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Hood
2007.11.15, 01:44 PM
Anyone else want to know what is under the hood?

I have started to work on my AWD, but would really like to know what hopups and modifications you have found to work best..

Thanks,
Hood

onrailz
2007.11.16, 07:48 AM
Anyone else want to know what is under the hood?

I have started to work on my AWD, but would really like to know what hopups and modifications you have found to work best..

Thanks,
Hood

Are you talking about MY personal setup or just how to dial in an 010 in general?

I've been meaning to do a breakdown on my setup and dial in procedures on the forums for a while now but I don't know if thats what you want here.

Hood
2007.11.16, 10:29 AM
Yes, and Yes..

I think we would all like to know what you have added to the stock AWD chassis to make it handle and run as well as you do. To get some sort of tutorial on how to dial in, would be icing on the cake.

I was going to send you a personal email on this topic, but your emails from the forum are disabled. I thought I would try this route..

We are starting an AWD class in our local AZGT series, and everyone is now scrambling to try to get theirs to work. Dusty, Brad, Derek, Eric, Bill and I all have AWDs, but I believe Derek is the only one that has run his in a HFAY or our local series.. We are still struggling to get them as fast as our 2WD cars and to avoid the highspeed bicycle or roll-over..

Thanks for any info you are willing to give out,
Hood

onrailz
2007.11.16, 02:47 PM
Ok, you asked for it! Here we go-
I'll post pics of my exact car/parts setup on this thread over the weekend when I have more time.

For now I'll break this down into steps as if I just picked up a lightly used car and want to get it ready for racing.

Step 1 Teardown.
Take it all apart. Examine and clean everything as you go. Not nec to go all the way down to the servo (unless you plan to install a new chassis, this would be a good time) but you need to get all of the drivetrain components out of the car. Take every bearing out and throw them in your favorite cleaning jar (PN makes a nice one) and start soaking them in motor spray. Shake em from time to time. Make sure your car does HAVE bearings everywhere... the first round of kits only had bearings on the diffs!

Step 2 Re-build.
These first few steps are super critical for the 010 to be competitive- let me explain why. The 010 uses the same 3010 fets, motor and batteries that are used in the 02 chassis yet the 010 weighs more, has a worse CG and higher resistance drivetrain. You can't (HFAY legally) do much about the weight or CG but you CAN maximize the efficiency of the drivetrain. And this is how-
Give the bearings one last shake and lay them out on a towel. Blot them and let them air dry for a bit then hit em with a single drop each of really light bearing oil like Trinity's royal oil. Roll each one by hand by sticking them on a bearing holder/installation tool: http://shop.tinyrc.com/product.php?productid=18428&cat=299&page=1
and feel for any grittiness or high resistance. Replace as nec.
Install the main shaft bearings and slide the main shaft through. Cap it off by pressing the front pinion on. Make sure there is just a tiny bit of play so you don't bind up the main shaft. Now, attach the rear LOWER bulkhead/diff holder piece. Slide the large bearings over the diffs and set them in place in each bulkhead. Put your finger on either one of the diffs and spin the complete drivetrain. How is it? This needs to be SUPER free. It's gotta keep spinning for at least a second or two after your finger leaves the diff gear. If it isn't then start playing my favorite game "find the resistance"! Try to narrow it down using one by one elimination steps. Like, take the front diff out and just roll the rear diff/main shaft assy. Better? If not, do the opposite. Find the resistance and eliminate it. These steps are the highest in tediousness as well as reward so take some time and be anal about it.

Those are the first two steps. Shall I go on? Is that helpful for anyone? If so, I'll continue with the next steps this weekend.

Hood
2007.11.17, 09:06 AM
Very helpfull.. Please keep it coming..

I am running the Kyosho bearings and I know that my drivetrain doens't spin that free, so I guess I know what I will be doing tonight.. Playing find the resistance game..

Are you using an upgraded center shaft? Are you using the PN aluminum bearing holders?

Thanks again,
Hood

Dusty Weasle
2007.11.18, 02:28 AM
I'm reading this too. I have to get my Vauxhall AWD ready for our ATM series.

Hood
2007.11.18, 10:37 AM
I did some work on mine, and it without the motor installed, it would only roll for ~6 inches on my counter. I worked on my bearings and it will now roll the 8ft and hit the other end of the trailer.. I think I still need new diff bearings and or diff gears to make it spin any better than it is now.. My car spins much better now, I am ready to hear more..

Thanks again.

onrailz
2007.11.18, 03:47 PM
Great, glad this is helpful for you guys.

