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wingbeat
2008.01.04, 08:20 PM
1. I purchased the TGR servo. The holes aren't lining up in the servo mounts.
Before I re-drill the servo tabs, I thought I'd check to make sure that it is fitting in properly. Is the body of the servo even with the bottom of the main chassis? The holes in the aluminum servo mount are about a hole width lower than the holes in the servo mount tabs.

2. Apparently I have a new differential from TGR I think made by 3 Racing. Is there an exploded drawing that might show the proper sequence of spacers and washers?

thanks- probably more questions as it progresses.

wes
2008.01.04, 08:40 PM
To answer your first question, my tgr servo and mounts were completely off. I had to cut out parts of the servo ears to make it sit right. The mounting holes on the aluminum servo mounts were higher on one side than the other :( this made the servo sit on an angle...

Ancient Artist
2008.01.05, 01:47 AM
...I am experiencing the same issue with two cars actually. Looks like a great car but there do seem to be some issues with the front end and setting up the servo.
It's a bit disappointing to think that when you purchase a servo put out by the manufacturer (though it is out sourced of course) that it wouldn't fit better. There is a small tutorial on the TGR website on the installation, but that doesn't excuse the issue with the holes just being drilled wrong. I still have high expectations for this car, but be careful never to run this car (even for a quick test) without a body. We stripped the servo gears in both cars in less than 5 minutes.
I admit (out of anxiousness) it may have been sloppy judgment on our parts to test 'em out that way; but Iíve done it hundreds of times with other cars and never had an issue. Sorry, but thatís pretty weak in my book. I've been racing for over 18 yrs (some sponsored by high level manufacturers), and ran just about everything somewhere along the way, and I don't think I ever experienced that before.
I could be missing something but I donít feel very confident in the support for these cars right now either. It's still new, so hopefully there will be more background coming for this car soon. My speculation is that I don't think anyone has been running it long enough (at least in the States) to thoroughly articulate troubleshooting the car yet with good answers.
Weíll see, and can only hope! (if not can you say SSSSssserpent ?)
:confused:

wingbeat
2008.01.05, 12:32 PM
thanks all.

the answer is in the website FAQ's- servo tabs need trimming.

wingbeat
2008.01.06, 01:22 PM
o.k.- a little closer. The website guide is very good for servo install, but fit isn't up to par. I trimmed tabs, but now the aluminum servo blocks are a bit splayed. I'll have to possibly sand down servo case and ream holes a bit.

Anyway-
Problem and question 3 for TGR:

3. With the servo mounted, front end assembled, and steering linkage in place the servo arm is too far back for the rod end that acts as a connector to the steering linkage. I either need to make a custom servo arm that would extend further toward the front of the Sinister, or trim the rod end down.

I don't understand how this steering mechanism doesn't interfere with the front suspension. When the servo arm rotates right left, it is also moving the steering linkage up and down. My guess is the solution is to leave the steering linkage slightly loose to allow for that play. But as the servo arm rotates on a single plane, the steering linkage needs to not only move up and down, but back and forth along the horizontal plane. How is it possible to allow for that movement? If that movement isn't allowed for the suspension will be fighting the tension on the steering linkage in the horizontal plane even when the linkage is left with a bit of play vertically.
Perhaps some are using a servo arm with a bit of flex in it?

thanks- as you can tell, I'm picky and want to get the most out of this investment!

Wolf
2008.01.07, 11:30 AM
Dear All,

Problems and questions that you are having about steering are almost correct in every aspect. On the other hand I'd like to explain some design issues.

