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View Full Version : What would you put in a new, tricked out, F1?


rocketman
2009.03.26, 09:41 AM
I just picked up an F1 and it is on its way. I plan on putting in all the "Good Stuff." Like to hear from anybody on what they would run for Diff setup with 64p gears and anything else they have an opinion on. Have 2.4ghz board already on order. Anything else is open. Thanks in advance for your help.

MantisMMA
2009.03.28, 12:56 AM
kyosho diff,PN pod, kyosho front 1deg knuckles, ATM +1 tie rod, K30 fts k20 r tires, ceramic bearings!!

EMU
2009.03.28, 02:03 AM
-ATM motormount (or PN if you want to figure out how to use it with a disc damper)
-ATM Disc Damper
-Kyosho top shock
-Kyosho carbon side plates
-ATM F1 ball diff (have D shaped rings)/PN 64p spur set/Reflex Ceramic balls
-Kyosho 1d front knuckles
-ATM +1 tie rod
-Avid bearings (found at ReflexRacing)
-Kyosho 20d rear tires, front tires vary from track to track. I like the Kyosho 20, 23 or 25 slicks, but my tire choice really depends on the specific track and layout. the 30 grooved feel like they have a little too much initial bite for my driving style. Most people like the 30 grooved better than the slicks.

rocketman
2009.03.28, 02:55 PM
kyosho diff,PN pod, kyosho front 1deg knuckles, ATM +1 tie rod, K30 fts k20 r tires, ceramic bearings!!


Thanks for the input Marcus, Why do you like the Kyosho Diff over the ATM and what do you think about the top shock from Kyosho?

rocketman
2009.03.28, 03:00 PM
-ATM motormount (or PN if you want to figure out how to use it with a disc damper)
-ATM Disc Damper
-Kyosho top shock
-Kyosho carbon side plates
-ATM F1 ball diff (have D shaped rings)/PN 64p spur set/Reflex Ceramic balls
-Kyosho 1d front knuckles
-ATM +1 tie rod
-Avid bearings (found at ReflexRacing)
-Kyosho 20d rear tires, front tires vary from track to track. I like the Kyosho 20, 23 or 25 slicks, but my tire choice really depends on the specific track and layout. the 30 grooved feel like they have a little too much initial bite for my driving style. Most people like the 30 grooved better than the slicks.


Emu, thanks for your suggestions, I have the PN motor mount but if the ATM is more workable I may go with that as I also have the atm disc damper. You suggest the disk damper and the top shock from Kyosho, What will that get me in suspension performance?

pfcparts
2009.03.28, 11:49 PM
If I recall correctly, the shaft on the ATM F1 diff is a horrible fit.
It's about a mm or 2 off.

Unless they revised it I'd stay away from that particular diff.


parts

mikey
2009.03.28, 11:57 PM
on my f1, i have these parts


kyosho ball bearings
kyosho ball diff
kyosho top shock
kyosho carbon side plates
kyosho kingpins
kyosho 30frts 20rears grooved
atm +2 deg camber knuckles


the only other thing i would get is some springs for the front end, other than that, its a very solid car.


it has a 07bb and a 2.4 board thats going in soon as well

EMU
2009.03.29, 03:30 AM
Parts, the diff that is available now is an entirely new diff from what I can tell (I gave away the old version). I have no issues with the shaft, although, I did not notice anything wrong with the previous shaft...

Rocketman, I find that the side spring (original/PN mounts) tend to bind where the springs contact the chassis. The disc damper gives more stability, and I find more corner speed.

I have 2 F1's. One with the PN mount, and one with the ATM mount and ATM DDS. The one with the PN mount needs front tires with less grip. I am consistantly at least .4s faster with the ATM mount. I was working on a DDS setup for the PN mount... but we havent been running F1 at the track for at least 2 months, so no further development has been going on. I am going to start working on it again soon... when I get time. I just need to make a damper plate, and find screws that are the proper length.

