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hrdrvr
2007.12.28, 12:47 PM
I got a helios for christmas this year. A couple of guys I race with allready had them too. The descriptions for the options arent very clear in the manual though, and we arent sure what everything does.

Can some one break down for me what each setting actual does? I understand highpoint, and curve, but there are way too many options :lol: If I can get a description I think I can figure out how benficial each setting is, but if you care to describe how you use each feature, that would be good too.

TIA!

ruf
2007.12.28, 01:16 PM
The Helios manual is pretty huge... There is a setting called "System Level" that sets the number of adjustments available in the menu, and I would start that at 2. Level 1 is a little too simple. System Level 3 is good for advanced users, and System Level 4 is pretty much only for nitro cars where you want to play with curves to flatten out the carb response and mess with stuff like ABS with real disk brakes. I personally run a flat, linear throttle curve, no expo, no nothing. High point and brake at 70 seems to be the sweet spot for most Mini-Z boards.

One of the biggest benefits are the steering adjustments. Make sure the Steering Subtrim is set to 0 and then dial in the adjustment screw on the Mini-Z board to center your steering. I like to make most of my adjustments in Subtrim since it doesn't effect the steering endpoints as much. If you don't feel like fiddling with your board, you can dial in the primary center with this setting. Trackside, you can use the top electrim button to bump the steering trim a little here and there. I try to keep the electrim values in single digits so as not to effect the endpoints and therefore the steering balance.

You should also trim the steering balance quickly by holding the steering wheel left or right while using the same top electrim button. The car should turn the same slow circles left to right, about 1-2' in diameter depending your track and driving style. With the steering balanced at slow speed, if your car is acting tweaked at race speeds, then you know that it's a dynamic problem with the chassis or suspension settings, and not just a simple steering balance problem. That being said, the steering balance can be a quick last-ditch way to adjust a misbehaving car right before the race starts, but shouldn't be used as a permanent fix.

Of course, set your dual rate via the thumbwheel to your track and personal driving style. You want just enough steering to make the tightest corner on the track at race pace, and maybe just a little more, but not so much that the car is twitchy. IMO, too many Mini-Z racers set up their cars to be twitchy in the effort to make them feel "responsive", but they end up being a nightmare to drive over the course of a race distance. A fast car should feel settled, composed, yet connected to the driver.

Hope this helps. I'm out of town right now and I'm doing this from memory, so sorry for the lack of detail. If you have any specific questions about settings, post them here, and we'll try to address them. The Helios is an awesome radio, so good luck with it! :D

Felix2010
2007.12.30, 05:39 PM
You should also trim the steering balance quickly by holding the steering wheel left or right while using the same top electrim button. The car should turn the same slow circles left to right, about 1-2' in diameter depending your track and driving style. With the steering balanced at slow speed, if your car is acting tweaked at race speeds, then you know that it's a dynamic problem with the chassis or suspension settings, and not just a simple steering balance problem. That being said, the steering balance can be a quick last-ditch way to adjust a misbehaving car right before the race starts, but shouldn't be used as a permanent fix.

Of course, set your dual rate via the thumbwheel to your track and personal driving style. You want just enough steering to make the tightest corner on the track at race pace, and maybe just a little more, but not so much that the car is twitchy. IMO, too many Mini-Z racers set up their cars to be twitchy in the effort to make them feel "responsive", but they end up being a nightmare to drive over the course of a race distance. A fast car should feel settled, composed, yet connected to the driver.