Sinister is a car which is focused 1/28 scale racing and targeted consumers from current racers. As a result we tried to maintain the design so that all racers could keep their investments as much as they can. Huge investment of current racers goes to;
- Ballbearing
- Balldiff
- Aluminum Knuckles

Our main problem is knuckles. If it would be possible for the first design, we would throw away those knuckles and start from scratch. However life is not so simple. While keeping current knuckles we tried to minimize freeplay on the front end and ended up with a really rigid front end with the cost of a torsion on the link and horn. But this torsion can be eliminated or reduced by
- Not overtightening the screw which connects servo horn and eyelet and enlarging the hole on the servo horn. This way your linkage will not always be horizontal to the ground
- Checking EPA from the TX
- Not lowering frontend more than needed. Raised knuckle may cause limited travel.


What we have done recently is; we've released our own knuckles which are compatible with MR02 but also they have option to use ball links, which reduces the stress alot. Not to mention you can select your own offset withouth changing your wheel.

Last but not the least; we frankly appreciate your feedbacks. Moreover there is nothing better than a customer who is picky and sincerely posting his/her comments on our products. This the best way to improvement.

Note;
- Never use your car without a hard body or a bumper. Just remember the reason why there are aluminum servo gears and aluminum servosavers even for MR01,MR02 etc

Regards

Ancient Artist
2008.01.08, 12:51 PM
Dear All,

Problems and questions that you are having about steering are almost correct in every aspect. On the other hand I'd like to explain some design issues.

Sinister is a car which is focused 1/28 scale racing and targeted consumers from current racers. As a result we tried to maintain the design so that all racers could keep their investments as much as they can. Huge investment of current racers goes to;
- Ballbearing
- Balldiff
- Aluminum Knuckles

Our main problem is knuckles. If it would be possible for the first design, we would throw away those knuckles and start from scratch. However life is not so simple. While keeping current knuckles we tried to minimize freeplay on the front end and ended up with a really rigid front end with the cost of a torsion on the link and horn. But this torsion can be eliminated or reduced by
- Not overtightening the screw which connects servo horn and eyelet and enlarging the hole on the servo horn. This way your linkage will not always be horizontal to the ground
- Checking EPA from the TX
- Not lowering frontend more than needed. Raised knuckle may cause limited travel.


What we have done recently is; we've released our own knuckles which are compatible with MR02 but also they have option to use ball links, which reduces the stress alot. Not to mention you can select your own offset withouth changing your wheel.

Last but not the least; we frankly appreciate your feedbacks. Moreover there is nothing better than a customer who is picky and sincerely posting his/her comments on our products. This the best way to improvement.

Note;
- Never use your car without a hard body or a bumper. Just remember the reason why there are aluminum servo gears and aluminum servosavers even for MR01,MR02 etc

Regards

I appreciate your feedback, and support. I had gone ahead and made the modifications you mentioned, before you posted this so at least I feel good that my thought process is aligned with yours.

As far as the servo goes, that is the reason why they make metal gears, but it's also why they sell replacement gears for the plastic servos as well. If you do not offer them, then do you (or anyone on the board) know of any that will fit? It's not that expensive of a servo, but neither is the HS-55, and they offer replacements on those. (I purchased a set to attempt to use as replacements, but they didn't work properly). For me to purchase two new servos vs. gears is the difference between $8 , and $30. I'm even willing to do an exchange and pay a discounted fee for new ones to at least help in the cost. I bought these cars from Atomic Mods, just a few weeks ago so maybe they can send them back to you or something...anything.

I do like this car and commend the work that you are putting into it
For the record Iím not here to bash you or the company either. I still think itís a good product even if thereís opportunity for improvements (what care doesnít have that?). I think you are setting the standard for the future of 1/28 scale racing, and have a great future, and opportunity going forward.
I'm just a bit disappointed that I would have to purchase two entirely new servos.
Yes, you put together a great package for the car, but these are not included with the kit and are a product you recommend at an additional cost.
Sure being a current racer I have parts laying around such as an HS-55, but at the end of the day, if I can't fix them I've thrown away $30.00.

Thanks again for your feedback, and ANY help from ANYONE would be greatly appreciated.

Davey G
2008.01.08, 01:37 PM
I appreciate your feedback, and support. I had gone ahead and made the modifications you mentioned, before you posted this so at least I feel good that my thought process is aligned with yours.

