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View Full Version : How will 2.4 effect racing at your track?


rharris
2008.02.06, 12:46 AM
I've been hearing rumors at our local track.

Nothing is official yet, but at the kenon track there is talk of changing the classes all around to make room for the new 2.4 boards.

The best idea I've heard so far is this:

Run any board you want, stack the fets any way you want for both stock, super-stock and Mod. The only limitation is the winds in the motor.

I'm very hopeful that this idea will take off. It would be very cool to have the exact same setup for stock and mod.

What's the chatter at other tracks?

leonen
2008.02.06, 08:34 AM
We had last year 4 classes:


Stock
Modified
AWD
F1


For 2008 we scheduled running some more:


Stock
Modified
F1
Open
Open Le Mans


Stock and Modified allow any kind of stock chassis (MR01 - MR015 - MR02 - IW02m - AWD), but the motors make the difference.

F1 is open, but as someone else said, "slow is fast".

Open allows any creative ideas to plot into the track.

MR02 LM Le Mans have their own class, together with the Hurda, PanCar and VDS. Obviously to compete against the MR02 LM PCB you are allowed to have an AdBand, or any other after market PCB.

We run Stock and Modified every Saturday, having 2 simultaneous yearly tournaments in both categories.

Once every 5 weeks we have Open Class dates. I guess Open Le Man's will also fit those dates.

arch2b
2008.02.06, 11:03 AM
our club takes that a bit further regarding simplification. we have a couple classes and ONLY body spec and other similar individual events have any restrictions. our normal club stock (open really), f1, lemans (created for the 2.4 cars) all allow any motor/any board/fets. we tried fet and motor restrictions and it only led to questions, clarifications, and more issues. now it's very simple. run what you have as fast as you can do so consistently. this has worked very well for us and to be honest, most of the fastest drivers run more stock like cars vs. highly modified.

the bigger question is how will 2.4 effect standardized racing series like hfay, pn worlds, atomic worlds, etc. etc. these are all established series that now have soo many board options to deal with that it's getting extremely complicated.
ad-band
2.4
i-series
3010 stock
3004 stock
iwaver am
iwaver fw
and god knows how many other variations of iwaver boards

CristianTabush
2008.02.06, 12:13 PM
Ruf and I originally brought the no FET limitation Rule to Phil at the end of last year. I know Phillip is already testing a higher wind motor for the stock class. Something in the 56-62 or so turn range. The stock class is too fast already anyways. The only thing you can do is lift these board limitations or the scale will implode on itself. There are already too many classes and this leads to the thinning out effect. (People think they need to have more cars to be able to race and only a few can afford it, therefore the ones that can't afford it drop out and it makes clubs smaller.)

K.I.S.S. Method is what I say. Combine the touring classes (AWD,2WD), drop the FET Rules and you will have a much better racing program.

That way you are left with Stock Touring, Mod Touring, F1, Pan Car (which should have the LeMans cars, but won't happen) and finally LeMans class.

As far as the old board issue, that's just a matter of class development. If you want to race, and do it competitively, you get better electronics. In this case, it means better FETs. If you don't want to upgrade your 3004 boards, that's fine, but this does not mean that creating proactive rules should not happen. We don't need to protect old technology, but rather embrace the new one.

hrdrvr
2008.02.06, 12:32 PM
We have adopted the most simplistic theory based on a lot of the same commentary Im seeing here (and the other 2.4 thread). We run all the cars together outside of the F1. Everything is stock, or however modded you want to be. Therefore, we have box stock 015s racing with double stacked AWDs. You would think there is a huge difference, but the way we try and layout our track is to have it fast, and technical. You have to have a balanced set up to turn fast laps consistently. Our current lap time record is held with a car on 3010s and a speedy05. Its about .25 faster than any mod (upgraded FETs) cars.

The 2.4 cars wont effect our rules at all!

