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soulstice
2009.01.18, 04:04 PM
Was wondering if anyone had information on Kyosho's lap timing system. I think I remember hearing that it would be a modification of Core's system but that was ages ago.

Is the system the same as the one used with the Dnano?

Anyone know of any release dates.

arch2b
2009.01.18, 04:22 PM
i would not trust any date kyosho gave us at this point.

i would certainly think you would not hear anything domestically until the usa exlcusive distribution system is setup and working.

briankstan
2009.01.18, 05:00 PM
with the Dnano Racing series that will be at hobbytown USA they will have to release the timing system before they start the series, or they are planning on only supplying them to those locations that will be hosting the racing. if that is the case that will be a real shame.

arch2b
2009.01.18, 07:03 PM
yep, there are just too many unknowns regarding anything dnano and domestic policy.

dxm2
2009.01.21, 02:07 PM
The system is listed here on Kyosho's site:
http://www.kyosho.com/eng/products/rc/acce_result.html?acce_type_id=8&s1=&s2=&sx=&page=3


And I was able to down load the manual from a Japanese hobby store site. THe link below is for the store, go to the dNano section, last item.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.rakuten.co.jp/marusan-hobby/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=5&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DKyosho%2Bpart%2B%2BNo.32011%26hl%3Den %26rls%3DGGLD,GGLD:2004-30,GGLD:en

The manual mentions that the lap counter cannot count two cars if they run over the sensor at the same time. Was this true of the CORE systems as well?

I'm trying to decide on a lapcounter/timing system now and the use of IC tags is very attractive from a cost perspective.

byebye
2009.01.21, 03:10 PM
$455!!!????????

I paid around that for my core but if it's not compatible with core than it may not be worth it.

And I never had a countin issue with core and more than one tag crossing the sensor.

Kris

Action B
2009.01.24, 01:23 PM
Whats the point of a lapcounter that cant count two cars at once? Sure that isnt a misinterpretation?

arch2b
2009.01.24, 09:29 PM
Whats the point of a lapcounter that cant count two cars at once? Sure that isnt a misinterpretation?

none in my opinion.

pinwc4
2009.01.24, 11:33 PM
This is a flaw in the Core system as well. If two cars were in the antenna loop (both entering and exiting the antenna field) for exactly the same times then it would not pick up the lap of either car. But because the antenna loop strength is not 100% uniform, the RFID's are located slightly differently on each car, the RFID's strenght is different on each car plus the it is highly unlikely for the cars to be exactly in sync I have not seen a lap be missed because of this. But in theory it is possible.

In the RFID world this is called a collision. If two tags are in the field at the same time you have to have collision detection. There are two ways to take care of the problem, one is to use additional time slots but this is too slow, you can only read laps at something like .3 seconds. The other is to tell a tag to be quiet immediately upon entering the field. The tag gets detected but will not talk again until it leaves and reenters the field. But this method while fast does leave us with the possible scenario mentioned above.

At least I am assuming that is what they are reffering to...

dxm2
2009.01.26, 12:46 PM
Hi PinWc4,
Did you get your second Lap counter system working? I've been thinking of assembling something similiar but would like to know if you were successful. Also, in terms of the collision scenario, have you seen this happen on either the CORE system you have or the home built system?

Also, for anyone interested, here's the manual for the Kyosho system:

http://www.kyosho.com/jpn/support/instructionmanual/dnano/pdf/IC_Tag_Lap_Counter_HE_Manual_EN.pdf

Thanks

pinwc4
2009.01.27, 08:36 PM
Hi PinWc4,
Did you get your second Lap counter system working? I've been thinking of assembling something similiar but would like to know if you were successful. Also, in terms of the collision scenario, have you seen this happen on either the CORE system you have or the home built system?

Also, for anyone interested, here's the manual for the Kyosho system:

http://www.kyosho.com/jpn/support/instructionmanual/dnano/pdf/IC_Tag_Lap_Counter_HE_Manual_EN.pdf

Thanks

I have not seen it miss a lap because of a collision. I am sure it can happen it is just extremely unlikely.

As for my own system I will update the other thread, do not want to clutter up this one with unrelated discussion.

Draconious
2009.01.28, 02:50 AM
So when racing, get a 2nd driver to drive into the counter field while your opponent is crossing... and have him leave when your crossing ;).

I think they should put a device in the car that counts, it could be a simple light sensor over a white line.... then use this tag technology to talk back to the computer to get the score etc off the car. Obviously the line and sensor would have to be a little better then just a on/off sensor.. cuz some one woudl take the car to the pit and flip a bunch of lines past it lol... or just do both, so they have rundandant backup.

pinwc4
2009.01.28, 07:13 PM
So when racing, get a 2nd driver to drive into the counter field while your opponent is crossing... and have him leave when your crossing ;).


