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benmlee
2009.03.27, 12:40 PM
This is redundant, but here it is just for official introduction. The other thread kind of stole the thunder already. And never mind is already sold out.

This is a significant new product for mini-z. For the first time, there is a sophisticated suspension comprable to 1/10 scale. Mini-z has moved beyond primative sliding knuckle suspension. The last time a full scale car had a sliding knucke suspension was the Morgan 3 wheeler around the 30's. I don't think a double A-arm suspension in this scale has ever been produced.
Base on initial feedback, the performance increase is significant. Phil said he was almost beating his best lap time as soon as it was installed. After some tuning, he got a best time. Not only the best time, but almost much matching it lap after lap because the performance was consistent. This suspension can be a game changer. Mini-z might have turned the corner into more sophisticated suspensions. We will see.

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=26947&stc=1&d=1238171879

briankstan
2009.03.27, 01:01 PM
a few pictures that PN posted. :D

Here some pictures
http://pnracing.us/MR2500/MR2500-1.jpg
http://pnracing.us/MR2500/MR2500-2.jpg
http://pnracing.us/MR2500/MR2500-3.jpg

HaCo
2009.03.27, 01:31 PM
The kit:
http://www.rckenon.com/public_html/shop2/catalog/images/MR2500.jpg


http://pnracing.us/MR2500/Slide9.JPG

By changing the url of the last image you can find the complete manual, I uploaded to imageshack and made one album of it:
http://img3.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=slide2k.jpg

HaCo
2009.03.27, 01:32 PM
The gallery in full:
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6575/slide2k.th.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slide2k.jpg)
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8883/slide3g.th.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slide3g.jpg)
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4325/slide4f.th.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slide4f.jpg)
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/7812/slide5t.th.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slide5t.jpg)
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4544/slide6w.th.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slide6w.jpg)
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/4925/slide7m.th.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slide7m.jpg)
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/881/slide8f.th.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slide8f.jpg)
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/6053/slide9.th.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slide9.jpg)
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/9164/slide10w.th.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slide10w.jpg)
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2990/slide11n.th.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slide11n.jpg)

HaCo
2009.03.27, 01:33 PM
Continued:
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2808/slide12v.th.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slide12v.jpg)
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5459/slide13.th.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slide13.jpg)
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/2091/slide14s.th.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slide14s.jpg)
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7194/slide15p.th.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slide15p.jpg)

dorifto46
2009.03.27, 03:33 PM
Any ETA on when this item will be restocked? I didnt even see it avaliable on pn's site the day of release. And how much does it cost?

mleemor60
2009.03.27, 03:40 PM
Restocked on March 31st.

PNracing
2009.03.27, 03:41 PM
Any ETA on when this item will be restocked? I didnt even see it avaliable on pn's site the day of release. And how much does it cost?


Should be next 4/1/09

VAzRACER
2009.03.27, 03:46 PM
Should be next 4/1/09

What about the extended lower arms, when will those be available?

Also, does this front end use standard springs like the king pin front end or will you be releasing a spring set just for the a-arm front end?

Thank you.

Tjay
2009.03.27, 04:42 PM
Any ETA on when this item will be restocked? I didnt even see it avaliable on pn's site the day of release. And how much does it cost?

You know where to get it Ryan.. ;)

TALLGEESE
2009.03.27, 05:19 PM
Thanks for posting up the pics HaCo..

how much does it cost?

The price on PN's website is $78.88..

mikey
2009.03.27, 09:17 PM
will this front end widen the track as well? or will the front end stay within the stock width specs?

briankstan
2009.03.27, 09:19 PM
will this front end widen the track as well? or will the front end stay within the stock width specs?

they stay within stock specs.

arch2b
2009.03.27, 11:00 PM
it looks awsome! at what point does all this become over complicated though?

i'm afraid to ask what this will cost? pn isn't cheap but in my experience, you pay for the quality and excellence in design.

Red Team
2009.03.28, 01:40 PM
Thanks for posting up the pics HaCo..
The price on PN's website is $78.88..
.....................

eztuner12
2009.03.28, 02:58 PM
Hello Mr. PN.
Any plans to release this marbles front PN SAS FOR THE MA-010AWD????:)
Definitely it would be a great hit and superb improvement for our AWDs
Perhaps someday PN Products with its great engineering & production capacity plus excellent quality, will come out with an incredible AWD main chassis replacement, with well side- to- side weight distribution, also some nice ceramic plates for our differentials.
Cheers

pfcparts
2009.03.29, 12:45 AM
Bought two of these.

Started installing the orange one with the online
instructions and finally noticed I was sent only
three set screws... Curiously enough, they are
about 2mm longer than the set screws on the
silver one... :confused:

http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/5273/200903280022.th.jpg (http://img5.imageshack.us/my.php?image=200903280022.jpg)

Be pretty funny if this kind of stuff didn't happen to me
regularly lol. :p

Impressions:

+Really intricate lightweight design.

-Top arm installation is a pain.

-Lightweight, but I don''t know if it'll hold with a crash though
or get really warped.

-I suspect eventually I'd pull out the wheel shaft on the
knuckle as the end isn't flanged as with all PN's knuckles. :o

-no micro allen wrench included.

+Otherwise, great, well thought out design. Tight precise fits.

Will need to sand off abit of the top ball again as it is still a
little tight... Looking forward to getting it working lol.:p




parts

Skv012a
2009.03.29, 02:58 AM
This looks very interesting, but 3/4 of a new chassis price is a horrible turn-off. I'd love to hear Reflex opinion on how much second this thing will help shave to see whether its really worth it or not in the end. Any plans for MR15 width kit/conversion kit?

Gofast
2009.03.29, 11:47 AM
Congrats to PN Racing for such a revolutionary product. Looks like definitely a new part to try.

Given that it's $80 I would suggest that it should only be allowed in Mod or Open class racing. It definitely defeat the spirit of Stock class racing. Agreed?

Congrats again.

Skv012a
2009.03.29, 01:45 PM
Sadly, since I consider Hfay a stock class race, it says noithing about disallowing hop ups. No major weight redox, no FET mods, but everything else goes.

arch2b
2009.03.29, 03:04 PM
ther e are hop ups and then there are hop ups. replacement tower bars are similar however they are direct replacements for stock peices that can break. i don't see how this would in any sense be considered a replacement part.

if there is ever a concern or question about the rules, please post it to the hfay forum.

Gofast
2009.03.29, 08:17 PM
I would think that any part that costs more than thirty percent of an ASF chassis set shouldn't be allowed for stock class racing regardless of perceived performance benefit.

Skv012a
2009.03.29, 08:35 PM
Depends who defines stock class man. But either way, my next question is: what about improving the rear end instead of the front? Would any company be willing to add independent springs to the rear end of MR?

NomaOnAir
2009.03.29, 09:34 PM
I need to get myself a 02 and start modding it , and put the model t 01 to rest.

eztuner12
2009.03.30, 12:28 AM
This is really bad you can’t edit at this tread:(
At my post #16 I intended to say, Double A arm Front Suspension, not SAS.
Looking on with great enthusiasm :) for a PN front suspension system as this one for the MA-010AWD.
Cheers;)

jonnywachter
2009.03.30, 12:45 AM
Id like to see PN produce a wide track front end for this kit, for the pan cars and stuff. It would only have to be arms and a toe bar. Know what, saying that just made me think, and it wouldn't be hard to duplicate them just longer :) the hard part has already been done!

yasuji
2009.03.30, 01:13 AM
Id like to see PN produce a wide track front end for this kit, for the pan cars and stuff. It would only have to be arms and a toe bar. Know what, saying that just made me think, and it wouldn't be hard to duplicate them just longer :) the hard part has already been done!

I dont believe that a wide track is necessary.......however i would like to know what,if any,benefits there would be from a wide track....
imo 0 and +1 with the reflex wtf wheels have very little on power steering on a mod pancar and alot of off power steering....it does ,however transition very well on slow switchbacks , but thru high speed sweepers it will push to the outside wall unless you let out of the throttle....the wtf does do its intended job very well....it reduces tire scrub...but to turn @ high speed you need to slow down to turn....:confused:
for mod pancars i prefer the tire scrub.....even with this so called tire scrub "issue"....i have no problems running in to most drivers on track....lol;)

jonnywachter
2009.03.30, 01:36 AM
I dont believe that a wide track is necessary.......however i would like to know what,if any,benefits there would be from a wide track....
imo 0 and +1 with the reflex wtf wheels have very little on power steering on a mod pancar and alot of off power steering....it does ,however transition very well on slow switchbacks , but thru high speed sweepers it will push to the outside wall unless you let out of the throttle....the wtf does do its intended job very well....it reduces tire scrub...but to turn @ high speed you need to slow down to turn....:confused:
for mod pancars i prefer the tire scrub.....even with this so called tire scrub "issue"....i have no problems running in to most drivers on track....lol;)

LOL! Grant, i know what your saying. I know you have explained it to me before. I feel the wide front end makes the whole car smoother throughout the track and more consistent to drive in any condition. The only setup i changed on my car from Chad's track and your track was lowering the front 0.4mm and take out some uptravel. You drove my car and you know it had a lot of steering wich reduced the amount of brake you had to use through out the track (if any at all).

arch2b
2009.03.30, 08:28 AM
This is really bad you can’t edit at this tread:(
At my post #16 I intended to say, Double A arm Front Suspension, not SAS.
Looking on with great enthusiasm :) for a PN front suspension system as this one for the MA-010AWD.
Cheers;)

this was brought to my attention in another area, i've double checked the settings and editing is set to indefinate meaning there should be no time limit restricting anyone from editing your post. i'll ask david to look deeper as there may be some check box ticked somewhere that i don't know of.
please bring issues to out attention when needed, via email and or pm. i for example can edit anything, anytime so i won't see the same limitations you would thus not know if there was still a problem. :)

danieluki
2009.03.30, 08:44 AM
Incredible product....! :eek:
I pray PNRacing release an AWD version...

Cherub1m
2009.03.30, 09:58 AM
Hello Mr. PN.
Any plans to release this marbles front PN SAS FOR THE MA-010AWD????:)
Definitely it would be a great hit and superb improvement for our AWDs
Perhaps someday PN Products with its great engineering & production capacity plus excellent quality, will come out with an incredible AWD main chassis replacement, with well side- to- side weight distribution, also some nice ceramic plates for our differentials.
Cheers

Incredible product....! :eek:
I pray PNRacing release an AWD version...

Yes, release it for the AWD.:D

CristianTabush
2009.03.30, 10:54 AM
Philip sent me out a suspension to evaluate.
So far these are my impressions:

-It is a bit complicated of a build. It requires advanced building knowledge to assemble it correctly, lots of parts. In the end, it looks very nice though.
-The pivot balls are a bit tight of a fit. I had to spend a couple of hours polishing away to get the binding out of the suspension. I suggested to Philip to use a delrin ball in the future instead of stainless steel so that it is easier to break in and there is less friction on the suspension. Delrin on aluminum is a lot better than stainless on aluminum.
-Due to the large amount of parts, it also has a lot more slop than a regular front end. This might take away a little bit of the precision of the car. I have not driven it though.
-Even though Grant feels a wide track is not necessary, I disagree. Results speak for themselves. The wide track has won and is winning almost every event it enters. It makes the car more consistent and easier to drive at speed, the car has better feedback to the driver with less scrub. It is not always about making the fastest individual lap time car, but rather the one that can run on the track the quickest over an average of 10 minutes. Look at F1 this weekend. Nico Rosberg had the quickest lap of the race. He was never in contention for first place. Look at Jenson, destroyed the competition, but did not have the fastest lap.
-Camber gain is nice. It should provide more consistent and increased middle of the corner front grip, as well as absorb the imperfections of the track better. The question is, will these changes benefit more than the downsides on the car? I will start doing the testing tomorrow at the track. The lap record so far is 6.41 with an MR-02. We will see what we can do and I will keep you posted...

MikeL
2009.03.30, 11:00 AM
The design is cool, but who's going to make a ruling on whether or not this type of setup is allowed in "stock" type classes. I can see this setup fixing the difficulty a mini-z can have in balancing on and off power steering. I think it might be overkill, the 1/12th style fixed lower with one upper arm would be a stronger setup with enough adjustment range, albeit a different camber curve than dual a-arms.

benmlee
2009.03.30, 12:01 PM
Given that it's $80 I would suggest that it should only be allowed in Mod or Open class racing. It definitely defeat the spirit of Stock class racing. Agreed?

Congrats again.

Consider this, you are effectively getting several parts at once. It has to be looked at as a packaged deal. It includes tower bar, camber knuckle and sway bar. Is not just one part where you then have to go out and get other things to complete the front end. If you were to get those individually, you are looking at $17 for knuckle, $14 for tower bar, $20 for sway bar. That is $51 already. Most racers change camber and caster to match the race track. Assuming you get one more caster tower bar and a different camber knuckle. Now you are at $82. Instead, you have one system that can change 3 different camber and 3 different caster. You get the double A-arm suspension as a bonus. You can go either way, but in the end, you will be spending about the same amount.
Is not too different at the rear end. Cost of motor mount, disk damper, T-bar and a center shock would add up to similar amounts if you were to get them all at once. You are spending about the same on both ends. In the end, the total for the entire car has not changed at all, but you are getting a more sophisticated suspension. So is just like computers, you are getting more powerful processor each year, but the price stays the same :)

benmlee
2009.03.30, 12:14 PM
-The pivot balls are a bit tight of a fit. I had to spend a couple of hours polishing away to get the binding out of the suspension. I suggested to Philip to use a delrin ball in the future instead of stainless steel so that it is easier to break in and there is less friction on the suspension. Delrin on aluminum is a lot better than stainless on aluminum.


Some of the parts are close toleranced for a tight fit. Grant suggested using Mothers polish. Put some on the ball joints, hold the assembly together and cycle the suspension several times in different steering positions until it feels smooth. Wash off the polish afterward. Couple minutes of work, and it will feel silk smooth afterward.
The production unit I had was particularly tight. What worked best was to put the king pin in a drill chuck. Apply metal polish, and use that to polish the suspension arm ball socket. It only took couple of seconds to get it moving very free. After that, I assembled with polish on joints and cycled it for a final fit. I tried doing it by hand holding the ball with a pin, and yes, that would take couple of hours.

Took some pictures here:
http://mini-z-guide.com/A-Arm_Front_Susp.htm

Cherub1m
2009.03.30, 01:01 PM
Philip sent me out a suspension to evaluate......The lap record so far is 6.41 with an MR-02. We will see what we can do and I will keep you posted...

Cool anxiously awaiting your findings :D.

yasuji
2009.03.30, 01:17 PM
The design is cool, but who's going to make a ruling on whether or not this type of setup is allowed in "stock" type classes. I can see this setup fixing the difficulty a mini-z can have in balancing on and off power steering. I think it might be overkill, the 1/12th style fixed lower with one upper arm would be a stronger setup with enough adjustment range, albeit a different camber curve than dual a-arms.

as ive been told.....if you limit technology in stk classes we will never evolve....
advancement is good ....;)

yasuji
2009.03.30, 01:24 PM
-Even though Grant feels a wide track is not necessary, I disagree. Results speak for themselves. The wide track has won and is winning almost every event it enters. It makes the car more consistent and easier to drive at speed, the car has better feedback to the driver with less scrub. It is not always about making the fastest individual lap time car, but rather the one that can run on the track the quickest over an average of 10 minutes. Look at F1 this weekend. Nico Rosberg had the quickest lap of the race. He was never in contention for first place. Look at Jenson, destroyed the competition, but did not have the fastest lap.
.

thats because reflex has the best drivers in the world.....;)
i am not saying that the wtf is not good.....just not for my driving style....
all tho i feel that the way this new front end works takes all of the +s from std and wtf i have no complaints @ all....it does everything i want it to do for me :D

yasuji
2009.03.30, 01:27 PM
Some of the parts are close toleranced for a tight fit. Grant suggested using Mothers polish. Put some on the ball joints, hold the assembly together and cycle the suspension several times in different steering positions until it feels smooth. Wash off the polish afterward. Couple minutes of work, and it will feel silk smooth afterward.
The production unit I had was particularly tight. What worked best was to put the king pin in a drill chuck. Apply metal polish, and use that to polish the suspension arm ball socket. It only took couple of seconds to get it moving very free. After that, I assembled with polish on joints and cycled it for a final fit. I tried doing it by hand holding the ball with a pin, and yes, that would take couple of hours.