Im curious as to how the 'real' racing rules will be edited. I try and keep my cars within the range of HFAY/PN rules now, just on the off chance I get to visit a club that has these rules in place. Most of the other guys I race with fall into this category as well. Most of us are running 3010s with FET safe motors. We plan on purchasing some RCP and joining HFAY soon so Ill be keeping a very close eye on what they do in this case.

phea
2008.02.06, 01:00 PM
As far as the old board issue, that's just a matter of class development. If you want to race, and do it competitively, you get better electronics. In this case, it means better FETs. If you don't want to upgrade your 3004 boards, that's fine, but this does not mean that creating proactive rules should not happen. We don't need to protect old technology, but rather embrace the new one.

I agree, It's just like 1/10 scale where everyone has brushless motors. Brushed motors just aren't as fast and as efficient. If people want to compete and get faster they should acknowledge the newer technology.

rharris
2008.02.06, 02:24 PM
I think PN will adopt a Motor wind limit rule. I would be willing to bet it will be this year in the 2008 world cup.

Cristian, you have an excellent point about clubs splitting and new drivers feeling they need to many cars. This was an issue with the kids club SRC. HFAY proclaimed a new stock motor that pushed the limit of the 3004, kids with 3004's needed to upgrade to 3010's to feel competitive. Some blew out fets, some bought new cars, but in the end a lot of kids were discouraged.

It would be far simpler to have motor wind limits.

Also, I have a car for every class. 2wd stock, 2wd mod, 4wd stock, 4wd mod, f1 stock, f1 mod, and pan. But now, I only race the Pan, and sometimes the 2wd stock. I'm looking at my self saying "there is no way I can race all of these cars".

Anyway, lots of good comments. I hope more guys chip in their $0.02.

yscheong
2008.02.06, 08:25 PM
Thats what happen here in Mini Z Dynasty in Malaysia.

Our season race is no fet or board limite. But with motor control, only Kyosho X-speed (3 type), PN Speedy 07, 05, Atomic stock and AWD stock is allow. All this motor is have different feel but all have balance in speed.

Must use original motor can, magnet and armatue. Silver brush or carbon brush can be change freely.

wcrotty
2008.02.07, 11:34 AM
Christian,

I agree with everything you said but combine the classes. Does 10th scale combine the awd and 2wd in the same class? nope.

I feel they drive differently and need a separate class. If you are going to
combine a class then Pan and 2wd mod would be the most logical.

rharris,

I love racing all the classes. More track time and i love adjusting my driving style to all the different cars. It gets hectic sometimes but with planning and organization it can be done.


Yes the fet rule needs to be open up. Also the chassis rule but that is another argument.

CristianTabush
2008.02.07, 02:44 PM
Combining the classes leads to a higher turnout in each category. The cars are eerily similar in speed and lap times. You can win in either or. The reason why they never combined them in 1:10 scales, is because they perform very differently, but not at this scale. Think of it more like full size GT Racing. The pan car class can stay the same, it's kinda fun in itself, but the rest of the classes meh! You can go about the same speed with both.

ruf
2008.02.07, 03:27 PM
wcrotty - I'm still kind of up in the air on combining 2WD and AWD. I completely understand why not to on the basis of 1/10, 1/8. But on the other hand, I do see value in combining the classes like Cristian mentioned. The lines are very different, but the laptimes are very close which leads to some very good racing. AWD will (and should) always have a weight penalty, and that kind of balances things out. I think it would be interesting to combine the two but with different weight limits similar to full-scale GT racing.

wcrotty
2008.02.07, 03:28 PM
some people don't like modified class and would like to run both awd stock and 2wd stock....some people like modified. It kinda stinks for the stock guys to only be limited to 1 class at a big race. (not including F1)
At a local track i don't mind combining the two classes.

I think both the cars drive different and the race style is also different.

To me getting more people in one class isn't as important as racing against the best in the class.

I think you will get more cars by splitting up the classes.

Anyways...I'm sure philip has listened to every side of the story and will make everything right with the world cup rules. I'm just really glad that mini-zs have philip for building a great race structure and backing the scale. With out PN mini-z racing wouldn't be as fun because kyosho dropped the ball organizing big races.

arch2b
2008.02.07, 03:33 PM
...I'm just really glad that mini-zs have philip for building a great race structure and backing the scale. With out PN mini-z racing wouldn't be as fun because kyosho dropped the ball organizing big races.

well said. i think HFAY (has just as many quirks) has also brought a good deal of interest to the scale in different ways.

ruf
2008.02.07, 03:41 PM
some people don't like modified class....some people like modified.I think this is a very important point that we need to investigate. WHY do some people not like modified class? And is that barrier real or perceived? How would the rule changes that we're talking about potentially effect that barrier?

wcrotty
2008.02.07, 03:56 PM
Ruf, I think the barrier is real and not just perceived. Here are some points i can come up with. Maybe others can add more.

