT change rules for the current season because we have already began the season.


The original intent for the post is to change the current rules to allow the two drops. Just because the season started, it doesn't mean it it could not be valid. Really!


I would happilly encourage all the people that participate in the HFAY series to voice their opinions publicly and bring this up for review and ammendment this year.

I really cannot think what the heck the judges were thinking when they passed this rule change for this year.

This is the first series ever that I have participated that does not allow a race drop in their rules. Instead of promoting the series and the hobby with sensible rules that allow some flexibility from peoples' schedule point of view, we get completely the opposite. By making the series so strict, it seems to me that it is focusing to cater towards the die hard hobbyists out there that no matter whether it rains or shine, they will make all the races of the season. Requiring 100% committment to the complete schedule of the season is no way of helping to promote and grow the series.

If you guys wish to increase the enrollment on the series with more clubs and more people within the existing clubs, you must consider having flexible rules that allow participants to remain in the series even after missing one or a couple of races in the season. When I mean remain in the series....I mean, with a good chance of being in the top 10 or 20. I think most of you guys will get the point without me typing too much more.

imxlr8ed
2007.08.27, 08:52 PM
100% committment

Your words right here are what we were thinking about when we came to our first vote. To take away from someone who is driven to this level seems a shame to do.

I will remind all once again... the new pre-run regulation should only make it easier for all of a clubs racers to attend events. We ran our first 2 events right off the bat, coulda ran 3 if we weren't screwing around so much. The first month is the one that some missed and seem to be upset about... I know, I have a few in my club who missed out on the first 2 events altogether. That's on them... they knew what "no drops" meant when they voted for it.

And... once again I would like to remind all that this is still a growing series, and we are easily conformed to whatever makes it better for all, this is only one season out of many to come... if we need to swing it back to the drops for Season 5, no problem!

Be heard... let your club Judge know what you want, and make sure he/she gets your word out to us!

(oh yeah... got tired of chewing :rolleyes: )

wwwes
2007.08.28, 08:15 AM
I am a judge, and definately in favor of maintaining some consistancy with the drops. We are a small club and right now I am scrambling to find a car to run this months event. My ma-010 has a burned fet from running this years hfay motor.I love the competition and the fact that our small club from Texas, and Arkansas gets to see where we stack up against some of the best. But I think the drops are essential in this time of transition from the stock motor, to the spec motor.

svt-racer
2007.08.28, 08:41 PM
I am a judge, and definately in favor of maintaining some consistancy with the drops. We are a small club and right now I am scrambling to find a car to run this months event. My ma-010 has a burned fet from running this years hfay motor.I love the competition and the fact that our small club from Texas, and Arkansas gets to see where we stack up against some of the best. But I think the drops are essential in this time of transition from the stock motor, to the spec motor.


You make an iteresting point here where we are all running a brand new motor and some people are already having problems with it as described above. I wonder if situations like this one were considered at all when you guys proposed to eliminate the two drops. I willing to say that the people proposing it were thinking if you want to participate in the HFAY series, either you run all the events with 100% committment or you are simply out of luck of getting a chance to be in the top 10 or top 20 bracket. Sorry. Try again next year when maybe we change the rules back.

Sorry if I make some of you judges uncomfortable with this discussion thread, but I believe something has to be done about it. Help to grow and promote the hobby and the HFAY series with rules that make sense. I don't believe that we need to wait until next year for modifying this rule... It is not like saying...hey we are changing the motor to something like that, so I have to go out and buy something new or anything remotely like that.

Spoon
2007.08.28, 09:58 PM
Sorry if I make some of you judges uncomfortable with this discussion thread, but I believe something has to be done about it. Help to grow and promote the hobby and the HFAY series with rules that make sense. I don't believe that we need to wait until next year for modifying this rule... It is not like saying...hey we are changing the motor to something like that, so I have to go out and buy something new or anything remotely like that.

I think the discussion is well warranted and uncomfortable or not it's worth having, that's what the forums are for.

The judges discussed back and forth for several weeks about the drops. You would not believe how many factors went back and forth with this vote. In the end it was majority rule. All of the judges voted and we went with the majority. Not every one agreed to the drops (it was actually probably a 40/60 decision) but we went with the majority vote.

What you need to realize is that you need to pass your vote on to your personal judge so they can accurately represent you for the next season. This is a growing series and we are experimenting with things to make it better. The spec motor is one of them and the no drops rule is another.

****Talk to your judges, make your opinion known. Your judges represent your and can vote in your favor to effect change.****

wolfman
2007.09.07, 09:24 PM
I am new to miniz racing. I agree two drops would work best.

will3kgt
2007.09.10, 12:56 AM
I believe that we should have the two drops. I'm quite suprised that the judges voted on no drops and that most of the members would vote for no drops. Some racers (like myself) will benefit from no drops, but the OLPS point system will not. I want what's best for the series, not me.

YBSLOW
2007.09.18, 12:11 PM
I agree with going back to two drops for the next season, however you CANNOT change the rules in the middle of the season when results have all ready been posted with us knowing they were no drops. For example I left the track for 1 minute during race one but put my car back out to lose as few points as possible knowing I had no drops to fall back on.

Brad

arch2b
2007.09.18, 12:22 PM
there are isntances where mid season rule clarifications were made. it's not unprecendented. i think what most are trying to say is stick it out this season so we can difinitively say at the end it was not the best choice vs. 2nd guessing ourselves mid season.

i'm fairly confident drop(s) will be voted back in for season 5.

one way to examine the recourse to eliminating drop which no one has mentioned yet was the impact on participation. it is just coincidence that there are signifcantly fewer participants this season? food for thought....

mini-z
2007.09.19, 04:42 PM
I agree with going back to two drops for the next season, however you CANNOT change the rules in the middle of the season when results have all ready been posted with us knowing they were no drops. For example I left the track for 1 minute during race one but put my car back out to lose as few points as possible knowing I had no drops to fall back on.

Brad

B, in this case, that would end up being your drop in all likeliness, so, what would be the problem with that (just curious - we're actively discussing this topic in the Judge's forum and I'm just interested in getting as many different opinions/thoughts as possible)? :)

JOE KROSNER
2007.09.19, 09:36 PM
I think changing this primary rule would not be in the best intrest for all hfay members. Yes rules have been changed (modified slightly) in previous seasons but this change would go against what was voted. I would be in agreement to add them for next season but please do not change this in the middle of this season 4.

Joe Krosner

YBSLOW
2007.09.20, 11:34 AM
B, in this case, that would end up being your drop in all likeliness, so, what would be the problem with that (just curious - we're actively discussing this topic in the Judge's forum and I'm just interested in getting as many different opinions/thoughts as possible)? :)

It would be the same as Nascar changing the scoring system in the middle of the year. Now we are going to count the last 8 races of the year for the chase instead of 10 because Dale Jr had a bad race in the first part and needs two more chances to make the top 12 for example.

I have no problem changing rules in the middle of a season but not scoring outcomes.

The race I missed a minute and you say would mostly like be my drop is irrelevent to the discusion and I finished 3rd overall in that race.

onrailz
2007.09.20, 04:58 PM
I would like to see the drops back again. This is a six month, 12 race series! To say that something won't come up where you can't make a race all of a sudden is improbable. Also, I know these cars don't break much but it does happen. I've been broken by another racer a couple of times now in both racing and practice situations. As SVT says, this is the only r/c racing series we've ever been involved in that doesn't use drops.
The HFAY point series is key to growing our membership. We have attracted new faces to our club by telling them about this amazing form of racing and for the most part we have retained them. This season as usual, we had some new faces and at the beginning of the season the new people have a bit of a learning curve and it takes a couple of races to figure things out. Those races would have been throwout runs but now they count and those people feel like their chances at a high finish are over by their 2nd race and it will be 5 more months until they get a second chance.
What is the positive side of no drops? Who does it benefit? Who gets hurt by having drops? I must have missed that somewhere.

-ONRAILZ

onrailz
2007.09.20, 05:04 PM
The race I missed a minute and you say would mostly like be my drop is irrelevent to the discusion and I finished 3rd overall in that race.

How is a comment about about a race being a drop "irrelevant" to a discussion forum about drops? LOL

YBSLOW
2007.09.21, 09:54 AM
How is a comment about about a race being a drop "irrelevant" to a discussion forum about drops? LOL

The part about which race would be "my" drop is irrelevant not the fact wether their should be drops or not.

I know I sacrificed some personal business not to miss a scheduled race all ready this season and would have missed that days race if I had drops to use. I also agree we should have drops "NEXT SEASON". I just don't think you change things in the middle of a season thats all.

Onrailz I wish we raced in the same club together it would be a lot of fun competeing head to head as it seems we battle for the top spot quite often. I can't beleieve you run the AWD as miy AWD S U C K S.