Took some pictures here:
http://mini-z-guide.com/A-Arm_Front_Susp.htm

it took me just a few minits to free up a set with mothers.....one set i got could barely move.... i just put a dab of mothers in the ball socket , installed the ball and clip....and walaaaa.... aftre a few mins..smooth as butter;)

Gofast
2009.03.30, 01:44 PM
as ive been told.....if you limit technology in stk classes we will never evolve....
advancement is good ....;)

I am o.k. whatever way the consensus is. It's all just fun and hobby for me. :) I'll buy Grant's comment if you see F1 technology applied at an SCCA event. Prototypes and tech advancement should/must be used in mod/open class to test out new stuff. These should then get trickle down to stock class racing. That's how prototype and product development should work.

A cool factor of Mini-z racing is it's cost of entry. Parts cost should scale similarly in my opinion but I like Ben's explanation though. It's all good.

ruf
2009.03.30, 01:51 PM
The design is cool, but who's going to make a ruling on whether or not this type of setup is allowed in "stock" type classes. I can see this setup fixing the difficulty a mini-z can have in balancing on and off power steering. I think it might be overkill, the 1/12th style fixed lower with one upper arm would be a stronger setup with enough adjustment range, albeit a different camber curve than dual a-arms.I don't see the point in limiting this out of the stock class. If someone wants to dump $80 on this, that's their prerogative. I doubt it's going to give an unfair advantage.

Cristian - don't talk about Nico like that. :(

hrdrvr
2009.03.30, 02:32 PM
^ I agree with Joe. At what point do you say "this isnt stock"? Weve been down that road before, and it can go all the way back to box stock. Until thats what we are racing (box stock), upgrades shouldnt be policed/limited, IMO.

MikeL
2009.03.30, 02:44 PM
I don't see the point in limiting this out of the stock class. If someone wants to dump $80 on this, that's their prerogative. I doubt it's going to give an unfair advantage.

Cristian - don't talk about Nico like that. :(

I don't want to drag this out in the thread since it's not really the place, but I'll give you this as an example. Our local 1/10 track closed, this weekend we brought our mini-zs to show the racers what else was available, and when you tell them that you need a $200 car +$200 in mods they shy away, this front end, assuming it makes an improvement worth the cost (which I *think* it will) your almost at $500.
I know it's at each track's discretion, but my experience is that most people who run tracks follow the "national" guidelines so they don't have to explain or convince people that their modifications to the rules are in the best interests of everyone.

CristianTabush
2009.03.30, 04:29 PM
MikeL, I agree with you entirely, but I also agree entirely with Ben, Grant, and Joe.

By buying this you are effectively getting,
*All the caster bars imaginable
*All the adjustable camber knuckles
*No need for kingpins

If you compare the prices vs.
*WTF 35.00
*2 sets of camber knuckels 26.00
*Stainless King Pins 6.00

This already puts you at 67.00 dollars, plus the infinite adjustability should be worth the extra 20 dollars.

Now this: One of the greatest things about Mini-Z Racing is the price point. Releasing a part like this does not make it necessarily more expensive, as it is not necessary to win (Jacob ran a STOCK front end in stock at the KO Grand Prix, no WTF, no caster bar, just 0 degrees of stock front end). It is a part for tinkerers. Some people enjoy parts like this (myself included) and they have to be given a chance to develop properly. In the end it might end up a part that is indispensable, but I really doubt that you will need it to be competitive, especially in stock where weight is probably more important than infinite adjustment. 88.00 Dollars is a pretty penny, but then again, you are getting something that is so multi-dimensional, that anyone who is serious about racing ends up spending in the long haul. A perfect example for this is the SAS on RCP. Over and over again it has been proven that the standard type suspension is quicker. It is probably due to the fact that the regular rear end does not work as well giving traction to a car that already has too much traction.

Should it be banned? How can you put a cap on something like this? How do you measure what something costs on different people's cars? It is just kind of impossible to monitor.

What I say, is to not be concerned. I think that you will be fine with your regular front end, so long that you build it properly. Where I see this making a difference is in the Modified classes where the additional surface compliance might make the car more consistent. In stock, the regular front end is more than adequate.

Grant, I was by no means inferring that you are not correct about saying that the Wider track is or is not necessary. I think each has it's very own application. It is just that cars running the WTF or not, with Offset wheels feel numb (even +1's on a regular front end, I can't drive it) I am most excited about this part for 2wd Mod touring, where I think it will have the biggest benefit when running 0 offset wheels in the front. This is the reason why 1/12th scale cars and 1/10th scale tourers have been build with inset wheels for the past 15+ years, precision handling and better feedback to the driver. I guess it is important to mention that I will be testing 2 identical cars in different configurations (Pan and Touring) in order to give as much of an unbiased as is possible. One of the things about Reflex, and the reason why I have never run for any of the big Manufacturers is the ability that we have to pick the best parts, regardless of manufacturer. This has been part of the success of Reflex (and Atom ic Mods while I was there) at big events. We run what is fastest, period. :)

Joe, I still love Nico, and you know I am a Williams fan, but the truth is the truth. We were outclassed this weekend by Brawn GP and Red Bull Racing...

CristianTabush
2009.03.30, 04:34 PM
Some of the parts are close toleranced for a tight fit. Grant suggested using Mothers polish. Put some on the ball joints, hold the assembly together and cycle the suspension several times in different steering positions until it feels smooth. Wash off the polish afterward. Couple minutes of work, and it will feel silk smooth afterward.
The production unit I had was particularly tight. What worked best was to put the king pin in a drill chuck. Apply metal polish, and use that to polish the suspension arm ball socket. It only took couple of seconds to get it moving very free. After that, I assembled with polish on joints and cycled it for a final fit. I tried doing it by hand holding the ball with a pin, and yes, that would take couple of hours.

Took some pictures here:
http://mini-z-guide.com/A-Arm_Front_Susp.htm

Ben, that's me ;) hand polished. Both mine and Jacobs were VERY tight on the left side. The reason why I hand polished is because I did not want to go too far with it. I am really anal about my building so I want it to be perfect. You just can't beat hand fitment :) I would have used just regular polish, but the left side was just a bit too tight to get it done well.

ruf
2009.03.30, 04:51 PM
What do you call a Polish snowplow?

Kubica!

ruf
2009.03.30, 05:06 PM
Ok ok fine... the snowplow was German. The driver was Polish. :D

eztuner12
2009.03.30, 05:16 PM
Consider this, you are effectively getting several parts at once. It has to be looked at as a packaged deal. It includes tower bar, camber knuckle and sway bar. Is not just one part where you then have to go out and get other things to complete the front end. If you were to get those individually, you are looking at $17 for knuckle, $14 for tower bar, $20 for sway bar. That is $51 already. Most racers change camber and caster to match the race track. Assuming you get one more caster tower bar and a different camber knuckle. Now you are at $82. Instead, you have one system that can change 3 different camber and 3 different caster. You get the double A-arm suspension as a bonus. You can go either way, but in the end, you will be spending about the same amount.
Is not too different at the rear end. Cost of motor mount, disk damper, T-bar and a center shock would add up to similar amounts if you were to get them all at once. You are spending about the same on both ends. In the end, the total for the entire car has not changed at all, but you are getting a more sophisticated suspension. So is just like computers, you are getting more powerful processor each year, but the price stays the same :)

Hi benmlee
Excellent point you have made.
About pivot balls, thru a wide experience with pivot balls, I can say nothing will match or be compared to s-steel on this specific part, not even titanium, doe to the strength and material resistant required in line to keep up with the stress it will receive plus potential wear out, perhaps a coat of Teflon or Delrin over the sterling steel ball cold be a solution but still it won’t beat the strength, durability and security sterling steel pivot ball will provide.
Mother wax is a great product but they are others more specialized on wax based lubricants as O’Donnell wax based lubricant, which by the way lives no oily residue that prevents from collecting dirt and dust as Mothers wax too.
Cheers;)

ruf
2009.03.30, 05:42 PM
DELRIN. Look at a 1/12 scale...

briankstan
2009.03.30, 10:02 PM
anyone know what size the set screws are? I don't have one small enough. :(

CristianTabush
2009.03.30, 10:08 PM
It is a 0.9 if I'm not wrong. They come with all PN 64 pitch pinions that have the aluminum collar on them...

briankstan
2009.03.30, 10:11 PM
It is a 0.9 if I'm not wrong. They come with all PN 64 pitch pinions that have the aluminum collar on them...

I'll see if I can find one. I don't have that size.

eztuner12
2009.03.30, 10:17 PM
Hi benmlee
Excellent point you have made.
About pivot balls, thru a wide experience with pivot balls, I can say nothing will match or be compared to s-steel on this specific part, not even titanium, doe to the strength and material resistant required in line to keep up with the stress it will receive plus potential wear out, perhaps a coat of Teflon or Delrin over the sterling steel ball cold be a solution but still it won’t beat the strength, durability and security sterling steel pivot ball will provide.
Mother wax is a great product but they are others more specialized on wax based lubricants as O’Donnell wax based lubricant, which by the way lives no oily residue that prevents from collecting dirt and dust as Mothers wax too.
Cheers;)
Correction; I ment Stainless steel not sterling steel.

lfisminiz
2009.03.30, 10:25 PM
Brian, thats the only wrench i had that worked. I ordered the PN wrench so i have something stronger.;)

briankstan
2009.03.30, 10:39 PM
Brian, thats the only wrench i had that worked. I ordered the PN wrench so i have something stronger.;)

I'll be doing the same.

bemoore
2009.03.31, 08:50 AM
Releasing a part like this does not make it necessarily more expensive, as it is not necessary to win (Jacob ran a STOCK front end in stock at the KO Grand Prix, no WTF, no caster bar, just 0 degrees of stock front end).
There are people who are so naturally talented that they shouldn't be considered when defining rules. They could outrun me with a bone stock car against my car with every mod known. So that's not a valid argument. The argument should be: For a typical racer, does it provide an advantage?

but I really doubt that you will need it to be competitive, especially in stock where weight is probably more important than infinite adjustment.

What I say, is to not be concerned. I think that you will be fine with your regular front end, so long that you build it properly. Where I see this making a difference is in the Modified classes where the additional surface compliance might make the car more consistent. In stock, the regular front end is more than adequate.
I disagree that it would be an advantage only in mod class. The argument above states that it doesn't make you any faster, but it makes you more consistent. Stock class is often decided by who makes the fewest mistakes, so consistency is often just as important as speed. Where do we draw the line? What happens when a fully articulated independent rear setup with oil shocks comes available? For $200? Do we allow that too? And IF the argument is that it doesn't make you any faster in stock, then what's the problem in not allowing it in stock? Allow it or don't, but don't make the decision based on the "it makes no difference in stock" argument.

I also race slot cars and issue exists there too, but the controversial technology there is electronic controllers. Some argue that the controllers don't make you any faster, which is mostly true. But they DO make you more consistent. So far, in our local slot car club, nobody has won a race without an electronic controller.

hrdrvr
2009.03.31, 09:14 AM
While you on that road bemoore, let me play devils advocate.

Should we outlaw Ex-10s, Ex-URs, M-11s, and 3pks in stock class? They cost way more than any of the parts used for expamles, and IMO, make more of a difference. Saying this is neccesary to be competetive could be argued as well. Some one at the recent event in MB (I believe is was Action B) pointed out the fact that every one, in every A-Main, including the sportsman classes, were using high end radios. He felt at a huge disadvantage because he was running a lesser radio.

If some one says I cant run my helios in stock class, then I wont run stock anymore. I would loose a lot of enjoyment I get from the hobby, which is what I do it for...enjoyment. I am a pretty good driver behind the wheel of a 70t powered car. If I were to be forced into mod classes (cause Ill refuse to go back to KT radios), I wouldnt likely attend any events. If my local group decided to force that type of rule I may consider getting out of the hobby all-together.

In the end, I dont think Id quit, but I would end up being forced into mod class, where I would have to have all of the cutting edge tech and parts to compete, and Id be forced to spend big dollars to get them......

Gofast
2009.03.31, 10:32 AM
While you on that road bemoore, let me play devils advocate.


In the end, I dont think Id quit, but I would end up being forced into mod class, where I would have to have all of the cutting edge tech and parts to compete, and Id be forced to spend big dollars to get them......

Hi Landon,

Sorry for pointing out the obvious. This last sentence is already true as of now in stock or mod anyway.

arch2b
2009.03.31, 10:46 AM
i think this entire arguement really only suite a small percentage of mini-zracers. i argue that a majority of us are in club racing with our own rules and travel little to other events which all have thier own rules.

i think for a majority of us out there, this part would be a huge expense for little gain. it's been my experience that the best guys have beaten me with less sophisticated cars in terms or retail upgrades.

as we do not have broad based rules system, let each decide thier own fate. if i had $80 i would buy it. i don't for a second think it would make me any faster rather give me yet more parts to tinker with.

experienced drivers should be doing more to tutor those less skilled to be more particular with thier upgrades. instead, we get the atmosphere that you can spend your way to a good car which is counter productive. no amount of money or parts will make up for practicing consistency and clean lines.

hrdrvr
2009.03.31, 11:02 AM
^ Begging to differ seems to be the norm when we talk "stock" class these days.....wellI guess its the norm any time we bring up new parts/rules, lol. Its okay though, thats what the forum is for right....sharing info and opinions :D

Im going to back myslef up a little though, and break my stock and mod cars down.

Stock car upgrades:
ATM 94mm MM motor mount - $30
ATM DDS - $22
Kyosho ball diff - $40
PN70t motor - $10
ATM plastic camver knuckles - $5
spring and H-plate assortment - $15

Mod Car upgrades:
PN 98-102 motor mount - $38
PN multi length DDS - $23
Side damper - ~$35
Kyosho Oil shock - $15
Kyosho ball diff - $40
Reflex WTF - $35
mod motor - ~$25
ATM plastic camber knuckles - $5
spring and H-plate assortment - $15

This puts my stock car at $122 worth of upgrades, and my mod car up to $231. This is also running plastic knuckles on the frot of my mod, which I think should be alloy. To get the alloy in the two settings I got the plastic ones, it would be an addition $25. That would make it $135 more expensive to run mod instead of stock, in my case. This also doesnt include in castor or toe adjustability, which Id like to have for my mod car (if they only came in WTF :D). I wouldnt enjoy that as much if I felt I was forced into it by rules.

I guess it goes back to saying that this part in question (A-Arm set up) is too expensive to bring into stock, as its going to be a neccesary upgrade to compete, but I agree with Cristian. At the slower speeds of stock, its not neccesary, therefore I wont spend the money on that car. Thats the decision I will make, even if others are running the part against me in stock class.

hrdrvr
2009.03.31, 11:03 AM
I wish I could edit. Arch snuck in on me on the last reply. It was intended to reply to this quote:

Hi Landon,

Sorry for pointing out the obvious. This last sentence is already true as of now in stock or mod anyway.

briankstan
2009.03.31, 11:56 AM
I will be trying it out on my Mod Car first, if I like it I'll probably put it on my stock car as well.

I'd say that is should be the drivers choice to run items like this. Just my opinion.