As far as the servo goes, that is the reason why they make metal gears, but it's also why they sell replacement gears for the plastic servos as well. If you do not offer them, then do you (or anyone on the board) know of any that will fit? It's not that expensive of a servo, but neither is the HS-55, and they offer replacements on those. (I purchased a set to attempt to use as replacements, but they didn't work properly). For me to purchase two new servos vs. gears is the difference between $8 , and $30. I'm even willing to do an exchange and pay a discounted fee for new ones to at least help in the cost. I bought these cars from Atomic Mods, just a few weeks ago so maybe they can send them back to you or something...anything.

I do like this car and commend the work that you are putting into it
For the record Iím not here to bash you or the company either. I still think itís a good product even if thereís opportunity for improvements (what care doesnít have that?). I think you are setting the standard for the future of 1/28 scale racing, and have a great future, and opportunity going forward.
I'm just a bit disappointed that I would have to purchase two entirely new servos.
Yes, you put together a great package for the car, but these are not included with the kit and are a product you recommend at an additional cost.
Sure being a current racer I have parts laying around such as an HS-55, but at the end of the day, if I can't fix them I've thrown away $30.00.

Thanks again for your feedback, and ANY help from ANYONE would be greatly appreciated.

This is the servo that I will be using in my Sinister, the specs are a touch better then the one you are speaking of. Check it out. http://www.bphobbies.com/view.asp?id=V443293&pid=NBB200

ruf
2008.01.08, 02:02 PM
barf. bluebird cirrus etc are not my faves. Their specs are bs in my opinion. So slow. Try a Futaba. Not that expensive, and they run great. If you want to go all out, pick up a KO digital.

Davey G
2008.01.08, 02:27 PM
barf. bluebird cirrus etc are not my faves. Their specs are bs in my opinion. So slow. Try a Futaba. Not that expensive, and they run great. If you want to go all out, pick up a KO digital.

Just giving out other options. The older bluebird analog stuff wasnt all that spectacular....I agree, the new digital stuff has been really good in my 1/10th scale stuff though, so this is what I am basing this off of.

ruf
2008.01.08, 02:43 PM
Cool. Let us know how they run. I'm always open to new developments.

wes
2008.01.08, 02:46 PM
Futaba s3154... a local racer let me try his out and it's a very solid servo. The speed and response of the steering feels like a 1/10 car. It's slightly more expensive, but it's definitely worth it, and you can replace the gears easily.

Wolf
2008.01.09, 04:44 AM
The reason why we are not providing spare gears is the cost of the gears will be almost the same with the servo. Since we are not only manufacturer but also hobbiest and racer, we know how we think about these kind of prices as a consumer.

Our contacts with the manufacturer still continues and we are trying to settle a better aggreement for this issue.

As an additional comment; what we add to our catalog becomes standart in our cars. We don't like to be a company, who releases a product and its options within same month. I guess you understand what we mean. For example from the date new knuckles announced we've shipped all cars with new knuckle system system. This was the same with steering system. It will be same for friction also. We're revising the upper deck for the friction damper and easier battery access. New updated car most probably will have the friction damper as a standart.

PS: And yes. This message implies new updates on the car :) Stay tuned :)

Ancient Artist
2008.01.10, 01:07 AM
Thanks Wolf !
I personally appreciate your efforts. It's easy to forget that it takes time for some of this stuff to be worked out.

JUST GIVE ME THE SHIP DATE FOR ALL THESE NEW GOODIES AND WE'LL CALL IT A DAY ! :D

l8r,
A2

wingbeat
2008.01.12, 12:08 AM
...we've released our own knuckles which are compatible with MR02 but also they have option to use ball links, which reduces the stress alot. ...


Any tips on how to set-up with ball links? Pics anyone?

As I understand a 2mm screw holds the rod on the knuckle. This rod is replaced with a ball with a 2mm threaded post- where can I get this and the corresponding link hardware?

