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eztuner12
2009.01.20, 05:25 PM
Hello Gentlemen.
I noticed that PN racing has some new motor cans, and they seemed to be the same can as ATM, same brushes as well. Only difference is that this PN new cans, in place of cooling holes, they have a hurricane like symbol. Does this mean that PN will use similar armatures as ATM. Perhaps same excellent ATM quality and longevity? Or conceivably PN and ATM came up with some strategically business joint-venture, in line to confront the actual world economy scenario? Which will reduce production cost and hopefully selling price in order to maintain the mini scale hobby alive
Any additional comments or info???
Thanks,
Cheers

color01
2009.01.20, 06:18 PM
Although nobody but Philip himself can answer that question (and probably wouldn't be able to without divluging his secrets), I would think that he finally found a supplier for the better motor cans at a better price, which is why it took him so long to make the switch. I wouldn't think too much into this. :)

eztuner12
2009.01.20, 06:33 PM
Although nobody but Philip himself can answer that question (and probably wouldn't be able to without divluging his secrets), I would think that he finally found a supplier for the better motor cans at a better price, which is why it took him so long to make the switch. I wouldn't think too much into this. :)

Beyond doubt, for our benefit & enjoyment, right?:):):D
Thanks Philip;).
Cheers

ianc
2009.01.21, 11:10 AM
Haven't seen them. Any pics? How's the price?

ianc

eztuner12
2009.01.21, 11:50 AM
Hi ianc,
Visit PN racing web, they have it there, it is exactly ATM can, top bearing cover & brushes.
I don’t really know if I can copy from them and post it here, you know “copy right” laws
Something very good about this, is the fact that since PN will sell Armatures by them selves that will fit on these new cans, now we can keep using the cans when the armatures are wear-out, and assemble our own motors too, some thing we couldn’t do with ATM motors excellent step from PN Racing.
Cheers.

ianc
2009.01.21, 03:25 PM
Oh I see. I was thinking you were referring to ATM's M1 endbell can.

These are the 'quick change' brush type. I tried a couple of those, but wasn't really crazy about them...

Thanks for the info though,

ianc

Traveler
2009.01.21, 03:37 PM
I saw these but I really like their current cans.

I wonder if these new cans will have the same dimentions as the ATM cans. ATM actually has two sizes, the second known as thick. The reason I ask is because I recently had an Anima motor that was acting funny and I determined it was binding in the can. I tried the armature in an ATM can but it did not fit (too long). What I'd like to know is will the old PN armatures fit the new PN cans???

eztuner12
2009.01.21, 09:03 PM
I saw these but I really like their current cans.

I wonder if these new cans will have the same dimentions as the ATM cans. ATM actually has two sizes, the second known as thick. The reason I ask is because I recently had an Anima motor that was acting funny and I determined it was binding in the can. I tried the armature in an ATM can but it did not fit (too long). What I'd like to know is will the old PN armatures fit the new PN cans???

Well, for what I can appreciate on the photos, is the same ATM cans, as I mentioned, in place of the cooling holes,they have some other design. Still I can be wrong
Cheers

eztuner12
2009.01.21, 09:08 PM
Oh

I tried a couple of those, but wasn't really crazy about them...

ianc

Hi ianc
Are you refering to the new PN cans, or the quick change ATM cans:confused:
Thx
Cheers

crazyracer
2009.01.22, 12:14 AM
Hi ianc,
Visit PN racing web, they have it there, it is exactly ATM can, top bearing cover & brushes.
I don’t really know if I can copy from them and post it here, you know “copy right” laws
Something very good about this, is the fact that since PN will sell Armatures by them selves that will fit on these new cans, now we can keep using the cans when the armatures are wear-out, and assemble our own motors too, some thing we couldn’t do with ATM motors excellent step from PN Racing.
Cheers.


This is Tamiya 4WD mini toy car motor, before 12 years products.

