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Skv012a
2009.04.03, 10:38 AM
So I was told that I'd power the motor and dunk it in a cup of water for a few minutes to break it in. How much power would it need? Would like 1 AA or AAA do the job or not? What about a C some other battery?

MantisMMA
2009.04.03, 02:17 PM
2 aaa batteries is perfect for 30-45 minutes. after you pull the motor out dip it in alchohol (to displace the water) , then lube the bushings with a light oil apply ONE DROP of a comm drop formula run it for about a minute and you should be good to go. try to use a large container for the water because it gets contaminated quick and gets warm/hot. i even put ice in the water!

EMU
2009.04.03, 02:34 PM
I recently did water break in for the first time. I was never a believer. I allways broke them in dry, with comm drops on 1 cell. Let me tell you, it makes a difference. The main benefit of the water is that it adds more load on the armature, and it keeps the comm/brushes clean of debris better than a dry brake in.

Now I use a motormaster, and the amount of amps that the motor draws while breaking in under water... I can understand why its done now. With a 70t, after water break in pulsed at 1v-2v for about 20 minutes, the motor draws .7A average on a quick test... Peak is .85A... I tested the numbers on my MotorMaster as well as a friends LRP Pulsar 3.

As Marcus said, a large container of water works well. And make sure that you clean the motor properly afterwards. You want to get the water out of the motor, it wont do any good.

Another good point that Marcus had. If you use comm drops, only use one small drop. Many people think they are going to get more speed if they put a couple drops... truth is, that they will slow down the motor, and gum up the comm...

rocketman
2009.04.03, 05:46 PM
I would suggest using only distilled water, no mineral deposits to leave on the comm and brushes.

ocean rodeo
2009.04.03, 06:07 PM
The only benefit you get from a water breakin is the brushes stay wet"lubricated" during the process.

Skv012a
2009.04.03, 06:40 PM
2AAs, now can I just connect their +s and -s together and run that to the motor or do I need to connect them ina series and then to the motor? Also, if I don't have any motor lube, are there alternatives/do I really need it?

Also, why 30 minutes? I talked to Tallgeese about this stuff before and he said 2 minutes or so is plenty.

Lastly, whats the dremel approach? Clamp the motor on a dremel and spin it(in water)?

ocean rodeo
2009.04.03, 07:21 PM
Hook the battery up to the motor and hold it in a cup of water. You really don't need to use any oil, thats what the water is for. 2 minutes is a bit quick. I would say 5-10. Thats how I use to break in my 1/10 on road motors.

MINIz guy11
2009.04.03, 09:15 PM
2 aaa batteries is perfect for 30-45 minutes. after you pull the motor out dip it in alchohol (to displace the water) , then lube the bushings with a light oil apply ONE DROP of a comm drop formula run it for about a minute and you should be good to go. try to use a large container for the water because it gets contaminated quick and gets warm/hot. i even put ice in the water!

Not to thread-jack, but I also have a question. Instead of alchohol, couldn't you use WD-40 to displace the water? It does stand for water displacement-40.

TALLGEESE
2009.04.03, 09:45 PM
2AAs, now can I just connect their +s and -s together and run that to the motor or do I need to connect them ina series and then to the motor? Also, if I don't have any motor lube, are there alternatives/do I really need it?

Also, why 30 minutes? I talked to Tallgeese about this stuff before and he said 2 minutes or so is plenty.


Igor, you can use a 2 cell AAA battery holder from Radio Shack or some other electronics store.. The battery holders are cheap, usually around one or two dollars.. I suggest doing the water dip technique for 15-30 minutes, not two, lol.. I'd also recommend using a large container for the water as others here have mentioned.. When I'm done breaking in my motors I just hit mine up with some Magnum Force or any type of electric motor cleaner to remove/dissipate all the water inside the motor..

