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Programmers
2008.05.30, 05:34 AM
I was speaking to a fella yesterday who races 1/10th and he said it's quite popular to see people running a negative toe up front and a positive rear toe. He said it makes the cars really stable and it's what most people did at their club.

Has anyone tried this with our scale?

Would anyone recommend it?

Flashsp-2
2008.05.30, 06:15 AM
You mean like this?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2203/2143978908_8203c83a37_o.jpg

That was a few months ago, and I don't recall perfectly, but I remember the rear being really stable and the front being a little nervous out of the straights. It handled well in the twisties though. I should probably try it again...

andreophile
2008.05.30, 07:00 AM
I always use a positive toe (toe-in) at the rear to keep the car planted and to prevent spin outs under acceleration. It also helps to cut out torque steer. Initially I started with 2 toe-in and the rear was on rails. I have now settled with 1 toe-in as I like pendulum turns and a bit of oversteer when you gun the throttle.

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3674/chartke2.jpg

As for the front, I've tried both toe-in and toe-out to varying degrees and the table above shows my observations. A toe-out is good for off-power cornering, but it induces a bit of understeer with on-power cornering.

I didn't particularly like it with my MA-010 because I think a toe-out is ideal for RWD platforms like the MR-02 that could use the added off-power cornering and prevent spinouts when cornering under acceleration. Since I like to power out of the corners with my MA-010, I now use a 1.5 toe-in up front for sharper on-power response.

In a nutshell, a 1.5 toe-in at the front and a 1 toe-in at the rear works out well for me. By the way, I've also found out that a bit of silicon friction grease at the point of contact between the knuckles and the toe-control rods affords better straight line stability without sacrificing steering response. It prevents the steering skipping (wiggle) due to the slack between the knuckle—tie-rod joint.

Tjay
2008.05.30, 01:55 PM
I use this on my 10th scale as well to keep it stable...

Last night I tried +2 rear and -1 front. off throttle cornering is awesome but on throttle sucks! It was pushing like crazy! It did made the car stable and calm tho :).

Programmers
2008.06.12, 04:51 AM
Thanks for the quality replies fellas.

I waited to get my MA010 sorted before I replied so I had something interesting to say and last night I finally got it on a track...

I used a +2 rear toe and a -1 front toe and damn the thing felt planted. I was throwing it around like there was no tomorrow, to the point the rear wheel opposite to the direction I was traveling was lifting!! (Something I've sorted out now lol)

The only problem I found was that when I turned the wheel it felt a tad aggressive and so that's something I'm going to have to iron out through my TX I think.

So yes. Toe out front toe in rear - the way forward?! :cool:

marc
2008.06.12, 12:22 PM
I asked this question in another thread, you only talk about toe, what about camber? What sort of effect's will camber do both front and rear? On MR02, I like between .5 to 1 degree positive camber. Same with AWD for front and rear.

hrdrvr
2008.06.12, 02:11 PM
^ IMO, you should only use camber for evening out tire wear, not for changing the capabilities of your car. If the tires are wearing out on the inside, you need less camber, and vice versa. Any handling characteristics should be taken care of with toe, spring rates and tire selection.

Tjay
2008.06.12, 02:27 PM
for me...

sweeper, 180 turn:
-3 for less traction
0 or -1 for more traction

I usually keep the fronts to 1.5 deg. and the rear varies. It depends on the track's condition.

CristianTabush
2008.06.12, 03:58 PM
I believe they are speaking about Toe, not camber TJ. And yes, Landon is correct, camber should only be used for even tire wear. If the track conditions change, the tires should be changed, not the camber angles. Camber angles are for the type of layout, not the track condition.

marc
2008.06.12, 04:51 PM
So, let's say you have a Mini96 track, which is what I'm trying to get for my home. What's the best setting's for that particular track? That is asuming your layout is as the way it was originally designed for.

Programmers
2008.06.12, 06:06 PM
I think that depends on the shape of the corners - your camber will depend on how much your car will or wont lean during the race. So you aim to compensate for the lean by adding camber to provide even tire wear and vise versa.

Tjay
2008.06.12, 07:34 PM
I could've sworn Marc was asking about Camber...