Just over 10 year patent time now, but ATM T1 motor made in 2003, I hope this information make you more clear.

http://www.tamiya.com/english/rcmn4wd/parts/15186.gif
http://www.tamiya-4wd.com/shop/images/tamiya_for_kids/mini_series_parts/b_15186.jpg

eztuner12
2009.01.22, 12:55 AM
Nice looking motor , I like the near pinion gear shaft side vents. Does it have cooling holes on the bottom too?
Thanks for the info crazyracer;)
Cheers

Traveler
2009.01.22, 06:27 AM
I think the point Philip is making is that what is commonly referred to as the ATM can is not an ATM design and was in use by Tamiya before ATM began using it. Apparently the patent has expired and others can use this design without legal issues.

eztuner12
2009.01.22, 02:56 PM
I think the point Philip is making is that what is commonly referred to as the ATM can is not an ATM design and was in use by Tamiya before ATM began using it. Apparently the patent has expired and others can use this design without legal issues.

Hi Traveler,
Yep Philip was very clear, but thanks for the extra comment perhaps some other reader didnít relatively got the message;)
Cheers

ianc
2009.01.22, 03:02 PM
Are you refering to the new PN cans, or the quick change ATM cans

Both, since they seem to use the same brush mechanism. I tried them and experienced very rapid brush wear. The quick change is not really that 'quick' either, as you still must desolder the wires and caps to change them.

I much prefer the M1 endbell design...

ianc

eztuner12
2009.01.22, 03:19 PM
Both, since they seem to use the same brush mechanism. I tried them and experienced very rapid brush wear. The quick change is not really that 'quick' either, as you still must desolder the wires and caps to change them.

I much prefer the M1 endbell design...

ianc

I agree 100% with ya, about both, wear-out and so cal quick change:rolleyes:.
I thought the fast wear of the brush, was due to the material ATM used in line to prolong the Comm. live, I guess I was totally wrong.
About the ATM M-1 endbell, I have not try it jet, I really use my motors and wear out the comms fast, certainly due to the extensive use, and since ATM do not sell separately armatures as PN do, I just keep on with PN products, perchance now as PN would sell armatures that will fit the M-1, I certainly will try it. Unfortunately I canít build my own armatures like you do, and you guys that build armatures donít sell them:(. Hope you did:D.
Thx man;)
Cheers

ianc
2009.01.23, 11:02 AM
Unfortunately I canít build my own armatures like you do, and you guys that build armatures donít sell them

Anyone of your obvious ingenuity can easily wind an arm Richard. All it takes is a donor arm, some magnet wire, a little solder, tough fingers and some patience!

ianc

eztuner12
2009.01.23, 12:53 PM
Anyone of your obvious ingenuity can easily wind an arm Richard. All it takes is a donor arm, some magnet wire, a little solder, tough fingers and some patience!

ianc

Hi ianc.;)
It sound good, perhaps you can post a tutorial on this thread describing most important keys to take in consideration, which includes:
How and at which point of the arm should we start winding.
Winding direction and pattern
How to end the winding and where
Different wires gages and performance achieved to gages.
And so on.
This tutorial would definitely be of great help to those of us that want to experiment on building some Motors.
Hope you or some of you that has the know how, will conceder this proposal:D.
Cheers

ianc
2009.01.23, 01:40 PM
Hi Richard,

I think that's a good idea; I don't see many tutorial-type threads here, which is a pity. I will undertake to do that next time I wind an arm which will probably be in the near future, although I will probably start a new thread for it. Thanks for the suggestion,

ianc

eztuner12
2009.01.23, 01:49 PM
hi richard,

i think that's a good idea; i don't see many tutorial-type threads here, which is a pity. I will undertake to do that next time i wind an arm which will probably be in the near future, although i will probably start a new thread for it. Thanks for the suggestion,

ianc

:Dthank you!!!!:D

Felix2010
2009.01.24, 06:21 PM
I'm liking these new PN motor cans. I do hope the quality of these can's ball bearings are better overall then the Atomic motor can's BB's. I've had more than a few ATM BB cans that had bad bearings - Cleaning, drying, lube - Nothing helped, the BB's were just crappy.
The laser-etching on this new PN can is purrty cool; And you can get either ferrite mags or Neos; Additionally they come with silver brushes which is pretty sweet. I hope PN offers some carbon brushes too. Maybe even a "Silver-Carbon" brush like the 10CR45 but designed for the v1 PN can.

