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Programmers
2008.03.27, 04:22 AM
Hey Gentlemen, let's talk club championships!

It's something that's been brushed over a couple of times between members and since the club has been more organized, it's something that has the potential to be good fun.

So let's talk about thoughts and ideas and maybe we can get the first heats in next meet!!

Programmers
2008.03.27, 04:36 AM
These are my thoughts below!! Not certainties - please discuss this! :D

Scoring System
We should run a points system like that in the F1 and HFAY.

1st: 10pts
2nd: 8pts
3rd: 7pts
Etc...

Race Setup
In order to be fair on everyone - Bri and us lot came up with a handicap system last night that worked pretty well! We tried and tested a few methods before we came up with the ideal and closest one.

We aimed for a tight race - where we were all sweating at the end.

Our idea is based on the HFAY, when we're all going hell for leather we determine time differences between the racers to come up with a points advantage. So lets pretend that this is the final results HFAY heat:

Bri - 70 laps (6sec pace)
Tony - 65 (7sec pace)
Tom - 55 (8sec pace)

What we would do is look at the laps between Tom and Tony (10) and multiply them by his pace (8sec) which gives us 80 seconds head start for Tom.

The problem with that was that in testing, being the only one on the track gave the first person a massive advantage. So we decided to divide the total by two so this was now the equation:

Lap difference x pace / 2

So now say that we worked out the time differences:

Tom would start at go
Tony would join at 40 seconds
Bri would join at 55 seconds

We put this to the test last night... Twice.

We all were finishing withing 2-6 laps of each other!! So this could be our permanent system for that unless someone has a better idea?

Prizes/Fees
We never spoke much about this last night but my thoughts were: A great prize would be a trophy. It's cheap and would cut down participation fees. A readyset would be awesome but 80 between 6/7 of us costs more than 20 between 6/7 of us. (Trophys look cool too. :D )

I think fees should be a one off for the whole championship.

Championship Duration & Race Duration
2 races X 8 minutes, each way seems nice - like HFAY.

No idea on championship duration... Annual, perhaps?

Other Special Circumstances
I was thinking it might be cool to throw in an endurance mid way?

Please people, let's discuss this idea more!! This could be VERY cool if we get it going.

575racer
2008.03.27, 09:54 AM
sounds cool! as for the prize, maybe an autoscale with a small plaque (cant spell that) would be cool?

Neomax
2008.03.27, 03:32 PM
Bloody hell... just typed up loads and then cought the esc key :mad: it deleted everything :(

I'll start again...

All good idea's.
I think the duration of the championship is a very important decider as to the level of prize, i.e. if the championship is held over the course of the year then you would have to take in to account the ever hated 'drops' as not everyone may be able to attend every meet and i think the prize would maybe better bigger (such as a ready set or something) and a small trophy, for the personal acknowledgment of winning it.

If the championship was more of a one-off day event then i think maybe the prize would be better being smaller (just a nicely sized trophy) so it is more about the winning rather than the what-your-winning side of it.
In that case i think a mid sized trophy, with a plaque big enough to fit each years winners name on it, so over time as you sit with it in your house because you were that years winner, you know YOUR name will be going on it next to all the other people who have won it!

I personally prefere that idea, at the end of the day we all have cars and over time will accumilate more of them, so i'm not bothered in winning any cars, but winning a trophy, that would stay with me until the next years race and have my name put on it with the date i won it right next to all the previous people.....

now that would be quite cool.




As far as the 'handicap' system goes, i'm happy to have one as it will increase the competition and make it fairer, and it did seem to work fairly well last night. But i would like to see it tested more, and on a bigger scale. i.e. Get all of us on a track and try it out to test how it goes. As one problem we did have last night was the first try the time difference was waayyy too big, the second time it was more-or-less right... but the problem i foresee is over a greater period of time, with more people, will cause a Butterfly Effect. Where on a larger scale it exaggerates the minor imperfections and cancels itself out.

It is a great idea but i think we need to impliment it more to test its reliability.