Peace!!
Brad

Spoon
2007.09.21, 10:09 AM
This is a great discussion guys. I am glad to hear that people have an opinion about the issue. Make sure you share your opinions with your club judge so they can represent you next time the drops vote comes around.

onrailz
2007.09.21, 02:30 PM
Onrailz I wish we raced in the same club together it would be a lot of fun competeing head to head as it seems we battle for the top spot quite often. I can't beleieve you run the AWD as miy AWD S U C K S.

Peace!!
Brad

Yeah totally! It has been a lot of fun competing with you in the past season and this one! No matter how well I think I placed, I never really know til they post em because of you!

I really like the AWD for racing. The 010 chassis is really fast and well balanced with some key parts on it. I found that the car is easy to get "over stuck" which really slows it down and overheats the motor. There are steps you can take to free it up a bit and put it more on edge. Then it's dialed! I've been meaning to post some pics and setup info about it- I'll get on that! I'd like to see your ride as well! I actually just 3010 fett'd my MR-02 a couple weeks ago and I'm going to play around with setup on it tonight. If it's fast enough, I may just run it tonight in our HFAY race 5!

svt-racer
2007.09.21, 03:12 PM
This is a great discussion guys. I am glad to hear that people have an opinion about the issue. Make sure you share your opinions with your club judge so they can represent you next time the drops vote comes around.
I just wished this was the discussion we had prior to setting the rules. By we, I mean a bigger group of people and not just a forum for judges only. It seems like everybody...well... most people do agree with the concept that for next year we should bring back the two drops. But most of you are against it for this year because....Oh, you already decided to run it this way. I just do not see the upside of no drops other than a dedicated racer that wishes to race more so than attending a family activity/event getting so that they can get points at every single event and therefore place high in the order for points.

12 races, 6 months of racing and you cannot even have a single drop. Who does the HFAY group catters to then? Promoting the hobby to make its attendance grow must not be one of the objectives then. Do you guys have any idea how many people get turned off by the concept of no drop races in a series. Just talk to you friends that compete in other series albeit 1/10 scale on or off-road series and you will see.
I have yet to see what the downside is of having a two drop points race in a series of 12? Anyone? Please???

arch2b
2007.09.21, 03:18 PM
i think the current driver numbers support your opinion.

bemoore
2007.09.21, 04:41 PM
I think two drops is wrong. It should be WAY more than that. I used to race in a local slot car club who, over the span of a few years, ran a no-drop season, a 2 drop season, and a season where 50% of the races could be dropped. Guess which season had the most participation and the most competition at the end of the season. The zero and 2 drop seasons all came down to one or two racers who were more diehard than the rest. It became a participation championship. At least it doesn't appear that we've gotten to that situation here yet. The 50% drop season came down to the last heat of the last (12th I think) race, and we still had good turnouts at the end of the season. People have lives that get in the way of racing toy cars. Someone who's married with kids, a house, and a job is almost immediately at a disadvantage to someone with far fewer responsibilities. In an ideal world life would work itself around our racing, but I've never had it happen that way.

I'm not sure I'd say to change the rules mid-season, as others have made sacrifices based on the current rules. But for future seasons, the rules need to be structured to accomodate more than just the diehards.

Someone made a comment about what's best for the racers. That should certainly be considered, but in the end, the decision needs to be based on what's best for the hobby.

svt-racer
2007.09.21, 05:27 PM
I agree with most of the thoughts you mentioned in your post. However everybody should remember that the racers is what mostly make this hobby work (in my opinion).

One of your points is right on the money. A championship of participation is all that it becomes when you do not allow the drops in the series. This is more true in this season 4 since the points now start at 300. You miss one, guess what, you are completely out of luck and 300pts down. Yeah, you try to make that up in the rest of the 11 races. Doesn't that kill the spirit of the competition? What racer wants to continue to be in the hunt being 300 points down for missing a race. They will simply say "I will catch up with you guys next season when you allow at least two drops back in the series".

I bet you guys did not considered this when the proposal was brought up for the first time to see if the judges would buy into it. Whoever brought up the need to eliminate the two drops had already in mind running the whole series at all cost to try to get to the top and not realized that they were turning a decent HFAY series into a participation championship.

pinwc4
2007.09.21, 05:57 PM
The difference here is you are comparing HFAY to a race series that occur on the same track over and over. In that case drops make sense. But for HFAY we have 12 different races within the season. No duplications. By having drops you can not longer fairly and equally compare racers at the end of a season. A lack of drops keeps things simple and equal.

Maybe the drops issue is a regional thing. In my area the point series do not have drops and see it as crazy. But we also have our races across multiple different tracks and locations.

onrailz
2007.09.21, 06:32 PM
The difference here is you are comparing HFAY to a race series that occur on the same track over and over. In that case drops make sense. But for HFAY we have 12 different races within the season. No duplications. By having drops you can not longer fairly and equally compare racers at the end of a season. A lack of drops keeps things simple and equal.

Maybe the drops issue is a regional thing. In my area the point series do not have drops and see it as crazy. But we also have our races across multiple different tracks and locations.

With 2 drops you are still averaging a driver's skills over 10 races. To say that you can't accurately derive a true champion from that is a real stretch.

bemoore
2007.09.21, 06:56 PM
The difference here is you are comparing HFAY to a race series that occur on the same track over and over.

Not so. It's been a while, but I remember at least 6 tracks in the series. So, you could compete the series and completely avoid several of the tracks. We structured it that way on purpose because some of the tracks were 2 hrs away for some of the racers.

pinwc4
2007.09.21, 08:47 PM
With 2 drops you are still averaging a driver's skills over 10 races. To say that you can't accurately derive a true champion from that is a real stretch.

Not a stretch at all, I was saying you can not accurately compare the two drivers, not that you can not declare a champion. The rules determine how that is decided.

svt-racer
2007.09.22, 02:23 AM
Not a stretch at all, I was saying you can not accurately compare the two drivers, not that you can not declare a champion. The rules determine how that is decided.
The flaw is in the rules. To compare two guys with same level of skills and one have 11 races vs the other one with 12. Are you going to say that the one who raced 12 is definitevely a faster driver than the one who ran 11? Just look at the points for this season based on the current rules, and that is the result you are going to get. Bottom line, the rules should have never been set without having drops in the series.

Let me ask you. The top 2 guys in the series for last year. Imagine that this year one of the two drivers misses one race. The other driver automatically will have higher points by the end of the season if he never misses a race, therefore you declare that guy the "Fastest" of the group...the Champion of the series!!!! What did you really accomplished? All because he attended one more race than his closest competitor....really makes this an attendance series more than anything.

Lets vote to modify the rules for this year and re-incorporate the two race drops. I am in favor of incorporating the two drops again for this season.

pinwc4
2007.09.22, 10:05 AM
The flaw is in the rules. To compare two guys with same level of skills and one have 11 races vs the other one with 12. Are you going to say that the one who raced 12 is definitevely a faster driver than the one who ran 11? Just look at the points for this season based on the current rules, and that is the result you are going to get. Bottom line, the rules should have never been set without having drops in the series.

Let me ask you. The top 2 guys in the series for last year. Imagine that this year one of the two drivers misses one race. The other driver automatically will have higher points by the end of the season if he never misses a race, therefore you declare that guy the "Fastest" of the group...the Champion of the series!!!! What did you really accomplished? All because he attended one more race than his closest competitor....really makes this an attendance series more than anything.

Lets vote to modify the rules for this year and re-incorporate the two race drops. I am in favor of incorporating the two drops again for this season.

OK, for your top 2 guys, now imagine that the guy that missed the race was was head after 10 races, but at the 11 race fell behind and then missed the 12th race altogether. But now because of drops he is ahead. What did we really accomplish. We no longer fairly and accurately showed who was the fastest. Instead we provided an approximation of who we think is which in this case is wrong. That is the difference I am trying to convey. When dropping the races the comparison is no longer equal and fair.

Unfortunately like I mentioned in a different thread this breaks down when people do not participate. Last season we only had 26 people that made all the events and about twice that number that made at least 10 events.

You created a second thread that I think hits the bigger point. How do we get more people participating.

bemoore
2007.09.22, 11:57 AM
When dropping the races the comparison is no longer equal and fair.

The problem with making everything "equal and fair" by your definition is that you exclude everyone except the few who can sacrifice enough of their life to make it to all the races.

If you want to make sure the championship forces everyone to run every layout, cut the number of layouts in half, run each of them twice, and make everyone run at least one race on each layout. It would take a bit more coordination by the racers. "Hmm, I have 7 finishes, but did I race on this weeks layout?" But it would still allow much more flexibility in scheduling. Of course, this is a major change to the structure and would have to be implemented next season.

pinwc4
2007.09.22, 12:26 PM
The problem with making everything "equal and fair" by your definition is that you exclude everyone except the few who can sacrifice enough of their life to make it to all the races.

I do go by the philosophy of if you race you get points if you don't then no points. Especially with the flexibility there is for submitting results ahead of time. I would hope clubs would not wait until the last moment for running races and submitting results. Maybe it is just our club but we always have the ability to make up a missed race. We are just a group of racers having fun and willing to help each other. I am not sacrificing my life for this, it is meant to be fun.