I will say the original PN motor cans were (still are) good. I still use my old PN motors: I've got an Anima (I put in PN's silver/carbon brushes, which are totally bitchin'), an S01 (Old-School mod, yeah baby), a couple SPeedy 05's (great bang-for-buck motor), and a few more. Then I have my "LL3/TSM-custom winds" that are built with PN v1 cans.
Then came the PN Ultra BB can, a great step up: Open endbell, much better cooling, visible comm, easy cleaning.
But for more consistent brush tension after beatings & scorching temps from hard racing (modified-class especially); And for better brush design in general, I think PN has gone with a proven motor/brush design that will advance the PN line of motors to even higher levels.:)

ProfoxCG
2009.01.25, 05:21 PM
can that Tamiya Plasma be run in a mini-z? - has anyone tired it does it more the car?

EMU
2009.01.25, 06:10 PM
Do a search for Plasmatomic. It is the Plasma Dash armature in an Atomic BB can with Neo magnets. I have one with Neo and one with Ferrite magnets for different feels. Both were the best motors that I have used in my Mini Monsters. Loads of torque and lots of RPMs. Almost undriveable in an MR02, must have fet stack.

ProfoxCG
2009.01.25, 08:35 PM
i was thinking more for an AWD racing application?

Felix2010
2009.01.26, 07:58 AM
...Loads of torque and lots of RPMs.

The PlasmaDash armature is no joke. High torque, extra-high Rpms - Extra hot.

Almost undriveable in an MR02...

Sounds about right.:)

In an AWD it's still a handful IMO. If you do want to give it a try in your MA010, I would recommend keeping runtime very short. Your chassis will thank you.:)

ProfoxCG
2009.01.26, 09:32 AM
...In an AWD it's still a handful IMO. If you do want to give it a try in your MA010, I would recommend keeping runtime very short. Your chassis will thank you.:)

why short ? heat issues?

Skv012a
2009.01.26, 10:40 AM
The PlasmaDash armature is no joke. High torque, extra-high Rpms - Extra hot.


^ sounds like a great motor, but heat is bad. What about custom chassis with extra cooling? Also, can 2.4 fets handle it?

crazyracer
2009.01.26, 11:52 AM
Don't run PlasmaDash armature on Mini-Z, i remeber this motor is 26 turn or 29 turn, should be problem on Mini-Z ESC.

eztuner12
2009.01.26, 11:56 AM
I'm liking these new PN motor cans. I do hope the quality of these can's ball bearings are better overall then the Atomic motor can's BB's. I've had more than a few ATM BB cans that had bad bearings - Cleaning, drying, lube - Nothing helped, the BB's were just crappy.
The laser-etching on this new PN can is purrty cool; And you can get either ferrite mags or Neos; Additionally they come with silver brushes which is pretty sweet. I hope PN offers some carbon brushes too. Maybe even a "Silver-Carbon" brush like the 10CR45 but designed for the v1 PN can.

I will say the original PN motor cans were (still are) good. I still use my old PN motors: I've got an Anima (I put in PN's silver/carbon brushes, which are totally bitchin'), an S01 (Old-School mod, yeah baby), a couple SPeedy 05's (great bang-for-buck motor), and a few more. Then I have my "LL3/TSM-custom winds" that are built with PN v1 cans.
Then came the PN Ultra BB can, a great step up: Open endbell, much better cooling, visible comm, easy cleaning.
But for more consistent brush tension after beatings & scorching temps from hard racing (modified-class especially); And for better brush design in general, I think PN has gone with a proven motor/brush design that will advance the PN line of motors to even higher levels.:)

I agree with you about the PN Ultra BB can, they are very good cans and light too.
About PN armatures, love the 37T and the 35T HW Balanced, but they donít last, very low longevity compare to ATM Comms specially the 35T that comes with the T2, a rally pity ATM donít sell individual Comms. I really hope that the new PN Comms will last longer.
Cheers

eztuner12
2009.01.26, 12:05 PM
Don't run PlasmaDash armature on Mini-Z, i remeber this motor is 26 turn or 29 turn, should be problem on Mini-Z ESC.