Alright, once the drivetrain is as free as possible, continue to put the car back together. Make sure to check the drivetrain resistance as you go. Bolting down the diff top covers are also steps that can bind up the works. Once you bolt down the covers it's hard to spin test the drivetrain so this is what you do- Only bolt down the front cover then spin the rear diff like you've been. Still feels good? Sweet. Remove the front cover and bolt on the rear cover. Spin the front diff gear... Good as well? Nice. Now you know that there will be no additional resistance with the covers on.

Hub/wheel building and testing-
Install the inner and outer bearings back into each hub. Put your axles through and bolt a wheel/tire to each one. (Tip: If you are using the kit plastic wheel nuts here, flip them over so that you get the most surface area contacting the wheel. The machined side needs to be used for the 02 chassis cause the nuts directly touch the bearings but on the 010 they don't. The extra surface area will give you better support for the wheels in hard corners) Before installing each one of these hub assemblies back into the car, check how free each one spins first. Take an assembly and hold it so the dogbone hangs down. Lightly holding the hub w/ pliers makes this a bit easier. It's hard to hold the hub w/ your fingers and not touch the tire. Give the tire a med to light spin (too fast and it will whip the dogbone out and hit part of the hub or something) and just look for 2-3 seconds of free roll. If you don't have that then try pulling out and pushing in on the wheel to make sure the bearings are fully seated. If you have to back off the wheel nut a bit to get it to spin free enough then something still isn't right. There could be a bad bearing still. Once all is well, install these 4 assemblies into the car. Pick the car up as a whole and spin the completed drivetrain by spinning both back wheels. Should still have that 2-3 second roll to it! On the table it should roll like a matchbox car!

Now you've got a racecar where the benefits of AWD aren't a total wash against the inefficiency of the drivetrain. This is a must to compete against 02 cars with the 010 chassis.

The next steps will be setup. I'll get into that early this week. Just get your cars free first!

Dusty Weasle
2007.11.25, 04:20 AM
I went hunting the resistance and found two rough bearings, one in a wheel and one on the center shaft. I was rushed and didn't get to roll test without the motor attached, but the individual parts spun freely.

I also cleaned everything out and rebuilt the one ball diff. Everything moves smoothly and meshes cleanly.

Not to drift off OLPS setup topic, but here's where I'm at (This car is for our local large track AWD series).
In today's race the car performed moderate to poorly:

Vauxhall body (*see weight below)
Speedy05 geared 19/27 (Alum)
Ti shaft
PN Carbon/Aluminum front and rear pods
Front ----------
3Racing diff (28 tooth)
Kyosho 40deg slicks (N)
PN green springs (soft)
PN 1deg Knuckles
0deg Toe
Rear ----------
Stock diff (28 tooth)
Kyosho 30deg slicks (N)
PN red springs (softest)
PN 1deg Knuckles
3deg Toe-In (Alum)

The odd diff situation is temporary. I should have two Atomic Composite diffs shortly to replace those. *To help prevent rolling I affixed a 5gram lead weight inside the body shell on both sides at the lowest point and near the CG. It helped, only rolled a few times.

I had been running 40deg tires all-around to reduce traction roll and get a nice slide to the car. That worked reasonably well, but on race day the back spun a bit much so putting 30deg's rear settled it out. The car was a little sluggish on our large layout (see Nessie layout in our Phoenix sub-forum). It seemed to plow when slowing from the high-speed straight into Turn 1 (McRae), but could over-steer in the slow sections.
(Today's edit: Thinking back it was mostly good through the slow sections, could even be a tick tight. Over-steers were probably me learning the track).

I bumped the tires down a notch to 30deg front and 20deg rear. That result was like driving on ice. The car over-steered badly and traction rolled on the rare occasion I could get it up to speed.

In the past I have tried stiffer springs and rear toe combinations but they all had moderate to severe wheel chatter. Softer tires than 40deg result in traction rolling.

Hood
2007.11.26, 01:24 PM
I thought the car ran pretty well, but after looking at laptimes and comparing to my 02 car. It ran very well.. I went back through the Main Events to see that my AWD car ran my fastest 2 laps of the day, and finished 6.7 seconds infront of the 2WD car after 10 minutes.

Both cars were running the HFAY motor in them..