If you want to make sure the championship forces everyone to run every layout, cut the number of layouts in half, run each of them twice, and make everyone run at least one race on each layout. It would take a bit more coordination by the racers. "Hmm, I have 7 finishes, but did I race on this weeks layout?" But it would still allow much more flexibility in scheduling. Of course, this is a major change to the structure and would have to be implemented next season.

This had crossed my mind as a good idea but I assumed most people would not like throwing out half the results of a season.

will3kgt
2007.09.23, 03:54 PM
Why am I reading the word SACRIFICE in these posts? Every racer I know is there because they WANT to be there not because they HAD to be there. I think that we should have a vote on weather or not we have two drops THIS SEASON. What will it hurt? Those who are against it might find themselves moving up a few spots :rolleyes: I myself am for the drops and I know for a fact that I'll lose at leat 3-5 spots, and I also know that in the end it benifits the growth of our series. Just my opinion.

arch2b
2007.09.23, 04:29 PM
fyi, svt can add a public opinion poll to this thread if he's interested in atleast seeing how the gernal public would vote.

imxlr8ed
2007.09.24, 09:12 AM
With 2 drops you are still averaging a driver's skills over 10 races. To say that you can't accurately derive a true champion from that is a real stretch.

Ok... pretty much had it.

Onrailz... tell me how it was fair to Gasman in Season 2?

I didn't push for the no drops because I'm militant... I didn't push for the no drops because I do nothing but sit and race little RC cars all day long... I didn't push for the no drops just because I had some crazy idea to screw up other participants... I pushed for the no drops because that's the only true way to figure who's really pushing it to the limit. Look, my tests in school were not graded with erasable ink, they didn't drop two "F" scores on test when figuring the final grades, my boss doesn't let me screw up 2 projects just because 10 of them went well. My girlfriend doesn't let me screw around on her for two years as long as I give her 10 good ones... (I hope you get my point here by now)

I understand that on a month to month basis, scheduling to get to the track can be tough... but that's why I also pushed for the pre-race rule. There was thought into this and there was a vote, I only pleaded my case.

Tired of the bickering and all the petty insinuations... so I'm getting straight to the heart of it here... tell Gasman how it was fair to him in Season 2, seriously... do some new math graph or something, plot it out for us... prove it and I'll go with the 2 drops rule. Does consistency count for nothing???

I've said my peace... regardless, DOW is out of Season 4. Wish you all the best!

onrailz
2007.09.24, 02:01 PM
Ok... pretty much had it.

Onrailz... tell me how it was fair to Gasman in Season 2?



It was fair because we BOTH knew that it would come down to taking the best 10 out of 12 results from that season and adding them up. Turned out that his 10 best weren't as fast as mine. Fair and square. It wasn't something they just sprung on us at the end of the season.

This also might make Gasman feel better- If I knew there were no drops and all the races mattered that season... it would have been an even bigger gap to 2nd.

As for you DOW guys being in or out of season 5, sounds like it's based on the rules giving you an edge or not.

-ONRAILZ

imxlr8ed
2007.09.24, 05:02 PM
No edge required.

So... you're saying Gasman would've gotten more points, or you would've gotten less if you knew all counted? (the all counted gap favored him if you recall, so which "gap" are you referring to?)

Are you trying to say you were sandbagging it?... hmmm, guess that's synonymous with a low point drop system, you had that luxury right? Nice to know you gave it your best.

We're dropping because my crew would rather race the bigger layouts... that is the only reason... we don't need rules to favor us.

Way to rise above dude... true measure of a champion.

I race for fun... that's all it's about. When the BS gets deeper than the fun thing... that's when it's time to get out. Some take this stuff way too serious.

Good luck to all!

onrailz
2007.09.24, 05:34 PM
Not Sandbagging exactly, just never laying out more than you have to. That's common in all types of competition. Get used to it.

Still no comment on this though-
"It was fair because we BOTH knew that it would come down to taking the best 10 out of 12 results from that season and adding them up. Turned out that his 10 best weren't as fast as mine. Fair and square. It wasn't something they just sprung on us at the end of the season."

You wanted me to explain to you how season 2 was fair... What don't you guys get about that?

GrfxDan
2007.09.25, 11:09 AM
Changing the rules mid-season is the wrong thing to do. The judges voted and the decision was made before the season started. If any club was unhappy with that decision they should have decided not to participate at that time.

Individual club members that have any beef with the rules should go to their club's judge and voice their complaints. A public forum debating the rules only serves to incite dissention and does absolutely no good for the series. If you don't like the rules GO THROUGH THE PROPER CHANNELS to try to get them changed, don't start a negative champaign in a public forum!

As for what's fair and what's not, to get an ACCURATE AND FAIR ASSESSMENT of who the best driver is, ALL DRIVERS must race the EXACT SAME LAYOUT THE EXACT SAME NUMBER OF TIMES. PERIOD.

If drops are to be introduced into the series again then it should be that there are 3 layouts instead of 6 and that each layout is ran twice (both directions). Then, the best times from each layout are used and the worst times are dropped. This would be a 50% drop (6 out of 12 races), with only 50% of the races included in the points calculations. This way points from every driver racing the exact same layouts are used to FAIRLY calculate the champions. YOU CAN NOT GET A FAIR ASSESSMENT WHEN DROPS ARE ALLOWED ON DIFFERING LAYOUTS. It's simply IMPOSSIBLE. Anyone that thinks you can DOES NOT UNDERSTAND statistics and point calculations.

My Final Word: DROPS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED IN SEASON 4. CHANGING THE RULES MID-SEASON IS WRONG. IF YOU DIDN'T LIKE THE RULES AS THEY WERE PRESENTED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SEASON THEN WHY ARE YOU COMPETING?!

YBSLOW
2007.09.25, 11:44 AM
Changing the rules mid-season is the wrong thing to do. The judges voted and the decision was made before the season started. If any club was unhappy with that decision they should have decided not to participate at that time.

Individual club members that have any beef with the rules should go to their club's judge and voice their complaints. A public forum debating the rules only serves to incite dissention and does absolutely no good for the series. If you don't like the rules GO THROUGH THE PROPER CHANNELS to try to get them changed, don't start a negative champaign in a public forum!

As for what's fair and what's not, to get an ACCURATE AND FAIR ASSESSMENT of who the best driver is, ALL DRIVERS must race the EXACT SAME LAYOUT THE EXACT SAME NUMBER OF TIMES. PERIOD.

If drops are to be introduced into the series again then it should be that there are 3 layouts instead of 6 and that each layout is ran twice (both directions). Then, the best times from each layout are used and the worst times are dropped. This would be a 50% drop (6 out of 12 races), with only 50% of the races included in the points calculations. This way points from every driver racing the exact same layouts are used to FAIRLY calculate the champions. YOU CAN NOT GET A FAIR ASSESSMENT WHEN DROPS ARE ALLOWED ON DIFFERING LAYOUTS. It's simply IMPOSSIBLE. Anyone that thinks you can DOES NOT UNDERSTAND statistics and point calculations.

My Final Word: DROPS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED IN SEASON 4. CHANGING THE RULES MID-SEASON IS WRONG. IF YOU DIDN'T LIKE THE RULES AS THEY WERE PRESENTED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE SEASON THEN WHY ARE YOU COMPETING?!


I agree with almost all of this post. I think 2 drops for next season would be fine. I think having six drops defeats the purpose of having a points series.

I completely agree you cannot change in the middle of the season after results have all ready been posted and a club that drops out now after all ready knowing the rules before the season started I hust don't get the logic and do not understand who that is going to hurt other than your club?

Drops are used when you absolutely can't make a race event or have a really bad day racing due to breakage normally. Saying you have to race the same tracks to calculate points does not make sense to me either unless you can guarantee the exact same drivers at those exact same tracks each time which would be impossible and we are not doing a statistics analysis we are "racing" which has way to many variables to do an exact analysis so that point just doesn't make sense to me.

THE BIG PROBLEM IS NOT GETTING ACCURATE REPRESENTATION FROM JUDGES ABOUT THE ENTIRE CLUBS OPINIONS ON AN ISSUE GEFORE THE SERIES IS STARTED.

I personally do not care what the rules are, I just want to know what they are and know they are not going to change midstream.

Hood
2007.09.25, 12:05 PM
I think OnRailz and YBSlow have the correct idea..

I believe the judges made a mistake in taking away the drops for Season 4, but it would be even worse to change the rules in the middle of a Season.. Take the lump and we can re-enact the drops for Season 5.

Everyone knows the rules going into the season, YBSlow was off the track with a steering problem and came back on the track making up time on a record pace.. I know what OnRailz means when he says he only puts out there what is necessary. I watched brad unlap himself 4-5 times to take the lead back from me in that race and I didn't slow down a bit.. The fastest I have ever seen him on the track..

We have known the rules since the beginning and nothing has changed. It may have been a bad decision by the judges, but it is the decision that we went with..