And do you use a double ball on the servo arm or another method?

thanks!

Wolf
2008.01.14, 09:53 AM
@wingbeat
I've found these photos I hope these helps

http://mini-zracer.com/mini-zgallery/data/1252/IMG_2552.gif
http://mini-zracer.com/mini-zgallery/data/1252/IMG_2553.gif
http://mini-zracer.com/mini-zgallery/data/1252/IMG_2554.gif
http://mini-zracer.com/mini-zgallery/data/1252/IMG_2555.gif
http://mini-zracer.com/mini-zgallery/data/1252/IMG_2556.gif

Wolf
2008.01.14, 09:55 AM
@ancient artist
Replacement gears are on the way and will be released within 1-2weeks max with reasonable prices :)

Also you see our new servo in above pictures which has metal internal gears and its digital.

wingbeat
2008.01.14, 10:36 AM
[QUOTE=Wolf]@wingbeat
I've found these photos I hope these helps

Very helpful- thanks Wolf.
Do you know a source for M2 ball studs and links?

thanks again.

mk2kompressor
2008.01.14, 11:50 AM
look up helicopter suppliers for m2 ball joints :)

that servo sounds interesting wolf :D

Ancient Artist
2008.01.14, 01:05 PM
@ancient artist
Replacement gears are on the way and will be released within 1-2weeks max with reasonable prices :)

Also you see our new servo in above pictures which has metal internal gears and its digital.

AWESOME WOLF !!!
:D :D :D :D :D
...as i said before I have high expectations for this car (and by that I meant in performance and product support).You guys are really coming through-QUICKLY !!

Thanks for taking the time to discuss these issues online and keep up the good work !!!

Wolf
2008.01.15, 02:25 AM
Thank you all for your supports.

@wingbeat
As Matt notices you can find those items easily from EP helis. Red plastics inthe picture with offset handles are from a Kyosho rear damper (I guess from F1). Also notice that in this installation upper brace cancelled with securing the kingpin upside down. It is not a highly recomended option since you have limited control over camber and caster and also front ride height should be higher due to nut below the chasis.
However this installation can be done with regular upper braces also

@matt
Yes. It is very interesting, Although the specs on the sheet (ie torque, speed) are almost same with the standart, since its digital it holds same torque at all points so difference is like day and night with this servo.

@ancient artist;
Thanks again for your support. Our advantage is we are also high profile and experienced racers in many scales. And we try to be objective against our products. We know what we are, what we are not, what we want to be and a result we know what to do in next step. And we are trying to do them within our capabilities.

wingbeat
2008.01.15, 11:46 AM
@wingbeat
...
However this installation can be done with regular upper braces also




Wolf-
thanks for the details. How can this system work with the upper brace in place? Any pics of that set-up? It seems that it'd be very difficult to make it fit.

I'm going to look for a servo that isn't as tall so I can move it back and get the servo arm connection out from under the front brace. I suppose I could carve the arms off the TGR servo- I have the analog version. Then I could move it back by putting it in on a slight angle- the back of the servo would sit above the chassis, the ESC could easily be moved, perhaps to the front for better cooling.

MPJ makes both a short and a long ball link hardware for those out there whose LHS carry MPJ. There's also a 1.6mm that may work really well for the servo arm connection. It's through drilled. A ball could be attached to either side of the servo arm if one could move the servo back far enough.
product numbers-
2402- 1.6 short ball links
2406- M2- short ball link
2408- M2- long ball links
0204- M1,6 x 12 X 10 pieces
I'll post my solution when I get there.

fyi- I'm also working on a vac form body option. It's sloped back and will incorporate a wing for down force on the rear tires. Inspiration from these beauties...