I like the design of the PN mount MUCH better than the ATM mount, except for one thing. The damper post height being too high (like the stock mount, but not enough material to shave it down). I tried Kawada damper post and springs (lower stack height, uses conical springs instead of cylindrical). It still was too much preload on the lower disc... I wanted to try to not have to grind holes all over the rear of the body, but I think I am just going to have to give in and raise the damper plate.

rocketman
2009.03.29, 04:06 AM
EMU, Thanks for the input. This is the kind of suggestions and thoughts I need to get the F1 car up to snuff. At least I am feeling like I am getting some good ideas. Nice and thanks a lot guys. Keep it coming cause I won't be able to race for about 4 to 5 weeks so I will have lots of practice time.

edhchoe
2009.03.29, 11:17 AM
If I recall correctly, the shaft on the ATM F1 diff is a horrible fit.
It's about a mm or 2 off.

Unless they revised it I'd stay away from that particular diff.


parts
Are you talking about the length?
I have ATM f1 diff and it seems 1.5mm too long. But it doesn't bother me. However, when used with the stock gearbox, the diff gear doesn't mesh well with the pinion gear. The only gear that works is the 8t pinion. I am looking into aluminum gearbox and a motor with drilled holes....:mad:

pfcparts
2009.03.29, 11:28 PM
Yep.

I had an earlier version a while back using the
stock gearbox.

Fine with the K diffs. No issues whatsoever and 64p
can be installed without mods. Plus its gold. :p

If the issues are fixed, seems like the atm would be
the better deal as their diffs already have the Ti shafts
and d cuts.

-----

Man, I'm getting the wrong batches and the worst luck
lol. From my last few orders, something has been missing
or has had a missing part...

atm tars missing the collars, K dnano diff missing a plate,
most recently PN missing set screws and springs, etc lol. :o

I didn't know I was on so many sheet lists. :p


parts

GoFaster
2009.03.30, 12:37 PM
The kyosho diff is the smoothest I've ever felt straight out the box.

ruf
2009.03.30, 01:04 PM
1) Alloy tie rod. Atomic is probably the easiest to get. Don't lose a race because you break the tie rod. The open-wheel nature of the F1 means that it snags corners, and once you bottom out the servo saver, you'll rip the knuckle through the tie rod end. Game over. Or you could tip-toe around the track a few inches off the rail and be 0.5s slower... your choice.

2) Stainless steel kingpins - or polish the snot out of the stockers.

3) Bearings - check out our new high grade bearings. Better than the Avids.

4) Ball diff - Kyosho is the best, but the Atomic will do. Out of the box, the Kyosho gear has a wider ball spacing which you lose when going to 64 pitch. Either way, it's the smoothest around.

5) Kyosho alloy steering knuckles - smooth delrin inserts lets the front end actually work. Kyosho is the only way to go in this category - GPM is awful, Atomic has wheelnut issues but otherwise good. Atomic is nice that it lets you use MR02 springs. Keep the knuckle/tie rod contact clean when you go alloy/alloy. If you run on a clean track, try some lube here.

6) Carbon side plates - Mostly about durability since I've had Bill Crotty hand me my own a$$ with stock plastic side plates. The Kyosho carbon plates are a lot stronger, and I won in 05 missing a chunk out of one.

7) Motor mount - PN + top spring for tight twisty stuff, Atomic + disk damper for longer sweepers. I have a feeling that butchering the PN and mounting the Atomic disk damper would yield the best of both worlds.

Check your chassis tweak and untweak it with heat if it's superbad. Delicate procedure, but worth it. Check tweak on the track, since F1's tend to oversteer to the left. Shim the right rear to compensate.

edhchoe
2009.03.30, 04:20 PM
The front suspension on my f1 as it came doesn't move up and down freely. Will stainless steel kingpins fix that problem? Do I need to buy the kingpins and knuckles or knuckles come with the SS kingpins or what??

rocketman
2009.03.30, 07:03 PM
Guys, this is great and I appreciate it a lot always like fresh ideas. I think I am going with durability on the knuckles and Tie Rod and have got most of the consesus good stuff.

For Ruf:

1)
6) Carbon side plates - Mostly about durability since I've had Bill Crotty hand me my own a$$ with stock plastic side plates. The Kyosho carbon plates are a lot stronger, and I won in 05 missing a chunk out of one.