Skv012a
2009.04.03, 09:47 PM
Well, save buying a battery holder, how would I want to connect the batteries- in a series or parallel?

ocean rodeo
2009.04.03, 09:56 PM
Either way you only need 1 volt or 1.5 for these motors

rocketman
2009.04.04, 12:24 AM
EMU and MantisMMa have the right idea's

The time needed to break in bruhes is the point at which the brushes come in complete contact with the comm. Length that takes depends on variables such as comm/brush composition, dipped vs. dry. My technique would be to spin the motor as slow and as long as you can stand it checking to make sure the brushes are seated occassionally. When they are seated that is when the brushes are broken in. I only use the wet dip method, with distilled water, which as taken out all the impure compounds in the water so they won't cause motor problems. Do not dip in a cup, get a 1 quart size tupperware bowl that is all cleaned and rinse it with rubbing alcohol. Dip your motor and let it run on 1.2 to 1.5 volts until it is powered out, Checking the wear all along. Make sure the water is clean, if not dump it out and start again and renew the process until the brushes are fully seated. Then you are done mechanically, now just follow MantisMMa and is directions to the letter. Oil and Comms don't mix well. Just google search wet dipping motors, you will probably find a lot of slot car guy who have techniques on sites and then you go with what you think sounds best and make changes to your technique as you gain experience.
Please no WD-40

Skv012a
2009.04.04, 01:51 AM
Ok. So 1 AA/AAA and into water for 20 minutes. Then rince w/ rubbing alc and good to go.

ocean rodeo
2009.04.04, 06:59 AM
Ok. So 1 AA/AAA and into water for 20 minutes. Then rince w/ rubbing alc and good to go.
Just clean the motor with motor spray thoroughly then oil the bushings and you will be fine.

MantisMMA
2009.04.04, 11:20 PM
Just clean the motor with motor spray thoroughly then oil the bushings and you will be fine.

motor spray does not replace water like alchohol does. use alchohol.

i am one of those "slot car guys" and have been breaking in these motors for about 7 years now! pick your own way of doing it but dont cross methods up. if you choose to do it my way than follow it. all of us have our particular ways of doing it. EMU's way will also work, he knows what he is doing too.


1.5volts is fine for dry break in but you need more voltage under water or the motor will "lug" and thats not good.......2 AAA batts. the point of using water is to dissipate the extra heat that the 2 batts will put out.


OCEAN, are you serious when you said that you dont need oil thats what the water is for? put some water in your 40k rpm mod motor and run it!!

The only benefit you get from a water breakin is the brushes stay wet"lubricated" during the process.

water is in no way or form a lubricant. the benefit from water break in is to dissipate heat.

im not tryin to pick on you OCEAN but the point of these forums is to educate and give out correct information.

EMU
2009.04.05, 04:41 AM
Interesting Marcus... I know that the water creates more resistance (70t motor pulls over an amp at 1.2v). I thought that might play into the break in process, to increase the wear on the brush.

I usually do my break in dry, and only recently started messing around with water break in. So far with good results.

ocean rodeo
2009.04.05, 12:26 PM
motor spray does not replace water like alchohol does. use alchohol.

i am one of those "slot car guys" and have been breaking in these motors for about 7 years now! pick your own way of doing it but dont cross methods up. if you choose to do it my way than follow it. all of us have our particular ways of doing it. EMU's way will also work, he knows what he is doing too.


1.5volts is fine for dry break in but you need more voltage under water or the motor will "lug" and thats not good.......2 AAA batts. the point of using water is to dissipate the extra heat that the 2 batts will put out.


OCEAN, are you serious when you said that you dont need oil thats what the water is for? put some water in your 40k rpm mod motor and run it!!

The only benefit you get from a water breakin is the brushes stay wet"lubricated" during the process.

water is in no way or form a lubricant. the benefit from water break in is to dissipate heat.

im not tryin to pick on you OCEAN but the point of these forums is to educate and give out correct information. Yes I am serious and yes water does act like a lubricant. I don't know about heat dissipation though I really never stuck my finger in the water. I have been breaking in motors for 20+ years and never once put oil on the brushes before submerging them. I always used motor spray to clean out the residue from the brushes and then oiled them properly, I never had a problem this way. To me alcohol dries out plastic and allows the bushing index to wear faster.. But to each his own. There are many ways to do this it's just a matter of preference. I am not at all offended by your statements. BTW I choose the dry break in method because I rather not use the motors own power for break in.

Skv012a
2009.04.09, 10:59 AM
say guys, what about wrapping the motor in some baggies of ice with a paper towel or something to absorb the moisture? That could technically be best of both worlds or not?

soyverde
2009.04.09, 11:22 AM
say guys, what about wrapping the motor in some baggies of ice with a paper towel or something to absorb the moisture? That could technically be best of both worlds or not?