MikeL
2009.03.31, 01:41 PM
If this front end is worth .3ths as stated earlier, why WOULDN'T you run it?? Have most of you every driven and setup a 1/10th car? camber links and roll center can transform your car, what we run on the mini-z is like 1920's front suspension :) Personally I end up buying stuff that's proven to be fast, but when I'm trying to get others excited about the class, I like being able to tell them that they can get into afforadably and if they like and want to go all out, that's an option as well.

We really don't even need an asc anymore, your tearing off the front/rear, of the car left with a plastic shell, the pcb board is really the only necessary kyosho device. :)

I am patiently waiting cristian's testing as he seems very thorough and fair.

Gofast
2009.03.31, 01:45 PM
i think this entire arguement really only suite a small percentage of mini-zracers. i argue that a majority of us are in club racing with our own rules and travel little to other events which all have thier own rules.

i think for a majority of us out there, this part would be a huge expense for little gain. it's been my experience that the best guys have beaten me with less sophisticated cars in terms or retail upgrades.

as we do not have broad based rules system, let each decide thier own fate. if i had $80 i would buy it. i don't for a second think it would make me any faster rather give me yet more parts to tinker with.

experienced drivers should be doing more to tutor those less skilled to be more particular with thier upgrades. instead, we get the atmosphere that you can spend your way to a good car which is counter productive. no amount of money or parts will make up for practicing consistency and clean lines.

Good points. By the way, I appreciate PN coming out with such a revolutionary product. That's all progress for this cool scale! I will eventually get one or a few myself (for my mod cars).

My argument for stock class is that it should be about driving skills. If there are hop ups then everyone should use the same hop ups. For example, the PN 70T. The obvious logic is that these hop ups won't cause the racers to think twice about their participation. Also, the idea is not to tempt the racers to think they can have an advantage because they can spend more money on their cars. It's a different story on mod or open class though.

briankstan
2009.03.31, 02:32 PM
Good points. By the way, I appreciate PN coming out with such a revolutionary product. That's all progress for this cool scale! I will eventually get one or a few myself (for my mod cars).

My argument for stock class is that it should be about driving skills. If there are hop ups then everyone should use the same hop ups. For example, the PN 70T. The obvious logic is that these hop ups won't cause the racers to think twice about their participation. Also, the idea is not to tempt the racers to think they can have an advantage because they can spend more money on their cars. It's a different story on mod or open class though.

The same could be said for Modified Class. Say I want to run modified, but can't afford all the goodies, should everyone have to conform to what I'm able to do? I wouldn't expect so... Stock should be the same.

the direction that the rules have gone in the last year is to open up the car, and keep the limiting factor at the motor. Even stacked fets are legal for most stock class racing now. you can't tell me that that alone doesn't equate to .3 on even a car with no other upgrades.

even if you were to run stock, and setup 5 cars the exact same, say a "hand out" car for the class. people would still complain about something. Event if they used the same everything including motors, one would still be quicker than another. The slowest (speed) car would still loose to the Fastest (speed) car with the better driver. in the end it comes down to skill and how much time a person puts in on the track.

eztuner12
2009.03.31, 02:52 PM
Hi Gentlemen
Why focusing in race events only, and go to a never end argument & headache?:confused: I will bet that only a much reduced fraction of those of us that own a mini-z will participate in a so call Pro race event. There is a larger piece of the pie that owns these mini cars and run them for fun. They too are considered by manufactures when they decide to invest in the research, design & final production of a new part.
We hum are into this class as a hobby, perhaps represent a mayor revenue to the manufacturers, as we want and consume as mush improvement new tech parts as those that are into this for events racing or as an mortification (pain in the neck) than a hobby, perchance more, maybe not individually but as a group.
So my supports goes out to any manufacturer or any one that comes out with real solutions to our needs in the quest to make this hobby more interesting, more passionate , more realistic and more relaxing, as well as, advance into new & better teach, in line to accomplish a more fun thing to get involved.:)
Excellent job PN!!! I in fact appreciate your effort, only hope you don’t forget about the 4WDs.:):)
Cheers ;)

CristianTabush
2009.03.31, 02:59 PM
If any upgrade makes 3 tenths of a second difference per lap, then you were doing something wrong before, A front suspension is just one of many things that can be adjusted on a car, and one of the things we NEVER adjust at Reflex. Always run .6mm of downstop and PN White Springs, PERIOD. The only thing we ever really change is our front tires. Look at what that has done for us over the years ;)

Once I have some of the testing done I will write down my impressions. Basically what I am looking from this is a car that should be easier to drive fast (as my cars are already extremely fast and easy to drive) add to the fact that I have probably the best Mini-Z driver in the World right now in Jacob F testing with me, we will get to the bottom of it :)

CristianTabush
2009.03.31, 03:16 PM
Richard, you are right in saying that a lot of people will not attend major events, but a lot of people that frequent these forums race on a regular basis. Their concern is valid, just not able to be monitored. I always tell people that you do not need EVERY Part to be competitive. Heck, I have argued with you over time on how the SAS is not necessary, as it is slower and cost a pretty penny.

A lot of people race this scale because of the price point. If we start pricing ourselves really high a-la 1/10th scale electric and Nitro On-Road, our momentum will die off and see Mini-Z as just another expensive form of racing. That's why one of our goals at Reflex is being cost effective and higher performance, in order to keep the spirit of the scale (avid bearings, delrin out-drives, 3Racing parts on our cars are a perfect example of this). We have proved over and over again that the most expensive, complex car is not the quickest.

We also all need to not allow ourselves be misled by the way something looks, rather than the way it performs. I try to maintain my objectivity because it is a very delicate subject as a brand owner and large supporter of PN Racing and their competitions (PNWC).

As business owners, you have to hear everyone's points, but also through experience know what to identify what is valid and what is not. Yes this upgrade is a bit expensive, but if you were to add all the parts by themselves, you would end up spending the same or more. My argument is to say that all these parts (whether they are on a regular front end or a PN new front end) are not necessary to win. The cost to benefit factor, I can guarantee is low, but this varies from person to person as well (based on resources $$$ and desire). Bottom line is though is this front end going to make your car drive itself and avoid collisions and teach you throttle control and the right tire combination (which will make a bigger difference than anything else) then the answer is no.

eztuner12
2009.03.31, 04:17 PM
Hi Cristian
If I see it as a race driver, I totally agree with your well put statement, but if I see it with the eyes of a hobbyist, may opinion varies, these two points of views are like water and oil, as a hobbyist for fun and entertainment as many, many others, I want my car to look as realistic and nice as it can, not living out performance, sure. As you know some guys here have docents of bodies as a collection too.
Basically as you know and have mentioned, the real performance is in the skills of the pilot, there is no up-grade that can beat this. Perhaps if you provide me with your best car and I give you my 208g tank full of nice alum parts and we go to the track, perchance you’re fine skills will take me over and over. That’s a fact, but we all have to keep in mind (I suggest) that this is a hobby and collaboration partnership, respect and fun are too part of the game. For many years I have been involve in the RC hobby as entertainment and team driver for many brands and never had experienced a group of gentlemen that argue so much about something that in fact is good for us. Sometimes if you read closely, we are arguing or defending our points of view, in different words but at the end of the line we are saying the same thing.:(
This is just my humble opinion thru my observation, sometimes arguments go so hot that we forget want is this really all about, living out those that appreciate this hobby for what it is, an entertainment for dissipation & fun plus making new good friends, even if we never see their faces.:):):)
Cheers;)

CristianTabush
2009.03.31, 04:49 PM
Again, I agree with what you are saying. I am just trying to address the concerns of my end users, which 9 out of 10 times are also racers. I am all for innovation, but raising the price for COMPETITION, not hobbyists is never a good avenue to go down, especially in the current state of our economy.

There are different ways to look at the cost as well, but essentially the main point is that people will always have unlimited wants and limited resources. Our job as experts is to guide them down the right path so that they can invest their hard earned money wisely and so that they get the most for their dollars (however many that may be). One of the reasons I race Mini-Z and have become active in the industry was the affordability of the scale, if I had been able to afford 1/10th scale equipment while in College, you might see me now at the Snowbird Nationals or Reedy race racing touring cars instead.

Hobbyists are not as concerned with performance. They want "bling" and they want cool. If they can afford it, they buy it, if they can't, they won't. Racers think differently though, and I am just trying to lend an ear to them and explain that "hey, you don't need all the parts in the world to win, just the essentials, a little bit of mechanical skill and practice, practice, practice."

MikeL
2009.03.31, 04:58 PM
http://mini-z-guide.com/design.htm

ruf
2009.03.31, 05:15 PM
Lies. That whole page is FULL of lies...

I only finished 3 laps back from Philip in Mini Sport. With a MINI. :D

benmlee
2009.03.31, 06:02 PM
Lies. That whole page is FULL of lies...

I only finished 3 laps back from Philip in Mini Sport. With a MINI. :D

Come to think of it, might have been during the qualification rounds when you announced Phil was couple of laps ahead. I was busy racing, and thought you said something to that effect. Have not been able to find the actual results posted anywhere. Don't believe everything you read on a web page :D
Anyway, you did do very good with a true mini car. It was pretty amazing how well it performed.

ruf
2009.03.31, 06:05 PM
You guys did GOOD on that mount... Speaking of which, I need to finish writing that story...

Knacki
2009.03.31, 06:14 PM
Hi there,

I am with the mini-z the first time I saw them around 9 years ago.
I never managed to learn really driving because hobbytime is very short.
It's not important for me.

Anyway, I will buy this nicely done part but not now. Maybe next year or when there is a chance to get it cheaper. I will never ever drive faster with this. This is exactly the same with the SAS but this stuff is making the toy looking more like a real car.

That's what I like.

What I don't like are endless discussions about rules. Talking the fun away.

In my opinion stock is stock...maybe tires...maybe Fets because most of us have them already in. That's it.
Motor will be choosen by lot direct before race all the same class, something slow.
The best driver will win this race no discussions.
The other class is:"Do what your valet or sponsor can"
But this is not my world so do what you want.

I am just wondering - the first thread I read about it was stolen from a really nice self built front suspensions.
Here, where I was expecting to see a lot of pictures of installed suspensions of single parts and so on, the invention plays a minor rule.
Regulation and prices?

O.K. it is too expensive of course.
5$ and free shipping to my place is enough :D
Silver please, I hate blue, orange, green, violet non sense. That is Pipi Langstrumpf eeeh Longstocking :D

What I am wondering more about reliability.
Is it strong enough? How long will it work nicely without problems under normal circumstances.

Give me pictures, give me input about the product ;)

All the best and have fun with your hobby,

Knacki

eztuner12
2009.03.31, 08:32 PM
Again, I agree with what you are saying. I am just trying to address the concerns of my end users, which 9 out of 10 times are also racers. I am all for innovation, but raising the price for COMPETITION, not hobbyists is never a good avenue to go down, especially in the current state of our economy.

There are different ways to look at the cost as well, but essentially the main point is that people will always have unlimited wants and limited resources. Our job as experts is to guide them down the right path so that they can invest their hard earned money wisely and so that they get the most for their dollars (however many that may be). One of the reasons I race Mini-Z and have become active in the industry was the affordability of the scale, if I had been able to afford 1/10th scale equipment while in College, you might see me now at the Snowbird Nationals or Reedy race racing touring cars instead.

Hobbyists are not as concerned with performance. They want "bling" and they want cool. If they can afford it, they buy it, if they can't, they won't. Racers think differently though, and I am just trying to lend an ear to them and explain that "hey, you don't need all the parts in the world to win, just the essentials, a little bit of mechanical skill and practice, practice, practice."

Yep you are totally right and in the correct direction, 110% in target. Just hope other members of this “GREAT” forum follow your step in line to make it thru for a long, long time.
We all can agree and disagree in something and express our self, but objectivity, esteem and union must be accounted for first, I myself am included, seems like many of you, feel something very special for this hobby, no matter the size of the car.
Again thaxxx…
Cheers to all!!!
:)

arch2b
2009.03.31, 09:10 PM
so i'm not misquoted or misunderstood, i think this product looks fantastic! i own many pn parts and i will own this at some point, maybe father sday gift or something. i won't be buy this with hopes to make me faster but i would buy it just to tinker with it. i like parts, i like a real mechanical aspects of these cars/kits.

the HARDEST thing to tell/teach new racers is not to buy all the fancy parts but to practice, even slow down the car even to focus on better lines. i've told this countless times. i know this because i learned this lesson the hardway and after years of getting my ass whooped by the likes of willy and sai with old school beetles against my hfay car. in the last 7 plus years i've taken some good beating by MANY top notch drivers all most all the time, they had less money invested in thier cars. much more time but less money.

what i really like about rr is thier basic approach to examining the latest products, not tied to any one manufacturer and quick to point that out. cristian and others have been an invaluable source of reading material for me :)

what really concerns me is as mentioned, the durability. what happens when someone t's you up or you hit a rail at just the right angle and you get $80 worth of bent and or broken parts. i don't think twice about breaking a knuckle or tie rod. trashing an $80 front end is another story and not something i think i would replace if done so unless replacement parts are affordable.

briankstan
2009.03.31, 09:40 PM
I am just wondering - the first thread I read about it was stolen from a really nice self built front suspensions.

Knacki

actually the original thread with the home made one, was based on the prototype of this product that he saw on a a car. he did a great job on his version, but they are slightly different.

I agree about the rules, that belongs in another thread. this should just mainly focus on this product. :D

dahlis
2009.04.01, 05:34 AM
Reflex Racing WTF
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/dahlis/20090331163.jpg
PN Racing double A-arm front suspension
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/dahlis/20090331164.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/dahlis/20090331167.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a244/dahlis/20090331168.jpg

2EZ
2009.04.01, 08:55 AM
I work with real cars every day and to see something like this at this scale is just too cool. thanks PN even if I never win a race I just love the idea we have something like this that works like a full size car!!! at this scale!!! Don't want it don't buy it want it get two!!! just enjoy!!! keep talking about it that keeps the forum alive!!!

Knacki
2009.04.01, 02:48 PM
I love it! More! :D

eztuner12
2009.04.01, 03:28 PM
Hi Dahils
How was your driving experience with the new PNDA-AFS???
It really looks superb and realistic all the way, I am loving it more each time I see it:). I bet I can certainly improve my average lap times with it, as I have been doing with the SAS rear-end Oh yeah.
Btw, not so much weight gain for the improvement it can be accomplish with it, perhaps a few holes on your CF front bumper and you will go back to the 300.7g, if you wish.
Cheers;)

dahlis
2009.04.01, 03:46 PM
Hi Dahils
How was your driving experience with the new PNDA-AFS???
It really looks superb and realistic all the way, I am loving it more each time I see it:). I bet I can certainly improve my average lap times with it, as I have been doing with the SAS rear-end Oh yeah.
Btw, not so much weight gain for the improvement it can be accomplish with it, perhaps a few holes on your CF front bumper and you will go back to the 300.7g, if you wish.
Cheers;)

Haven´t been drivin it yet, will test it on a regupol track with foam tires tomorow and RCP with rubber tires on friday.
Feels realy nice, and looks superb.:)

I have drilled severel holes on my cf frontbumber but the tenden to crack so this one I left undrilled. The weight benefit is minimal, my car weighs 186g and the class I´m drivin it in is limited too 180g. I would like too loose some weight in the upper area of the chassie to lower the center of gravity, but it´s not easy.

eztuner12
2009.04.01, 04:14 PM
Haven´t been drivin it yet, will test it on a regupol track with foam tires tomorow and RCP with rubber tires on friday.
Feels realy nice, and looks superb.:)

I have drilled severel holes on my cf frontbumber but the tenden to crack so this one I left undrilled. The weight benefit is minimal, my car weighs 186g and the class I´m drivin it in is limited too 180g. I would like too loose some weight in the upper area of the chassie to lower the center of gravity, but it´s not easy.

Thxxx..
Looking on to you feedback after set-ups and final testdrive
Agin thxxx;)
Cheers

CristianTabush
2009.04.01, 07:40 PM
Ok, first test...