If the DOW club wants to run the larger tracks and they are out of HFAY, how did that become an issue in our discussion of the way the points are calculated? Certainly they are not mad about the fact that the rules haven't changed after half of the series is run!! The correct time to complain was before the season started!!

I see this alot in life, I was asked to change the scoring system in our Fantasy Football League after one of the teams lost because of taking away points if your player fumbles. Guess who had a critical fumble that changed the outcome of a game?
People were mad at me for questioning the way the Club Championships were calculated. I didn't ask for a change, just a clarification.. Our Club had five of the top 10 drivers and we were listed in fourth place.. I don't think my questioning was wrong, but people sure got HOT about it..

This is a competition, and people will win and lose no matter what the rules are.. The judges need to try their best to put forth good rules with good intent and stick with what they decide..

I hope DOW continues racing with us, but not because we changed the rules or didn't change the rules. Because they want to..

At the end of my 1/4 scale event this weekend, I heard a great quote.. Some of these drivers drive 12-14 hours to get to an event and spend 3 days there to enjoy themselves, we have no drops even with the long travel..

"At the end of the day, we are all just racing toy cars for the fun of it!"

Try to remember this!


P.S. I just noticed that Onrailz a former champion and last season's runner up has had a bad race this season. The drops would put him right back into the championship hunt, but he agrees that we should leave it the same. Nobody would benefit more from a rule change, but he is staying true to the series and what is best for everyone.. That is what it is to be a true champion.. Making decisions that are for the greater good..

imxlr8ed
2007.09.25, 12:55 PM
I personally didn't care if the rule was changed for this Season, during this Season... even if I was going to run the whole thing with my club. I just wanted all to make sure it was a voted on issue with full representation from as many participants as possible. When it comes to HFAY, I go with majority rule... period. That's how I put all of these manuals together... we all take deep looks into this stuff and we all give our opinions in doing so. (the beauty of it all really)

I unfortunately have no choice with my clubs decision either... they're just interested in running the bigger tracks. Believe me... I would run the whole thing if I had the time and the willing crew. And I would still run it all with the same stupid smile on my face even if we re-introduced the point drops for this current Season. (damn... there goes that "advantage" I snuck ever so quietly into the rules for my militant club :rolleyes: ) I never really cared where I ended up position-wise, I have always been more concerned about whether or not my racers were enjoying themselves with the events.

I'm dedicated to the Series and all it's about... I'm still going to put up the 16 & Under prizes, I've put out a good chunk of change for this in the past Seasons and to me it's still the best thing I could do for it! I find this more rewarding than any finish position I could get.

And Onrailz... Believe it or not, I still have great respect for your skills, I don't doubt it for an instant, it was just that I was the one who watched my guy here go through every emotion in the world when those results came out for Season 2. I was just trying to point out a clear example of how the point drops could ruin one racers hopes. (and make that racer drop HFAY entirely) It could've been anyone really, but you were the one that was up there then.

Gotta think to yourself... if the shoe was on the other foot, how would you have reacted? I didn't say one thing up until all this stuff, but I feel I had to point out one of the other major motivations for pushing for the no points drop side of it.

But... like I said, if the majority of participants want the drops... I will gladly add them. If anything, this whole thing finally has everyone's attention.

svt-racer
2007.09.25, 08:41 PM
Was this topic discussed at lenght like we are doing now prior to the season start? I don't think it did and if it did, it must have been at the judges forum.

onrailz
2007.09.25, 10:21 PM
Gotta think to yourself... if the shoe was on the other foot, how would you have reacted? I didn't say one thing up until all this stuff, but I feel I had to point out one of the other major motivations for pushing for the no points drop side of it.


The shoe WAS on the other foot. In fact it started out on MY foot! In Season 1 our club joined this series but didn't really grasp the concept of what we were involved in. I ran the first two races of the season like a joke. I remember stopping on the track to wait for a specific guy to come around to race with- kinda like an open practice! Then the results were posted and we were all blown away by the kind of buckling down we had to do to even stay decently ranked! I proceeded to go on to win 6 events to Gasman's 2. Without a drop system I realized pretty soon that the top spot would never happen though. I was bummed, our club was bummed but that was the end of it. I then came into season 2 with something to prove and did.

I'm sorry that things have gotten a bit heated over these posts but I think it's represenitive of our passion for what we believe will be the best for the program. I also think it's good for everyone involved to see the multiple points of the drop subject.

I have great respect for you and your club as well. I've spent many late nights working on my setup to try and compete with some "DOW" guy who I'd never even met! How cool! I think it would be cool for us OLPS racers to meet up at some big non OLPS race and all pit together like one giant club!

Thanks for the many great seasons of racing and your personal contributions to HFAY, Imxlr8ed. I really hope you guys reconsider racing HFAY in the future.

-Onrailz

GrfxDan
2007.09.25, 10:38 PM
Was this topic discussed at lenght like we are doing now prior to the season start? I don't think it did and if it did, it must have been at the judges forum.

YES, THIS WAS DISCUSSED AT LENGTH, AND YES, IT WAS IN THE JUDGES FORUM... WHERE IT SHOULD BE.

As I've said in my last point: If anyone has a problem with the rules the proper channel is their club's judge(s). The judges represent their clubs; they discuss rule changes and vote to approve/dissapprove the changes. If you're unhappy with the rules TALK TO YOUR JUDGE.

rharris
2007.09.26, 01:54 AM
I really miss HFAY. When I told the kids in my club that drops were gone, 100% of the kids dropped out. I managed to get a few kids to run a few races, but now when I run a HFAY race, no one wants to come.

This topic was discussed at length in the Judges forum. It got heated on both sides, but it stayed civil. And I don't think anyone got too bent out of shape. I'd like to think we all walked away with a mutual respect for each others opinions.

The current points system has issues. The drop system helped to alleviate a few big issues. Most importantly, if you miss one race then you are done. But also a factor is if a club has an unforeseen catastrophe then the club is done. It has been suggested that you can schedule events in advance. But that doesn't work out all that well either.

But the flip side is drops skew results from a strait points perspective. The argument goes that I had to drop more points then you did, and that's not fair to me.

So.. what then? Just like NASCAR, our points system needs a revamp.

So let's hear some good ideas. How do we keep guys interested and still reward guys who go the extra mile?

This is a bad place to start an argument, but it's a great place to hash ideas around for a brand new points system.

arch2b
2007.09.26, 09:03 AM
fyi, we already have a thraed for points calculations in the judges forum as well which has been ongoing for some time;) judges need to amke sure they are keeping up with whats taking place there :)

outside ideas are also wanted and welcome :p the more ideas the better.

to shed some light on the judges forum, there are dozens of ongoing discussion... we don't jsut sit around. teh trouble is, we don't get alot of participation which gets frustrating when complaints about how something si not working start to appear....

GrfxDan
2007.09.26, 01:58 PM
...the trouble is, we don't get alot of participation which gets frustrating when complaints about how something si not working start to appear....

Actually, the problem is that when new threads are started in the Judges forum the thread that all judges are supposed to be subscribed to is not updated and therefore the judges are not notified of the new threads. This is a flaw in vBulletin not allowing members to subscribe to an entire forum and be notified by email when new posts are made. The solution to have all judges subscribe to one thread and then have that thread updated when new threads are started is a good work-around for the problem BUT it only works when that initial thread is updated and that's not happening.

arch2b
2007.09.26, 02:15 PM
in my case atleast, this is not true. please check your forum tools drop down menu. i see an option to 'subscribe to this forum' if you don't see this let me know. if you do, than opps, i guess people don't take the time to look :rolleyes: . either way i will gladly resolve the issue if there it is indeed an issue. :)

GrfxDan
2007.09.26, 05:09 PM
I see the option - it's always been there. The problem is that it does not work. I've subscribed to many forums on multiple websites (not just this one) that use vBulletin and have never received email notification of new threads that are posted to the forums. The option simply does not work - that's the whole reason that there's a thread that all of the judges are supposed to subscribe to. If you subscribe to a thread and a new post is made to the thread then you will get an email notification. However, subscribing to a forum does not send you an email notification when there's a new thread created (as it should). The judges are supposed to be posting a reply to the "master thread" to let people know when they start a new thread. This way everyone is notified of the new thread. Nobody's been doing that and therefore when new threads are started nobody knows unless you happen to visit the judges forum regularly looking for new threads.

svt-racer
2007.09.26, 05:31 PM
YES, THIS WAS DISCUSSED AT LENGTH, AND YES, IT WAS IN THE JUDGES FORUM... WHERE IT SHOULD BE.

As I've said in my last point: If anyone has a problem with the rules the proper channel is their club's judge(s). The judges represent their clubs; they discuss rule changes and vote to approve/dissapprove the changes. If you're unhappy with the rules TALK TO YOUR JUDGE.
I dissagree with you. Talking to my local judge is NOT the only proper channel. Discussing this topic in the judges forum....do all the members have access to that forum? I don't think so... but please correct me if I am wrong.