If you aren't going to submerge your motor for break in and are worried about heat, a break in stand is probably your best bet. ;)

rocketman
2009.04.09, 02:59 PM
Emu, I have been dipping for 20+ years and the guy that I heard if from was this guy named Neal McCurdy who ran a company called Revtech. He made what I would consider the best electric 10th scale modified motors available and he introduced me to Big Jim Greenmeyer who is among, in my book, the top 4 10th scale motor builders/tuners ever. Big Jim ran a company called Team Checkpoint, that had the best looking endbell and motor can I have ever seen, it was a piece of art, and was either developer or co-developer of some of the most advanced brushed motors ever. He turned me on to this whole dipping thing with stock motors and taught me what to do and how to do it. My point is that there are multiple reasons for wet dipping motors but one of the reasons first used was to increase the wear on the brush and minimize the wear on a sealed can/endbell comm. So you are correct in your thoughts.

Slipstream
2009.04.09, 11:01 PM
Interesting Marcus... I know that the water creates more resistance (70t motor pulls over an amp at 1.2v). I thought that might play into the break in process, to increase the wear on the brush.

I usually do my break in dry, and only recently started messing around with water break in. So far with good results.

Eugene water puts a mechanical load on the motor by being a thicker "fluid" that the armature has to spin through.

Water also gets rid of arcing between the brushes and the comm and flushes the copper particles away.

One thing people should keep an eye on is excessive wear on the bushings. Check the radial play between the shaft and the bushings often during break-in and keep them lube. Sometimes the brushes are alot harder than the bushings and you end up with worn bushings by the time the brushes are fully broken in and seated.

Also a drop or two of dishwashing liquid soap in the water will help keep the comm clean.

Skv012a
2009.04.09, 11:23 PM
So... now we're using soap in the whole mixture lol? I don't doubt any of this, but half of it sounds pretty funny to a newbie like myself.

1FASWGN
2009.04.10, 01:21 AM
Yes, they do use soap and water mixture for break-in and someone was smart enough to put in it a bottle and market it as the big T (Trinity) break-in fluid.:rolleyes:

Skv012a
2009.04.10, 01:59 AM
Wow! Sounds like I'll have something to do this weekend. Also will need to find some lubricant for after-break since I don't have anything RC-specific. Last double-check, after water breaking, I should get a smaller container w/ alcohol and run the motor in that for a little bit to get rid of the water? I hear WD-40, but in case I won't find it I want to be sure of an alternative.

Also, do I run 2xAAA's dry or run the motor for a set amount of time? You guys mentioned .5-2 hrs here, but after talking to a motor-guru friend I heard until batteries run dry, aka half a day.

1FASWGN
2009.04.10, 02:11 AM
I stopped water dipping motor other than Tamiya silver can about 15 yrs ago.
and Big Jim also metion they( water dipping ) are not needed for modern RC motors.

Going by his doctrine:
break in motor brushes by using low voltage to prevent arcing.
No water dipping to prevent extra load and extreme temperature variation on the comm.
Duration depend on brush compound hardness and commutator roundness.
The key is to have the four corner of the brush face worn into the comm.

Very important is NOT to use a slave motor to drive it to break it in(ie. break-in stand). break-in stand do not account for brush angle changing force (haha, the word got filtered) that happen only when a motor is under actual load.

Slipstream
2009.04.10, 03:33 AM
I stopped water dipping motor other than Tamiya silver can about 15 yrs ago.
and Big Jim also metion they( water dipping ) are not needed for modern RC motors.

Going by his doctrine:
break in motor brushes by using low voltage to prevent arcing.
No water dipping to prevent extra load and extreme temperature variation on the comm.
Duration depend on brush compound hardness and commutator roundness.
The key is to have the four corner of the brush face worn into the comm.

Very important is NOT to use a slave motor to drive it to break it in(ie. break-in stand). break-in stand do not account for brush angle changing force (haha, the word got filtered) that happen only when a motor is under actual load.


I agree that the new 540 motors don't need water break in, but some (most) of these mini-z motors have brushes that have the reversed curvature like the Tamiya silver cans. Any idea why they are made this way?

rocketman
2009.04.10, 09:38 AM
I use kind of a combo technique. I have been breaking in my bushings on a motor stand and a slave drive motor until I feel there is a difference with the bushings along the lines of Reflex Racings tutorial then re-install the brushes and dip the motor according to Big Jim's Dipping technique and I am very pleased with the motor qualities vs other techniques. I think this works with the mini-z because it is not new technology we are dealing with hear in the motor, JMO, but some of the new brushes may require some adjusting of our techniques.