Very thankful for your data. I was really considering a plasmadish armature for my 4wd in my quest for more all @ speed, in line to satisfy my driving needs.
BTW Canít wait for the new PN motors and armatures to be released, very enthusiastic about it Mr. PN:D
Cheers

crazyracer
2009.01.26, 01:10 PM
Very thankful for your data. I was really considering a plasmadish armature for my 4wd in my quest for more all @ speed, in line to satisfy my driving needs.
BTW Canít wait for the new PN motors and armatures to be released, very enthusiastic about it Mr. PN:D
Cheers


eztuner : thank you, the new can with new armatures will be release soon, same motor of PNWC 2008 modified motor, we have 33 turn and 35 turn, and also sell the armatures too.

eztuner12
2009.01.26, 01:50 PM
^Just expectagular news!!!! :eek:
ThxxxÖ:):):D
Cheers

Felix2010
2009.01.28, 06:18 PM
why short ? heat issues?
The P-Dash armature draws very high current - Chassis-melting current.:eek:
A stock ASF PCB's 2x2 3010 Fets would fry; A 3x2 4562 Fet stack (6 Fets total) is a good minimum & would be able to handle the PlasmaD arm in one of the PN BB cans, but only for a short run. If runtime drags on, the Fets will fail eventually from heat.

I was really considering a Plasmadash armature for my 4wd in my quest for more all @ speed, in line to satisfy my driving needs.
Richard - You could try a PlasmaDash arm in one of the new PN BB cans w/ Neos. You could even run it in your AWD. Just be very careful. The PlasmaDash is a great armature for sure.:D

eztuner : thank you, the new can with new armatures will be release soon, same motor of PNWC 2008 modified motor, we have 33 turn and 35 turn, and also sell the armatures too.
I can't wait to try the new PNWC motors out Philip. :D
Nothing but good comments about them from people at last year's PNWC.
So the 33t & 35t armatures will be sold separately this year, also? Very cool news for us motor junkies:cool:

eztuner12
2009.01.28, 08:09 PM
Thx for the info Felix2010
Now I only think PN 33T & 35T armatures. Just waiting for them to arrive YA!!! (NOW!!!):eek: Canít wait longer Mr. PN, your killing me!!!!
Cheers;)

azn87
2009.01.31, 11:17 PM
before i got into mini z i used to play with the tamiya mini 4wd which the p-dash came from. in my opion the jet-dash motor which is discontinued, was way faster on those cars. the p-dash was way too tight between the brushes and the canister i think i got some used motors from that still. if i was going to try the p-dash on awd asf, how many fet do i need minimum, right now i have a total of 16 on the board right now

Felix2010
2009.02.02, 10:13 AM
azn87 - What type of Fet are you using?:eek:

16 total - You have an 2x8 Fet stack? Wow:D How are they mounted on the board - 4 Fets on each set of Fet-pads? Or a 2x6 on top (12) + 2x2 on bottom (4)?
That should be good, I would guess.:confused: Don't hold me to these guesstimates. Just a few things to consider:
-> Important! Run the PDash in your AWD at your own risk;
-> Fet stacks lose the ability to dissipate heat when stacked. The higher the stack, the higher the chance for one or more Fet failure within that stack;
-> As I mentioned in my previous post IMO a good minimum for 2wd is a 2x3 4562 stack; For AWD 2x3 4562's might be OK for short runs (5 min, +/- a couple min), Not hammering the throttle; 2x4 4562's (8 total - 2x2 top, 2x2 bottom) would be better;
-> Make sure you have as little drivetrain friction possible;
-> Keep runtime short and sweet.:) Unless you like the "melted chassis" look.

azn87
2009.02.03, 01:16 AM
i was thinking about making mine own mod motor. ill take the new pn racing can and neo mags with the jet dash motor with coms drop from brake in because i havent used it in like 2 years.