Wolf
2008.01.26, 10:11 AM
@ancient artist
Replacement gears arrived to our stock. FYI

pooiswyked
2008.02.09, 03:32 PM
jist got my sinister y/day


i've happy with everything minus the screws. i'm alittle unsure of how new mine is, i got it from atomic, and it's the pro.


no damper, new steering links. the knucles are silver and have the teflon, so i assume they're the new ones? correct me if i'm wrong. i'm going all out for the mod class though with this one, pics after it's done!

Wolf
2008.02.16, 02:32 AM
Yes it is one of the most new cars that we've released.
Unfortunately we not also happy with screws. We've prepared new hex drive screw sets for our cars and will be released shortly.

Hope you'll like the car and let us know about your progress.

stuZ
2008.04.24, 05:54 PM
I just purchased a sinister pro kit from a friend yesterday. He got everything and decided he probably wouldn't build it.
I am doing as much research as possible before I jump in to the build, and this thread is great.
I too commend you Wolf, it's a very beautiful chassis and to see the updates happening is encouraging.
I have been running a spinner in an x-mod for months now, and it totally turned that car into something else. The spinner is also a great product, and I'll probably purchase many more.
anyway, enough flattery and encouragement, here is my question:
Will the spinner support the Atomic Chili motor? Also, which PN motors will it support?
Thanks,
StuZ

mk2kompressor
2008.04.24, 06:18 PM
the spinner is the equivilent of 1.5x 4562 fets,it will work good with the correct gearing:)
there will be a new steering tutorial coming out in the next few days too:)

stuZ
2008.04.27, 03:51 PM
the spinner is the equivilent of 1.5x 4562 fets,it will work good with the correct gearing:)
there will be a new steering tutorial coming out in the next few days too:)

...and just what might be the 'correct' gearing? ;-) a 6 or 7 tooth pinion?
Originally you suggested it would go into 'protect' mode.
Are you speaking from experience or hear-say on this?
I just finished my build, but still I look forward to taking a look at that steering tutorial. Will it be on this site? TGR.com.tr?
Is anyone running a mod PN motor? If so, which one?
Thanks all.

mk2kompressor
2008.04.27, 03:58 PM
7-8 tooth is fine,protect mode will come on if pushed too hard
the chile was way too fast for me:o thats why i went with the stock r
it will be on the tgr homepage soon,for now i have it in pdf format but its too big for me to attach here,i can either email it or you can download it from risingsunracing/forum you will need to join though

tudor_47
2008.04.28, 02:56 AM
stuz,

I have been running with the chili, and if you want to go really fast you need the 9 tooth pinion gear but the Spinner is not upto it...
I ran it and after 5 minutes it stops... I guess it is protect mode that takes over, too bad they did not make it powerfull enough!!

I ran it later that day with nr 7 pinion but then you loose some speed, but it would seam that the chili enjoys it as it revs even more... and I am not sure how much speed you loose. On 7 tooth pinion it is OK, I have yet to try the 8 tooth one.
/johnny

stuZ
2008.04.29, 01:55 AM
the chili (sp) was way too fast for me:o thats why i went with the stock r

I kind of figured the same thing, I'll start out with a speedy 07. I'm hoping an S02 or S03 will work ok, probably so, if the chili does.

I finished my chassis build, but now have to paint and mount my PN Pan Car body.
Does any body have any hints on mounting non-lexan bodies?

tudor_47
2008.04.29, 02:07 AM
Stuz: "Does any body have any hints on mounting non-lexan bodies?"
screw the front clip in, instead of the carbon bumper and use pins in the rear

/Johnny

stuZ
2008.04.29, 02:57 PM
screw the front clip in, instead of the carbon bumper and use pins in the rear

:rolleyes: ...other than the painfully obvious?;)

mk2kompressor
2008.04.30, 11:28 AM
thats the only way stu,ive mounted an old enzo body to one(drilled the holes) to use as a marker body but havent mounted a good one on it yet.
with the clips removed the sides of the enzo almost touch the rear brace so there is some scope to modify and mount another way,not sure with the pn pan body though.
which version do you have,red alloy parts and full topdeck or new one with silver alloy and bdds?

stuZ
2008.04.30, 03:36 PM
hey mk2,
I have the red aluminum, full top deck chassis.