Gofast
2009.04.10, 02:27 PM
........but some (most) of these mini-z motors have brushes that have the reversed curvature like the Tamiya silver cans. Any idea why they are made this way?

If by reversed curvature you mean the curvature of the new brushes are perpendicular to the curvature of the comm then this is exactly the question that I have too. I was told that it has always been like this. It's counter logical since the whole point of breaking in is to get the brushes to sit well with the comm.

Anyone knows the answer?

Skv012a
2009.04.10, 03:45 PM
Meanwhile I'm confused again lol. So no water needed really? And low voltage would still be 2xAAA or maybe just 1 AAA or AA? How long would I want to run it for?

1FASWGN
2009.04.10, 04:54 PM
If by reversed curvature you mean the curvature of the new brushes are perpendicular to the curvature of the comm then this is exactly the question that I have too. I was told that it has always been like this. It's counter logical since the whole point of breaking in is to get the brushes to sit well with the comm.

Anyone knows the answer?

Perpendicular curvature was done to decrease sweep surface contact, so you will gain RPM without changing the duration of the timing.
A good side effect is the motor will break-in faster, the bad is you will have two groves that will be deeper on the comm.

this method is mainly use on motor that is high wind count to regain rpm without scarficing torque.

ocean rodeo
2009.04.10, 05:28 PM
This thread is hilarious LOL... for a 10 motor buy 3 and have a couple backups, either way there is no harm, driving is the main concern. The fastest motor means nothing if you can't drive. I am going to put mine in the microwave:D

Gofast
2009.04.10, 05:52 PM
Thanks for the explanation.

Perpendicular curvature was done to decrease sweep surface contact, so you will gain RPM without changing the duration of the timing.
A good side effect is the motor will break-in faster, the bad is you will have two groves that will be deeper on the comm.

this method is mainly use on motor that is high wind count to regain rpm without scarficing torque.

Gofast
2009.04.10, 05:54 PM
If you race and if you want to know why you can read the first paragraph. http://www.reflexracing.net/motor_break_in.asp. Otherwise, I concur.

This thread is hilarious LOL... for a 10 motor buy 3 and have a couple backups, either way there is no harm, driving is the main concern. The fastest motor means nothing if you can't drive. I am going to put mine in the microwave:D

rocketman
2009.04.10, 07:07 PM
Driving is the main thing in this class but all things being equal motor, batteries, chassis setup could be a difference maker. Not to take another trip down memory lane and talk about stupid things but after I beat my local hot shoe in 10th scale oval everybody was coming up to me and asking how fast I was so I told them that they need to put talcum on their lexan bodies and they would go faster ( I am reminded of this because DW on Nascar said it last week and I think it was something that HH did) So I picked up on it and for the next two weeks everybody was putting talcum on their bodies. There is also a theory that yellow is faster, it is true cause I read it here in another forum. Not to get off track. You do what makes ya happy.

1FASWGN
2009.04.10, 09:57 PM
This thread is hilarious LOL... for a 10 motor buy 3 and have a couple backups, either way there is no harm, driving is the main concern. The fastest motor means nothing if you can't drive. I am going to put mine in the microwave:D

I guess you haven't encounter a situation that your competition have the exact same driving style and car set up as yours, there is just no way you can Pass or lose him.. then you really wish you had that extra 50 rpm on the top.

I would suggest you not to microwave your motor for safety concern ;)
but it has been done before, you will have to bring your motor up to the magnets currie point so it will lose magnetic strength. That will allow the motor to spin faster but you do lose torque. you can use that motor for long sweeping track.:D

1FASWGN
2009.04.10, 10:35 PM
Just to put more information in this thread and to confuse more ppl.:D

Old (back in the 70's) brushes = High Graphite content
New (RC specific ) brushes = High metal content ( mainly copper, sometimes silver)
The more metal you have, the more power you will get. ( better conductivity)
Since the two surface are metal, brush life and comm. life suffer.

Water break-in is done in the Slot car haydays to wash away the graphite that is deposit onto the comm. that will allow a shorter break-in.

I don't do it because..water in ball bearing is bad and no mater how hard you dip, blow, suck, or whatever you do to get the moisture out it will still be in there.
It also make a big mess on my small work table. I also have $$$$ worth of electronics equipment that doesn't like water.