-Reaction time. Stock class requires less reaction time then modified. And the older people get the harder modified is.

-Driving styles. In stock drivers are required to drive a smooth line keeping the speed in the corners. To me stock class is more of an art then anything. A good stock race is just great to watch. Modified is alot faster and requires a different skill......in 2wd the trigger is key(because of traction). Right now people are trying to slow the car down because we don't have enough. The art of mod is in the trigger. Now watching a great Mod race is AMAZING and scary at the same time.

-Setup. Stock cars are easier to set up and track changes don't affect them as much to the common racer. Modified cars and drivers have to chase the car for the track changes a lot more. Not many people are good at doing that.

-Speed, People love speed and don't know how to slow down and blame the car.


any more?

CristianTabush
2008.02.07, 04:00 PM
Re you implying that your reaction time is going down Bill? ;)

imxlr8ed
2008.02.07, 04:06 PM
Should be only 3 classes from here on out...

Racer:

Stock Kyosho chassis, any Kyosho board, any fet combo, Rubber/Silicone tires, any brushed 130 size motor.

F1:

Stock Kyosho chassis, any Kyosho board, any fet combo, Rubber/Silicone tires, any brushed 130 size motor.

Mod:

Any chassis, any electronics, any motor, any tires, 4 nimh batts. (Must be 1/28th scale)

That's where I see it all going... oh, and AWD and 2WD will be combined for both Stock and Mod.

simple enough...

arch2b
2008.02.07, 04:16 PM
Should be only 3 classes from here on out...

Racer:

Stock Kyosho chassis, any Kyosho board, any fet combo, Rubber/Silicone tires, any brushed 130 size motor.

F1:

Stock Kyosho chassis, any Kyosho board, any fet combo, Rubber/Silicone tires, any brushed 130 size motor.

Mod:

Any chassis, any electronics, any motor, any tires, 4 nimh batts. (Must be 1/28th scale)

That's where I see it all going... oh, and AWD and 2WD will be combined for both Stock and Mod.

simple enough...

this is exactly how our dc club works already :)

CristianTabush
2008.02.07, 04:26 PM
That's a good structure for small clubs. I would add the SuperStock class in between the racer and modified classes. It is important to cater to people of all skill levels. The pro-stock/super stock class is where the Intermediate drivers get to hone their skills. The jump from a box stock motor to full blown modified is too big of a difference in speed. This creates problems for the advanced guys and the intermediate ones as well. (fast guys can't get around them and the slower guys are constantly trying to get out of the way.)

arch2b
2008.02.07, 04:34 PM
whats interesting is that with our club, many people simply run the same car/setup on another car with a different motor. few of us actually have true open class chassis's but we have the class to accomodate them while not precluding anyone from participating at the same time.

structuring heats, etc. by skill level helps keep races clean thus avoiding the top drivers from simply doing lap traffic.

ruf
2008.02.07, 04:36 PM
any brushed 130 size motor.This is an interesting thought. I would keep a few Kyosho box stock motors, and a few Speedy07s around as club loaners. This way newer drivers can experience different power levels and appreciate what works best for their current skill level.

For instance, if you have a new guy come in with the baddest motor around and can't drive down the straightaway, offer him the Speedy07 but don't call it a "stock" motor. After he feels the difference and sees the drop in lap times, maybe even try the Kyosho box stock with him.

Also, for the new guy with a box stock car, you can give him a taste for more power as he/she improves with the Speedy07.

wcrotty
2008.02.07, 05:01 PM
Re you implying that your reaction time is going down Bill? ;)

Ya unfortunately it is. So i have to make up for it by practicing more.
Oh and drink way more coffee. :eek:

wcrotty
2008.02.07, 05:03 PM
Should be only 3 classes from here on out...