Also I believe that if a person feels the need to bring a topic out to the open to all the HFAY participants then so be it. Why hide it behind the judges forum. Judges may represent the club, but that does not keep me from expressing my views and opinion and other members as well, completely in the open. You claim that this was discussed at length and voted off to keep the two drops out for this season and that ALL the HFAY participants voiced their opinion only through the local judges???? Why not in the open in the public forum?

It is funny how most of the people are voicing their opinion that for sure next season we should bring it back. How the heck is that a better idea and not thought about to be done this year. Oh, did people now see the reasoning why it should have been a good idea to keep the drops, but got somehow persuaded to voted off for this season? Did all the judges got all the participants opinion before voting on the subject? Are all the judges now rethinking that perhaps eliminating the drops was not necessarily the best thing to do? Thinking far ahead in advance is what it should have been done and it appears, just on this thread, that THAT was not the case. Again. Don't know if all the forum members have access to read the judges forum.

Too bad that you think this topic should not be discussed in the open public forum. That thought does not promote open and honest communication from your end or anybody elses that thinks that way.

pinwc4
2007.09.26, 06:12 PM
It is funny how most of the people are voicing their opinion that for sure next season we should bring it back.

You keep making statements like this and they are quite misleading. Most people have not voiced there opinion in this thread. As this thread continues more opinions have been voiced but do you honestly believe that the majority of the HFAY participants have had there opinion expressed in this thread?

This comes back to why the judges have a very critical duty for this point series. They must communicate regularly with the members of there club to make sure every opinion counts because most people do not actively participate in the forums. If the judges are not doing this they have failed thier club and the HFAY point series.

Now do not take this as me saying that having public discussion of a topic is not of value just the weight you are giving it is not accurate.

I would expect that many people are just being quiet because this thread is actively hostile.

briankstan
2007.09.26, 06:51 PM
Guys,

I have been following this thread and it really suprises me because of the personal attacks some have taken against others.

either way you look at it the results are adjusted to fit one side or the other.

if there are NO drops it hurts those that have missed races or have had a bad race.

if there ARE drops it takes earned points away from those that ran in the race.

I don't see how you can argue that either one is correct. there really is no right decisive factor. you can't really do one with out activly hurting the other.

this is not a racing series that sole purpose it to judge who is the most consistant, Racing by nature you have to deal with technical issues, breakage, skill, and yes LUCK.

the # of racer in each races can play into how many points you earn. there are really alot of factors.

Let's all calm down, and discuss it rationally. Voice your opinions and let your judges know how you feel about the issues. then the vote is taken. if you don't like the rules don't participate, or lobby to change them.

if you all knew we had this same discusison, and it was equally fought just as hard as you guys are now, only it was about eliminating the drops.

GrfxDan
2007.09.26, 06:51 PM
I dissagree with you. Talking to my local judge is NOT the only proper channel. Discussing this topic in the judges forum....do all the members have access to that forum? I don't think so... but correct me if I am wrong. Do we have access to that forum?????

Also I believe that if a person feels the need to bring a topic out to the open to all the HFAY participants then so be it. Why hide it behind the judges forum of a discussion with the local judge. That is BS. Judges may represent the club, but that does not keep me from expressing my views and opinion and other members as well completely in the open. You claim that this was discussed at length and voted off to keep the two drops out for this season and that ALL the HFAY participants voiced their opinion only through the local judges???? Why not in the open in the public forum?

It is funny how most of the people are voicing their opinion that for sure next season we should bring it back. How the hell is that a better idea and not though about to be done this year. Oh, did people now see the reasoning why it should have been a good idea to keep the drops, but got somehow persuaded to voted off for this season? Did all the judges got all the participants opinion before voting on the subject? Are all the judges now rethinking that perhaps eliminating the drops was not necessarily the best thing to do? Thinking far ahead in advance is what it should have been done and it appears, just on this thread, that THAT was not the case. Again. Don't know if all the forum members have access to read the judges forum.

Too bad that you think this topic should not be discussed in the open public forum. That thought does not promote open and honest communication from your end or anybody elses that thinks that way.

No, not every HFAY participant has access to the judges forums. ONLY THE JUDGES have access to the JUDGES forum (thus the name "Judges Forum"). EVERY CLUB is represented in the judges forum by their judge(s). If you feel your club's voice hasn't been heard then perhaps you should ask your club judge(s) why that's the case.

Discussing issues in an open public forum is fine and I encourage it. I have no problem with public discussion of the issues. However, once an issue is discussed and put to a vote in the judges forum that should be the end of it. For participants to be openly hostile about an vote outcome in a public forum is what is BS, not the outcome itself. If you don't like the outcome of THE OFFICIAL VOTING BODY of the HFAY club then don't participate in the series! You are welcome to voice your opinion but YOU don't set the rules. You are, however, required to abide by then if you participate. Your club's judge should represent the majority opinion of your club and vote accordingly. If you don't like the outcome of the vote then you do not have to participate in the series. In fact, if the rules are unacceptable in your view then you SHOULD NOT participate. If you didn't like the no drops rule why are you participating?

Yes, it is possible that the drops could be added again next season... if the majority of the judges decide to reinstate drops. VOICE YOUR OPINION WITH YOUR JUDGE so he can represent you.

arch2b
2007.09.26, 07:30 PM
I see the option - it's always been there. The problem is that it does not work. I've subscribed to many forums on multiple websites (not just this one) that use vBulletin and have never received email notification of new threads that are posted to the forums. The option simply does not work - that's the whole reason that there's a thread that all of the judges are supposed to subscribe to. If you subscribe to a thread and a new post is made to the thread then you will get an email notification. However, subscribing to a forum does not send you an email notification when there's a new thread created (as it should). The judges are supposed to be posting a reply to the "master thread" to let people know when they start a new thread. This way everyone is notified of the new thread. Nobody's been doing that and therefore when new threads are started nobody knows unless you happen to visit the judges forum regularly looking for new threads.
fyi, most of the updates to that thread are from me.. so it's being used, just not by everyone.
i am also going to a back up method to make sure everyone in the season 4 judges directory is included in pot/thread notifications. i'm working on it :)

pinwc4
2007.09.26, 10:03 PM
fyi, most of the updates to that thread are from me.. so it's being used, just not by everyone.
i am also going to a back up method to make sure everyone in the season 4 judges directory is included in pot/thread notifications. i'm working on it :)

Off topic I know but just to confirm what GrfxDan is saying the subscribe option for forums has never worked for me. And the subscribing to threads seems to just work intermittently.

arch2b
2007.09.26, 10:09 PM
thanks for the update. i hope to have plan b up and running as soon as i get an email reply ;) rest assured, i'm working on it as i feel, just as you, that it's important we have the tools necessary to enable us to do our work effectively.

pinwc4
2007.09.26, 10:27 PM
Somewhat back on topic....

Adding to Brian's post one thing everyone needs to keep in mind is HFAY is still evolving, changing. Our club started part way in S1 and I do not think any season has occurred without some sort of change. I also do not think there is anything else exactly like this series so we are learning as we go along. There are also going to be portions of the rules that not everyone agrees with. Once there are numerous people this becomes impossible to achieve.

But this is an awesome series and I am having fun being part of it.

imxlr8ed
2007.09.27, 03:10 AM
Somewhat back off topic... sorry again, but these ideas just pop in there...

I wonder if there is a way to have a participants forum on here? That way we can filter out the non-HFAY forum racers. Nothing against you guys (the outsiders)... really! We just need to have a clear channel with our racers. Our main goal is to get opinions and if we have every Tom, **** and Harry popping their opinions out there, it'll get messy. We obviously want outsiders opinions too, but when it comes to the rules... we have to listen to our actual participants alone.

If racers are dedicated to guiding the judges, and they desire something like a Judges forum for themselves to get their own individual ideas, opinions and polls out there, they should have it.

Maybe we could just PM a password out to all the judges to give to our already known participants? Or would we have to give them rights to their own forum? Or just make the current HFAY forum exclusive to participants only?

I could see it as a place where all the racers come together to discuss issues... a place the judges could listen to all competitors. If we have over 100 racers giving their opinion on certain issues... I'm sure we'll end up with fairly clear majorities on one side of each of them. It is very clear that some members feel that their voice wasn't heard... and I don't want this to happen again.

If something like this does happen, I would like to ask the Judges to have a drivers meeting with all of their participants and let them know where to go (give them a link to what I see as the HFAY Racers Forum), and tell them that their participation is not only welcome... but needed dearly!

HFAY is obviously highly integrated with online resources... maybe we just need to take one more step out there.

(I love making more work for Brian & Arch! ;) wish I was more tech smart!)

svt-racer
2007.09.27, 07:07 AM
That sounds like a good idea. It could be a section for HFAY Members only to discuss what is going on in the series, upcoming seasons, etc. I am game for that!!!

arch2b
2007.09.27, 08:37 AM
imx, your killing me here :rolleyes: :p in all seriousness, it's a good idea. it will be on this weekends agenda for forum admin discussion :) i'll make something happen....

will3kgt
2007.09.27, 09:45 AM
I really miss HFAY. When I told the kids in my club that drops were gone, 100% of the kids dropped out. I managed to get a few kids to run a few races, but now when I run a HFAY race, no one wants to come.