Good results.
Came very close to fastest lap, really close. Fast lap If I remember correctly was with a 98mm car, Skyline GTR body WTF and 3racing LM Rear pod. Offsets were +0 front (+2 in standard terms) and +1 rear (+3 in standard terms) I have alway like to keep my front 1mm narrower on each side. This car yielded a couple of high 6.3's (Like 6.381 or 6.351, Jacob will have to chime in), so essentially a 6.4 second lap)

Today the fastest lap with the PN front end was a 6.383, so it was awfully close. The set-up was a 350Z 2007, +0 front, +1 Rear (keeping the 1mm wider stance on each side at the rear that I like so much, as it makes the car turn in harder into the corner.) At first the car was not very fast, I could only manage a 6.6 as it did not turn in hard enough, so I removed the swaybar. This dropped my times by about 1.5 tenths/lap.

The front end felt very planted, the car felt like I could throw it into a corner and it would rotate on the front end very hard. Steering in the middle and exit of a corner seemed to increase the deeper you went into a corner. Driveability was about the same vs the WTF, but it did feel like it had better mid corner steering.

Now the downside. As I feared, the car has a harder time centering. As soon as the car hits a hard bump at slow speed, it will tend to wonder off a bit, our track is very narrow, and we run very fast motors on it, so this could present a problem on tighter tracks, at slower speed. At speed though, the bump absorption is superb, the car is very composed and super stable.

In order to have a control, I took the front end off and installed the WTF. Unfortunately, I forgot my wheel box, so I had no access to the -1 fronts. This left me with a slightly wider car in the front than in the rear. Fast lap with the car was 6.500, so about .12 seconds slower. I attribute this not to the suspension, but rather to the wider front end. The car felt like it felt like at ILR, where it would just not want to turn in initially. For this reason we installed a regular width front end on both Jacob's car and My car over there. This fixed the turn in problem. I will compare vs. a regular width front end next time. I will also compare to the quickest lap car.

So far, I can honestly say that the 96mm 350Z with the PN Racing front end is a bit more consistent than my GTR. This is largely due to the fact that the GTR body has little clearance over the rear wheels,I am going to attempt to get a little more clearance so that I can have a better comparison. Consistency was highest with the WTF car today, it did under-steer quite a bit, especially in 2 really tight hairpins we have in the middle of the track. This is where both the GTR (with WTF) and the car with the PN Front end excelled. Only thing they have in common? The front is narrower 1mm on each side at the front vs. the rear.

I also tried installing +1 wheels in the front of the front end to see what the effect of scrub was. As expected, the car became disconnected to me. I felt it gave less feedback, much less. I immediately went back to 0 offset wheels.

I will keep doing more tests next week. Front end shows a lot of promise though. First time out, it came awfully close to the track record (which I have to be honest, was set on my first time out with the 98mm GTR, with 3Racing LM Pod) What does this tell me? So far is that the front end works. At the time it is at least as fast as the regular front end. I do think that if I remove the bump steer, the car will be easier to handle though. I am already working on this ;)

Tjay
2009.04.01, 07:52 PM
I do think that if I remove the bump steer, the car will be easier to handle though. I am already working on this ;)


Great review CT! Thanks. When I first tested this front end, (couple of days after KO race in Nor Cal) instantly I felt that the harder you drive the car in the corner, the more steering you get. However, I was only able to run the car for about 8 laps... I'll test the one I have now once I'm done with other tests I'm doing.

We are also working on that bump steer. :) Can't wait to see what we all come up with :).

eztuner12
2009.04.01, 08:10 PM
Thx for the so fine review Cristian:)
Even that I don’t have a 2wd, I do am very interested on this mini scale advance and have desired a front-end double A-arm suspension for a long time, since the capacity of an active camber would improve the cornering performance of the chassis.
Sorry for the persistent, but perhaps someday we can get one for the 4wd.
Again thxxx for so good exposition,
Cheers;)

lfisminiz
2009.04.01, 09:53 PM
Thanks Cristian...sounds promising.

LARRY

CristianTabush
2009.04.01, 10:13 PM
Now if I could get a wider suspension to run on my GTR (it would be very easily done on a V2 Philip! ;) ) then I would never take it off. I just hate the behavior of a car with scrub :mad:

eztuner12
2009.04.01, 11:10 PM
Now if I could get a wider suspension to run on my GTR (it would be very easily done on a V2 Philip! ;) ) then I would never take it off. I just hate the behavior of a car with scrub :mad:

I have been reading about this “Scrub” term can you please tell me the meaning?:confused:
Thanks!
Cheers

Tjay
2009.04.02, 03:00 AM
I was able to run my friends car today with the new front end (thanks Ryan!). The front end of the car felt like it had some weights in it. It felt like it had a quarter on the front body clip with PN red normal springs, no limiter and then kyosho 30 radials, that when you come in to the corner (off power), the rear wants to lift up and swing itself out. It steers right in the front of the car.

My fastest lap on this track (with my SC430 test body) was 9.33 and right when I drove Ryan's car on my radio, I was able to beat that time with 9.26 within less than 10 laps on the track. Very impressive if I may say. :)

The front end of the car will make you feel like it is heavy although it's not. Initial steering is just not the same as the regular front end. It just wants to dive in to the corners! However, the on-power steering while rolling my throttle finger to full throttle, the car's front end feels a bit weird. It doesn't hold its line. It feels like an AM car to where the pot needs to be cleaned. This only happens on the slow on-power sweeper and sometimes on the straight-aways. Bump steer? Perhaps.

I'm still getting my car done. Once finished, I'll definitely test this product again with a different body. The body I was running today was a 2007 350z. I'll keep you guys updated.

dorifto46
2009.04.02, 04:54 AM
Your welcome Tjay! you can drive my car anytime because you always give me great input on things i dont see that needs some attention. Today at FPR i tried the pn front for the first time. I eye balled the ride height and put it on the track and instantly my car felt easier to drive. Decided to put on a transponder and within a few laps dropped down a 9.4 fast lap which is .5 faster then my best time. I always ask for more steering and with this front end it gave me more then i need.

only problem i have had with this front so far is binding in the upper left arm pivot. Spent a lot of time trying to polish it up so that its bind free. The right side went together nicely with a little polishing but the left side for me required tons of polishing.

MikeL
2009.04.02, 08:36 AM
What setting are you guys starting out with on the eccentric. So far what has been described is exactly what you should expect. The static 1dg w/ .89 gain will likely feel the most consistent.

eztuner12
2009.04.02, 10:23 AM
Anybody please, what the term SCRUB means in Mini-z vocabulary???
Advance thx!!!
Cheers;)

hrdrvr
2009.04.02, 10:38 AM
Google is your frind Richard ;) You can see how 'scrub' fits into our scenarios in the form of the "ackerman" effect.
http://www.competitionx.com/rc-tuning-ackermann.nxg

This effect gets worse the wider your front offsets are, as it pushes the contact patch further away from the rotation point (king pin). This is one of the most inherit problems for the AWD (as it has a very narrow track width), and the main reason Id love to see a WTF for AWD. The WTF for the MR02 was the best tuning device to date for my mod 02. I would like to see this front end in the wider width as well. I dont know that Ill ever try this set up (who am I kidding?), as like Cristian, I have become very accustomed to running with minimal scrub, and a wide track width.

eztuner12
2009.04.02, 11:50 AM
Google is your frind Richard ;) You can see how 'scrub' fits into our scenarios in the form of the "ackerman" effect.
http://www.competitionx.com/rc-tuning-ackermann.nxg

This effect gets worse the wider your front offsets are, as it pushes the contact patch further away from the rotation point (king pin). This is one of the most inherit problems for the AWD (as it has a very narrow track width), and the main reason Id love to see a WTF for AWD. The WTF for the MR02 was the best tuning device to date for my mod 02. I would like to see this front end in the wider width as well. I dont know that Ill ever try this set up (who am I kidding?), as like Cristian, I have become very accustomed to running with minimal scrub, and a wide track width.

Thx hrdrvr
Yep I am very familiar with the Ackerman effect indeed, in both real & RC vehicles. Perhaps lift is a better known term in larger RC vehicles and the solution to this is call "anti-lift", which is accomplished thru changing the angle of the upper A-arm. The more you lift the back side of the upper A-arm compared to the front side of the upper A-arm, the more you reduce the lift or Ackerman effect, inducing the steering to become more aggressive at high speeds.
Again thx U for the answers well as updating me with the Scrub term.:)
Cheers;)

CristianTabush
2009.04.02, 12:23 PM
Richard, in larger scales, scrub is known as scrub. As Landon explained, it is the amount a tire will sweep out vs how much it rotates on its pivot point. Increasing offset increases the distance to the kingpin to the outside of the tire, hence increasing this ratio. The more scrub you have, the more prone a car is to loose responsiveness. The AWD has an advantage over the MR02 in that the axles are also in line with the kingpins. This also reduces scrub (hence why it is driveable with a +3.5, with decent feedback to the pilot).

Scrub has many disadvantages in that it over heats front tires, wears them harder and slows the car down in the corners more as it generates more friction going into the corner. This takes away corner speed. Grant (Yasuji) actually uses this to his advantage because he slides the car around the track, steering with the rear end. Therefore, he needs less responsiveness (initially) induced by scrub.

The majority of drivers though, do not drive like Grant (you need nerves of steel to do so :P ) so a car that has less scrub allows you to drive smoother, quicker, (as the car is loosing less front grip in the corners) and more consistent in the majority of scenarios.

But again, this is not the Forum to ask the question. So back on track to the discussion of the new PN Front end. :)

ruf
2009.04.02, 01:00 PM
Thx hrdrvr
Yep I am very familiar with the Ackerman effect indeed, in both real & RC vehicles. Perhaps lift is a better known term in larger RC vehicles and the solution to this is call "anti-lift", which is accomplished thru changing the angle of the upper A-arm. The more you lift the back side of the upper A-arm compared to the front side of the upper A-arm, the more you reduce the lift or Ackerman effect, inducing the steering to become more aggressive at high speeds.
Again thx U for the answers well as updating me with the Scrub term.:)
Cheers;)You're talking about reactive caster, not Ackerman, and not scrub. Not the forum for it, but I don't want people confusing this stuff.

Reactive caster - changes caster as suspension moves through the stroke. Controlled by the pitch angle of a stiff upper arm.

Ackerman - steering angle of the inside wheel relative to the outside wheel, i.e. left wheel turns more than right wheel in a left corner. In Mini-Z, this is minimally accomplished by the "bean"-shaped holes in the tie rod.

Scrub radius - distance from the kingpin to the center of the tire contact patch. Cristian has described the effects.

Now back to the PN front suspension! :) We can talk about this other stuff in the appropriate forum.

eztuner12
2009.04.02, 02:16 PM
Hello Cristian & Ruff,
Totally correct, I was totally out of focus and point.:rolleyes:
Yep Ackermann, it is about steering geometry toe angles amount of travel, between left (in tire) and right (out tire) side when turning left for example. Oh yeah! It is more noticeable when the steering arrn are parallel to the chassis. If you change to a more angled to the center of the chassis steering arms, the inside tire sliding/scrubbing (Scrub) tire effect will be reduced or perhaps eliminated Right? Thu providing a wider toe angle on the inside tire than on the out tire.
Again thx for clearing this to me, maybe to others too. :)
Cheers

dahlis
2009.04.03, 04:35 AM
Here is a short review from a test on a regupol track with foam tires.

First I shall say that normally I run reflex WTF system with +0 hard in front and +3 super rear in rear with PN pancar body.

Rear tires and offset was left untouched through the hole session.

First I tested the new PN double A-arm with +0 hard 9mm in front which means that I ran the front 4mm narrower than normal.
Overall I got more steering and a more aggressive car in to the corner, but the biggest different and to my happines the front gave the car A LOT MORE on power steering. Had a little problem that the car wanted to flip (rollover) when I pushed to hard in to slow corners off power. A wider front would be nice as our tracks has very high bite. I can probably finetune the car so it don´t flip.
Laptimes were very consistent and very close to beat my fastest laprecord. I didn´t put any energy to finetune the car so there seems to be a big potential.:):):)

Second test I did with wide soft tires (11mm). The aggresivity dissapeared and the car felt really calm but it did understeer a lot on power. The car didn´t flip anymore and laptimes were a little little bit slower. The feeling was almost the same as with reflex WTF and +0 hard 9mm tires.

pinoyboy
2009.04.03, 07:57 PM
looks like they are back in stock :D

ianc
2009.04.10, 12:44 PM
I just got mine in a couple days ago and barely got it assembled last nite, so here are a couple more comments:

There is a significant amount of slop where the A-arms attach to the main suspension bracket. Nothing that some shimming work won't take care of, but a PITA nonetheless. It would be nice if, say, six extra caster washers were included with the kit to accomplish this where necessary. For a piece this expensive, this much slop does not really make me happy. Perhaps on V2 they can get the tolerances down somewhat.

The documentation for the front end states you need to have a small amount of free-play between the e-clip on the top of the kingpin and the top ball. I'm not really understanding this. I don't see why any free play there would be desirable. My kingpins are a bit too long, so that when the suspension is compressed, a gap develops between the lower A-arm and the knuckle. I'm thinking that shimming the kingpin tightly to the e-clip should take care of this but haven't tried it yet. We shall see.

Two swaybars were included in my kit. I measured them at .55 and .6 mm thickness, so I started off with the smaller of the two. Not sure if that was intentional, or just manufacturing tolerance. The docs don't give much guidance.

Stapled to the outside of my package was a plastic baggie containing about 5 extra pairs of colored springs, in addition to the pair that were included with the kit, almost like an afterthought. I like the thought of including extra springs, but a bit of paper included that listed the stiffness order and how they compared with the included and stock suspension's springs would have been nice.

Rather than 5 sets of springs (which is nice mind you), I would prefer some spare hardware, such as the aforementioned extra caster shims, maybe an extra e-clip, an extra set screw, and possibly an extra wheel nut to mount the sway bar.

I'm starting with the eccentric at the 6 o'clock position, giving 1 deg camber with (IIRC) 1.24 deg camber gain.

Have yet to drive it, but will be doing so on Mon, so will report back.

ianc

pinoyboy
2009.04.10, 12:58 PM
Stapled to the outside of my package was a plastic baggie containing about 5 extra pairs of colored springs, in addition to the pair that were included with the kit, almost like an afterthought. I like the thought of including extra springs, but a bit of paper included that listed the stiffness order and how they compared with the included and stock suspension's springs would have been nice.

ianc

This chart shows what you're looking for regarding the stiffness regarding the springs for the a-arm system
http://mini-z-guide.com/A-Arm_Front_Susp.htm

ianc
2009.04.10, 03:05 PM
Thanks for the link Pinoy, that's just what I was looking for.

However, my point was that this information should be included, either with the springs themselves, or preferably the product documentation, not languishing on some random page on Ben Lee's website.

In this vein, printed on my package was a large note telling me to download the docs before attempting assembly and containing a link. The link, however, is broken, so I ended up trolling Kenon's site until I found it.

Since the link pointed to www.pnracing.us, I shouldn't think it would be terribly difficult to make sure the documentation is actually there prior to the release of the product...

ianc

MantisMMA
2009.04.11, 06:38 PM
drove CT's car with the setup on it today and it is SICK!! i beat my fastest time with it within 5 laps of driving the car and i usually cannot drive his cars very well!

yasuji
2009.04.11, 06:45 PM
chalk a 1,2,3 for this front end......PNWC 2009 Regional Sweden ;)

eztuner12
2009.04.11, 07:44 PM
You Guys are making me so envy!!!:(
Cheers;)

lfisminiz
2009.04.11, 09:37 PM
I just started testing the front end too. Im liking the possibilities.

CONGRATS GRANT and PHILIP and...........:)

LARRY

lfisminiz
2009.04.12, 01:20 AM
A little more testing tonight and im even happier with it.:) Its comming along well.;)

CristianTabush
2009.04.12, 11:07 AM
Last week I saw really good progress. We have not yet seen a huge decrease in lap times, but have experienced several positives.