Bill Jr. has kicked mine more than a few times. He cut his teeth at one of my tracks. Great fellow so if he and you have it that is good enough for me. I have been contemplating the Knuckles and the Tie Rod but was thinking about delrin but right now I need durability.

EMU
2009.03.30, 07:16 PM
Definitely go with an alloy tie rod. I dont run F1 very much, but have broken a lot of the red Kyosho option tie rods as well as the black stockers.

The one thing that I dislike most about the Kyosho ball diff, is the shaft. I bent one getting rear ended. Ti shaft is a must.

ruf
2009.03.30, 07:35 PM
Bill's one of those guys you hate to love or whatever. Super nice guy. So consistent if you make one mistake, you'll spend the whole race trying to catch back up. His pace has gotten a lot quicker now, so he can drop the hammer when necessary as well.

For durability, ideally you need both. I'd put the tie rod before the knuckles. Don't forget the bearings and polish the crap out of the stock kingpins. Set the tweak, grease the diff and you'll have a raceable 8/10 to 9/10 car.

ruf
2009.03.30, 07:36 PM
The one thing that I dislike most about the Kyosho ball diff, is the shaft. I bent one getting rear ended. Ti shaft is a must.Yup, I'd have to agree. Atomic or Kyosho on this one is fine, but I think the Atomic is cheaper?

edhchoe
2009.03.30, 09:29 PM
When you push the body in the front area right between the front wheels, does your car go down and up smoothly? Mine doesn't move at all.:eek::confused::(:mad:

rocketman
2009.03.31, 09:09 AM
Ruf, what diff grease do you use and what do the different greases get you in diff action.

hrdrvr
2009.03.31, 09:35 AM
When you push the body in the front area right between the front wheels, does your car go down and up smoothly? Mine doesn't move at all.:eek::confused::(:mad:

Your car should move up and down. Its not a great deal of distance, but there is definitely movement. You need to check your knuckle and king pin situation. You most likely have binding at that point due to un-polished stock king pins. For some reason even polished king pins could never give me smmoth action, so I switched to SS ones. My action is smooth now most of the time :D

The only other hting that has caused lack of movement is the delrin insert in the K knuckles, They have come loose and end up stuck at the top of the king pin, stopping the knuckle from being able to travel in the up direction.



Rocketman - I must say that you probably dont need to hear "start slow" or "one upgrade at a time", as you seem to have plenty of experience. Im going to contradict these guys a little though, and say that all you need is the alloy tie rod (I use 1d ATM), knuckles (I use 1d Kyosho), king pins, bearings, and the right tires. I spent a lot of time testing and tuning on my F1. Its a class Ive always wanted to do well in, especially since I went to the Diablo and saw the guys from HSH (and CT) tearing up the track in open wheel form.

When I went to the PNWC eastern regional last year, I had the luxury of pitting next to Mr Bill Crotty. He looked over my car, and finally suggested I mirror his car and start over. I was a little staggered when he showed me his car, and it was nearly 100% stock (It may have actually been 100%, but I dont remember for sure). I stuck it out with the alloy rod, knucks, SS pins, and bearings, but took everything else back to stock. I decided to shim out the tweak and run it like it was.

Since then Ive won the F1 class at The Thanksgiving Bash at the Beach, NekoCon11, and I recently finished second at the Spring Fling here in Myrtle Beach (there are videos for all of them floating around the forum ;). All three of those events were 'open' rules, and I still had one of the most consistant cars out there. So consistant I ran the PN 70t hand-out motor I got at the PNWC and finished in front of guys running much more power! Its become my fastest, most consistant car, and I never do anything to it.......

pinoyboy
2009.03.31, 09:43 AM
Landon's F1 is fast! When he told me his setup, it made realize that I kind of over did my setup:o. I'm actually trying to go back and redo mine starting with a new chassis.

I think F1s like to be kept simple and if its running fine, just stick with it. Like everyone said, the minimum is getting the steering(knuckles and tie rod) upgraded so you won't have any DNFs. Then get the standard tires, Kyosho 30 fronts and Kyosho 20 rears

rocketman
2009.03.31, 12:33 PM
To hrvrdr, yes, I have been around for a long time, off and on since the mid 80's to be exact, but this is a whole new game for me and I respect your opinion and when the car goes on my new RCP track it will be mostly stock and I'll move from there but I want to know what direction I should be thinking about should I run into problems. Seems to me that tweak is the great unknown variable so I will watch that closely when I unpack the chassis next week and shim as needed to get to neutral balance.