MantisMMA
2009.04.10, 11:28 PM
Meanwhile I'm confused again lol. So no water needed really? And low voltage would still be 2xAAA or maybe just 1 AAA or AA? How long would I want to run it for?


like i said before, use somebody's technique and follow it, dont try to mix and match techniques. in my opinion higher voltage water break in is the best. also dont run your motor in alchohol just dip it and shake it around . Mobil 1 0 weight is some really good motor lube. and NEVER dip your motor in WD40, it attracts dirt and will damage the comm.

Slipstream
2009.04.11, 12:56 AM
Perpendicular curvature was done to decrease sweep surface contact, so you will gain RPM without changing the duration of the timing.
A good side effect is the motor will break-in faster, the bad is you will have two groves that will be deeper on the comm.

this method is mainly use on motor that is high wind count to regain rpm without scarficing torque.

That's what I thought....but why should these motors have their brushes "fully broken in"? The sweep contact area would then be large.

Slipstream
2009.04.11, 01:07 AM
If by reversed curvature you mean the curvature of the new brushes are perpendicular to the curvature of the comm then this is exactly the question that I have too. I was told that it has always been like this. It's counter logical since the whole point of breaking in is to get the brushes to sit well with the comm.

Anyone knows the answer?

Ugh OLR is here. Is the cone zone following me? :eek: :D

1FASWGN
2009.04.11, 02:11 AM
That's what I thought....but why should these motors have their brushes "fully broken in"? The sweep contact area would then be large.

That why I never give a duration suggestion. Like i mention on my previous post, the Key is all 4 corner of the brush face in contact with the comm. no more no less. Too little contact you will lose timing, too much you will lose height in the brushes that translate into less spring tension on the brushes.

run it for a little than take you brushes off to check if they are ready, rinse and repeat :p for the water dipper.

I'm sure some of you are like....WTF why spend so much time and effort on break-in? Well ppl are always looking for an edge in racing, if you guys have any Q feel free to ask because i love to pass these knowlege on.:)

ocean rodeo
2009.04.11, 07:11 AM
I'm sure some of you are like....WTF why spend so much time and effort on break-in?

Because people love to tinker with their cars. It keeps it interesting. I still am a firm believer that driving is more important than that 20-50 rpm extra.

ocean rodeo
2009.04.11, 07:16 AM
New (RC specific ) brushes = High metal content ( mainly copper, sometimes silver)
The more metal you have, the more power you will get. ( better conductivity)
.

If thats the case baking soda will increase copper levels in water. This can be a breakthrough of a new technique. Maybe?:eek:

1FASWGN
2009.04.11, 07:53 AM
If thats the case baking soda will increase copper levels in water. This can be a breakthrough of a new technique. Maybe?:eek:

Maybe, please give that a try and let us know the result;).
also you might want to combine the technique of Microwaving you motor for maxium results.:rolleyes:

ocean rodeo
2009.04.11, 09:42 AM
LOL...;) I will today.

Slipstream
2009.04.11, 05:50 PM
That why I never give a duration suggestion. Like i mention on my previous post, the Key is all 4 corner of the brush face in contact with the comm. no more no less. Too little contact you will lose timing, too much you will lose height in the brushes that translate into less spring tension on the brushes.

run it for a little than take you brushes off to check if they are ready, rinse and repeat :p for the water dipper.

I'm sure some of you are like....WTF why spend so much time and effort on break-in? Well ppl are always looking for an edge in racing, if you guys have any Q feel free to ask because i love to pass these knowlege on.:)

Thanks for the info.

Scrapper
2009.04.11, 10:02 PM
what i do is run the motor in a cup of motor spray to clean/break it in

Skv012a
2009.04.13, 03:46 PM
Well, I got a big plastic box, added ice and water, connected my Speedy AWD to 2xAAA and dunked. Gonna run it in there for what, an hour or maybe a lil more, then get a smaller contained w/ alc and run it in that for a minute or two.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9ci4lgYbGQ

MantisMMA
2009.04.14, 09:37 AM
an hour is probably too long, check your brushes at about thirty minutes or so. i usually only run mine for about 45 minutes on a stock motor

Skv012a
2009.04.19, 02:03 AM
Well, does my video look right to you? I did 40 mins with icy, soapy water; then enough alcohol ina cup to cover the motor for 10-15 seconds and paper toweled/blew air as much as possible in between and after.

Slipstream
2009.04.20, 02:48 AM
Well, does my video look right to you? I did 40 mins with icy, soapy water; then enough alcohol ina cup to cover the motor for 10-15 seconds and paper toweled/blew air as much as possible in between and after.