My setup is:

Kyosho Bearings, Ti Center Shaft, PN Aluminum Center Shaft Holders, PN Aluminum Motor Heatsink and Plates, PN Aluminum Pinions, Kysoho Machined Spur, Audi Body

Front:
1.25 PN Knuckles
White PN Springs
PN Pro Upper Cover
Stock Gear Diff - soon to be another Atomic Ball Diff
3 .2mm shims under knuckles
Kyosho High Grip 30s
+1.5N Kyosho Wheels

Rear:
Stock Knuckles, Stock Toe
White PN Springs
Atomic Ball Diff
PN RCP 10s
+1W Kyosho Wheels

Forgot to mention gearing was 15/31 with the HFAY motor..

My car will still bicycle sometimes in the corner, but I did not see it roll without help during our 15 minute main. I will be adding the Ball Diff to the Front, and some more shims front and rear to see how that effect things.

Anxiously awaiting more setup info..

onrailz
2007.11.28, 12:50 AM
Sorry guys, I took a bit of a break over the turkey holiday. Sounds like you guys seem to have a handle on building a low resistance chassis. Thats good cause it's a really important base to start from.

Ahhh, the all important setup-

Lets start by again looking at the inherent problems we need to overcome with the 010 chassis. The biggest issue we need to get a handle on is CG. Take a look at the examples of bodies you guys are talking about; Vauxhall, Audi DTM etc... You wouldn't race with those bodies on your 02 chassis would you? You run 360M's, Murcis, McLarens and Enzos right? I hope?!?! Well, our 010's already have a CG problem, why add to it? Trust me, I love realism and hate to abandon it. I love the idea of the A4 body on the awd chassis. I have a DTM on my desk at work that I drool over daily. It's beautiful. Problem is we aren't chasing beauty here, we're chasing tenths.

Lets break down the roll problem Dusty ran into- "To help prevent rolling I affixed a 5gram lead weight inside the body shell on both sides at the lowest point and near the CG. It helped, only rolled a few times." -A good idea and I bet that did help but you should never have to do that! You spent all that time freeing up the chassis to help overcome the 010 weight difference but then had to add a weight penalty back on mostly due to the body! I promise you'll never have to use ballast weight again if you complete the rest of these steps!!!

We need to get the 010 footprint as large as we can and then slam it in the weeds. As far as I'm concerned there are only 2 bodies to race the 010 with- Enzo or Murci. Those bodies give the car it's lowest, widest and longest stance possible. This is such a HUGE key to racing the 010.

Now that you've made your choice of those two, you'll see that there are instantly some parts you'll need. Both of those bodies are 98mm long which means you'll need an extension kit. Both bodies will also require the use of a laydown crystal adapter. The Enzo will require some light grinding of the top of the front king pins as well as some thinning of the spot where they would meet the inside of the body. (did I mention slammed in the weeds?!?!)

Getting a bit late, I'll continue tomorrow.

Dusty Weasle
2007.11.28, 02:46 AM
There's one little catch on our bodies. We're using them for our ATM series (AWD Touring Masters) which has a body restriction. They must be Sedans or Hatchbacks. 2dr Sedans must have a back seat in the real car to be legal. No sports or super cars. The Lexus is the lowest, widest we have out there.

The principle still applies though, lowering is a helpful direction to go. For the OLPS Hood has tested his AWD with the Ferrari F50 body with terrific results (I run the Murc and McLaren in the OLPS on MR-02).

But speaking of lowering, on my AWD I have a spacer under the front knuckles, but none on the rear. If I lower the rear at all the car picks up a violent chatter. The change over 1mm is quite surprising.

Hood
2007.11.28, 10:19 AM
What do you think about using a Vette? Not long enough?

I am going to mount mine with an Enzo as that is my car of choice anyways. I obviously can't run this in our ATM series, but am starting to see that this chassis might be the one to use in our HFAY races in the near future.

I did make the Audi as low as possible, and it had the widest footprint that I could find in a legal car. I have been running 1.5N/1W on it, can you give us an idea of which body you are running and what offsets you have choosen?

Also when you slammed your body, can you let us know how many shims where or how you did your lowering..

Thanks again,
Robin

hrdrvr
2007.11.28, 10:44 AM
^ I couldnt get a vette to fit on the AWD because of the low front end. I would have to remove the PCB cover, and possibly take the dremel over to the battery side as well. It was essentially the same problems I had with the supra bodies, and the s2k (which I saw some one with one mounted, even though I coudlnt). The vette actually fits better than the supra, but the front end rides to high for my liking.

onrailz
2007.11.28, 02:33 PM
Oh, I thought you guys were gearing up to run your 010's in the HFAY series where any body goes. Even so- if you have to stick to a specific list of bodies, pick one with the lowest widest stance. Forget about looks. Some bodies that are pretty low like the corvette and SLR would be pretty good choices but have a tough time fitting on the 010 due to their long hoods as Hrdrvr pointed out above.