Hrdrvr, I have had my Helios for 9 months or so and I still need help in understanding certain things and Tx terminology. I agree that the translation of the Helios' manual leaves much to be desired and I basically made most of my progress from trial-and-error. I hope it's OK of me to ask Ruf a couple questions here.
Mini-Zs are the only R/C cars with which I have experience, and the EX-10 Helios is the first (And only) high-end radio I have used.
Ruf - One of the first things I noticed with the Helios is the steering on my cars, especially my AD cars, didn't use the full travel. I noticed that there is a "Steering Travel" adjustment on the Helios, but I also noticed that the "Steering Balance" default values are only 70 for both left and right. By increasing the "Steering Balance" values up to 90-100 I got the full lock-to-lock steering travel from left to right. Is there a reason the "Steering-Balance" values are default set at 70? Is this an OK way to get the full steering travel, or should I leave the "Steering Balance " values set at 70 and increase the "Steering Travel" value? (Travel will probably need to be set much higher than the 100 default setting to get full travel).
One thing I don't understand is what exactly "Dual-Rate" is? Is this the "Steering Speed" adjustment that people are referring to when they say "Steering Dual-Rate"? Setting up "Dual-Rate" properly and achieving as you said, " just enough steering to make the tightest corner on the track at race pace, and maybe just a little more, but not so much that the car is twitchy" is what I'd like to learn how to do. Could you give instructions on how to do this please?
Thank you for the help Ruf. :D

hrdrvr
2007.12.30, 06:09 PM
I think dual rate is the distance the servo moves the wheels. I used the travel function to get more lock to lock movement (ie adjust the dual rate). Ive only used the balance to get one car, that had uneven steering, corrected. It tracked straight but turned slitghly more to the left than right. The tightest turn on our track is a right, so I adjusted it up to 80, while leaving the left at 70. Adjusting the travel up to about 120 got this car turning tight enough to make all turns without making the steering too sensetive.

CristianTabush
2007.12.30, 10:33 PM
When setting you cars up initially, set up your dual rate at 100 (max). The balance is used to set your throw. Tun your wheel full lock and adjust whatever number the servo starts buzzing ( you will understand when you do this) Once you get to this point, decrease it by one click. Do this for left and right.

Now you car should steel entirely linear in relationship to the steering wheel on your radio and since your dual rate is at max, it will have full travel. The next thing is to adjust this on the track, I usually start at 100% dualrate and decrease it until the point where full lock allows me to make the toughest corner on the track tightly. The dual rate will decrease or increase your steering throw in equal amounts in your car to both sides. Running a car with less dual rate means less steering throw, which translates into less wheel scrub, which in turn provides more corner speed. I usually like to set-up my cars where I run around 90% dual rate on the car. Seems to be a good balance.

lfisminiz
2007.12.31, 12:33 AM
Excellent explanation by all. ;)

Aurora
2008.01.01, 09:38 PM
Totally agree with Cristian on setting up the steering w/ Helios.

It is probably a personal preference thing--though in regards to adjusting the turning rate to suit the track, I would suggest to keep it as is, unless it is totally unmanageable. The reasons being when there are accidents on track, a responsive car will be able to wave out of traffic much easier than a wide-turning car.

I guess there are probably pros and cons for choosing/using 100% dual rate vs lesser dual rate--where lesser dual rate will probably allow driver to pick finer driving lines, but probably more difficult to deal with aggressive and continuous S curves or hairpins, since driver has to turn more on the steering wheel.

Full dual rate is probably more apt for tracks with aggressive turns, but the steering wheel is sensitive to inputs, so driver might have a harder time to drive in the optimal driving lines.

ruf
2008.01.01, 10:25 PM
Ruf - One of the first things I noticed with the Helios is the steering on my cars, especially my AD cars, didn't use the full travel. I noticed that there is a "Steering Travel" adjustment on the Helios, but I also noticed that the "Steering Balance" default values are only 70 for both left and right. By increasing the "Steering Balance" values up to 90-100 I got the full lock-to-lock steering travel from left to right. Is there a reason the "Steering-Balance" values are default set at 70? Is this an OK way to get the full steering travel, or should I leave the "Steering Balance " values set at 70 and increase the "Steering Travel" value? (Travel will probably need to be set much higher than the 100 default setting to get full travel).
One thing I don't understand is what exactly "Dual-Rate" is? Is this the "Steering Speed" adjustment that people are referring to when they say "Steering Dual-Rate"? Setting up "Dual-Rate" properly and achieving as you said, " just enough steering to make the tightest corner on the track at race pace, and maybe just a little more, but not so much that the car is twitchy" is what I'd like to learn how to do. Could you give instructions on how to do this please?Dual-Rate is the thumbwheel/Electrim. Think of it as an easily accessible way to quickly adjust the overall available percentage of your Steering Travel. I usually set my Steering Travel at about 115-120 to get full lock on the wheels at 100% Dual Rate. Then I dial back the Dual Rate to something reasonable for the track. I find that a turning radius about 1.5-2' usually does the trick, but I tend to run on pretty big tracks and use a lot of rear steering.