I don't use icy water as the room temp water will be enough to keep the heat down. Also I don't put the power source (batteries) underwater. ;) Otherwise it looks good.

EMU
2009.04.20, 03:00 AM
The batteries are not submerged, they are just under the container he has the motor in.

Slipstream
2009.04.20, 03:08 AM
The batteries are not submerged, they are just under the container he has the motor in.

lol My bad. :rolleyes: You're right Eugene.

EMU
2009.04.20, 03:24 AM
I thought the same thing when I first watched the video... :p

Skv012a
2009.04.20, 09:29 AM
LOL! Glad it entertained you despite being such a short and simple vid.

Old Crow
2009.07.07, 08:51 AM
I stopped water dipping motor other than Tamiya silver can about 15 yrs ago.
and Big Jim also metion they( water dipping ) are not needed for modern RC motors.

Going by his doctrine:
break in motor brushes by using low voltage to prevent arcing.
No water dipping to prevent extra load and extreme temperature variation on the comm.
Duration depend on brush compound hardness and commutator roundness.
The key is to have the four corner of the brush face worn into the comm.

Very important is NOT to use a slave motor to drive it to break it in(ie. break-in stand). break-in stand do not account for brush angle changing force (haha, the word got filtered) that happen only when a motor is under actual load.

So basicly, your running the motor you want broken in, with say 1 AAA cell until the brushes are right? It makes sense that the angle from a slave motor/break in stand could be a bad thing when wearing in, but how is that different when you put it in you car and run it? I'm not criticizing you, I'm just trying to understand.

imxlr8ed
2009.07.07, 09:20 AM
Pushing the limit, in the interest of my own impatience, I have hooked up a fully charged 4 cell pack to a motor in tap water (in a custom modified plastic water bottle), left it run for about 2-4 minutes until the water got gray and cloudy, after that... sprayed it with some motor spray, oiled the bearings or bushings, then ran it. No problems!

On the newer motors with the opposed brushes, I usually make sure that the comm has full wear across the contact area as opposed to two lines of wear on the outer edges of the contact area.

I was always told that the point of the break-ins was to shape the brush into the comm for full contact between the two. The fact that it is done in water or on a break-in stand with another motor spinning it was to avoid the arcing that occurs. Arcing is the real enemy when breaking in, the water takes that out of the equation (or severely limits the damage from it).

I have also heard of racers polishing the bushings and the armature shaft with a very mild abrasive before spinning the motor up at all. Although you obviously can't do this with a handout motor at an event though because you have to disassemble it to do this.

Old Crow
2009.07.07, 12:56 PM
I have also heard of racers polishing the bushings and the armature shaft with a very mild abrasive before spinning the motor up at all. Although you obviously can't do this with a handout motor at an event though because you have to disassemble it to do this.

I thought the same thing, this sounds like a great idea, but in big events, your limited by what you can do. I guess for other, more minor events, you could get a advantage this way.

arch2b
2009.07.07, 01:49 PM
So basicly, your running the motor you want broken in, with say 1 AAA cell until the brushes are right? It makes sense that the angle from a slave motor/break in stand could be a bad thing when wearing in, but how is that different when you put it in you car and run it? I'm not criticizing you, I'm just trying to understand.

that is a very good point. when used for a mini-z, the motor sits in the similar position as it would in a break in stand with the same methods for pinion mesh. how do they differ?

MikeL
2009.07.07, 02:50 PM
Another tip is to check which way your brushes are oriented. I had gotten 2 pn 70t's at different times, the newer one had laydown style brushes, and the brushes wore out completely in a 45 min water breakin, the stand up ones were fine with the same procedure.

chad508
2009.07.07, 03:37 PM
Another tip is to check which way your brushes are oriented. I had gotten 2 pn 70t's at different times, the newer one had laydown style brushes, and the brushes wore out completely in a 45 min water breakin, the stand up ones were fine with the same procedure.

what is the difference in lay down and stand up brushes. how can i tell the difference?

MikeL
2009.07.07, 03:46 PM
what is the difference in lay down and stand up brushes. how can i tell the difference?

stand up the brush curve looks wrong until the brush is seated, a laydown the brush curve matches the comm curve. A stand up looks narrow and tall compared a the wide and short laydown brush.