It seems this front end excels over the regular type front in low grip situations. Last Thursday at the beginning of the races I was about 1.5 tenths faster than Jacob per lap, as the grip increased, the benefits of higher grip took away this advantage. Jacob ended up with the fastest lap with a WTF, about 2-3 hundreds of a second quicker. This is so small of an advantage, we consider it null. Where my car was better than his was in the driveability. I drove both cars and felt like my car was much, much, easier to drive. We are yet to try a regular width front end with our touring cars. Right before the KO GP I tried regular width front with my 350Z and I went quicker than the WTF by like a tenth. I still want to eliminate the element of front track width as what is yielding the quicker lap times with the 350Z body.

Saturday is when Marcus drove my car. I let several people drive it so that I could see the car going around the track, but also so that they could give me feedback different than my own and I could make a more unbiassed set of observations. It seemed that the consensus was that the car was super easy to drive. I was trying a slower motor than usual just to see if I could run faster laps than with a faster motor. That was not the case. This did make my car very easy to drive though. So much that Marcus hit his fastest lap on the track within laps of grabbing my remote. Our other buddy Don went faster than he had ever gone (he has never timed his car in mod though), this speaks wonders of the car because he is one of our stock drivers and he was doing great with a mod car.

I was going a bit slower than usual only able to lap a 6.5, but the track was a bit dirty. I then changed to the 33 Turn PN Motor (from a Speedy AD) and picked up an extra tenth on my way to lapping several 6.4's. Good progress in my opinion. The car to me feels more like an AWD now which is a huge benefit due to the increased chassis roll at the front. I have to add that I could not go fast with a swaybar installed in the front though, the car was about 2 tenths slower with it due to these 2 REALLY tight hairpins on our track. The body roll makes the car feel more like a 1/10th scale car than before.

The 1 negative out of the test I have to add was the bump steer. A really good friend of mine, who is also a very distinguished larger scale RC driver finally came to try the cars out. Without Me having said any opinion on the suspension (he has no clue as to who makes what and what is installed in my car) he said that the car tended to wander. This actually re-stated the feel that I had before and after I tried the front end. He drove my AWD back to back and noted how much better and straighter the AWD drove over the MR-02. I never really drive in a straight line in on-road, so I have adapted fairly well to it. I only notice it now whenever I hit a fairly big seam on the RCP and the car tends to veer a bit to one side or the other. The grip is so superb that typically I can over-correct it quickly.

The more and more I drive it on my touring car the more I am liking it. I was also lucky enough that Phil sent us both sets of A-arms for the suspension and I installed the longer, 1 deg arms. I am running the widest upper arm position as well, using the lowest amount of possible camber with the 1 deg arms. This, in combination with the camber change is wearing my front tire almost perfectly flat. This is very, very good as my tire life seems to be increasing.

As soon as PN gets more front ends in stock, as well as more 94-98 mounts I will build a new car so I can do some testing with wider offset fronts on wider bodies. So far I do not like the feel of it too much as I feel the increased scrub nullifies somewhat the benefits of the dynamic camber and improved road-holding the suspension provides. It does not mean that it cannot be quicker though. So far the positives from this front end seem to far out-weigh the negatives, which ultimately are leading to, in my opinion to a better car.

CristianTabush
2009.04.12, 11:10 AM
I have to say that when I said faster by 1 tenth with the regular front over the WTF, it was at a fairly low grip track at the time. The weather lately seems to have increased our track grip and decreased our lap times at both of our local tracks. As grip comes up, wider front ends turn quicker and more consistent lap times.

Skv012a
2009.04.12, 11:43 AM
From an ameteur's point of view(now that I saw, felt, etc one of these), getting a camber package for $80 isn't really worth it and past that this set really doesn't seem to add much needed performance. IMO nothing our individual springs cant already do. I'd say that when MRs get an independent rear suspension, that should be truly pimpin.

CristianTabush
2009.04.12, 11:56 AM
Individual springs cannot achieve the benefits of camber gain. The part is a bit pricey, but it brings excellent value. This part, as I mentioned earlier in the thread is not for everyone. It requires a large body of knowledge for building it and tuning it appropriately. Good thing is that if it is not for you, you are not forced to buy it :)

MikeL
2009.04.12, 12:14 PM
Cristian, have you tried all of the eccentric positions yet? I'm curious if the most agressive setting makes the car nervous?

CristianTabush
2009.04.12, 12:21 PM
I haven't played with the settings so much mainly because I kinda hit it right the first time. What I look for with camber at either end is the flattest tire contact patch. This can be observed by seeing how flat the tire wears. My tires are wearing super flat so I never really bothered increasing or decreasing the camber gain or angle. What I have found the most benefit from is on the fly suspension stroke (or droop) travel adjustment and the caster settings. These really make a big difference!

CristianTabush
2009.04.12, 12:25 PM
I do have to add that changing the eccentric does affect the roll center in the front, so that could or could not prove beneficial. If I am not wrong raising it should lower the roll center and lowering it should raise it. I think I found a roll stiffness that I like, right now my car has a very neutral balance and I really like it this way.

MikeL
2009.04.12, 12:27 PM
I haven't played with the settings so much mainly because I kinda hit it right the first time. What I look for with camber at either end is the flattest tire contact patch. This can be observed by seeing how flat the tire wears. My tires are wearing super flat so I never really bothered increasing or decreasing the camber gain or angle. What I have found the most benefit from is on the fly suspension stroke (or droop) travel adjustment and the caster settings. These really make a big difference!

that reminds me, is there a reason why caster is limited to 1.8dg? every other class car start a 2dg, with as much as 8?

CristianTabush
2009.04.12, 12:44 PM
We measure the angles, and according to Joe, the angle for .5 is really 2 deg, 1 deg is 4 and 1.5 is 6 degrees. What they are actually measuring is the distance in offset of the tower bars in millimeters. We have not measured it in on the new front end, but if you calculate the angles using simple geometric formulas this is what we came up with. If you really think about it 1/2 of a degree of caster would not only not be noticeable in performance, but also nearly impossible to measure due to tolerances. Many of the measurements and terms get lost in translation with a lot of chinese manufactured parts and companies.

CristianTabush
2009.04.12, 12:46 PM
Just re-read it and to clarify, what I mean by offset is how far back the kingpins are moved towards the back in relationship to the original position (which should be 0). I hate the forums where you can't edit! ;)

EMU
2009.04.12, 10:02 PM
I just received a set for evaluation... It may not work too well at Action, since it is a pretty bumpy track... and fast. So the bump steer wandering may be too much. It will definitely be fun setting it up... Just need to get some Mothers polish.

I wish that this was designed with both the MR02 and MR015 in mind.

arch2b
2009.04.12, 10:38 PM
Just re-read it and to clarify, what I mean by offset is how far back the kingpins are moved towards the back in relationship to the original position (which should be 0). I hate the forums where you can't edit! ;)

man, i wish i could tell you i had it figured out. know i'm still looking into it. all my settings say you should be able to....

MikeL
2009.04.12, 11:34 PM
We measure the angles, and according to Joe, the angle for .5 is really 2 deg, 1 deg is 4 and 1.5 is 6 degrees. What they are actually measuring is the distance in offset of the tower bars in millimeters. We have not measured it in on the new front end, but if you calculate the angles using simple geometric formulas this is what we came up with. If you really think about it 1/2 of a degree of caster would not only not be noticeable in performance, but also nearly impossible to measure due to tolerances. Many of the measurements and terms get lost in translation with a lot of chinese manufactured parts and companies.

Thanks for the clarification, makes perfect sense.

briankstan
2009.04.13, 12:08 AM
I haven't played with the settings so much mainly because I kinda hit it right the first time. What I look for with camber at either end is the flattest tire contact patch. This can be observed by seeing how flat the tire wears. My tires are wearing super flat so I never really bothered increasing or decreasing the camber gain or angle. What I have found the most benefit from is on the fly suspension stroke (or droop) travel adjustment and the caster settings. These really make a big difference!

Care to share you settings. My initial setup was very jittery down the long straight. I've change the front setup and it a big improvement.

I'd like to know what you were running as your base setup.

CristianTabush
2009.04.13, 03:43 AM
I am running the 1 degree lower arm with the eccentric at the lowest camber amount (widest top arm position). White springs, no sway bar. Spring screws are set to where I bottom them out and then turn them out 2 and 3/4 turns. Caster is set to maximum amount. Zero offset front wheels, PN RSF10 tire front, SSG2WD Rear. 96mm medium H-plate, +1 offset rear wheels. For tie rod I am running Kyosho 0.6. Which gives me a little bit of toe out at ride height. Body is a Nissan 350Z Super GT 2007.

briankstan
2009.04.13, 09:19 AM
I am running the 1 degree lower arm with the eccentric at the lowest camber amount (widest top arm position). White springs, no sway bar. Spring screws are set to where I bottom them out and then turn them out 2 and 3/4 turns. Caster is set to maximum amount. Zero offset front wheels, PN RSF10 tire front, SSG2WD Rear. 96mm medium H-plate, +1 offset rear wheels. For tie rod I am running Kyosho 0.6. Which gives me a little bit of toe out at ride height. Body is a Nissan 350Z Super GT 2007.

thanks, that's really close to the setup I just changed to, I'll do a little more testing before leaving for California on Friday for RCX and see how I like it. My only problem is really that I have to test and practice on a much smaller track do to my space limitations at home.

WeBoC
2009.04.15, 12:38 PM
I am running the 1 degree lower arm with the eccentric at the lowest camber amount (widest top arm position). White springs, no sway bar. Spring screws are set to where I bottom them out and then turn them out 2 and 3/4 turns. Caster is set to maximum amount. Zero offset front wheels, PN RSF10 tire front, SSG2WD Rear. 96mm medium H-plate, +1 offset rear wheels. For tie rod I am running Kyosho 0.6. Which gives me a little bit of toe out at ride height. Body is a Nissan 350Z Super GT 2007.
Cristian (or anybody) can you explain what you mean by 'Spring screws are set to where I bottom them out ' ?
And which limiter are you using? I noticed on my Corvette that the 4.0mm and 4.5mm cause binding of the tires with the body with the springs compressed.

WeBoC
2009.04.15, 12:45 PM
Cristian (or anybody) can you explain what you mean by 'Spring screws are set to where I bottom them out ' ?
And which limiter are you using? I noticed on my Corvette that the 4.0mm and 4.5mm cause binding of the tires with the body with the springs compressed.
And what Collar Spacer are you using (if any)?

briankstan
2009.04.15, 12:46 PM
Cristian (or anybody) can you explain what you mean by 'Spring screws are set to where I bottom them out ' ?
And which limiter are you using? I noticed on my Corvette that the 4.0mm and 4.5mm cause binding of the tires with the body with the springs compressed.

The spring screw is not threaded the entire lenght, the screw is tightened until the threads bottom out, then they are backed out.

ianc
2009.04.15, 02:27 PM
Well, I ran mine on Mon, and the results were very encouraging. I cannot comment on just a straight comparison between the two front ends (stock and PN) because I simultaneously switched to a PN V4 LCG mount.

I began by running the stock uncolored springs with stock limiters and the guide screws tightened down enough to give me an acceptable ride height (lower than stock). I started with 0 caster, and 0 deg lower arms with the eccentric in the 6 o'clock position giving 1 deg of static camber and 1.24 deg camber gain (IIRC).

It was more of a shakedown cruise really, but the car was very grippy and began shedding the same front tires that it used before (I haven't glued or taped tires). Not due to hitting the rails or body, but just from increased grip I believe. I did not have any bumpsteer issues or wandering on the straights, and the car seemed very controllable, predictable and easy to drive.

Not much more info at present, but the results are pretty good so far and I look forward to tweaking it further,

ianc

RussF
2009.04.22, 08:35 PM
I just installed mine and so far I think I like it. I've only driven it on my home track which is new RCP and not super grippy yet. Anyway it seems better than what I had before (1deg knuckles, PN 1 deg caster bar and kyosho .6 toe bar). It looks to me like PN and/or Atomic are going to need to make some longer toe bars for this mount. Even with the .6 or +2deg toe in bar my front end still has toe out. I cant measure it yet my battery died in my calipers. Anyway I'll keep testing and adjusting it for the best overall performance. Actually thats the best thing about this front end is the adjustability. Now if someone would just make an adjustable toe bar. ;)

Christian, Brian or really anyone: Does the amount of toe in or out change with the compression of the front end?

Fovea3d
2009.04.22, 08:49 PM
Did someone actually figure out how to make the sway bar usable? With the stock setup the bar stands loose on the posts (I tried washers with no avail). Are additional cups needed to hold the sway bar at each end?

CristianTabush
2009.04.22, 09:13 PM
As you compress the front end, you get more toe in. I know what you are saying about the bars, but the stability is pretty good at speed with the +2 toe bars...

CristianTabush
2009.04.22, 09:14 PM
You should be able to install the swaybar in the 2 little tiny holes on the upper A-Arm.

Fovea3d
2009.04.22, 09:40 PM
You should be able to install the swaybar in the 2 little tiny holes on the upper A-Arm.
I took my magnifying glass and now I understand (hmmm, getting old :rolleyes:) Thanks Christian :)

CristianTabush
2009.04.22, 10:14 PM
hahaha!!! NP! :)

MantisMMA
2009.04.24, 08:43 AM
finally got to run my set last night, first off my kit was missing the tiny e clips that hold the lower arms on so i had to improvise with my precision superglue skills. being that i work at a NASA spec machine shop i actually lapped the ball ends with some diamond lapping compound which works way better than mothers polish and faster. after i lapped it in i used some dry graphite stuff i have to lubricate all moving parts and it is like BUTTA now! but i need to figure out a way to dampen it now BC there is zero friction and it bounces a little bit.
driving impressions were impressive, i actually got the quickest time of the night in SS with a 6.56 to Jacobs 6.57 ( he may have beat that in the main but im not sure yet) my previous best time was a 6.89. to me the best improvement was consistency as i stayed on the same lap with Jacob for the first time EVER! Jacob and CT usually put at least 3 laps on me. one thing i did notice is that as the track got stickier the car seemed to lose its advantage in the main the best time i got was a 6.7 and the car was kinda sketchy, CT has mentioned this before. the results showed that, Jacob started three laps down and still beat me by i think 3 laps in a 12.5 min main. overall it is an excellent product and i am amazed on how they were even able to make it out of aluminum

MantisMMA
2009.04.24, 08:50 AM
SETUP:
96mm
350z body
side damper rear suspension
med h plate
SSG's rear
k30 slick fronts
R1 750's
PN 70 (2008)
ATM top shock
0 toe (for now)
silver front springs and the E shaft is @ 6:00

RussF
2009.04.28, 02:28 PM
Did anybody locktight the grub screws? I was considering using blue locktight but the grub screws are so small it would probably make a mess. Just wondering if anybody else did or if anybody has lost a grub screw because they didnt.

jonnywachter
2009.04.28, 02:45 PM
finally got to run my set last night, first off my kit was missing the tiny e clips that hold the lower arms on so i had to improvise with my precision superglue skills.

There are no E clips, the pins are held in by the front of the chassis.

VAzRACER
2009.04.28, 05:36 PM
Did anybody locktight the grub screws? I was considering using blue locktight but the grub screws are so small it would probably make a mess. Just wondering if anybody else did or if anybody has lost a grub screw because they didnt.

I used some locktight on mine, I put a drop on the table and dipped the grub screw in it while it was on the end of the wrench. Just use as little as possible and it wont be messy.

Felix2010
2009.04.28, 08:15 PM
SETUP:
96mm
350z body
side damper rear suspension
med h plate
SSG's rear
k30 slick fronts
R1 750's
PN 70 (2008)
ATM top shock
0 toe (for now)
silver front springs and the E shaft is @ 6:00

Marcus could you share any info on your side-damper system for 96mm ? I know Reflex said they were working on it but haven't heard much lately.
Is it better than 98mm with the PN V4 mount + Reflex's 98mm side damper system?