At this point, the Steering Balances should both still be at 70%. The reason they default at 70% is so that you have room to turn them up or down. I do the left and right circles to make sure that the steering is balanced via the Steering Balance. There is a menu for this, but it's easier to just hold the wheel left or right and use the top Electrim.

Think of Steering Travel as your primary setting. The Dual-Rate is a percentage setting on top of that. The Steering Balance is also a percentage setting on top of that for Left and Right. As you can see, each one effects the final outcome, which is why I like to set the Steering Travel for maximum throw at 100% Dual-Rate a leave it alone. Then dial down the Dual-Rate to get in the ballpark, and then adjust Steering Balance to fine tune for Left and Right balance. Finally, I'll use Dual-Rate to verify that your settings work on the track at race pace, and also to adjust during the race as the car can sometimes change as the tires wear or come up to temperature.

ruf
2008.01.01, 10:31 PM
The tightest turn on our track is a right, so I adjusted it up to 80, while leaving the left at 70.I try to stay away from using Steering Balance unevenly to adjust for a single turn. The reason is that I like my car to act consistently left to right. The amount of adjustment you're talking about isn't a big deal, but don't take it too far. In the event I have to make a quick steering correction on the track (turning in too early or accident avoidance), you don't want turn quickly to the right and recover slowly to the left or vice versa.

hrdrvr
2008.01.02, 11:39 AM
I try to stay away from using Steering Balance unevenly to adjust for a single turn. The reason is that I like my car to act consistently left to right. The amount of adjustment you're talking about isn't a big deal, but don't take it too far. In the event I have to make a quick steering correction on the track (turning in too early or accident avoidance), you don't want turn quickly to the right and recover slowly to the left or vice versa.


If you read the sentance before the one quoted....:D

It tracked straight but turned slitghly more to the left than right. The tightest turn on our track is a right, so I adjusted it up to 80, while leaving the left at 70.

....I only adjusted the right turn up to 80 to get even steering left and right. For some reason this car has always (bought new) had the problem of turning sharper left. Otherwise, I agree with what you are stating. I like the car to track straight, as well as turn evenly in both directions, no matter the layout or direction we are running. I guess I should have left the part out about the tight right turn :D

Thanks for all the info and opinions. Ill get more specefic questions about specific features up real soon.

ruf
2008.01.02, 11:47 AM
Oops. I don't read too good. :D

Felix2010
2008.01.02, 07:59 PM
ruf, thank you for clarifying the "travel", "dual-rate", and "steering balance" as it relates to the EX-10 Helios. Excellent job, very helpful! :D

2EZ
2008.01.04, 09:11 AM
This is great I also have the HELOS and am trying to learn how to get the best out of it.
I race with hrdrvr both his dad and I had the radio before him and are depending on his faster learning curve to help us.
The instructions don't make things as clear as you guys do, real world applications are what I need thanks.

on a side RUF and Christian I plan to be in Houston Jan 18th to the 21th I will be busy but hope to make a little time to visit Houston's Mini z shops Hopefully to met you guys and bring some items back for me and my pals here in Myrtle Beach. (My son lives in Baytown) :)

2EZ
2008.01.04, 09:13 AM
I know Atomicmods has an address RUF does your shop?

ruf
2008.01.04, 03:03 PM
Sorry 2EZ, at this point we are direct mail order only and we aren't set up for a storefront. Please send me an email at contact@reflexracing.net and I will see if we can arrange something for you. :D

lsarccc
2008.01.05, 10:03 AM
I've found it's a good idea to reduce the trim rate on the KO transmitters. Usually it's set to 10, I'd recommend lowering the setting. I change it to 3 but that's on the Vantage2 so your mileage may vary on the Helios.