This topic was discussed at length in the Judges forum. It got heated on both sides, but it stayed civil. And I don't think anyone got too bent out of shape. I'd like to think we all walked away with a mutual respect for each others opinions.

The current points system has issues. The drop system helped to alleviate a few big issues. Most importantly, if you miss one race then you are done. But also a factor is if a club has an unforeseen catastrophe then the club is done. It has been suggested that you can schedule events in advance. But that doesn't work out all that well either.

But the flip side is drops skew results from a strait points perspective. The argument goes that I had to drop more points then you did, and that's not fair to me.

So.. what then? Just like NASCAR, our points system needs a revamp.

So let's hear some good ideas. How do we keep guys interested and still reward guys who go the extra mile?

This is a bad place to start an argument, but it's a great place to hash ideas around for a brand new points system.
I agree with your 1st point. Your club participation has dropped 100% with the kids as soon as they found out there were no drops and I think THAT SUCKS! :mad: I would gladly sacrifice my points for more participation in this series. I could care less how many points I've had to drop I care more about the competition. Anyway, next season I'm sure we'll all do what's best for HFAY, so I'll just finish the season hoping I don't get a flat tire on the way to my races or something else that would ruin my season. :D

mini-z
2007.09.27, 11:13 AM
It would be the same as Nascar changing the scoring system in the middle of the year. Now we are going to count the last 8 races of the year for the chase instead of 10 because Dale Jr had a bad race in the first part and needs two more chances to make the top 12 for example.

I have no problem changing rules in the middle of a season but not scoring outcomes.

The race I missed a minute and you say would mostly like be my drop is irrelevent to the discusion and I finished 3rd overall in that race.

B, I'm not familiar w/ NASCAR so I wasn't sure if that was an example that actually happened or an illustration of something that would never happen, but, F1 changes rules constantly, even during the season, in order to ensure that their priorities are reflected in the racing. I guess we just need to determine whether our priority is increased overall participation by a larger number of people or ensuring that a small number of people have 100% participation. My preference would be to encourage as many people as possible to participate in the series. :)

mini-z
2007.09.27, 11:20 AM
tell Gasman how it was fair to him in Season 2, seriously... do some new math graph or something, plot it out for us... prove it and I'll go with the 2 drops rule.

imx, I'm in no way trying to stir anything up, but, can you outline your guys' standpoint on this for us so that we can understand where you're coming from? I understand what you're asking, but I guess I'm not clear on the basis - can you explain for anyone who's not clear, what was unfair in S2? Just to make it extra clear, I'm not trying to challenge you or start anything, I'm trying to gather as much information about the topic as possible, to help me see through the eyes of someone who has been hurt or upset by drops, in order to better make up my own mind on the topic. :)

mini-z
2007.09.27, 11:30 AM
As for what's fair and what's not, to get an ACCURATE AND FAIR ASSESSMENT of who the best driver is, ALL DRIVERS must race the EXACT SAME LAYOUT THE EXACT SAME NUMBER OF TIMES. PERIOD.


And the same exact competitors on the track with them, with the same weather conditions, with the same budget and access to parts - unfortunately, that's not practical, so we have to make compromises. We run several mains for our races, and the same driver would in most cases do better in the A main than in the C main, since the others around them would be better at allowing passes, not backing into people when (if) the crash, etc. This alone makes it impossible to compare directly between drivers who aren't in the same literal race. For the people who really want a one-on-one comparison, there are the time trials, which are a much more accurate reflection of how fast someone is - they can keep doing it over and over to get their fastest lap and submit times whenever they want. For those who only care about this aspect of competition, we have the time trials. For those who are more interested in having fun and growing the hobby, we have the HFAY OLPS. Between the two, it seems like everyone s/b served regardless of their goal. :)

mini-z
2007.09.27, 11:37 AM
YES, THIS WAS DISCUSSED AT LENGTH, AND YES, IT WAS IN THE JUDGES FORUM... WHERE IT SHOULD BE.

As I've said in my last point: If anyone has a problem with the rules the proper channel is their club's judge(s). The judges represent their clubs; they discuss rule changes and vote to approve/dissapprove the changes. If you're unhappy with the rules TALK TO YOUR JUDGE.

D, I'm just trying to understand your point here - for example, our Judges voted for drops in S4, but we didn't get them - what are our club members supposed to say to be saying to our Judges, who voted correctly along the lines of their wishes? I don't understand the problem with public discussion - what if 1/3 of a club's members felt strongly in opposition to the 2/3 whose vote got counted - shouldn't we allow them to test the waters to see if there are other people in other clubs w/ the same ideas? Again, I'm just trying to see things from your perspective so that I can better understand the point you're trying to make. :)

mini-z
2007.09.27, 11:44 AM
I really miss HFAY. When I told the kids in my club that drops were gone, 100% of the kids dropped out. I managed to get a few kids to run a few races, but now when I run a HFAY race, no one wants to come.

This is one of the most fascinating real-world examples I've seen posted in this discussion. R, did you explain to the kids that even though they were discouraged from participating, there were some people on the other end to whom participation was the most critical aspect of the series, and that this was deemed more important by the Judges? Wasn't that enough to make them come back? If requiring 100% commitment in order for people to feel that it's worth participating at all didn't convince them to stay, I fear that the lack of drops this season may have had a catastrophic effect on participation, and that this was demonstrated clearly and irrefutably for at least the group described here. Yikes.


So let's hear some good ideas. How do we keep guys interested and still reward guys who go the extra mile?

This is a bad place to start an argument, but it's a great place to hash ideas around for a brand new points system.

Superbly put R. Did you have any suggestions to get us started? :)

briankstan
2007.09.27, 11:48 AM
I'm also for maximizing the participation (more work for me, but it's worth it).

I'm not really concerned about where I place, I'm just here to race, have fun and just see where I align with others out there. The prizes are a nice bonus, but the whole point of HFAY is to create a place were you are activily racing your cars. I know alot of people that buy R/C's use them for a little while and then toss them in a closet to never be seen again.

to be honest this has happened to me, this is why it is so important to give everyone a forum to participate in a racing series.

mini-z
2007.09.27, 12:01 PM
Is there anyone who does not agree with Brian and I that maximizing participation should be the primary focus of the HFAY OLPS? I'm not intending to challenge anyone, there might be someone who would rather have a small, more hard-core series, and I think it's important that we hear from that individual if this is the case. :)

YBSLOW
2007.09.27, 12:01 PM
B, I'm not familiar w/ NASCAR so I wasn't sure if that was an example that actually happened or an illustration of something that would never happen, but, F1 changes rules constantly, even during the season, in order to ensure that their priorities are reflected in the racing. I guess we just need to determine whether our priority is increased overall participation by a larger number of people or ensuring that a small number of people have 100% participation. My preference would be to encourage as many people as possible to participate in the series. :)

Just a hypothetical example that would never happen. Yes F1 changes rules. Changing a scoring system would never and has never happened in any form of racing mid season ever anywhere period not even in F1.

I am in favor of whatever creates more participation of course. Just not in favor of basically changing scoring systems midstream. I am ABSOLUTELY in favor of drops for season 5 if that is what the majority wants.

I have been racing RC cars for over 20 years on a National level and can say I have as much fun running these little cars as I do 1/8th scale onroad. It is always more fun with more people.

arch2b
2007.09.27, 12:16 PM
can we keep as much energy being shown on this topic to revising the points system as needed? ;) not to beat a dead horse but it seems like this issue in particular will be resolved quite soon. the bigger issue which has just as big an impact and even more so on select peoples time is the points system. to me thats the next hot potatoe which we only haev a couple months to resolve.

mini-z
2007.09.27, 12:16 PM
Just a hypothetical example that would never happen. Yes F1 changes rules. Changing a scoring system would never and has never happened in any form of racing mid season ever anywhere period not even in F1.

I am in favor of whatever creates more participation of course. Just not in favor of basically changing scoring systems midstream. I am ABSOLUTELY in favor of drops for season 5 if that is what the majority wants.

I have been racing RC cars for over 20 years on a National level and can say I have as much fun running these little cars as I do 1/8th scale onroad. It is always more fun with more people.

Cool, thanks for making those clarifications B. I guess I was thinking about things like significantly changing Quali throughout the season (which could obviously affect points, though indirectly). I highly value your input on all of this and am really happy to see you participating in this thread! :)

Interesting side note: F1 has had drops before! At one point, the best 11 of 16 results were those that determined the championship. For HFAY, that would equate to just shy of 4 drops! And that's for professional racers whose only job is racing! :)

imxlr8ed
2007.09.27, 02:42 PM
D, I'm just trying to understand your point here - for example, our Judges voted for drops in S4, but we didn't get them - what are our club members supposed to say to be saying to our Judges, who voted correctly along the lines of their wishes? :)

We did have a vote concerning the no drops issue before IV began and it was an easy majority that voted the no drop route in. Are you referring to the first poll for Season 3?