Pinoyboy, thanks for your input and you support the argument that less is more. I agree. I have raced every 10th scale car Kyosho has had since the original ultima and optima series and find that their technology has almost always been top of the line as far as stock cars/parts go and I think that is one of the selling points of Kyosho cars, with a few glaring exceptions.

Looking to avoid DNF's from HTW's, something I have become adept at in my absence from RC for the last 7 Years.

ruf
2009.03.31, 02:21 PM
The only other hting that has caused lack of movement is the delrin insert in the K knuckles, They have come loose and end up stuck at the top of the king pin, stopping the knuckle from being able to travel in the up direction.Also watch for the springs sticking in the knuckle. Had a wicked tweak I couldn't figure out until I saw that one spring wasn't seated all the way down.

Im going to contradict these guys a little though, and say that all you need is the alloy tie rod (I use 1d ATM), knuckles (I use 1d Kyosho), king pins, bearings, and the right tires.You won't hear any arguments from me, except to add a ball diff. I've run the plastic motor mount quite a bit and it works fine. Makes motor maintenance a pita though.

When I went to the PNWC eastern regional last year, I had the luxury of pitting next to Mr Bill Crotty. He looked over my car, and finally suggested I mirror his car and start over. I was a little staggered when he showed me his car, and it was nearly 100% stock (It may have actually been 100%, but I dont remember for sure). I stuck it out with the alloy rod, knucks, SS pins, and bearings, but took everything else back to stock. I decided to shim out the tweak and run it like it was.Bill is a super-good dude, and I'm lucky to share the track with him in F1 every now and then. I had to convince Philip to bring back F1 class for PNWC 2009 just so I could have another shot at stealing the crown back from him! hahaha! :D

Seriously though, Bill is a top-notch driver and he shows that the F1 can be very fast in near stock form. One thing to note is that Bill just doesn't make any mistakes. For the rest of us, the plastic side plates can break, and the Kyosho ball diff steel shaft can bend, and the plastic motor mount makes maintenance a pain. Can you go fast without them? Of course. You've got a good recipe with the tires, tie rod, knuckles, kingpins, and bearings. Shim the tweak, and a good driver can put it in the A-main almost anywhere.

ruf
2009.03.31, 02:22 PM
Ruf, what diff grease do you use and what do the different greases get you in diff action.I'll just use AE black grease. There might be better options out there, but I usually don't mess with the gear diff much.

rocketman
2009.03.31, 03:44 PM
Let me just say thanks to everyone for their help and comments. It all reminds me of this little thing we had in New Hampshire back in the stone age when 10th scale just got really going, right about the time Halsey and then Magic came to the fore. It was just an incredible group in which everyone helped each other and nobody threw a black towel over their car. It was the golden era of RC and this is the kind of thing I long for and this is what I see is available at this scale.I have met some wonderful guys and while I will always yern for the days of SRP-1's, 7 cell, 3 Minute oval heats with sidedams and 12 turns singles or 4 wheel open off-road in my Turbo Optima Mid-SE XL, this scale and more importantly the people in it are amongst the best I have ever been associated with.

Thanks to all, see you in other forums

ruf
2009.03.31, 04:05 PM
Jammin' Jay and the Magic Man! Joel came out for the KO GP and had a great time!

rocketman
2009.03.31, 04:44 PM
That was great and it will add legitimacy to the scale competitors. It is what is needed to extend the brand name of 28th scale. Pretty cool. It is pretty neat to run on the same track as the legends.

Eman
2009.04.04, 11:41 AM
What does everyone mean by " shimming the tweak " in reference to F-1s?

EMU
2009.04.04, 11:52 AM
What does everyone mean by " shimming the tweak " in reference to F-1s?
Most of the time, the motormount is not level. Which will lead to spinning out to one direction, and pushing to the other. If you put shims between the side plate and the motormount, then you even out the tweak and the car should be the same each direction.

Eman
2009.04.04, 11:58 AM
I see. Thanks.