You can check this collision problem yourself by taping two tags lined up together to a board or something stiff and passing it across the loop. When a race is running it will not detect them. I just tested this and it happens with the Core system and my system and I imagine that is what Kyosho is referring to for their dNano system.

But when I taped two cars to a board I had a much harder time getting it to miss laps especially as I spaced them apart (width wise not front/behind).

CoreAnalog
2009.02.23, 09:46 PM
The original Core system does handle multiple cars across the line at the same time through some collision algorithms. However, on some PC's the USB/serial response can be slow so it limits our abilities.

Here are some pics of the Kyosho system based on our technology. I am not sure when they will be available in the USA. But, they are selling in Japan...

--Core

bobbyz
2009.02.28, 04:02 PM
http://www.kyosho.com/jpn/products/rc/newparts.html

Above is a link to what looks like the part to attach an IC tag to the Mini Z line of cars for use with the Kyosho/Core system. Scroll down to part MZW113. It only shows up on the Japanese site, so it's probably only a Japan only release for now.

herman
2009.03.02, 06:56 AM
No.MZW113 price 2,310 yen (approx 23.80 u.s.d.)
http://www.kyosho.com/jpn/products/rc/parts_images/MZW113.jpg

wonder how you attach this to the chassis....

byebye
2009.03.02, 07:42 AM
No.MZW113 price 2,310 yen (approx 23.80 u.s.d.)
http://www.kyosho.com/jpn/products/rc/parts_images/MZW113.jpg

wonder how you attach this to the chassis....

My guess is on the top cover on the two most forward screw holes. The same holes the top shock attach to. I guess they did this assuming you'll be running a Disk damper.

Kris

bobbyz
2009.03.06, 04:29 PM
pics of attached IC tag from KYO-Japan

http://www.kyosho.com/jpn/fun/special/miniz_ic_tag/ex_world.html

I'd be a little concerned about it getting snagged by the rcp tiles at connection points, but i'm sure they already tested these out. I wonder how long or if we will see these in the US?

briankstan
2009.03.06, 04:35 PM
yep, that's how I figured it would mount. ON the under side closest to the track. especially with how small the tag is. it would have to be very close to the track to read and be reliable.

http://www.kyosho.com/jpn/fun/special/miniz_ic_tag/images/exworld_photo01.jpg

arch2b
2009.03.06, 05:06 PM
it has a sloped lip and unless your car is slammed, there should be good enough clearance. it might get interesting on rcp tracks that have warped tiles or sloped surfaces.

whats interesting about this approach is it takes a completely different tack than the dnano where it's built into the car. i think they could have glued these to replacement chassis kits just as easily but due to the nature of the chassis being replaced every so often, it might get cost prohibitive considering they are likely to jack the cost up a couple 100% over the cost of the rfid tag.

being modular also allow us to tinker with it. who knows, we may be able to peel or cut it out and place it other places with little to no drop in reliability?

fliz
2009.03.29, 12:54 AM
guys, do u know where i can get one..

Draconious
2009.03.29, 01:28 AM
No doubt some one wil make a paper thin carbon fiber plate to tape/glue it to that mounts in the same place. Just gave a bunch of part makers ideas ;)

If anyone has the width of that thing, please let me know, going to be fun fitting that on the MiX...

arch2b
2009.04.19, 10:48 AM
the user manual for the dnano home edition system is online. there are some interesting points within.
the exact link to the lap timer manual is here (http://www.kyosho.com/jpn/support/instructionmanual/dnano/pdf/IC_Tag_Lap_Counter_HE_Manual_EN.pdf).

the technical guide can be found here (http://www.kyosho.com/jpn/support/instructionmanual/dnano/pdf/ICtagLapCounterTechnicalGuide.pdf).

・This system cannot measure two or more cars passing over the measuring line at
exactly the same time. If this occurs, lap times will also not be recorded.
・If one car is stopped on the measuring line (or within the effective measurement
range of the Lap Time Detector), all other cars will not be able to be counted. (The
count for the stopped car will continue until the time set at Lap Count Span has been
reached). In this case, remove the stopped car from the measuring line.

*Use a USB cable which is less than 1.5 meters in length with
A - miniB plugs. Reliable data transfer can be affected with
cables longer than 1.5 meters. Also, do not use USB extension
leads.

Compatible to track width up to 970mm. Compatible with 50 size Kyosho (RCP) urethane track

leonen
2010.09.06, 10:22 AM
Where can this system be bought ?

arch2b
2010.09.06, 10:45 AM
any regional kyosho distributor.

bevo
2011.02.02, 06:11 PM
This thread has been dead for awhile, but I hope I still get an answer.