Racer:

Stock Kyosho chassis, any Kyosho board, any fet combo, Rubber/Silicone tires, any brushed 130 size motor.

F1:

Stock Kyosho chassis, any Kyosho board, any fet combo, Rubber/Silicone tires, any brushed 130 size motor.

Mod:

Any chassis, any electronics, any motor, any tires, 4 nimh batts. (Must be 1/28th scale)

That's where I see it all going... oh, and AWD and 2WD will be combined for both Stock and Mod.

simple enough...


So you can race a modified motor in the racer class?

ruf
2008.02.07, 05:09 PM
That's how it read to me which is why I found it interesting. Pretty much level of suckage will determine what motor you run and what heat you get stacked in. Might work out for small clubs where the race director really knows his grid.

imxlr8ed
2008.02.07, 10:24 PM
So you can race a modified motor in the racer class?

We're still running 3010s only in Stock and F1, everything and anything else in Mod. It's really any motor in stock that you're brave enough to run, but almost all of the crew keeps it along the lines of "stock" motors (Xspeeds, 05s, 07s, Atomics...). Kind of an un-spoken agreement really (possibly determined by our own suckage levels or our wacky high traction RCP). I'm sure when the 2.4s finally start showing up in numbers that it's going to switch to what I previously posted.

It would seem that it's happening in 10th scale around here as well, 19 turn this year is going to be a combo of Lipo vs. nimh and Checkpoints against 13.5s and 10.5s. Majority of guys I talk to say it's really all up to driving and tuning skill anyways. Speed doesn't buy you a one-way ticket to winning, I tell my guys that it's great if you want to go faster than everyone else... have fun trying to make it stick in the corners!

Waiting to see what happens if Kyosho goes brushless... probably just a dream though.

herman
2008.02.08, 12:24 AM
-Driving styles. In stock drivers are required to drive a smooth line keeping the speed in the corners. To me stock class is more of an art then anything. A good stock race is just great to watch. Modified is alot faster and requires a different skill......in 2wd the trigger is key(because of traction). Right now people are trying to slow the car down because we don't have enough. The art of mod is in the trigger. Now watching a great Mod race is AMAZING and scary at the same time.


totally agree on this... would really love to see top mod drivers drive box stock cars in a race... as master wcrotty mentioned it's "more of an art then anything"... i would put it in another way, where skill would be the name of the game since all things would be equal... no more excuses (should've had stiffer/softer springs... should have a harder h-plate... should've had a faster motor in it...etc... etc.) nothing to blame but your own driving... :D

2EZ
2008.02.08, 11:08 AM
I had the honor of racing with Wcrotty in Vagas a few years back and he demonstrated Some of that "art" one of the classes was a pure stock Kyosho 01 every one was driving the same thing and skill made the differance. I could spend all the money in the world and still not be as fast as some of you guys remember though I just want to think I have a chance. By the way he was nice enough to give me some tips that still help me today.you guys should know that the average guy just wants to have fun and keep the cost down and belive he can be competive.

CristianTabush
2008.02.08, 12:38 PM
totally agree on this... would really love to see top mod drivers drive box stock cars in a race... as master wcrotty mentioned it's "more of an art then anything"... i would put it in another way, where skill would be the name of the game since all things would be equal... no more excuses (should've had stiffer/softer springs... should have a harder h-plate... should've had a faster motor in it...etc... etc.) nothing to blame but your own driving... :D

I agree and at the same time disagree with this. Stock is about having your set-up perfect and the car perfect and the perfect tire and the perfect run. All this is easier to achieve in stock than in modified. I have been able to win the PN Cup twice by a lengthy difference in stock 2wd, and failed so many times in modified due to the most important thing when racing Modified: LUCK!!! Modified is nearly impossible to be perfect.