I need to start messing around with different tires. Since I only use Kyosho 20's and PN 10's. Everything else is suspension tuning...

marc
2008.06.12, 11:11 PM
Yes, I was asking about camber as well. But now that I'm selling all my AWD's, question is, what's the best way to set up MR02 RM? MM? Are there different setting's for each? I know RM has the tendancy to oversteer more on the account of more rear, so how do you do it? I'm a tad confused as to what end do you want stiff or soft in regar's to suspension and tires. I'd think you want the best grip for rear, but if you have to much grip up front, you'll end up with wide turn's as I've experienced before. When I switched I think softer tires, my front wheel's turned in sharper.

hrdrvr
2008.06.13, 08:58 AM
So, let's say you have a Mini96 track, which is what I'm trying to get for my home. What's the best setting's for that particular track? That is asuming your layout is as the way it was originally designed for.

On the 010 I would run stock camber on a mini96 unless you find out you are wearing out the outer edges of the tires. I dont think you can build enough speed in the corners to need camber, but if you do, it shouldnt be more than 1.5. I run 1.5 on almost all of my cars on our 3 wide L layouts and its plenty.


I think that depends on the shape of the corners - your camber will depend on how much your car will or wont lean during the race. So you aim to compensate for the lean by adding camber to provide even tire wear and vise versa.

Thats a perfect explanation. And just to elaborate, the reason we go for even tire wear is because that is an indication of full contact, which of course means better/more traction.


I could've sworn Marc was asking about Camber...

I need to start messing around with different tires. Since I only use Kyosho 20's and PN 10's. Everything else is suspension tuning...

You definatly need to play with some different tires. I usually shoot for a neutral set up, then try different tire set ups based on the track condition. Some times I mess with springs a little, but so far, away from home, my set ups have worked perfect once I found the right tire combo (without changing any other settings). If you look in the beginner section when people start asking about tuning, most of the experienced guys always reccomend trying out different tires as a starting point. I used them as my starting point and ending point. Now that Ive been racing for a while, I usually build up all of my cars with the same base set up, then play with tires and bodies from there to get the right feel.


Yes, I was asking about camber as well. But now that I'm selling all my AWD's, question is, what's the best way to set up MR02 RM? MM? Are there different setting's for each? I know RM has the tendancy to oversteer more on the account of more rear, so how do you do it? I'm a tad confused as to what end do you want stiff or soft in regar's to suspension and tires. I'd think you want the best grip for rear, but if you have to much grip up front, you'll end up with wide turn's as I've experienced before. When I switched I think softer tires, my front wheel's turned in sharper.

On a mini96 youll want somethng to rotate fast, which will mean a shorter wheelbase and narrower cars. Ive seen some guys run some pretty insanely fast rotating cars with the 94MM set up, so Id start there. You may end up with an RM set up, but the push would be hard to deal with on such small lanes. At lower speeds though, softer front suspension and tires could overcome the understeer of the RM (and not give up much control), and you could run some shorter wheel bases for even faster rotation speeds.

On my garage track my funnest car was my 86mm pourshce 934. It had 24" lanes and a couple of U-turns, so the short wheel base got around the corners the quickest. I took the track down before I starting running 94MM, but I think I could get around pretty quck with a few tweeks to my current 02 set up.

bmxtrev
2008.06.13, 10:51 AM
I think that depends on the shape of the corners - your camber will depend on how much your car will or wont lean during the race. So you aim to compensate for the lean by adding camber to provide even tire wear and vise versa.


That makes perfect sense. Thanks Programmers! :D

On the mini-96, i would i agree that you want a short wheelbase with little or no offset. My friend has a ferrari 430 and because it has a narrower offset, it had more steering, but that was on a small track, like mini96 size. You probably wont get going fast enough to need the extra offsets, but thats just my .02. For RM on the mini96, try a really soft rear, and a stiffer front for understeer, and a softer front and not-as-soft rear for oversteer. You can always mess around with the dps friction and preload, and of course tires. And if you want more stability, try adding some offset to the rear.

I do know that i'm a noob, but it doesn't hurt to try to help :rolleyes:

atallfunguy
2008.12.29, 03:28 PM
I could've sworn Marc was asking about Camber...

I need to start messing around with different tires. Since I only use Kyosho 20's and PN 10's. Everything else is suspension tuning...

TJ>.. It would be great if someone could experiment with rear tires at inside line in the awd class.

Most of us are running 3 degrees in the rear and I hate this because it make the tires cone..

i would like to run like a 1 or 1.5