Here is what I've gathered so far about the Kyosho system, someone let me know if I'm wrong, because it seems like the best deal for a small club.
1. I can use a flipside program to run it and use the cheap generic tags for my mini z that costs around 50 cents.

2. It's pretty much the old core system with a little nicer loop and a different name.

3. I'm assuming that the flipside software is very good, and I will be able to run races pretty much however I want.

As far as ordering one I have called around and any authorized Kyosho dealer can get one. They just don't seem to be used in the U.S. very much, so not many people seem to know much about them.

ChiMiniRc
2011.02.02, 08:52 PM
This thread has been dead for awhile, but I hope I still get an answer.

Here is what I've gathered so far about the Kyosho system, someone let me know if I'm wrong, because it seems like the best deal for a small club.
1. I can use a flipside program to run it and use the cheap generic tags for my mini z that costs around 50 cents.

2. It's pretty much the old core system with a little nicer loop and a different name.

3. I'm assuming that the flipside software is very good, and I will be able to run races pretty much however I want.

As far as ordering one I have called around and any authorized Kyosho dealer can get one. They just don't seem to be used in the U.S. very much, so not many people seem to know much about them.


Have you thought about the I-lap system?
For less than $300 you can get the decoder, 2 overheads, and 2 transponders. For the cost of the Kyosho system you can get 4 transponders. You also are guaranteed a lap count even if multiple cars cross the line at the same time. And since it is infrared, you don't have to worry about RF interferance where you are racing.

bevo
2011.02.02, 09:02 PM
I thought about it, but there will be about 10 of us, so you have to add another 300$ to the price of that for the transponders. With the kyosho one it sounds like you can get 10 generic tags for 5$. And if anyone else gets into it, or shows up I can just hand them a 50 cent tag and they are ready to go.

The entire reason I'm wanting the kyosho one is so that no one will have to buy transponders.
I really don't know though. I think the Kyosho one runs about 350$, The guy from overstockrc is going to let me know what he can sell it for sometime this week.

pinwc4
2011.02.02, 09:18 PM
This thread has been dead for awhile, but I hope I still get an answer.

Here is what I've gathered so far about the Kyosho system, someone let me know if I'm wrong, because it seems like the best deal for a small club.
1. I can use a flipside program to run it and use the cheap generic tags for my mini z that costs around 50 cents.

2. It's pretty much the old core system with a little nicer loop and a different name.

3. I'm assuming that the flipside software is very good, and I will be able to run races pretty much however I want.

As far as ordering one I have called around and any authorized Kyosho dealer can get one. They just don't seem to be used in the U.S. very much, so not many people seem to know much about them.

Just as a note the Kyosho hardware is very different than the Core system and to use generic tags with the Flip Side software and the Kyosho lap counter you have to initialize them. I have a separate program on the site to do this. It is very easy to do but the generic tags will not work with the Kyosho lap counter until this is done. This initialization only has to be done once to each tag when they are new, it does not have to be done each time the are used.

herman
2011.02.02, 10:13 PM
hmm... you might want to contact pnwc4 (developer of flipside) and ask him yourself...

www.flipsideracing.org

or look at the flipside support thread (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=150)

from this thread (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31639)
===
Currently the Flip Side Racing software is limited in its hardware support. Here is a list what is supported so far and what has been requested

Supported Lap Counting Hardware

* Core Speedway
* Kyosho IC Lap Counter Home Edition
* I-Lap
* Robotronic
* GKA9805 (Global KeyAccess UHF EPC G2 RFID reader, not Core/Kyosho compatible)
* WanhaRacing (custom hardware not for sale, yet)

===
so it looks like you might be able to run the software on the kyosho system...

hope this helps... :D



do let us know what you did so that others may know too... :D

herman
2011.02.02, 10:17 PM
dooh... was composing the above when pnwc4 and chiminirc posted...

bevo
2011.02.02, 10:33 PM
Just as a note the Kyosho hardware is very different than the Core system and to use generic tags with the Flip Side software and the Kyosho lap counter you have to initialize them. I have a separate program on the site to do this. It is very easy to do but the generic tags will not work with the Kyosho lap counter until this is done. This initialization only has to be done once to each tag when they are new, it does not have to be done each time the are used.