I will not stop until I get 1 mod title ;) It is still more prestigious in my opinion, because it totally does take more skill level...

stitchy
2008.02.08, 12:39 PM
This creates problems for the advanced guys and the intermediate ones as well. (fast guys can't get around them and the slower guys are constantly trying to get out of the way.)

hey, that's me! :D (the slow guy, not the fast one)

this is my two cents from the other 2.4 thread:

+1 for making the classes around motors. Out of the box motor or equivalent for stock, Speedy etc. for super-stock, and mod for mod/open. And no mod/open guys running two classes sandbagging in stock. It's like Kobe Bryant going to a high school gym calling next on a pickup game. What's the point?

I'm new to mini-zs, and have yet to race my first mini-z race (used to race 1/10 scale). Seeing those "stock" lap counts one lap less than mod is really puzzling. A true stock class would let noobs like me learn how to drive better, not get in the way, and not be intimidated by "the fast guys." I have friends that I want to introduce to mini-z's but have reservations because I'm afraid they'll be intimidated by the cost of just getting competitive and not being able to upgrade their cars and skills at their own pace. While it's true you don't have to spend a ton on upgrades, increasing the speed to today's "stock" levels almost forces you to spend a fair amount on suspension pieces alone. I know because I resisted upgrading for a long time but finally gave in, spending around $100 for motor, motor mount, disc damper, springs, tires, etc. etc.

schmenzer
2008.02.08, 01:32 PM
well said. i think HFAY (has just as many quirks) has also brought a good deal of interest to the scale in different ways.

I totally agree here. I would not have become addicted to Mini-Zs if it were not for the HFAY format. In fact, I had Mini-Zs a few years ago because I was interested but there was nowhere to run them and I'd never heard of RCP.

Now, thanks to the HFAY beginnings, I started a club in Milwaukee to help get the word out and broaden the appeal by having different classes. That said, since we are all new here, I am for simplified rules to keep the barrier to entry down for now.

I see the following but am really looking for advice on how to grow.

Beginner's/Kid's class = Kyosho ECO or xMods Stage 1 motor. Everything else is open because I can't see much making a difference at the speed these motors go except tires. A beginner should not HAVE to do anything to become competitive except practice.

Stock Class = HFAY OLPS rules, what ever they are at the time, so folks don't NEED another car or setup to race longer local tracks. If 2.4 becomes legal in HFAY, as I hope it will, they can run here.

Open Class = anything goes. 2.4 included. We run in a space about 18 x 30 and I am game for drivers to try whatever they need to go fast.

As interest grows I can certainly see a NASCAR class. Easy courses and rabid fans in Wisconsin! I'd love to see a LeMans only class as an endurance series because that is where my full scale racing interest is.

In the end I am going to have to go with the flow here. If a bunch of folks want to go in a particular direction I am open to input and my only real goal is to see this scale racing grow and going forward growth seems to be 2.4.

BTW, I have been using 2.4GHz gear in my racing and combat RC planes for over 3 years and it is AWESOME.

Greg

wcrotty
2008.02.08, 02:27 PM
2EZ, Thanks for the kind words....it was a blast racing with you.


Christian, in some ways i agree with the luck factor but that is a very very rare thing. Like what happened to Mike Dumas in Cleveland this year. He was leading the A-main in 12th mod and his speedo went. That is what i call luck.

In mod it is a lot easier to make mistakes. Getting punted by another driver is bad driving and mistake by the other driver(but it stinks). Hitting a wall is a mistake. Lots of mistakes do happen in modified but a perfect race can be run.


I hope no one takes offense to anything i say. I just like talking about racing. :)

CristianTabush
2008.02.08, 05:40 PM
In mod it is a lot easier to make mistakes. Getting punted by another driver is bad driving and mistake by the other driver(but it stinks). Hitting a wall is a mistake. Lots of mistakes do happen in modified but a perfect race can be run.



That is exactly why racing Modified is harder and takes more to win...

Cherub1m
2008.04.09, 10:20 PM
I know this is an old post but I was thinking classes could be run this way to simplify and reduce the number of classes to an acceptable number.

1) MR 02 all in 2wd open class (non feted, feted, AD Band and 2.4ghz)

2) MR 015 2wd stock class (making this class the true stock class would be amazing and fun)

3) AWD mod

4) AWD stock (most places don't run a AWD stock)

5) F1 stock class

So for all Kyosho made 1/28 and 1/24(F1) that would only be 5 classes. Could 1/28 pan cars be bunched with the MR 02? I am not sure. Is it an advantage to have separate electronic? I am not sure because the MR 02 are very though to beat. At this point I would have to lean toward not including pan cars with MR 02's and make a separate pan class increasing the number of classes to 6. However, since most don't run AWD stock then it brings us back to 5.