Gasman's view... he was against drops from the beginning, and they ended up being his downfall in Season 2. He pushed hard for every race, made sure his car would go the full 8 minutes, and drove his butt off. His consistency counted for nothing.

This was one of the major reasons my club dropped HFAY in Season 3... so it does go both ways.

rharris
2007.09.27, 03:12 PM
Did you have any suggestions to get us started? :)

I keep thinking of how a points series is run within core or ZRound. You get extra points for TQ.

The new rules in nascar changed the points spread. They also awarded points for leading the race. They also award points for the driver who lead the most laps.

We could probably do TQ (actually best lap) Maby even have a point spread for fastest laps. 1st = 20, 2nd 15, 3rd = 10pts? This would be simple, just have everyone post the fastes lap.

For leading the race... it would be cool to know the lap counts at each min. Then sort them and grant extra points for leading the race at Min1, Min2, Min3 etc...

If we had bonus points, then dropping your two worst races would not have the same impact.

The really fast guys running for 1st, would be rewarded for their diligence.

The hobby guys would not be discouraged for missing one or two races.

All this would mean that we would have to have automation and push the burden of data entry out to the club leaders. But we are activly pursuing this. Before we put any effort into this type of automation, I just wanted to know if anyone else thought this was a cool idea.

Thoughts?

rharris
2007.09.27, 03:15 PM
This was one of the major reasons my club dropped HFAY in Season 3... so it does go both ways.

I agree, this is a tough one. It has to be fun, and it's not fun feeling like you got the raw end of the deal.

Jonny
2007.09.27, 03:17 PM
R, I think you are searching along the right lines to find a middle ground solution for both sides of the vote. Good to hear this, even though it may bring extra work. I hope a fairly autonomous method can be achieved.

Jonny

arch2b
2007.09.27, 03:26 PM
i'm with johhny, this sounds like a very good middle ground approach to modifying the points calculations.
as mentioned, lets keep in mind that that the end goal is for automation so whatever we do now has to allow for this to happen so that we don't end up having to make significant changes later to get automation to work. i do like the idea of specialized points :) give us bottom dwellers a chance to score some bonus points which is nice. i never win a race but i've done some of the other things :p

briankstan
2007.09.27, 03:49 PM
I've been know to run a few really fast laps, but I can't keep the consistancy to run with some of these guys.

I'm all for the automation, especially if we end up implementing some of the more complicated calculations. my brain can only take so much before it goes into meltdown mode. :p

YBSLOW
2007.09.27, 03:55 PM
How about a bonus point for each lap, that way when you win by 5 or 6 laps you beat the second place guy by 5 points instead of 1. Yea........I like this idea. LOL!!

Brad

rharris
2007.09.27, 04:10 PM
How about a bonus point for each lap, that way when you win by 5 or 6 laps you beat the second place guy by 5 points instead of 1. Yea........I like this idea. LOL!!

Brad


Hey... that's a very clean idea. For each race run, you get one point per lap.

briankstan
2007.09.27, 04:18 PM
Hey... that's a very clean idea. For each race run, you get one point per lap.

how would you differenciate positions? some people run the same # of laps.

you would have to award points based on postion and then add the # of laps.

pinwc4
2007.09.27, 04:46 PM
How about a bonus point for each lap, that way when you win by 5 or 6 laps you beat the second place guy by 5 points instead of 1. Yea........I like this idea. LOL!!

Brad

Probably worth a separate discussion. I had wondered if basing your points directly on the number of laps you got would work well. For example I am lower in the ranking but where I typically land there will only be a difference of a few seconds between me and like 5 or more other people which makes a big difference in points. Then other guys there will be a difference in many laps between one position and the next below.

I may not understand your suggestion completely. Are you basically saying have a point scale like we do now but also add to the persons points the equivalent to the number of laps they got. So if I ranked 20th with 81 laps I would get 280 points for the 20th place plus 81 points for the laps I got? That is an interesting approach.

Overall it has been alway very interesting to watch the lap spread for people from event to event.

Dusty Weasle
2007.09.27, 05:19 PM
Interesting idea Brad. This is something similar that he's suggested for one of our local series. Perhaps it could be taken a step further to fix the issue of variable racers on a fixed points scale.

Currently the field is grafted onto a fixed points scale. The winner effectively pulls farther ahead of the total field when only 60 drivers are in a race vs 90 drivers. So how about this: Dump the points scale all together and simply score one point for each lap.

Scoring one point for each lap can create ties but that's ok, and it'll keep the field grouped points-wise by participation. No need to adjust the scale each season trying to predict participation levels.

I like the bonus ideas. I'm going to break it down a little different here:

TQ: 5pts. Do this at the club level.
This goes to the TQ spot for the A-Main only (for balance, as some clubs only have an A-Main, others have an F-Main so they'd get a lot more TQ's). The advantage here is the bonus is shot for at the club level, more attainable and instant gratification.

Fastest Club Lap: 10pts. Do this at the club level.
This bonus goes to the driver with the fastest single lap out of all Mains. Same balance and gratification reasons as above.

Fastest World Lap: 20pts. Do this at the series level.
This bonus goes to the fastest single lap scored by all world-wide drivers for that race. (Note: This does mean someone will score 30pts total out of that as someone's fastest somewhere will also be the fastest everywhere).

The addition of TQ and Fastest Lap is only two datum to the submitted scoring files, so this should be easily manageable.

We are moving toward scoring automation, but there are many systems and formats out there so we should probably start easy. Points for leading a lap would be good, but getting that to work automatically for everyone on this first go around is probably a bit much.

Remember, Season V starts in only a few months. So whatever we do has to be tested and working by then, and the holidays are going to take a big bite out of everyones available time.


For reference- NASCAR's bonus system: 5pts for leading a lap (only scored once, so 5pts max), and an additional 5pts for leading the most laps.

Dusty Weasle
2007.09.27, 05:33 PM
(The wife served lunch in the middle of my typing, so I've fallen a bit behind)

I just reread back several post- Reganrding Rharris' bonus fast lap idea: The fast lap bonus could go to the top three club and world fast laps drivers rather than just the first fastest.

It should be limited to the top three, since small clubs may only have three (Mini-AZ was in that boat for a long time). At the world level it would still need to be three for much the same reason, since small clubs only have three 'chances' at those bonuses where a club with 10 drivers has many more (remember, this would also go toward the Club Championship).

arch2b
2007.09.27, 08:28 PM
thanks for the update. i hope to have plan b up and running as soon as i get an email reply ;) rest assured, i'm working on it as i feel, just as you, that it's important we have the tools necessary to enable us to do our work effectively.
plan b is in effect. i know for a fact that i am missing svt-racers email address, so please email me;) i'm hoping plan b is working :)

GrfxDan
2007.09.27, 09:22 PM
I received notification of it. Thanks arch!

bemoore
2007.09.28, 08:50 AM
There is a problem with the one point per lap system. One club will have a Spoon or Gasman who will finish 50 laps much faster than the race at another club. The lap total for the other racers will be affected by how long it takes the winner to complete the race. Or do I misunderstand how the scoring works?

YBSLOW
2007.09.28, 09:13 AM
There is a problem with the one point per lap system. One club will have a Spoon or Gasman who will finish 50 laps much faster than the race at another club. The lap total for the other racers will be affected by how long it takes the winner to complete the race. Or do I misunderstand how the scoring works?

That is time trials. The sores come from the 8 minute finals that everyone runs the same amount of time.

mini-z
2007.09.28, 03:06 PM
We did have a vote concerning the no drops issue before IV began and it was an easy majority that voted the no drop route in. Are you referring to the first poll for Season 3?

I was referring to Dan's post:

YES, THIS WAS DISCUSSED AT LENGTH, AND YES, IT WAS IN THE JUDGES FORUM... WHERE IT SHOULD BE.

As I've said in my last point: If anyone has a problem with the rules the proper channel is their club's judge(s). The judges represent their clubs; they discuss rule changes and vote to approve/dissapprove the changes. If you're unhappy with the rules TALK TO YOUR JUDGE.

What I meant though, was: our club members aren't happy, and their judges voted correctly according to their wishes, so, as their judge, I'm not clear on what you're saying I should do. You say that they should not be talking about it publicly on the forums, but instead should be talking to me about it - what should I be telling them? I'm not trying to stir anything up, I just think that it's inevitable that at some later point there will be another situation where club members feel strongly enough about something to post, and I need to understand why I'm supposed to be telling them that they're not allowed, and need to just tell me about it instead. :confused:

RE Poll, I may be confused but I thought it was pretty much a tie and then someone switched sides later to alter the balance? This was S4's vote I'm referring to.


Gasman's view... he was against drops from the beginning, and they ended up being his downfall in Season 2. He pushed hard for every race, made sure his car would go the full 8 minutes, and drove his butt off. His consistency counted for nothing.

This was one of the major reasons my club dropped HFAY in Season 3... so it does go both ways.