B-main
2009.07.12, 08:41 PM
does it take longer to break in Pure Silver Brushes. than the stock ones in a pn 70t useing the water

B-main
2009.07.12, 09:40 PM
and is silver brushes good in a 70t

Felix2010
2009.07.13, 11:47 PM
does it take longer to break in Pure Silver Brushes. than the stock ones in a pn 70t useing the water

Silver brushes should take less time to break-in on a motor. Although I have not tried Pn's "pure-silver" brushes(yet:)), The silver material is usually softer and more malleable than carbon brushes.

and is silver brushes good in a 70t

Yes.:)

Felix2010
2009.07.14, 12:03 AM
that is a very good point. when used for a mini-z, the motor sits in the similar position as it would in a break in stand with the same methods for pinion mesh. how do they differ?

This was in reference to the post by 1FASWGN and his suggestion on why not to use a slave-motor or motor stand to break-in a motor:

I am wondering, if the major point of brush/motor break-in is to get the four-points of the brush contact point worn-into one singular larger contact patch with the commutator, just how important is the brush angle force problem in the grand scheme of things? Also, after 1-3 hours of motor-stand low-voltage break-in(1.2-1.5v), would then putting the newly broken-in motor through a short run under its own power with normal load (again using low voltage 1.2-1.5v) get the brushes properly settled under their own force?

I really like the idea of using a slave motor/motor stand for breaking in a motor's brushes, especially with BB motor cans where water-dipping can pose corrosion problems.

imxlr8ed
2009.07.14, 09:44 AM
I really like the idea of using a slave motor/motor stand for breaking in a motor's brushes, especially with BB motor cans where water-dipping can pose corrosion problems.

If you spray the motor out, and oil the bearings... they will not corrode. The motor spray alone clears out any moisture left in the motor.

chad508
2009.07.14, 10:02 AM
i just got a motor master. i plan on not using a slave motor but instead breaking in under water. my question is what voltages should i be using and what ramp up and down speed.

imxlr8ed
2009.07.14, 02:50 PM
I usually hear around 1 to 2 volts for break-in. A gentle break-in is usually using one AA cell for around 20 minutes. Like I said earlier though... I have no patience so I usually hook it up to 4 AAA cells until I see that the brushes are fully seated. I broke my last motor in with half an Aquafina at the previous race. (Macguyver style ;))

B-main
2009.07.14, 04:15 PM
so ill break in my brushes winder water .how can i break in my bushing

B-main
2009.07.14, 07:29 PM
any one every use brasso on bushings

rocketman
2009.07.15, 02:36 PM
No Brasso for me at this point, although I have in the past. I have found success using a product from Reflex Racing specifically for breaking in bushings and have been very happy with the product and the friction reduction it has produced. You can find it on their web page for all products under Hardware/Miscellaneous. It is also very hard to argue against their products given their results. I am sure you can find similar products and there are some home made formulas that are probably just as good. If you can find a copy of Big Jim's Black book of R/C Motors you can find out how he did it back in the day and he was amongst the best motor tuners ever. RIP

Also as suggested in some other posts, if you are dunking motors spend the extra dollar and get a gallon of distilled water, which has been cleansed of minerals, and use that to dip. Tap water and even some well water has compounds that will foul your comm.

knightrider
2011.01.02, 06:59 PM
I'm just dropping a quick line to say Thanks guys :)

I just broke in my first motor, ran for 17 mins in distilled water, 1AA, motor sprayed, one drop at each end, ran for 2 mins after, seems awesome. one brush made complete contact and the other has about 5% more till complete contact is made (I didnt realize this untill I emptied and washed the tupaware and didn't think re-doing it was necessary). these brushes aren't silver or carbon, they're gold, came with my new PN70T Official Stock. Can't wait for practice tomorrow! :D

lithium
2011.01.21, 10:13 AM
hello , here is my engine after breaking in , atomic T2 /4,8v test muchmore



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBVfNfdAVso

bye ;)

lithium
2011.01.26, 05:09 AM
and my T2+ atomic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5GuezB8Xlk

;)

Tjay
2011.01.26, 11:31 AM
Hi Lithium,

Can you test a broken in (unopened) PN70 motor at 4.8v? I'm just curious to see your results with the break in step that you're using.

Thanks!

Anyone know the average rpm and amp draw for PN70 and CTP70 motors?