The benefit of this is much finer trim control, the disadvantage is a reduced range of the trim control - however I've never found this an issue especially if you can centre the steering properly on the board.

edit - oh and the steering curve is one to play with and see if it suits you. I'd recommend setting the steering dual rate to the maximum steering you actually need; not just for racing round the track through clean lines but for those moments when stuff happens on the track and you need to take avoiding action. This might leave the car a little too twitchy to drive smoothly, that's where steering curve comes in - dial in negative curve to make the car driveable but leaving the full lock there and available for those awkward moments :)

CristianTabush
2008.01.05, 10:40 AM
Isarccc, not trying to discredit your findings, but there are several reasons why I don't recommend using steering curves.

Using steering curves is a crutch for a handling problem. If a car is too twitchy, then fix your set-up, not your radio curves. Everything should be kept as linear as possible. You can have a ton of dual rate and your car still be stable. Remember, dual rate increases your steering travel, it should not be used to adjust your steering sensitivity but rather amount of steering. If you want a more sensitive front end, simply use a softer front spring.

At slow speeds, when you would need to say turn around in a tight space,a balanced, relatively low mechanical front grip set up (harder spring for example) won't keep you from turning around in a tight circle, but then once at speed, your car should be stable enough to where it should not be super twitchy. This just makes for a harder car to drive, which equals more mistakes.

lsarccc
2008.01.05, 11:12 AM
Yeah I don't disagree - that's a very pure approach and I think it's what we should aspire to, but in reality steering curve is a valid crutch that does suit a lot of people. I tend to run 1/12th pan cars with -20%, but 1/10th touring I tend to not use it.

I think there's two parts to this, driving ability and car setup...

If you are a young good driver you easily forget that some have lesser reactions and acuity in the movement of their hand controlling the car - as you get older or if you are new, using curve can act to flatten the steering and make the car easier to drive not just in corners but on the straights, easy means less mistakes and faster. This being easier to drive and make small controlled changes helps newcomers and the less skilled regardless of how well/badly the car is set up.

So yes if I was an expert driver and setter up of cars and I was always racing on track surfaces that I am experienced on with a pit box with every setup item in it (like you?) then steering curve would never get used because the car would have a balanced handling setup and my skills would allow me to drive the car without resorting to the curve as a crutch. Unfortunately - I never find myself in that position :)

So as an example if you are racing and you feel that going to harder front tyres would help but you don't have them in your box try a bit of negative curve to take the edge of the steering out (this advice not aimed at you Cristian!)


More technically - the linearity argument about steering is incorrect? Surely with our cars poor Ackermann compromise, different tyres with different slip angles, simple post suspension with static camber and static caster - the idea of Mini-Z steering being linear with transmitter movement is nonsense anyway. Infact the drivers perception is interpreted by the brain to provide a 'linear' movement of the steering control? An experienced driver has this advantage over a less practiced driver.

I say use the steering curve if it suits you it's definitely a taste thing, as you say it's just a crutch. :)

edit - spelt Cristians name wrong - sorry

lsarccc
2008.01.05, 12:01 PM
Also, if we are talking about the linearity of the movement of the steering servo and knuckles...

Then unless the servo control has a curve built in, the only way to make the steering servo that is moving in an arc pushing on knuckle arms which also move in arcs (- so more movement per degree of servo rotation in the center than the extremes) is to use negative curve. Without that the standard steering setup always operates on a positive curve?

Nightcargo
2008.01.25, 10:41 AM
I must be out to lunch on this but I can't find where Dual Rate is on my Helios. Nothing in the manual. The search on this web site just informs how to set it.

Is it in a submenu somewhere?

Thanks!

CristianTabush
2008.01.25, 11:10 AM
Dual rate is usually set up by default on the wheel on top of where your left thumb rests when holding the radio. Some radios have a click button, but I believe the helios has the thumb wheel.

Felix2010
2008.01.25, 11:35 AM
^Exactly. It should be ET4 by default. It will display your ST TRAVEL setup number and below it is the Dual-Rate %.

ruf
2008.01.25, 10:52 PM
Helios has a 2-way click button for the Dual Rate. It's the ET4 "Electrim".

ub0211042
2008.01.26, 02:43 AM
how about auto start? it works like a launch control which helps ur car to jump when the lights turn green.