Could you post a pic maybe?
Thank you

MantisMMA
2009.04.28, 10:56 PM
Marcus could you share any info on your side-damper system for 96mm ? I know Reflex said they were working on it but haven't heard much lately.
Is it better than 98mm with the PN V4 mount + Reflex's 98mm side damper system?

Could you post a pic maybe?
Thank you


it is not a prototype as CT wants to do it different than the way i did but it works, it is definately better than the 98 version but 96mm in itself is better! i like being able to seperate the two different planes in the rear suspension, with the DDS it is harder to tune but possible. it is alot more consistent mainly due to the fact that if you use an oil shock, it never gets dirty and will always react the same and the shock tube is almost as good, especially if you put a sleeve over it to keep the dirt out (im working on a solution for that!). i will post a pic tomorrow. i run a side damper on my mod car at 98mm and it handles very similar. i am shocked that more people dont run 96mm......it is the best of both worlds!
first week out with the side damper i beat my best lap by 2 tenths and my mean also dropped 2 tenths! then i added the PN front and everything dropped even more!

CristianTabush
2009.04.29, 01:01 AM
I would not say it is necessarily better than the 98mm version, but it is different and works really well on low to mid grip tracks. On the higher grip tracks, the car tends to tumble and traction roll a bit. The main reason why we have not pulled the trigger on a 96mm version is due to the lack of body availability. At the time, the 2 bodies that work the best in this wheelbase are the 350Z and Aston Martin. These bodies are hard to get. Kyosho seems to be trending towards 98mm and longer wheelbases now, so we'd like to see how the market is going to develop. If Kyosho is not releasing bodies worthy of running in 96mm wheelbase, what is the point in having parts developed specifically for it? The AWD is a different beasts and it seems the bodies that work for 94 and 98 all work very well with 96, so this is not as big of a concern. At the time I have been experimenting with 98mm specific bodies and I REALLY like the results on the 02. We'll see where we go from here.

Felix2010
2009.04.29, 09:36 AM
Thank you both Marcus and CT for the info.

I have a 98mm V4 PN mount and I'm running RR's 98 Side Damper and I love it! Rear grip is never an issue and the car is very neutral.

I also have a 96mm MR02 with PN's LCG 94-98 mount and a DDS, which I like a lot but just a little bit less than the 98 MR02 with RR's Side Damper.

I hope to hear more about a 96mm Side Damper from you guys!.

lfisminiz
2009.05.03, 10:09 PM
Got to test this out...finally. The tack was the last HFAY big track layout. Im running it in 98MM with a pan body for the up comming PN mod races. I got to say im impressed. Not much of a mod racer fan (prefer 70T), but just winging the A-arm set-up, it ran great right off. Made slight changes because the front had huge front grip. Toned it down some. Works really well so far.:)

GIHOSU
2009.05.06, 09:35 PM
I agree with Larry, it works really well. I installed the front end on my 70T car(96mmx6mm/disk damper,Bl under,Gr over/64p 11/54/0F,2R/PN6 F+R/350 2007 body with the rear end chopped and smoothed). Today was my first practice day and I was pleased. I actually had to set the ST CURVE at -10% on my EX-10 for the first time, I usually run 0. Even on this first run it seemed smooth. The ability to place the car on the track where I wanted was improved. I was also able to correct mid-turn more effectively if needed. The grip is inceased, I have an oversteering style and this works great for me.

I had to swap the tie rod from stock to a Kyosho 6 (2.0') to get close to 0' toe. I everyone else's on the wide side like mine?

btw, I want a 96mm side damper too...

eztuner12
2009.05.07, 12:19 AM
Again, you guys are killing me with envy:(
.
I guess this is the first time, I read everyone agrees on how great an upgrade part is:eek:

Come on PN, you aftermarket parts "genius", you can come up with an unequal double- A -arm front suspension for the 4wd:):):):):).
Cheers

yasuji
2009.05.07, 01:06 AM
I agree with Larry, it works really well. I installed the front end on my 70T car(96mmx6mm/disk damper,Bl under,Gr over/64p 11/54/0F,2R/PN6 F+R/350 2007 body with the rear end chopped and smoothed). Today was my first practice day and I was pleased. I actually had to set the ST CURVE at -10% on my EX-10 for the first time, I usually run 0. Even on this first run it seemed smooth. The ability to place the car on the track where I wanted was improved. I was also able to correct mid-turn more effectively if needed. The grip is inceased, I have an oversteering style and this works great for me.

I had to swap the tie rod from stock to a Kyosho 6 (2.0') to get close to 0' toe. I everyone else's on the wide side like mine?

btw, I want a 96mm side damper too...

i run a "0" toe bar.....imo...any more than that makes the car too twitchy...
with the "0" bar...lifting the car off the board will produce toe out.....with batteries and clips, no body...@ rest"static load...will produce almost "0" toe
and @ bottomed....you will then have toe in....remember this has active toe and camber......test them all.....and also do not forget to test ride height.;)
this frint end has been a very good learning experience for me....:D
ps.....EZTUNER......get a mro2 so you can really see how "genius" PN racing really is.......;)

eztuner12
2009.05.07, 01:22 AM
i run a "0" toe bar.....imo...any more than that makes the car too twitchy...
with the "0" bar...lifting the car off the board will produce toe out.....with batteries and clips, no body...@ rest"static load...will produce almost "0" toe
and @ bottomed....you will then have toe in....remember this has active toe and camber......test them all.....and also do not forget to test ride height.;)
this frint end has been a very good learning experience for me....:D
ps.....EZTUNER......get a mro2 so you can really see how "genius" PN racing really is.......;)

Yep they are geniuses:), have no doubt in my mind, absolutely!!!! That’s way I “insist” in one of this great double- A- arms for the 4WD, it would work perfect with the four independent suspensions system, especially with SAS.
Cheers

PNracing
2009.05.07, 02:04 AM
Again, you guys are killing me with envy:(
.
I guess this is the first time, I read everyone agrees on how great an upgrade part is:eek:

Come on PN, you aftermarket parts "genius", you can come up with an unequal double- A -arm front suspension for the 4wd:):):):):).
Cheers

still need solve some technical problem, but should be couple months

eztuner12
2009.05.07, 12:23 PM
still need solve some technical problem, but should be couple months

OH YEAH!!!!!
:eek: WOW!!! So we MA-010 4wd fans will finial have a double -A- arm front suspension. GREAT!!!:D
THXXX… Mr. PN:):)
Cheers

Cherub1m
2009.05.07, 03:52 PM
still need solve some technical problem, but should be couple months

WOW!!! at last, lets all take a moment of silence........................................... .................................................. .......................................Ok, thank you:D.

Philip, your "THE MAN". Also, you got a great first name:D

benmlee
2009.05.09, 01:03 PM
still need solve some technical problem, but should be couple months

Update:
Space in the AWD is definitely a challenge. Overall concept and layout is complete, and everything fits. Did a "stress test" on the main bracket, and it failed. Good thing there is enough space to add material. Now it pass. Took some materal out from strong area to make it light. Things are definitely tight. Need to check the A-arms to make sure they are robust, but those are usually ok. Maybe couple more days, and first iteration will be ready for prototype :)

EMU
2009.05.09, 01:10 PM
Will the AWD A-Arms have a wider track?

Old Crow
2009.05.09, 04:11 PM
Is this just the front, or rear too? Maybe that comes later?

eztuner12
2009.05.09, 04:51 PM
Update:
Space in the AWD is definitely a challenge. Overall concept and layout is complete, and everything fits. Did a "stress test" on the main bracket, and it failed. Good thing there is enough space to add material. Now it pass. Took some materal out from strong area to make it light. Things are definitely tight. Need to check the A-arms to make sure they are robust, but those are usually ok. Maybe couple more days, and first iteration will be ready for prototype :)

Thanks for the up-date Ben.
Really looking forward for an excellent product, as customary from PN and your design table.
Cheers

EMU
2009.05.10, 04:11 AM
I had a chance to run the A-Arm suspension today on my 70t pan car... Took a couple tire changes to get the balance right. I changed from WTF, but kept the same wheels... The car had more entrance and exit steering. The only real problem that I had with it was that the track is pretty bumpy, and on the sweepers I found it would wander a little. Nothing that would put it out of control, but I had to pay a little more attention than I did with the WTF. I did not do a head to head comparison, but I felt that the car may be slightly faster with the A-Arm, but easier to drive in traffic with the WTF. My confidence wasnt high enough with the control over the bumps to attempt tight passes.

Next week I will try it out with a mod motor and see how it does... I used the stock springs, camber adjustment in the upward position, 1 shim on each side of the bracket for caster... I think once I get the hang of tuning it and driving, it will really shine. With a 70t motor, it wont show as much of a difference compared to faster motors.

benmlee
2009.05.10, 05:38 PM
Will the AWD A-Arms have a wider track?


Baseline is to have stock width A-Arms for both front and back. Stock width would allow people to use stock autoscale rims instead of racing rims. Autoscale rims adds character to the car. Making a wider option should be easy once a stock width is done. It would be more expensive since you will need a longer driveshaft and tierod. Probably a natural width increase would be 2.5mm each side. That would make the front the same as MR02.

EMU
2009.05.10, 06:06 PM
That would be ideal Ben :D No need to go wider...

eztuner12
2009.05.10, 07:04 PM
Hi Eugene & Ben,

I also think that wider A-arms would jeopardize the system through possible bending or damaging on an accident.

The actual steering knuckles have the steering arms parallel to the chassis. If you change to a more angled to the center of the chassis steering arms, you will accomplish a simpler and less expensive solution in line to eliminate the front end sliding, when going thru the curves.

Cheers

MantisMMA
2009.05.10, 07:56 PM
what in the world is " front end sliding"????? do you mean scrub?

Cherub1m
2009.05.10, 08:22 PM
Baseline is to have stock width A-Arms for both front and back. Stock width would allow people to use stock autoscale rims instead of racing rims. Autoscale rims adds character to the car. Making a wider option should be easy once a stock width is done. It would be more expensive since you will need a longer driveshaft and tierod. Probably a natural width increase would be 2.5mm each side. That would make the front the same as MR02.

Ok, did I read this correctly? A-Arms for both front and back? those this means PN is making a double A-Arm system for the rear of the AWD?

MantisMMA
2009.05.10, 09:34 PM
why spend this kind of money on a part if your not gonna race it? the track should be widened at least on the front. other wise you will lose most of the gain from the suspension because of the ridiculous offsets we have to run now. racing parts are for race cars!

eztuner12
2009.05.10, 09:54 PM
what in the world is " front end sliding"????? do you mean scrub?

Yep, sliding sideways or scrubbing.
Cheers;)

EMU
2009.05.11, 02:52 AM
Marcus, I think that they want to target the entire AWD market first, then work on the wider track for the hardcore racers. Once they get the main bracket setup, it should be easier to make longer arms, universals and tie rod. There are some people that will buy it to use the bodies that come with the AWD.

Personally, I would only be interested in an MR02 width front end setup... I wish that the MR02 version was wider as well. I dont run anything more than 1mm front offset, usually no offset. Im running 0 offset with the a-arms on my pan car.

Cherub1m
2009.05.11, 09:11 AM
Guys wider is not always better, especially if your not widening the rear, the car will understeer and not rotate well. The point of diminishing returns will show its ugly head. In short you don't want to be to narrow, but you don't want to be to wide either.

Ok, did I read this correctly? A-Arms for both front and back? those this means PN is making a double A-Arm system for the rear of the AWD?

Now, back to my last question :D I know PN is making the double A-Arm suspension for the front of the MA010, but the last statement by Benmlee eluded to a possible rear double A-Arm for the MA010. Is that true? Benmlee? someone...confirm please:D?

benmlee
2009.05.11, 03:33 PM
Now, back to my last question :D I know PN is making the double A-Arm suspension for the front of the MA010, but the last statement by Benmlee eluded to a possible rear double A-Arm for the MA010. Is that true? Benmlee? someone...confirm please:D?

Yup, the plan is for both front and back. Just the front alone is no good since the back will still be stock or Atomic SAS. There would ba a mismatch at least in brands in suspension. It would be cleaner to have matching front and rear ends.

Cherub1m
2009.05.11, 04:38 PM
Yup, the plan is for both front and back. Just the front alone is no good since the back will still be stock or Atomic SAS. There would ba a mismatch at least in brands in suspension. It would be cleaner to have matching front and rear ends.

Cool!!!:D Will this design incorporate a damper shock (where you can add grease silicon grease to the shock...etc) with both front and back or just in back?

MantisMMA
2009.05.11, 05:11 PM
Guys wider is not always better, especially if your not widening the rear, the car will understeer and not rotate well. The point of diminishing returns will show its ugly head. In short you don't want to be to narrow, but you don't want to be to wide either.



your not widening the track because the offset will be smaller, what you will end up with is the same track but a much better offset....scrub sux!! i still find it hard to believe that someone that is not racing is gonna spend 150.0o on a suspension system that they will never feel the benefit of because they want to use AS wheels! if i was a betting man i would bet that the rear will remain stock width and the front will be mr02 width, it just makes more sense.

eztuner12
2009.05.11, 05:51 PM
your not widening the track because the offset will be smaller, what you will end up with is the same track but a much better offset....scrub sux!! i still find it hard to believe that someone that is not racing is gonna spend 150.0o on a suspension system that they will never feel the benefit of because they want to use AS wheels! if i was a betting man i would bet that the rear will remain stock width and the front will be mr02 width, it just makes more sense.

:rolleyes: Why would some one buy an 800 or 1,000hp Super Car to go to his work or cruise @??
Because they have the $ and want to spend it, just because they feel like it!!
It is their $ not yours.:):)
Cheers:cool:

EMU
2009.05.11, 07:46 PM
The majority of people that would buy the part, would buy it for performance gains. At the stock front width, there would be much less of a gain in performance compared to MR02 width.

The few that would buy it for bling factor, do not make up the majority of people that would buy such a part. Most would buy it to use on wider bodies, that would run much better with a wider front.

There is alot more to do if you make it for a wide front, which is why I think they are looking to make it stock width first, then possibly work on a wide version. I think that the sales would be disappointing if they follow that method. I dont think anyone I know would buy an AWD A-Arm set, unless it was wide track in the front. None of us use narrow bodies on our AWDs, so there would not be enough of a benefit to go with the A-Arm set unless it was a wide version.

eztuner12
2009.05.11, 08:01 PM
Hi Eugene
I certainly will acquire one; to me the front end sliding sideways is no issuing what so ever. I just learned to use it on my benefit.
I really see the steering block with an angled steering arm toward the center of the chassis a better option than wider track at front.
Cheers.

pfcparts
2009.05.12, 01:51 AM
I've always had a 90mm awd and like 90mm bodies.

Since PN is pushing a 90mm mount, I can see it being
released at stock fronts for the people who like to run
90s with the 02 option later. It'd be nothing more than
swapping out a few parts and would be a good decision imo...

I'd pick one up at stock fronts to run my favorite awd/90
bodies... It's nice to have that option.

-----

150? :eek: At that price it better be a 02 conversion with
all the necessary parts.

-----

That comment above is akin to some meathead saying
any martial arts should be studied only to "fight" in the
octagon... :p

My buddy collects guns, should he go around
shooting people (as that's what guns are for) to
feel the benefits of such items?