Will continue further setup tech tonight. Stay tuned.

onrailz
2007.12.03, 01:33 AM
Ok, sorry once again for the delay.

I know I've been a bit long winded about these steps so far but I feel that just giving you all my setup details wouldn't really do much. I've personally tried putting other people's setup on my car in lots of different forms of R/C racing and had pretty lame results. I'm trying to avoid that by starting with a "from scratch" build up and discussing theory as I go.

The final 010 setup theory I'm going to get into before the added parts details is dialing in the right amount of traction. I think what people don't see is just how easy it is to give the 010 TOO much traction. Just because the car isn't spinning out doesn't mean it has an ideal setup. Remember, this car needs to compete with the ultra free 02 chassis! What we're chasing here is a car with a balance of road holding capability without scrubbing speed due to being overstuck. Any traction over what we really need to get around the track will just add resistance. Resistance that leads to motor heat, lower top speeds and higher lap times. The 010 needs to be right on the edge of needed traction to compete with even a decently setup 02. Here is how I go about that-

Note: The following detailed setup is tuned for rubber tire on RCP with the S4 motor.

Diffs-
I'm using Atomic's composite diffs front and rear. We need to keep the rotating mass down everywhere we can and this is a perfect place to do it. The composite diffs are durable, light and have lasted many seasons for me already! I run the front diff a bit tighter than the rear which really helps tame the twitchy behavior people complain about with the 010.

Springs-
The stock 010 springs are just plain too tall. Nobody needs that kind of ground clearance. I went with PN's "low down spring set" and "low down shim set" to take up the slack. After some testing I found yellow front and purple rears give the car the best balanced feel. I filled the spring gap UNDER the hubs with one magenta and one blue PN shim per corner. Those took up the slack without giving the springs any preload. This is key because when a spring has preload the car needs to first build up the momentum to overcome that before the suspension can start working. Note: I added the Atomic SAS rear once it came out and will discuss how this changes the setup in a bit.

Smooth suspension operation is a must here too. It's bad enough that there isn't actual dampers on these cars, you've got to make sure the suspension travel isn't "catchy" feeling. Kyosho's Flourine lubricant is AWESOME on the upper and lower kingpins. It goes on wet but dries and leaves behind the lubricant so that it doesn't attract RCP dust. Very cool. Tip: I like to use it on all of the plastic gear to gear contact as well!

Speaking of knuckles-
I like to let tire wear tell me what camber I should be running. When the car goes into a corner it leans pretty hard on the outside wheels. If those wheels are at 0 degrees to start with (stock hubs) then in mid corner they will have gone positive. The ideal is to have hubs that let the tires be flat to the track in mid corner for the most surface area. So, if you watch your tire wear and you don't already have the optimal camber, you will se that the tires are worn either to the inside or outside edge. This is telling you which way to go with camber change. I get the best wear with 1.5's front and rear.

To be continued as usual.

Gigibesi
2007.12.03, 11:44 AM
mind to tell abt wheels offset setting? :)

Endo
2007.12.03, 06:09 PM
mind to tell abt wheels offset setting? :)
He's running Enzo wheels what ever offset they are. Don't know that make thou.

marc
2007.12.26, 11:53 AM
Hi there, I just ordered a ton of silver PN alloy from Kennon for my new Subaru WRX AWD. I got 1.0 knuckle arms front and rear, a 0.5 toe-in rear bar, 0 front tie-rod, ball bearings, speedy motor, and a few other goodies. I'm leaving the differentials and driveshafts stock for now. And of coarse, the front and rear upper cover's and the lower gear box cover with CF. All silver alloy from PN.
Anything else I should add?

Hood
2008.06.02, 11:37 PM
I had a servo failure and then a chassis failure during qualifying for our final race of Season 5 HFAY. So, I was forced to break out the AWD in the B Main , and in the CC Direction..

I ran the B Main at 93 laps and beat out two of the A Main cars for the Main Event Times..

Then backed it up with another 93 in the A for Counter Clockwise..

I believe it was 4-5 overall for the two races, best finish this season..

Thanks for your help, and good info on tuning.. I am still working on it, but it keeps getting better..

Hood

Programmers
2008.06.03, 03:02 AM
Bookmarked! Very interesting - thanks for sharing. :)