Felix2010
2009.02.03, 05:20 PM
azn87 - About the Jet-Dash motor: How big is the comm compared to say the PlasmaDash's ? Is the Jet-Dash comm a fat comm like the Plasma Dash, or is it a regular-size comm like a Kyosho box-stock motor? If you could measure the diameter even better. I have never owned a Jet-Dash, but the Rpm&Amp specs are similar to the PlasmaDash's so I'm wondering how similar the comm is especially, but also the winding too.
I appreciate the info, thank you in advance :)

azn87
2009.02.04, 01:44 AM
i dont know much about motors, but specs are very close and im not sure about the comm, i dont know how to measure the comm

ProfoxCG
2009.02.04, 09:40 AM
"diameter" with a digital caliper

ianc
2009.02.04, 11:39 AM
Just as an aside, I'm trying to work out the desirability of the fat comm.

I recently got some used PN motors, and noted that the Xeric and the Anima had the fat comm, where the Speedy AWD and Speedy 05 didn't.

From a theoretical standpoint, I can't see the difference in performance. The material of the comm seems the same thickness, it's just that the diameter is larger.

What is the benefit?

ianc

eztuner12
2009.02.05, 11:10 AM
Perhaps there is a differential ratio relation between the RPM of the fat or narrow Comm and the armature RPM.
So many RPM of the armature in relation with so many RPM of the Comm.
What I know for a fact is that Fat Comms provide high torque than narrow Cooms and perchance more @ power.
Just a supposition.
Cheers.

Traveler
2009.02.21, 06:26 AM
The space was a question I had earlier in this thread. Hate to hear the new PN cans have this same issue as the ATM cans. I'm not clear on how you made it work. Can you show on the pics what material you removed?

Another solution (according to Philip @ Kenon) is to adjust the brass bushing on the comm by securing the bushing and tapping the comm lightly until the spacer moves. Ideal play of comm in can when sealed is <1mm.

Hope this explanation is clear.

eztuner12
2009.02.25, 03:20 PM
Hi guys
One question. Since the new PN armatures donít fit properly on the new cans, would the new PN 33T & 35T armature fit best on the old PN can?:confused:
Thx for the response.
Cheers

Traveler
2009.02.27, 11:23 PM
Hi Traveler,
Sorry, it was late yesterday and pictures weren't the best... if you look at the endbell there are 4 corners that interlock into the motor can. Those are the parts I dremeled and rounded. I never had any troubles like this with my atomic cans, I've had over 10 of them too.

Thanks man! I think I see where you removed some material. I have to say I am VERY disappointed with these cans!

I picked up a couple while visiting Kenon a couple of weeks ago but didn't do anything with them until today. Although I am a big fan of PN products and generally find them superior, these motor cans are not the case. Like you, I ran into fitment issues. The endbell and can fit was poor. I was trying to install the new PN 33T arm into the new PN can with standard mag to see how it performs compared to the 33T motor (awesome motor by the way) which comes with neo mags.

The first issue I ran into is that the metal tabs on the can are not long enough to wrap around the endbell and hold it securely. In part because the endbell doesn't fit into the can properly. My solution was to remove some of the material on the endbell where the tabs fold into. Unfortunately, I had to bend the tabs 3 times (close, open, close) and broke one off! :mad: The material the can is made of seems a lot more brittle than other cans I've dealt with.

I chucked the PN can and put the new 33T arm in an HE Atomic can and am breaking it in now.

Over all, the new PN cans are poor quality. I wish they would bring back the previous version with open endbell.

Traveler
2009.02.27, 11:28 PM
Hi guys
One question. Since the new PN armatures donít fit properly on the new cans, would the new PN 33T & 35T armature fit best on the old PN can?:confused:
Thx for the response.
Cheers

Richard,

Its not that the new PN arms don't fit the new PN cans. They do! Although I had to adjust the brass spacer on the front of the arm shaft. The problem with the new cans is the endbell and can don't fit together properly.

I'm sure the new arms would fit the old cans, and you'd probably have a better setup, allthough you might need to adjust the brass spacer in the opposite direction (out).

Ideally, you don't want the arm to move more than 0.5 mm in the can when closed.

eztuner12
2009.03.02, 03:02 PM
Richard,

Its not that the new PN arms don't fit the new PN cans. They do! Although I had to adjust the brass spacer on the front of the arm shaft. The problem with the new cans is the endbell and can don't fit together properly.