Strangely enough, people tend to do things that are
interesting and fun to them. :p


parts

MantisMMA
2009.05.15, 02:34 PM
:rolleyes: Why would some one buy an 800 or 1,000hp Super Car to go to his work or cruise @??
Because they have the $ and want to spend it, just because they feel like it!!
It is their $ not yours.:):)
Cheers:cool:



this may be true but PN is a race company and they products strive because of racing , not driving on hardwood or drifting on a table top. the point of my comment is that why make a race product for the blingers first and than make it for the racers later when just about every month the company is sponsering a large race....they build race cars and parts! with that being said do a poll on what front offsets racers are running. i know that i personally run +3.5 f 1.5 r as do all of RR, making the front end +2mm would be perfect. who actually runs 0 offset fronts anyway? all i am saying is that if your gonna build a front end that is narrow and then say that " we will make a wider one later" why would i spend that much money on something that i am gonna replace as soon as the wide hits the market? at the end of the day PN as well as any company is in it to make money.

arch2b
2009.05.15, 02:43 PM
this may be true but PN is a race company and they products strive because of racing , not driving on hardwood or drifting on a table top. the point of my comment is that why make a race product for the blingers first and than make it for the racers later when just about every month the company is sponsering a large race
the qnty of blingers far outnumbers the qnty of racers. they build a product that sells first, updates later. makes perfect sense. recoup the development costs with the standard than release tuning options for the selective buyers.

at the end of the day PN as well as any company is in it to make money.
exactly, see reply to above.

MantisMMA
2009.05.15, 03:01 PM
how good would it be for them to hold a race and no one in the AWD class except for the sponsered drivers is using the product? now that the front end has been proven EVERYBODY will have it , in fact it may be impossible to even win soon without the 2wd front end!!! that is domination and that is what sell products. if they release a narrow front there is no way that it will outperform the stock type suspension ( 3r and such) especially for the dollar value. so the racers in effect will not be forced to get it until the wide versions are release. also when i say wide i only mean mr02 wide.

arch2b
2009.05.15, 03:36 PM
again, a majority are not 'racers'. the majority never see's a competitive event but buys what they see and like from home or clubs.

'racers' validate and influence sales but are far from being the driving force behind them. being overall 'cool' is more of a driving force than what person x says. with the exception being negative feedback which reduces the preceived value.

ianc
2009.05.15, 05:31 PM
Dud3s,

Not to be a down, but how about arguing over the pluses and minuses of the upcoming PN AWD suspension in the thread Richard started recently:

http://www.mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31678

and leave this one for the 02 version? Thanks,

ianc

pfcparts
2009.05.15, 05:31 PM
Can anything beat the stock setups? Maybe that's the reason
K doesn't revise it... We should all quit and go back to the
stock ends and stop this innovation...:D

-----

It makes perfect sense for PN to do it with the
stock first and ream you with the option cvds and
longer arm parts later...

Just look at the a arms for the 02s.:D

-----

Sadly enough, these prices nowdays are probably
limiting them to the sponsored drivers anyways...

-----

Access gentlemen. Some people don't have nearby tracks
or the 4 hours round trip to the nearest track, so we're stuck
with our home tracks or tabletops lol. Will I feel the benefits
of most of my crap? Probably not on my current "track".
Do I support the scale? To a point where it becomes elitist
and isn't fun or cool anymore which is sadly becoming the case.


parts

eztuner12
2009.05.15, 06:04 PM
Hi MantisMMA.

You can keep using what you actually have or wait until PN comes out with a wider 2-A-arm for the 2wd; perchance wait until some other manufacturer produce a wider 2-A-arm. You have many OPTIONS, and no one will force you to select one or spend the $ you don’t want to spend; it would be your own personal decision:).

BTW, wider front end is not the exclusive solution in rank to control the front sideway sliding scenario.

Regarding 4wd, this front end sliding effect is rather needed, certainly “under control”, in rank to make fast turns, chicanes & others, one of those things that it is a matter of preference to each personal driving skills and style.

Business wise ($), arch2b comment was right on target.

Cheers;)

yasuji
2009.05.16, 03:37 AM
t....scrub sux!!

I LOVE FR TIRE SCRUB......:p

EMU
2009.05.16, 03:44 AM
I LOVE FR TIRE SCRUB......:p
You are one of the few that do... but it does work for you :confused:

Got this on my MR02 90mm MM car right now, having fun... need to change the travel limiters and try some grease on the shock and see if it makes any difference... I couldnt beat my 94mm MM 430GT with .5 caster MR02 towers lap time with this setup, but its not too far off. Going to race it tomorrow in super stock class (Speedy 07/ATM Stock limit). Should be fun :cool: I am currently using -1N wheels to get less scrub :p

eztuner12
2009.05.16, 03:48 AM
Well, well I guess I am not the only one.

This evening I was talking with few South Florida 4WD gas PRO pals that came over, about front end sliding sideways and they where wandering how could they make it thru without it…:eek:

As I say, it is a matter of preference:).

Cheers

eztuner12
2009.05.16, 03:53 AM
Dud3s,

Not to be a down, but how about arguing over the pluses and minuses of the upcoming PN AWD suspension in the thread Richard started recently:

http://www.mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31678

and leave this one for the 02 version? Thanks,

ianc

Yep we should move there for hot discussions:):):D
Cheers

eztuner12
2009.05.16, 03:56 AM
You are one of the few that do... but it does work for you :confused:

Got this on my MR02 90mm MM car right now, having fun... need to change the travel limiters and try some grease on the shock and see if it makes any difference... I couldnt beat my 94mm MM 430GT with .5 caster MR02 towers lap time with this setup, but its not too far off. Going to race it tomorrow in super stock class (Speedy 07/ATM Stock limit). Should be fun :cool: I am currently using -1N wheels to get less scrub :p

good luck Eugene!!!!;)

eztuner12
2009.05.16, 04:01 AM
I LOVE FR TIRE SCRUB......:p


Hi yasuji,
So soon, you will have the privilege of testing the new 4WD double A, right:D:D:D.
Keep us posted
Thx….
Cheers

JuniorWKR
2009.05.26, 12:55 PM
couldnt find if this question has been asked yet but has anyone had a problem with the rear end lifting upon off throttle through a turn after going to this front end... on power the car is amazing but i cant get off the throttle or the rear end kicks out...

ianc
2009.05.26, 01:09 PM
Hi Junior,

In my experience, the PN front end just offers much more grip than the stock front end, which means if nothing else changed, your setup is now unbalanced, so you have a few options to try:

1) less grip in front - go to a set of less sticky tires
2) more grip in rear - go to a set of stickier tires
3) tune suspension settings for more grip in rear - Stiffer springs in front, try the swaybar if not using it, softer T-plate in rear

Good luck!

ianc

JuniorWKR
2009.05.26, 01:12 PM
thank you for the quick response... will defintly try the harder front tires and front springs... was gonna try the softer tplate... any suggestions for the dps springs and oil... i went to a heavier oil which made the car handle much better but didnt aid in the rear lifting...

ianc
2009.05.26, 01:25 PM
No suggestions for dps oil I'm afraid; I never use it. I just use stiffer dps springs when I get chatter instead. This may not work as well as oil, but cleaning and re-oiling constantly is just more maintenance than I want to get into...

ianc

yasuji
2009.05.26, 01:39 PM
thank you for the quick response... will defintly try the harder front tires and front springs... was gonna try the softer tplate... any suggestions for the dps springs and oil... i went to a heavier oil which made the car handle much better but didnt aid in the rear lifting...

which springs are you using in the front? which stroke limiters? how much preload and droop in the front....i have found that if you run the car high in the front with alot of droop/very little preload,it will cause the car to wallow off throttle... to cure this i lower the front of the car at my track i use the green springs and the 4.5 limiter....and i run .5 mm droop with 20 deg pn fronts....
the same as i ran with the std front end.....

JuniorWKR
2009.05.26, 01:52 PM
which springs are you using in the front? which stroke limiters? how much preload and droop in the front....i have found that if you run the car high in the front with alot of droop/very little preload,it will cause the car to wallow off throttle... to cure this i lower the front of the car at my track i use the green springs and the 4.5 limiter....and i run .5 mm droop with 20 deg pn fronts....
the same as i ran with the std front end.....

im using the stock limiters and white springs with the softer sway bar.... i have the front height set at zero right now... no droop, no preload... i dont like lowereing the front on the aarm as all it does is lower ride hieght and add tons of preload.. im running trued pn 10's up front and kyosho 20 treaded in rear.. i was gonna try the yellow front springs... the green was way to soft for our track right now as it is compact and demanding... im assuming i will go with a softer front set up as soon as we get our new full scale layout..

MantisMMA
2009.05.26, 02:11 PM
Well, well I guess I am not the only one.

This evening I was talking with few South Florida 4WD gas PRO pals that came over, about front end sliding sideways and they where wandering how could they make it thru without it…:eek:

As I say, it is a matter of preference:).

Cheers

is there a reason why you dont just say " tire scrub"??? just wondering!

MantisMMA
2009.05.26, 02:36 PM
couldnt find if this question has been asked yet but has anyone had a problem with the rear end lifting upon off throttle through a turn after going to this front end... on power the car is amazing but i cant get off the throttle or the rear end kicks out...

i thought i was the only one! i could not even drive my car last week because of that, the car was perfect on saturday but on thursday on a grippier track it kept doin it. i added the yellow springs w/ no SB and it helped a little. so i went to k40 radials with SSG's and it all went away. it seems that on a grippy track the front end does not perform as well compared to the WTF. i am sure it can be tuned out. what is scaring me is that its kinda like the SAS in that you have to constantly tweak it for performance depending on track conditions throughout a race event.

junior, i dont know what body you are using but i had to raise the front of my 350z up a little because it would "dig" in on sharp corners and that was part of the rear end lift issue. also let me say that when running this front end in stock (pn70) i had absolutely no issues but it seems that with mod i have to run a completely different setup.

EMU
2009.05.26, 03:21 PM
I switched to the tallest Kyosho travel limiter...and preloaded the spring more. I still want to add a couple shims under the limiter, to limit travel a little more. I think the front end has a little too much up travel, which allows the rear inner wheel to lift.

I am still using the stock spring, but will try other springs soon...

eztuner12
2009.05.26, 03:29 PM
I switched to the tallest Kyosho travel limiter...and preloaded the spring more. I still want to add a couple shims under the limiter, to limit travel a little more. I think the front end has a little too much up travel, which allows the rear inner wheel to lift.

I am still using the stock spring, but will try other springs soon...

Hi
Perhaps on the future, the Mini-z 2wd will change to independent double-A- arm suspension at the rear-end as the 4wd or bigger scale cars.

JuniorWKR
2009.05.26, 03:30 PM
i thought i was the only one! i could not even drive my car last week because of that, the car was perfect on saturday but on thursday on a grippier track it kept doin it. i added the yellow springs w/ no SB and it helped a little. so i went to k40 radials with SSG's and it all went away. it seems that on a grippy track the front end does not perform as well compared to the WTF. i am sure it can be tuned out. what is scaring me is that its kinda like the SAS in that you have to constantly tweak it for performance depending on track conditions throughout a race event.

junior, i dont know what body you are using but i had to raise the front of my 350z up a little because it would "dig" in on sharp corners and that was part of the rear end lift issue. also let me say that when running this front end in stock (pn70) i had absolutely no issues but it seems that with mod i have to run a completely different setup.


im running the new 98mm nissan... +1 front and +2 rears... im running the white springs that are made for the kit...

do you also find that your chewing up rear tires faster than usual?...

ianc
2009.05.26, 03:30 PM
I think the front end has a little too much up travel, which allows the rear inner wheel to lift.

Good point EMU, didn't think of that...

ianc

JuniorWKR
2009.05.26, 03:32 PM
i just want pn to make a rear pod that offers 1 degree of camber.... just to keep the rear tires from rolling and to aid in greater rotation... they would have to make a pod that houses the motor on a angle and a rear diff with universal (like awd)... i think it would be great...

hrdrvr
2009.05.26, 03:34 PM
^ Tapered wheels would be easier, lol. Ive also seen posts in the past where people were trueing camber into their tires.

JuniorWKR
2009.05.26, 03:39 PM
yeah ive tried that... only works for a race or so...

if pn could make an active camber rear pod for 02, like awd... it would make the tires last the longest...

MantisMMA
2009.05.26, 03:42 PM
im running the new 98mm nissan... +1 front and +2 rears... im running the white springs that are made for the kit...

do you also find that your chewing up rear tires faster than usual?...

im chewing up all tires more!!! on that note has anyone else noticed how soft the latest batch of PN fronts are? the 10's are softer than the K30's by far. when Grant said that he uses PN20's i kinda flenched but just realized that they must be alot softer than the old stuff!

MikeL
2009.05.26, 03:43 PM
yeah ive tried that... only works for a race or so...

if pn could make an active camber rear pod for 02, like awd... it would make the tires last the longest...

Yeah but it would be a $100 pod to save $8 tires :) The tapered rims sound like the cleanest solution, jaco makes their nitro foams on a tapered rim.

MantisMMA
2009.05.26, 03:46 PM
i just want pn to make a rear pod that offers 1 degree of camber.... just to keep the rear tires from rolling and to aid in greater rotation... they would have to make a pod that houses the motor on a angle and a rear diff with universal (like awd)... i think it would be great...

i do reverse engineering here at my shop so i drew up a chassis and im pretty sure its impossible to mount the motor in at an angle and keep the wheel base at anything smaller than 100mm!! the motor would have to sit up way too high. it could be done on a pan type chassis because the batteries could be relocated. but i do agree it would be awesome!

JuniorWKR
2009.05.26, 03:51 PM
really!!!... that stinks... even for just 1 degree of camber.. thats like the screws coming lose and the motor hanging...

MantisMMA
2009.05.26, 04:04 PM
camber is not the problem, it could be .5 degree or 3 . there simply is nowhere to put the motor, keep in mind that the AWD diff only has 26 teeth (or somethin like that) so to get the correct ratio it would need to be at least 43 teeth and that also moves the motor further towards the front. its probably possible but its a big project! now im thinking about how to pull it off...........

JuniorWKR
2009.05.26, 04:07 PM
camber is not the problem, it could be .5 degree or 3 . there simply is nowhere to put the motor, keep in mind that the AWD diff only has 26 teeth (or somethin like that) so to get the correct ratio it would need to be at least 43 teeth and that also moves the motor further towards the front. its probably possible but its a big project! now im thinking about how to pull it off...........

what if you just used a reg rear pod that used inserts for the bearings... went with a universal rear shaft... and used shims for the motor.. you could make .5, 1 and 1.5 shims and inserts... that might work...

Rune
2009.05.26, 04:16 PM
Finally got to test this.
It worked very well. Not sure yet if it is faster than the WTF, as the lap times are pretty similar. I only tested three battery sets and did not try any other setup than what i was using with WTF.

One thing I have to ask you guys about:
What spare parts do I need to get? Have you bendt or broken anything on it yet?
BR
Rune

JuniorWKR
2009.05.26, 04:24 PM
what if you just used a reg rear pod that used inserts for the bearings... went with a universal rear shaft... and used shims for the motor.. you could make .5, 1 and 1.5 shims and inserts... that might work...

then the pinion on the motor and the spur gear will match up as stock...

JuniorWKR
2009.05.26, 04:25 PM
Finally got to test this.
It worked very well. Not sure yet if it is faster than the WTF, as the lap times are pretty similar. I only tested three battery sets and did not try any other setup than what i was using with WTF.

One thing I have to ask you guys about:
What spare parts do I need to get? Have you bendt or broken anything on it yet?
BR
Rune

have not broken anything yet and have been runing it very hard... i would say to be on safe side maybe keep a spare set of kingpins handy... a direct hit to the wheel will bend any kingpin... also those little friggin eclips as everytime i go tp put them on i shoot one across the room...

MantisMMA
2009.05.26, 04:35 PM
what if you just used a reg rear pod that used inserts for the bearings... went with a universal rear shaft... and used shims for the motor.. you could make .5, 1 and 1.5 shims and inserts... that might work...


what diff? you mean a regular AWD rear end?




i havent broken or bent anything on mine either, it seems pretty durable.