I tried to mount the pn pan car, but the posts go right where the vents are on the top of the body, so you have to drill or cut a little crescent on the top and bottom of the vent. It's do-able, but not just a simple hole.

My first holes were too far forward, so I filled them. I tried again, but it just wasn't right. Now there is too much filler, not enough original plastic, I know it won't hold up to racing on that chassis, I'll just have to put it on an 02.

I'd have to start over on another body, so I might just go lexan.
I wish there were some more lexan bodies available.

mk2kompressor
2008.04.30, 04:43 PM
same as my vds by the sound of it,posts through the air ducts.
i prefer the red parts over the new silver:cool:
the new tgr lexan ones are just about ready(mercedes slr,mclaren f1 and hurda II)
i should have some coming to me soon for testing.
there is a guy on rctech that has made some sweet bodies but its difficult to get hold of him and he is in europe(stockholm)

stuZ
2008.05.01, 02:07 AM
the new tgr lexan ones are just about ready(mercedes slr,mclaren f1 and hurda II) i should have some coming to me soon for testing.


it sounds like it might be a while 'til they're available at web retailers, correct?

mk2kompressor
2008.05.01, 06:13 AM
you can order direct from tgr but we wont be stocking them just yet:)

tudor_47
2008.05.02, 02:22 AM
Hi

try the Parma rental body 01112R it is a montecarlo I guess it is a nascar type of body. the god thing is that it is of 040 lexan and that is, it is almost indestructable.....
Here is a picture of mine ontop of my sinister, during masking, I got it paited last night and pictures are in the planning...
http://biphome.spray.se/ole.elaine/DSC00614_smaller.JPG

other than this you can find a few at: truescale
http://truescaleproducts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=82
/Johnny

stuZ
2008.05.03, 01:05 AM
wow! those are some great bodies at tsp. thanks for that! awesome choices.
I wonder how the wheelbases match up between those slot cars an 98mm?

does anyone know what offset wheels go with the hurda?
+3 N front, +3 W rear?

mk2kompressor
2008.05.03, 03:27 AM
it will take +3 all round:)

tudor_47
2008.05.05, 02:53 AM
stuZ: Be careful with the Hurda body as it WILL crack and brake at the slightest impact, I have broken 2 or 3 already .... They are very easily broken.

The lexan(parma) I have on now, survived a race last night, even after me rolling at the end and flipping it onto the floor, yes it was airborne for some time there hitting the concrete floor...... I broke one of the body pins but the body and chassies are without damage!!

The truscale bodies, I have seen the mirage M2 mounted on a P28 chassie so I think it will accept +3 offset all around. I did not find a single picture now but in this thread there are atleast 2 pictures of truescale bodies MirageM2 and a ferrari both cars can be seen sitting on top of a power supply. http://www.pocketrocket.se/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=54
The pictures are all from the HURDA challenge in Jonkoping Sweden. Scroll down... the MirageM2 is blue/orange and sitting to the left of a HURDA body in orange/white with number 1 on it.
enjoy!

/Johnny
PS
You can also see my sinister belly up on 2 pictures...

stuZ
2008.05.09, 03:41 PM
The truscale bodies, I have seen the mirage M2 mounted on a P28 chassis so I think it will accept +3 offset all around.

Hey Johnny,
I noticed that body, and liked it. Luckily, this place (http://www.scrhobbies.com/): http://www.scrhobbies.com/
is a close enough drive from me. I picked up couple of .007 bodies.
They're pretty thin and that worries me, I'm sure .010 is better, but even then.
Also, where I race we don't really have an open class, we race speedy 07 or lesser, and nobody runs lexan bodies. I'm afraid my chassis would get brutalized in a couple of good smacks.
I think I'm going to go back to a hard body, but with the front post setup.