Nightcargo
2008.01.26, 09:11 AM
Alright. I hit the ET4 button. Helios displays:

Auto Display
ET4-Travel
150
100

So that is Dual Rate?

And you guys suggest 100 and adjust the bottom number to about 90 or what ever is necessary?

Thanks for all of the help and sorry for all of the questions but I can't find any of this through my searches!

Felix2010
2008.01.27, 12:19 AM
Alright. I hit the ET4 button. Helios displays:

Auto Display
ET4-Travel
150
100

So that is Dual Rate?

And you guys suggest 100 and adjust the bottom number to about 90 or what ever is necessary?

Thanks for all of the help and sorry for all of the questions but I can't find any of this through my searches!

The top number, 150 in this case, is what you have your ST TRAVEL set at. 150 is too high. Try Ruf's suggestion at the beginning of this thread, I think he said to set the ST TRAVEL at 115-120 or so.
The bottom number is the Dual-Rate, in this case, the Dual-Rate is set at 100%. Once you have the Travel adjusted so you have full lock-to-lock Travel, use the Dual-Rate to adjust the percentage of Travel (Dual-Rate) for a specific track. I forgot but I think some guys gave recommendations for what they like their Dual-rate set at.

hrdrvr
2008.01.27, 11:20 AM
Thanks for all of the help and sorry for all of the questions but I can't find any of this through my searches!

Thats exactly why I started this thread, so dont be sorry :D

Nightcargo
2008.01.27, 08:57 PM
Thanks guys!!

cowboysir
2011.07.09, 02:34 PM
bringing back this topic because it's been helpful to build me up some steering info...just picked up a couple helios and a JR Z-1 for my loaner ASF cars. Since these radios are so cheap second hand (got 3 radios for the price of 1 1/2:eek:) I thought some people like myself would be finding cheap ways to improve their ASF experience...

I'm curious to find any throttle setup tips for "stock" motor installations 9if any) My field of loaner cars either runs a PN70t or speedy07/atomic standard motors.

Advice would be much appreiciated.

EMU
2011.07.09, 03:12 PM
What I typically do with 70t motors, is increase throttle curve. I usually run about a +50 throttle curve, which gives less throttle input to get up to speed, and more control when up to speed. Without positive throttle curve, I feel like if I barely come off the throttle, the car slows down too much. Depending on the layout, I may use punch in the place of curve. More technical/slower tracks, I use less curve. Higher speed tracks, more curve since you slow down less and want to reduce the amount that you slow coming off throttle as you enter the corners.

I also adjust the trim rate to either 5 or 3 from the default of 10. This gives higher precision to the trim adjustments, which I use to adjust drag brake effect.

color01
2011.07.09, 05:40 PM
Everyone is different in that regard. :p I run my 70t motors flat, no curve, no manual drag brake. That way I almost never have to lift off the trigger entirely -- only for the tightest hairpins. EMU hates it, I hate his method. :p

EMU
2011.07.09, 07:28 PM
Everyone is different in that regard. :p I run my 70t motors flat, no curve, no manual drag brake. That way I almost never have to lift off the trigger entirely -- only for the tightest hairpins. EMU hates it, I hate his method. :pDifferent strokes for different folks :D I used to use no curve at all for a long time. After running strictly modified classes for a while, I found that using the curve, kept my throttle let off points for the corners could be more similar, therefore I did not have to adjust for what motor I was driving as much. I also noted more consistency and better average laps as I wasnt transferring as much weight as I entered the corners since I was letting off less than I would without the curve on turn in.

I suggest that you try a few different settings, and see what you and your buddies like.

cowboysir
2011.07.09, 08:42 PM
Thanks EMU. I'll be doing a setup day tomorrow for all the helios controllers so I'll try your throttle curve idea and post back with my results.;)

cowboysir
2011.07.10, 09:05 PM
Just wanted to mention thanks to both EMU, ruf and Cristian for their excellent info...all three cars now have solid steering and throttle baselines to work with for my upcoming mini-z race with the vancouver crew.;)