Later
Philip

P.S. I did not add NACAR because that is oval racing not on-road

marc
2008.04.13, 07:52 PM
The best car in the world will suck with a stupid driver. The worst car in the world, would rock with a superb driver. Not exactly, but you get my point. I think it's more exciting to combined classes and differently skilled drivers.

Cherub1m
2008.04.13, 10:25 PM
My only concern with combining classes is, this may eliminate the popularity of a classe. For example, if the AWD is faster on the track then the MR02 then more will buy the AWD and the MR02 class will be gone and we wont even think about the MR 015 none will use it on nascar class if they can use an MR02 chassis. So that would mean bye bye to the MR 015 (MR015 is a class i feel could have lots of potential because set up is so crucial to keep them from tipping over). Different classes are needed to keep the miniz alive and growing.

Its nice to get a response, I thought no one would read this post again :D

marc
2008.04.13, 11:20 PM
Well so have a combination of both. One race, be restricted to classes, another race, combined theme all.

Question is, can the Dnano and Lite compete with each other? Similar size, but slighty different chassis. Think of the Lite as the MR01 in compact size, and the Dnano as MR02. Granted the Morris Mini Cooper is bigger and more 1/28 in scale than the other's, but perhaps some 1/43 scale slot car bodies and what not can be adapted to the Lite.
I've seen on Mini-ZBar somebody adapted a Datson 280Z body on the Lite with Tagu wheel's. Looked really good too.
I had thought about competeing my Morris Mini Cooper Lite alongside the MR02's, but it like's to flip alot on the turn's.

Aurora
2008.04.14, 05:33 PM
I think it is difficult to generalize what 'should be' the classification for racing, and the answer really depends on the demand/actual situation for each club.

I usually drive in two tracks, one in Hong Kong and one in Beijing, and lately had the chance to travel oversea to drive in a few tracks in Tokyo. All these tracks are different in demographics/culture and even between HK/Beijing, there are still a vast difference between the crowds.

From what I saw and learned from these tracks, I think two principles hold the truth--that racing suppose to promote this hobby/scale and it is supposed to be fun and induce friendly competition.

I have discussed so many different scenarios/ideas/rules about this whole club racing with the Beijing track, and if we were to structure race to promote 'fairness', then we will be too divided that almost every factor of the car can create a new category.


Finally, we had came up with the idea of 'point series race'(a little resemble the F1 and larger scale RC race), and the classes expand in the following reasoning:


1) all open class for anyone to participate
-basically no rule, except the battery as 4AAAs, kyosho/Ko Propo boards, and no extreme mod allowed on shell/chassis for weight-cutting purposes. This way everyone at club is welcomed to take part. Suitable for a small crowd if the turn out is low.

2) MR02 class
-After a race or two, it seemed that the racing crowd can basically divided into two demographics: hard-core modified AWD and mildly/stock MR02 folks, there seems to be a crowd of MR02 die hard fans, they praise not on power/speed, but rewards oftentimes go to those who can run the perfect lines consistently.

Careful consideration is given on this matter, and decision is such that--open class will remain open to everyone, so anyone who is skillful and wants to give a shot, you can drive whatever you want (kyosho 015, 02 or AWD) and try to win the race. But a new class is created based on the demographics of the drivers, to encourage the MR02 drivers which is almost 2/5-1/2 people on the track.


Originally, I proposed an idea of challenging the "genius" vs. the "hard working" types of drivers--so if the track changes pattern every two months, one race will be hosted on the first day of change to cultivate and challenge racers' setup skills as well as driving skills and response, and another race will take place after a month of practice to give a chance to the hard-workers.

However, since the crowd in general is small and only a handful will meet the demands of day-one race, for now, a race is scheduled to take place at each mid-month, and track will change direction each month, while change pattern on bi-monthly basis.

Anyway, just $0.02 of mine.