I am glad this ball is rolling as i think it could make for some really intense races, where EVERYONE will feel like they have a chance of winning and going all-out and testing the best of all of us! I hope we can get it to work!

kryten
2008.03.27, 06:58 PM
Great idea! i'd go for the series with an endurance race,i really like the idea of that,tho not sure how long an endurance we can do with 1 man teams.Maybe the endurance could be 2 or 3 man teams with the winners sharing points?
Not too bothered about prizes tbh,got enough cars now;) I'd be up for an extra meet this/next month to do the testing/rule setup part,as Mal said it'd be a better test with more of us there.
Now we could get REALLY complicated with the maths side of things here,but here goes.And this method rely's on drivers honesty,no sandbaggers please!:p.
During qualifying,say a 30 or 60 min session the laps/averages are taken and worked out for each driver,but instead of giving head starts,those head start times worked out in laps are then credited to each driver post-race.Actually that didn't sound very complicated after all:D
That way we can have a "normal" race start.And keep the excitement/chaos of the start line.

Programmers
2008.03.27, 09:46 PM
I think the trophy should be something the winner keeps... 20 for an engraved trophy between 7 of us... It's a nice thing to own I would imagine!

I also like Lee's idea of a small prize. An autoscale seems nice and it's presentable too. :)

Couldn't agree more Mal on more testing... We need a way of forcing people to drive their fastest... Which is why Jayce, qualifying wouldn't be accurate. For example, I could hold back a lot during qualifying so that my handicap is minimum.

I think HFAY could be used to determine our first race then - the previous race for therefore onwards?

As for the endurance - 2 man teams sounds good!! Perhaps randomly selected out of a hat?

As for time... 2/3hrs is manageable. Even by one person really - if you're organized!! We've done 30 minutes one man before. That was one battery change. Wasn't too hard.

MARSHALS!!!
It's just occurred to me!! If we're having the serious races for prizes and points, then we're gonna need Marshals...

So now I'd like to address the idea of point drops... I like the sound of point drops but not for compensating those who are absent but for maybe compensating the MARSHALS! (Genius!)

We can all marshal one race over the 6 months or two races over the 12 and have it as a drop. If we all do that - it's fair. Then we could have 1 addition worse race drop??

Remember!! We need to keep things as simple as possible if we're gonna run it AND have fun!

kryten
2008.03.28, 08:29 AM
Well i did say :p

And this method rely's on drivers honesty,no sandbaggers please!:p.

Using HFAY results to calculate is ok,but are we running the series on HFAY sized tracks?Otherwise how do we work out the handicap system on bigger tracks?

Programmers
2008.03.28, 08:41 AM
Sorry mate hehe. I just skimmed the text because there was a lot. :o

Yeah, it's not gonna work well because we'll be using the full sized tracks. It seems there's no choice but to have a qualifier and hope that everyone's honest enough to give it their best orrr...

<strokeofgenius>

For the first qualifier that determines the seasons start handicaps, give points for the fastest lap order!

This way it forces people to drive fast but doesn't mean they have to WIN the race! This way, we can all start at the same time and get a realistic lap count and pace ready for the start of the season!!

</strokeofgenius>

:cool:

575racer
2008.03.28, 01:07 PM
sounds all good, but what class cars are we racing? hfay or open? not all of us have open cars if im correct, but my hfay car can keep up in open races (and occasionaly win:D)
i dont mind which type we use though? maybe if we make a poll for everyone to vote in?

kryten
2008.03.28, 02:12 PM
I would think HFAY class would be best,as we all have a car already setup for that-and we all know the rules too.Remember Lee we are using a bigger track than the HFAY one for this!

Programmers
2008.03.28, 02:37 PM
I think open would be best - otherwise we'd be racing 1 type of car all day.

Stock isn't always bad - as Liam said, he's won races with his. I used to too, when all I had was a stock car.

Brian also only runs one car.

I think if we have open - it leaves it to everyones choice personal choice. Whereas HFAY setup limits peoples choices.

575racer
2008.03.28, 02:45 PM
coolcool, i might try and get an x-speed for it then:D my cars pretty much stock lol!
starting all this next gtg then?

Programmers
2008.03.28, 02:50 PM
Yeah, ideally! I need to talk with Bri to get this finalised!

It'd also be a nice feature to have the race results and overall standings on our site. Just like HFAY.

kryten
2008.03.28, 04:03 PM
Thinking about it,with the handicapping system it doesn't matter what cars we run.