I'm sure the new arms would fit the old cans, and you'd probably have a better setup, allthough you might need to adjust the brass spacer in the opposite direction (out).

Ideally, you don't want the arm to move more than 0.5 mm in the can when closed.

Hi Traveler
Ok!
Can you post some pics of what you have done to fit it properly please.
How can I move the bras spacer without damaging the arm, and secure it so it wonít move later on?
Thanks!
Cheers

Traveler
2009.03.02, 07:00 PM
Richard,

See pics posted by BLT456 on previous page of this thread. I don't know how to link to it.

As for the brass spacer, I drilled a hole in a piece of 2x4 that the shaft would fit into but deeper than the shaft. Insert shaft into hole up to brass spacer and tap other end of shaft lightly with small hammer until you get the right spacing. This requires several fittings in the can. The problem is if you get the spacer too close to the armature, you may not be able to move it back!

Good luck!

eztuner12
2009.03.02, 08:03 PM
Richard,

See pics posted by BLT456 on previous page of this thread. I don't know how to link to it.

As for the brass spacer, I drilled a hole in a piece of 2x4 that the shaft would fit into but deeper than the shaft. Insert shaft into hole up to brass spacer and tap other end of shaft lightly with small hammer until you get the right spacing. This requires several fittings in the can. The problem is if you get the spacer too close to the armature, you may not be able to move it back!

Good luck!

Thxxx so much for the info:)
Cheers

eztuner12
2009.03.03, 12:16 AM
Well, I finally got ahold of a can and a few armatures from Rckenon. The mount is very shiny, so fingerprints show. I ran into an endbell fitment issue; the endbell seemed too thick to fit in the end of the can. My resolve was to dremel off (w/ cutting wheel) the little four corners at the end of the endbell cap. These insert at the angles in the can. I dremeld them off and sanded the edges round and it fits snug now.
Here are some pictures of the can

Hi blt456
Did you had to dremel down the new PN motor can, to be able to fit the arm inside the can?:confused:
Thanks for the reply
Cheers

eztuner12
2009.03.07, 01:49 AM
Hey eztuner12,
All I had to do was dremel off the corners of the endbell and round them off with some sandpaper. This mod should take no more than 5 minutes and you just have to lightly dremel each corner. I would advise doing two corners on the same side first to see how much more of the corners you need to shave down. This will help to keep a tight seal without any slop in the endbell due to having too much endbell shaved off.

If you have anymore questions, feel free to ask. I was reading that you wanted to know how to wind an armature. If you want, I can message you to show you how to wind an armature. LMK via private message.

Hi blt
Thanks for clearing it up for me.
I saw on one of your pics, you shaved down the opposite side to the cover endball of the can itself, any particular reason for that??
About the armature winding, your proposal sounds great:eek::), perhaps you can e-mail to me that info to ezcorp@codetel.net.do or gerardinosonia@bellsouth.net if it is to long and wont fit in a PM.
I certainly would apresiate that valuable, how to.
Thx man.;)
Cheers

Traveler
2009.03.07, 09:12 PM
Hey eztuner12,
I shaved down all 4 corners, but started with 2 corners. This is to best measure the amount of needed work on the endbell. Which side are you talking about that I shaved off? I looked at the endbell again and the only parts shaved down are the 4 corners. I'll work on the how to this weekend and send it to you during this week hopefully.

BLT,

Would you send me you How To too? I'm still bent on fitting the new 33T PN arm in the new PN can with Fe mags to see what happens. But I need to have a good fit and no binding.

Traveler
2009.03.07, 10:12 PM
Thanks! Will keep you guys posted...

eztuner12
2009.03.09, 06:28 PM
Hey eztuner12,
I shaved down all 4 corners, but started with 2 corners. This is to best measure the amount of needed work on the endbell. Which side are you talking about that I shaved off? I looked at the endbell again and the only parts shaved down are the 4 corners. I'll work on the how to this weekend and send it to you during this week hopefully.

Hi blt
I am reffering to this pic IMG_2032.jpg (315.7 KB, 30 views) you posted on pag 3
Thx