Thanks alot for the input.
So it sounds like I can, run generic tags, and run races that track laps and lap times(someone said the Kyosho counter only counted laps with no times, I'm assuming they were wrong).
Are there certain generic tags I need to buy?
And why doesn't more people in the U.S. use this lap counter? It seems like the best one to get people started because there would be plenty of house tags to use if someone doesn't have a transponder.

pinwc4
2011.02.03, 10:04 AM
Thanks alot for the input.
So it sounds like I can, run generic tags, and run races that track laps and lap times(someone said the Kyosho counter only counted laps with no times, I'm assuming they were wrong).
Are there certain generic tags I need to buy?
And why doesn't more people in the U.S. use this lap counter? It seems like the best one to get people started because there would be plenty of house tags to use if someone doesn't have a transponder.

You need ISO 15693 RFID tags. We always use these tags from TI:

TI 76mm x 45mm tag (http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsjLMBIknjmkjmlsMSF tk%2frE1PZCHFNgTI%3d)

The smaller tags may work as well but you may have to experiment with where to mount them to get reliable detection.
TI 45mm x 45mm tag (http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsjLMBIknjmkjmlsMSF tk%2frts38wK0kRKs%3d)
TI 38mm x 23mm tag (http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsjLMBIknjmkjmlsMSF tk%2fr2vJKBl8kpJg%3d)

As for why people are not using this lap counter, I am not sure if they are or are not. I do see many people downloading the init program for RFID tags each month so there are some people using generic tags with the Kyosho IC Tag lap counter. Plus all those clubs that run Dnano's do not have to initialize them for it to work. I have no metric but it does look like quite a few people own them. I just never hear from most of the people that download my software.

bevo
2011.02.03, 10:10 AM
You need ISO 15693 RFID tags. We always use these tags from TI:

TI 76mm x 45mm tag (http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsjLMBIknjmkjmlsMSF tk%2frE1PZCHFNgTI%3d)

The smaller tags may work as well but you may have to experiment with where to mount them to get reliable detection.
TI 45mm x 45mm tag (http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsjLMBIknjmkjmlsMSF tk%2frts38wK0kRKs%3d)
TI 38mm x 23mm tag (http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsjLMBIknjmkjmlsMSF tk%2fr2vJKBl8kpJg%3d)

As for why people are not using this lap counter, I am not sure if they are or are not. I do see many people downloading the init program for RFID tags each month so there are some people using generic tags with the Kyosho IC Tag lap counter. Plus all those clubs that run Dnano's do not have to initialize them for it to work. I have no metric but it does look like quite a few people own them. I just never hear from most of the people that download my software.

I m placing my order today for one, so I'm sure you will hear from me some.

bmartin1983
2011.02.10, 01:27 PM
I am about to open a mini z track and a dnano track running the kyosho lap monitor system. I just placed a id tag order for the mouser id tags I will post if they work for sure or not,

the track i'm running is from hobby town USA i bought there used track since they don't use it no more. I will also have a big L rcp track setup and a mini 96 rcp track not all three tracks will be going at the same time till i get my garage built for the tracks. If you are located in Cincinnati, oh area send me an email and hopefully in the next 2 weeks ill have something setup to run the tracks will always be changing. I get bored really fast. If enough people want to race I will start a series event that will run every 3 months and have a final race at the end of the year. any input or rule ideas be perfect..

scale of cars will be from 1/24 to 1/46

with different classes stock class and mod

ChiMiniRc
2011.02.10, 01:52 PM
I am about to open a mini z track and a dnano track running the kyosho lap monitor system. I just placed a id tag order for the mouser id tags I will post if they work for sure or not,

the track i'm running is from hobby town USA i bought there used track since they don't use it no more. I will also have a big L rcp track setup and a mini 96 rcp track not all three tracks will be going at the same time till i get my garage built for the tracks. If you are located in Cincinnati, oh area send me an email and hopefully in the next 2 weeks ill have something setup to run the tracks will always be changing. I get bored really fast. If enough people want to race I will start a series event that will run every 3 months and have a final race at the end of the year. any input or rule ideas be perfect..

scale of cars will be from 1/24 to 1/46

with different classes stock class and mod

Good for you! Do you have any Local Hobby Shops that you can print up a flyer for? It takes a while to get a group going. Having some spare cars for people to drive helps alot.

bevo
2011.02.16, 09:28 PM
I got my kysho lap counter today and tried it out with the flipside software and generic tags with my mini z and rcp track. I couldn't get it to work for almost 2 hours. I was trying it out laying the loop on my carpet and setting my car body with the tag in it directly on the loop. This does not work. It needs some space between the tag and the loop. I decided to go and put it under the track, and it worked perfect. It missed a couple laps using it at the end of my straight, so I moved after a turn and it never missed another lap.
First impression is that it works very well as long as you don't put it in a high speed section. I was only running one car tonight, but tomorrow I get some more tags in the mail and will get to run a few cars at once. All in all it seems like a great deal at around 325$ with 70 cent tags.