I get it. I'm sure a lot of people will feel robbed this season because their results were massively skewed by a tire falling off in one race or a family emergency and not being able to drop it - I guess people can analyze every rule to say that if only it were the opposite they would have done better etc. - it's just a case of figuring out what will upset the least number of people I guess! :) Thanks for clarifying, I'm just trying to gather as much information and as many different perspectives as I can so that I can make the most informed decision possible. :)

imxlr8ed
2007.09.29, 02:32 AM
I get it. I'm sure a lot of people will feel robbed this season because their results were massively skewed by a tire falling off in one race

Could just as easily happen to the next guy too... lot's of races left.

3M tire tape, good tight alloy lock nuts, taping the body to the chassis, making sure you have the best batts in there for the race, general look over of everything on the car, marshalls in place and paying attention... all part of most of my crew's pre-game when we ran the events. Always thought that made it more exciting to make sure your weapon was as bulletproof as possible before the race.

will3kgt
2007.09.29, 01:49 PM
I understand telling your judge to vote a certain way on a rule, just not this one. Let's just say there's 6 memberS in one group that vote MAJORITY YES on a no drops rule. Then let's just say there's a 13 member club who vote MAJORITY NO because they know that would not be benifitial to the series. So in this matter, a good amount of the votes for NO DROPS doesn't count because we have one judge per club voting on this issue?! :eek: Next time we vote on an issue that will directly effect the participation of this series, let's make it a popular vote instead of an "electoral college" stlye vote. I think we all know the flaws of an electoral college. :rolleyes:

pinwc4
2007.09.29, 04:26 PM
I understand telling your judge to vote a certain way on a rule, just not this one. Let's just say there's 6 memberS in one group that vote MAJORITY YES on a no drops rule. Then let's just say there's a 13 member club who vote MAJORITY NO because they know that would not be benifitial to the series. So in this matter, a good amount of the votes for NO DROPS doesn't count because we have one judge per club voting on this issue?! :eek: Next time we vote on an issue that will directly effect the participation of this series, let's make it a popular vote instead of an "electoral college" stlye vote. I think we all know the flaws of an electoral college. :rolleyes:

Popular vote does not work for this as the majority of participants are not actively online here to vote. By that method less people get there opinion counted than the current method. But I believe your core concern will be addressed before next season. Most likely for next season the number of judges for a group will be determined by the size of the club. Because the judges should be communicating directly with all of their club members this is substantially different than an electoral college.

NEmicroAssoc
2007.10.01, 11:45 AM
This is the first I have been notifiied by Mini-Z forum! Did NEMA miss a vote on whether or not to have the 2 race drop? Is this the right forum to Vote?

NEMA votes to keep the rule of no-drops for THIS season. I have racers who have sacrificed to make as many races as they can, and NOW to allow the drops would be unfair to those who have read and obeyed them.

This is the first of the notices I have recieved yesterday and today (finally) and when I click to go to the thread I am not allowed access? What give there?????

briankstan
2007.10.01, 12:54 PM
This is the first I have been notifiied by Mini-Z forum! Did NEMA miss a vote on whether or not to have the 2 race drop? Is this the right forum to Vote?

NEMA votes to keep the rule of no-drops for THIS season. I have racers who have sacrificed to make as many races as they can, and NOW to allow the drops would be unfair to those who have read and obeyed them.

This is the first of the notices I have recieved yesterday and today (finally) and when I click to go to the thread I am not allowed access? What give there?????

I'll make sure you get access ASAP...

YBSLOW
2007.10.02, 12:36 PM
I thought the vote was suppose to be in by yesterday? Results?

briankstan
2007.10.04, 10:33 AM
I thought the vote was suppose to be in by yesterday? Results?

please see this post

http://www.mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26292

mini-z
2007.10.04, 01:03 PM
Could just as easily happen to the next guy too... lot's of races left.

3M tire tape, good tight alloy lock nuts,...

Hilariously, that was just meant as an abstract example - but, having never done so once prior that I can recall, I lost a tire 4 times in our most recent race! :o :rolleyes: :p :D :( :eek:

will3kgt
2007.10.04, 02:01 PM
So we had 56 people for this race. I see attendence has dropped again...... :rolleyes: Could it be the.....Nah.

svt-racer
2007.10.04, 11:38 PM
So we had 56 people for this race. I see attendence has dropped again...... :rolleyes: Could it be the.....Nah.


Will, I will fill in the blank....NO DROPS SITUATION....

It is a given that it had a big effect on the attendance. The great thing though is that we have a season 5 coming up, where we will get a chance to improve things over and beyond what we have this year. Looking forward to the new season and hopefully bring the attendance up once again. :cool:

will3kgt
2007.10.05, 12:09 PM
Agreed. I have nothing else to say on this issue. Proof is in the numbers.

YBSLOW
2007.10.09, 10:27 AM
Agreed. I have nothing else to say on this issue. Proof is in the numbers.

I guess that means if thr drops come back for season 5 we should attendance at least double? Or maybe even triple then?

That sounds great,
Brad

GrfxDan
2007.10.09, 12:27 PM
I guess that means if thr drops come back for season 5 we should attendance at least double? Or maybe even triple then?

That sounds great,
Brad

Yeah, right! What we'll most likely see is that everyone's CLAIMS of poor attendance due to no drops were just that, CLAIMS only. Sure, we'll see SOME increase because I'm sure there was SOME decrease due to no drops. But, triple or double? NO WAY. Those who aren't competing this season are using no drops as an EXCUSE only. My guess is they won't compete next season either, even if the drops are added back in.

YBSLOW
2007.10.11, 09:45 AM
Yeah, right! What we'll most likely see is that everyone's CLAIMS of poor attendance due to no drops were just that, CLAIMS only. Sure, we'll see SOME increase because I'm sure there was SOME decrease due to no drops. But, triple or double? NO WAY. Those who aren't competing this season are using no drops as an EXCUSE only. My guess is they won't compete next season either, even if the drops are added back in.

You are right, I was being sarcastic. LOL!!!

arch2b
2007.10.11, 10:50 AM
Yeah, right! What we'll most likely see is that everyone's CLAIMS of poor attendance due to no drops were just that, CLAIMS only....
Sure, we'll see SOME increase because I'm sure there was SOME decrease due to no drops. But, triple or double? NO WAY...
i hate to point this out but you just contradcited yourself in your own post. no one was seriously claiming particiaption would signifcantly increase, YBSLOW pointed out he was being sarcastic. but the point being, you can't dispell this issue in one sentence only to support it in the following sentence.

GrfxDan
2007.10.11, 11:05 AM
Okay, then let me clarify. What I meant was that everyone who claimed HUGH ATTENDANCE DECREASE because of no drops was EXAGGERATING the issue. I don't doubt that there were SOME people who choose not to participate because of the no drops. SOME, a couple, a few, not many, very small numbers. What I do doubt is that there was WIDE SPREAD DECREASE in attendance as some are CLAIMING. Hope that clears things up.

arch2b
2007.10.11, 11:16 AM
clearly understood :)

i don't know who was claiming HUGH ATTENDANCE DECREASE and or WIDE SPREAD DECREASE in attendance because of the no drops?

i know there have been comments regarding significant decrease in participation but i don't think anyone can rationally attribute all of them to this issue nor do i think anyone could rationally assume that was the meaning behind the statements. if you can find a direct quote, please do so. i can admit mistakes when made :p

GrfxDan
2007.10.11, 11:50 AM
if you can find a direct quote, please do so.

My wording was a paraphrase but the meaning is the same:

...When I told the kids in my club that drops were gone, 100% of the kids dropped out...

...this quote is from the HFAY Season 4 CHANGE PROPOSAL MOTION! (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25998&page=4&pp=15) thread.

According to Season 3 standings SRC had 18 kids (16 & under) competing (and 7 adults). 100% of the kids leaving because of no drops = 72% of the club leaving. Funny thing is there are still 6 racers 16 & under from SRC competing this season. Guess that's not quite 100% of them dropping out.

It's very easy for anyone, myself included, to exaggerate claims to make a point. The problem is when making decisions to change the HFAY series we need ACCURATE information, not exaggerated claims.

I'm sure if you read the rest of the thread you'll find others claiming attendance decrease as well - I distinctly remember that Rod wasn't the only person claiming attendance descrease because of no drops but I don't have the time to scour the threads to provide other direct quotes.

arch2b
2007.10.11, 01:54 PM
again, i don't see exaggerated claims...

rharris explains further in that post that he was able to eventually convince a small number of them to continue. who knows, maybe since then a few more have come around? his post was not concrete or difinitive in nature as you suggest. i think a little too much may be being read into some of these posts or comments?

i don't see any claims that would be considered exaggerated in nature but maybe in understanding.

i'm not disagreeing with you, i don't think everyone who has dropped out has done so because of no drops. i do believe that a certain percentage has and we have statements from club reps to back those statements up.
i don't recall anyone posting 'everyone is leaving because of drops' type of crazyness.