Programmers
2008.03.28, 04:24 PM
That's a very good point! It does mean however, that we MUST stick with the same car all season. Otherwise we'll have to qualify every meet.

What does everyone think of my qualifying idea?? That okay?

As for that - would everyone prefer to qualify each meet or just use the last months results to make the current months handicaps.

Qualify each meet pro:
- You can change your car

Con:
- It'll take longer to get into racing.

The opposite would apply for a single qualifying event.

Thoughts please! More discussion as well as suggestion please. :)

kryten
2008.03.28, 04:34 PM
I would think using the last months actual race laps (before handicaps applied)would be the best way to work out this months handicaps,as that way you know everyone was going flat out! No sandbagging;) plus it gives whoever does the sums a whole month to do it:cool:
Would we be able to design different larger tracks that are app the same length?
And putting the results up on our website is a great idea too,we just need to start taking more photo's at meets.

575racer
2008.03.28, 04:46 PM
sounds good:) i reckon qualifying at the begining, then we could always do it again in the middle of the championship if people do change cars, we can decide on that nearer the time though:D

Programmers
2008.03.28, 07:10 PM
Yeah Jayce, I imagine every month the track would be the same length if we used x amount of wide L's. Something I'm sure Bri will work out.

I think the best thing to do for the handicap decider is a poll... :)

kryten
2008.03.28, 08:31 PM
Do we know how long the championship will run? I'm assuming now it'll be annual? The only problem with rule 2 is if HFAY allows 2.4 into stock class next season people who upgrade to 2.4 may well want to use that car instead of maybe their HFAY car.
Other than that i can't really see any flaw with this option.
Sorry i know this is now on the wrong thread,i just thought i'd keep the voting thread clear.

Programmers
2008.03.28, 09:21 PM
I'm not sure how long it will run for... Another poll is a coming then lol!

kryten
2008.03.28, 09:34 PM
LOL sorry mate,am i making more work for you?

Programmers
2008.03.28, 09:49 PM
Lol na mate, don't worry about it. It's all for a good cause.

Neomax
2008.03.30, 07:18 AM
with regards to the class of car, i think it needs to be one or the other (stock or open) as we all know what happens when an open car comes up the back of a stock car at twice the speed.:mad:
And i'm sure those who decide to use the slower cars will be none too happy with broken shells and those who choose faster cars will be none too happy with slow cars on the line all the time.

If its going to be a 'championship' then i think it deffinatly needs a 'classification' for the cars, you dont see Nascar allowing Robin Reliants :eek: to enter using a handicap.

I really thinks its getting a whole lot more compicated than it needs to be, just have a championship where all cars are the same:confused:. If we had something like a championship where you are allowed to use any setup you like, but electrics and batteries must be stock and the motor had to be something like an Eco motor... then you would'nt need handicaps. This would also make it fairer and really test a drivers ability to find the 'line' as you cant rely on your speed to get you there.

HFAY using this very same type of system is exactly why they don't need handicaps to make it fair.

Sorry to be the spanner in the works, but i see this getting very complicated and time consuming, and i for one would like to race at our meets, and not spend ages running qualifyers and sorting handicaps. I think you'll find this will take a long time to workout in actuality and waste a lot of our day :(

Programmers
2008.03.30, 11:18 AM
Using a specific motor is a good idea really - like most car championships, there are rules. But our main rule is it must be mini-z I guess. But introducing a motor we must use isn't a bad idea at all.

However, this will take time. Because people like Liam and my Dad who only have one car will need to change their setup at some point in the day and so would me and you because we have FET upgrades. Unless we all by third and second cars just for the championships...

HFAY don't have handicaps because it's straight forward racing. We're after more than that - we're after a race where the slower people stand a chance... So we finish at the line at the same time remember. Which means we're gonna need handicaps to allow that.

As for time sorting qualifiers - leave it to me! Me doing the math wont cost you time on the track, I promise. ;) Come to think of it - method two would be the best. This way we can work out handicaps between the meets.

575racer
2008.03.30, 02:39 PM
this is a biggggg problem:( i really cant afford another car right now, i can pay to come and race but i wont be getting another car till september probably:( id be happy using the same motor as everyone else, like an xspeed - i can always put my hfay motor back in after.

Programmers
2008.03.30, 03:10 PM
You wont have to buy a new car. :p