JuniorWKR
2009.05.26, 04:37 PM
what diff? you mean a regular AWD rear end?




i havent broken or bent anything on mine either, it seems pretty durable.

standard 02 diff just incorporate a universal joint in it so it will bend for the camber...

yasuji
2009.05.27, 12:35 AM
im using the stock limiters and white springs with the softer sway bar.... i have the front height set at zero right now... no droop, no preload... i dont like lowereing the front on the aarm as all it does is lower ride hieght and add tons of preload.. im running trued pn 10's up front and kyosho 20 treaded in rear.. i was gonna try the yellow front springs... the green was way to soft for our track right now as it is compact and demanding... im assuming i will go with a softer front set up as soon as we get our new full scale layout..

ok....in pressure rating..... white springs are the softest inn the kit.... then green, purple, red ,yellow
the red is odd as it is shorter than the others and it is the same as the std blk spring that comes with the kit
if u install the wht spring with zero preload you will most likely have droop under the weight of the car with batteries...
a good starting point is to install the batteries in the car without the body on and take note of where the knuckle post slides thru the toe bar.... as you unweight the front you should have no more than .5mm or visual change
understand that droop will give you more off power roll and more on power steering making a grippy front even grippier....

ianc
2009.05.27, 10:45 AM
white springs are the softest inn the kit.... then green, purple, red ,yellow. the red is odd as it is shorter than the others and it is the same as the std blk spring that comes with the kit

Grant, are you quite sure of this? Where are you getting this information?

It seems to be at odds with what Ben Lee is saying here at the bottom of the page:

http://mini-z-guide.com/A-Arm_Front_Susp.htm

ianc

JuniorWKR
2009.05.27, 11:17 AM
you are correct iun what the chart says... but i have to agree with grant to the extent of that the red springs definitly arent the softest and are harder than the green.. the colors seem to be a little messed up...

yasuji
2009.05.27, 12:31 PM
when the first spring kits came in i was asked to test them....i tested each spring set first by feel then on my valve spring pressure tester
then drove every set.....every spring set was driveable....for me the fastest and most consistent was the green set....the purple set pushed a little more than the green and the yellow set felt sluggish on quick transitions ...
i have also found that the sluggishness can be tuned out by adding more preload to the spring....the beauty of this front end is that it has infinite possibilities when it comes to making the perfect set up for your driving style....
dont be afraid to try things outside of your norm.....if you dont try you will never know....;)

ianc
2009.05.27, 01:13 PM
[/quote]when the first spring kits came in i was asked to test them....i tested each spring set first by feel then on my valve spring pressure tester[/quote]

So, no offense, but either you or Ben is presenting us with incorrect data. As the front end's designer, Ben would seem the definitive source of information on it, but you seem to have done considerable testing on it as well.

I would like a definitive answer on it however. I will PM Ben and ask him to comment on it and possibly we can resolve it...

ianc

JuniorWKR
2009.05.27, 01:18 PM
i thought they would of made these springs the same colors as the 02 springs to keep the confusion to a miniumum... its no big deal it just sucks that ive spent two weeks trying to tune this front end using the wrong springs thinking that white was the second hardest like the others... but from what grant is saying i will go to red as that would be the equvilant to white on my 02... as long as it all gets figured out its no biggie..

yasuji
2009.05.27, 02:50 PM
when the first spring kits came in i was asked to test them....i tested each spring set first by feel then on my valve spring pressure tester[/quote]

So, no offense, but either you or Ben is presenting us with incorrect data. As the front end's designer, Ben would seem the definitive source of information on it, but you seem to have done considerable testing on it as well.

I would like a definitive answer on it however. I will PM Ben and ask him to comment on it and possibly we can resolve it...

ianc[/QUOTE]

bens chart is correct as he did the initial calculations ....however he did not produce it
there must have been a mix up @ the factory in the paint codes....it is possible....lol....
in actually, as in motorcycle racing, no 2 springs are exactly the same you can have 2 green springs but one may be .002" shorter than the other...@ this scale it it a huge diff

yasuji
2009.05.27, 02:59 PM
i thought they would of made these springs the same colors as the 02 springs to keep the confusion to a miniumum... its no big deal it just sucks that ive spent two weeks trying to tune this front end using the wrong springs thinking that white was the second hardest like the others... but from what grant is saying i will go to red as that would be the equvilant to white on my 02... as long as it all gets figured out its no biggie..

if you have been using the white spring the next step will be the red.....then green then purp then yellow please try adding more preload as it cleans up the wallow in the front end....

JuniorWKR
2009.05.27, 03:02 PM
if you have been using the white spring the next step will be the red.....then green then purp then yellow please try adding more preload as it cleans up the wallow in the front end....

will do... thanks for the help... hopefully i can get this set up in time for the jersy pn regional.... i have to make sure my car is tuned properlly in order to get outta your way;)

MantisMMA
2009.05.27, 03:03 PM
so where do the silver springs fit in as far as stiffness?

JuniorWKR
2009.05.27, 03:09 PM
if your talking about the springs that come with the kit it is equivalant to the red springs as grant had mentioned..

JuniorWKR
2009.05.27, 03:18 PM
if you have been using the white spring the next step will be the red.....then green then purp then yellow please try adding more preload as it cleans up the wallow in the front end....

sorry but this is diffferent than what you posted before

"ok....in pressure rating..... white springs are the softest inn the kit.... then green, purple, red ,yellow
the red is odd as it is shorter than the others and it is the same as the std blk spring that comes with the kit"

i hate to ask but can we just go over the color order one more time...

JuniorWKR
2009.05.27, 03:19 PM
and what sway bar are you running if any?

yasuji
2009.05.27, 05:52 PM
sorry but this is diffferent than what you posted before

"ok....in pressure rating..... white springs are the softest inn the kit.... then green, purple, red ,yellow
the red is odd as it is shorter than the others and it is the same as the std blk spring that comes with the kit"

i hate to ask but can we just go over the color order one more time...

red is the second stiffest.... but if you install as per the pervious setting it will drive like it is soft.... if you add preload it will drive like it is stiffer than the purple
sorry to confuse you....i am not a good teacher....lol

yasuji
2009.05.27, 05:54 PM
and what sway bar are you running if any?

no sway bar

JuniorWKR
2009.05.27, 08:38 PM
thanks for all your help grant it is greatly appreciated

pedrocamp
2009.05.27, 10:57 PM
I checked these springs on my spring rater (0.01g/0.01mm resolution) and found the order of stiffness just as Grant said: Soft White-Green-Purple-Red (Silver)-Yellow Hard. I did find the springs to be a bit stiffer than Ben's chart too. The Whites are very close in rate to the Greens. I also found my White to Purple springs to be 5.4-5.5mm tall, the Red (Silver)to be 5.3mm tall and the Yellows were 5.7mm tall. The spring guide screw adjusts in length 0.3mm per turn.
One thing to remember too, preload does not change spring rate on a linear spring. Once the chassis breaks through the preload the spring is not stiffer than a non-preloaded spring.
I have been running White springs on my car thinking they were stiffer!

ianc
2009.05.27, 11:58 PM
Soft White-Green-Purple-Red (Silver)-Yellow Hard

Pedro, thanks for your results. I believe I miked the thickness of the wire of the springs in an attempt to determine spring rate but got inconsistent results. That had been an accurate method with 02 springs, but here it didn't work, and I can't remember why. Perhaps they all measured the same? Can't recall...

I did PM Ben today and he responded that the original intention was as listed on his site, but the manufacturing results may have been something different. He said he'd check and let me (us) know. The additional stiffness you found could be related to the paint on the springs(!!).

Be good to sort this out because I've been using the white springs on my 935 thinking they were next-to-stiffest, but apparently that's not the case...

ianc

eztuner12
2009.05.28, 12:00 AM
I checked these springs on my spring rater (0.01g/0.01mm resolution) and found the order of stiffness just as Grant said: Soft White-Green-Purple-Red (Silver)-Yellow Hard. I did find the springs to be a bit stiffer than Ben's chart too. The Whites are very close in rate to the Greens. I also found my White to Purple springs to be 5.4-5.5mm tall, the Red (Silver)to be 5.3mm tall and the Yellows were 5.7mm tall. The spring guide screw adjusts in length 0.3mm per turn.
One thing to remember too, preload does not change spring rate on a linear spring. Once the chassis breaks through the preload the spring is not stiffer than a non-preloaded spring.
I have been running White springs on my car thinking they were stiffer!


Hi pedrocamp.
:eek:WOW! A spring load rater tool, that can be use on Mini-zs suspension springs. That is definitely, a must have tool.
More info about you spring rater PLEASE!:)
Advance thxxx……
Cheers;)

benmlee
2009.05.28, 12:08 AM
Looks like the springs colors were different than in the chart. There was a miscommunication somewhere. Here is the corrected spring chart:
Thanks to Grant and others for noticing it.

http://www.mini-zracer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27347&stc=1&d=1243483602

phea
2009.05.28, 02:08 AM
is there a trick getting the kyosho tie rods to be smooth? I already polished the arm's but its binding at the tie rods. Are the new PN tie rods suppose to eliminate this?

yasuji
2009.05.28, 02:35 AM
is there a trick getting the kyosho tie rods to be smooth? I already polished the arm's but its binding at the tie rods. Are the new PN tie rods suppose to eliminate this?

yes... i got a tie rod tonight.....the "bean" shape extends farther to the rear reducing the friction points on the knuckle post

pedrocamp
2009.05.28, 07:06 AM
The paint could make the springs stiffer, especially ones this small, but the painted Red and non-painted silver springs were about the same rate. Whether these are the same springs or not I don't know (Ben?) but if they are there wasn't much difference paint or no paint. Paint does affect stiffness if the end coils are painted/glued together. When the end coils breaks free the spring will soften up. Take a small knife and break the end coils loose if your springs are "glued" together. I know some strip the paint off their larger scale springs to make them more consistent but of course harder to identify.
I built the spring rater years ago when I was racing 10th touring car. I can post a photo later but for these little springs I just added a scale with finer resolution. The travel resolution was already fine enough. If I remember, Niftech and some other company sold raters years ago but I haven't looked recently.
I have two sets of A-Arm springs, when I get time I will test both sets, several times for verification, and post some numbers, see if they match Ben's calculated (I assume) rates.

hrdrvr
2009.05.28, 09:34 AM
Does anyone have the size of the allen key for the tiny set screws? Ive got my front end in the process of assmebly, but dont have anything even remotely close to small enough to fit.

JuniorWKR
2009.05.28, 09:57 AM
pn sells the tool which can also be used for there aluminium pod pinion gears... great tool to have... wont strip out on you...

JuniorWKR
2009.05.28, 09:58 AM
and if i remember correctly i thought a allen key came with the kit?

hrdrvr
2009.05.28, 10:11 AM
^ Mine didnt come with an allen key. I was told by some one else it would, but I was also told I would get springs with it. I guess they are coming now with the springs as an option set.....I guess the tool is an option too :(

For now I just dropped regular machine screws in the holes, so atleast I can get this thing on the track. One of the screws is a little long though, so it looks funny, and Im not sure if itll fit under a body, lol.

JuniorWKR
2009.05.28, 10:17 AM
^ Mine didnt come with an allen key. I was told by some one else it would, but I was also told I would get springs with it. I guess they are coming now with the springs as an option set.....I guess the tool is an option too :(

For now I just dropped regular machine screws in the holes, so atleast I can get this thing on the track. One of the screws is a little long though, so it looks funny, and Im not sure if itll fit under a body, lol.

if you buy a pn pinion it will come with the allen key you need

hrdrvr
2009.05.28, 10:25 AM
My dad has some of those pinions. Ill see if hes got the tool. Thanks for the info J!

hrdrvr
2009.05.28, 10:40 AM
Found one, and have 'em installed!

JuniorWKR
2009.05.28, 10:47 AM
after you get your front end installed and tuned dont forget the lock thight on those little set screws... this way when you take apart for cleaning or repair or to swap springs you wont lose your setting...

ianc
2009.05.28, 12:05 PM
Looks like the springs colors were different than in the chart. There was a miscommunication somewhere. Here is the corrected spring chart:
Thanks to Grant and others for noticing it.

http://www.mini-zracer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27347&stc=1&d=1243483602

Ben, thanks for getting back to us and helping to clear this up. However, I do notice one small discrepancy still:

Your chart shows the stock silver spring as being equivalent to the purple, but Grant and Pedro have found that the red is closer to the stock. Any comment on that?



A couple other things as well:

Is it expected that this set of colored springs be purchased separately? One front end I've purchased came with it, and the other didn't...

Also, one front end I have came with an aluminum top ball, whereas the other's is made of delrin or some type of plastic. Is this a running change to be expected in future?



Finally, I would like to make some suggestions for V2:

The allen hole in the bottom of the spring guide screw is of insufficient depth to attain good force when tightening against the 1 mm allen grub screw as suggested. Currently I find it is more effective to hold the guide screw in place and tighten the grub screw against it. Perhaps the allen hole could be made deeper?

Additionally, as some have suggested, it would be nice to include some spares in the kit. Namely, one extra grub screw, one extra e-clip, and the 1 mm allen key used for tightening the grub screw would be welcome additions.

Thanks for listening,

ianc

yasuji
2009.05.28, 01:08 PM
[QUOTE=ianc;349383]



A couple other things as well:

Is it expected that this set of colored springs be purchased separately? One front end I've purchased came with it, and the other didn't...

the first front ends came with the spring set option as a promo

Also, one front end I have came with an aluminum top ball, whereas the other's is made of delrin or some type of plastic. Is this a running change to be expected in future?

that was a stainless ball .... now all front ends come with delrin balls for ease of assembly and smoothness....and should be considered a consumable item as it will wear over time....(better the ball rather than the arm)

Finally, I would like to make some suggestions for V2:

The allen hole in the bottom of the spring guide screw is of insufficient depth to attain good force when tightening against the 1 mm allen grub screw as suggested. Currently I find it is more effective to hold the guide screw in place and tighten the grub screw against it. Perhaps the allen hole could be made deeper?

use a good allen tool and this should not be an issue

Additionally, as some have suggested, it would be nice to include some spares in the kit. Namely, one extra grub screw, one extra e-clip, and the 1 mm allen key used for tightening the grub screw would be welcome additions.

all spares are available from pn racing on the rckenon.com web site
Thanks for listening,

ianc

JuniorWKR
2009.05.28, 01:21 PM
the delrin balls make a HUGE difference... My first front end came with the stainless steel balls and it took me over oan hour of polishing and wotking the front end to get it smooth.... my second kit came witht the delrin balls and all i had to do was put it together with no polishing and it was very smooth and tight... Nice job guys...

Now wheres my front and rear kits for my awd... ;)

yasuji
2009.05.28, 01:28 PM
the delrin balls make a HUGE difference... My first front end came with the stainless steel balls and it took me over oan hour of polishing and wotking the front end to get it smooth.... my second kit came witht the delrin balls and all i had to do was put it together with no polishing and it was very smooth and tight... Nice job guys...

Now wheres my front and rear kits for my awd... ;)

junior.....close you eyes and imagine........j/k....still on the drawing board....
:p

JuniorWKR
2009.05.28, 01:30 PM
CLOSE MY EYES.... i do enough of that when im racing... :rolleyes:... LOL...

I mean excuse me for wanting to get rid of my last atomic part... but if you guys want me to hold on to it i will... :eek:... LOL... j/k:p

dxm2
2009.05.28, 01:52 PM
I agree with IanC. Charge another $3 or $4 and include an allen wrench, a spare grub screw and and spare eclip. It was a challenge to find a store that sold a 1mm allen.

JuniorWKR
2009.05.28, 02:01 PM
im willing to pay for the extra parts when needed... i just wish all the kits came with the springs like my forst one or at least offer single color packages... like my 02 cars as i have 12 of them i run the same front springs on all of them so for every car i had to buy an entire set of front springs... needless to ssay i have enough of what i dont need...