JuniorWKR
2011.01.26, 12:30 PM
i dont have any data for you guys at this time but here is my break in process which has never failed me...

always use the pn tray with the slave motor...

i spin the motor in reverse polarity for 30 mins at 2.5 volts

i then spin in foward for an hour... th elast few mins of foward i will add a small amount of voodoo comm drop and bump the volts up to 3.5...

within the first 20mins of foward i use the white bushing break in poilish from reflexracing... after the 20 mins is up i will still allow the motor to run and i wil lspray the heck outta it to clean everything reall good and get all of the reflex product out... after that while still spinning and motor has dried i then add the reflex purple bushing oil... this helsp to keep the bushings cool and smooth during the long run time... then with a few mins left i will spray the motor clean again cleaning off the comm drops and the reflex bushing oil and let it spin till dry and the hour is up... i then install motor in pod.. reapply a small amount of reflex purple bushing oil on each side and im set to go.. .

no i run alot of races a year where the classes are sealed handout motors.. especially all the pn races i attend... this method has never failed me and has always produced a fast motor for me... i believe the trick is the 30 mins in reverse for the first 30 mins... it seems to me that the brushes sit flater when i do it tha way then when just spinning foward they get a slanted wear to them...

lithium
2011.01.26, 02:54 PM
Hi Lithium,

Can you test a broken in (unopened) PN70 motor at 4.8v? I'm just curious to see your results with the break in step that you're using.

Thanks!

Anyone know the average rpm and amp draw for PN70 and CTP70 motors?

hello,
sorry we not use this engine in France there are really too slow,
we use a lot of tire rubber white stock engine ,
and more powerful as t2 or chili with tire faom gqtire grp matrix and treatment cs or fish , tc4 ect , bye ;)

mdowney
2011.01.26, 03:38 PM
My motor break-in solution is incredibly complex. I send it to Cristian at RR and pay him $15 to do it. :D

rock hard
2011.09.28, 02:45 AM
Its funny,guys everywhere wil always argue on how to breakin a motor.

This is what I have learned.

water sux,if your the kinda guy who ISNT going to open and clean the motor after break in,and are just gonna throw away and not rebuild yuor motors.
then maybe,but if your one of those guys,your probably not gonna break it in anyhow.

I "seat" my brushes dry,I suggest most people use vehicle as my motor stand (just dont mount the pinion) But I use a drill,I chuck the shaft into my drill
and spin it slow till brushes are seated,I spin approx 50% one direction and 50% the other.

Its my opinion that heat kills,break in a motor to fast,and the brushes can actually glazz.

I use a drill,cuz the speed is easier controled than by straight voltage that drops.
I will clean my motor after break in.

I ALWAYS clean my motor with soap and water,NEVER a motor spray.

Also I use a fiberglass pen to keep comm shined,this does not replace com cuts,but is handy tool for keeping her clean.

straight silver brushes=more power AND more commwear
the carbon in newer brushes act as a lubricant,the brush will wear faster,comm will wear less,however,the carbon brushes tend to gum up on the comm IMO

simply put,a properly seated brush means more contact surface between brush and comm= more power to the comm.
Do you have to do it,no it will do it during regulare use,but it is better for the comm and brush to break in "cool" and "clean"

laydown,less time till brush hits next segment of the comm,as it spans a larger surface of the comm.
laydown will spool up faster,produce more power,and wear faster.

standup brush has less surface are contact with the comm,even when seated.
standup will have more time on each segment before it begins to overlap the next segment. IMO standup is best all around,as the brush will wear slower,and the motor will run cooler

But for me personally,laydown is king

I'm about to be seeing what these little brushed motors are about though.,hell I just thought 280 was small

twinkie
2011.09.28, 02:52 PM
laydown,less time till brush hits next segment of the comm,as it spans a larger surface of the comm.
laydown will spool up faster,produce more power,and wear faster.

standup brush has less surface are contact with the comm,even when seated.
standup will have more time on each segment before it begins to overlap the next segment. IMO standup is best all around,as the brush will wear slower,and the motor will run cooler

But for me personally,laydown is king

I'm about to be seeing what these little brushed motors are about though.,hell I just thought 280 was small


what do you mean by "lay down" and "stand up"... do you bend the brushes to change contact point????????

rock hard
2011.09.28, 03:03 PM
what do you mean by "lay down" and "stand up"... do you bend the brushes to change contact point????????

Ok,1st off I know KNOTHING about these motrs you guys use,though I'm about to take a crash course:D

I am very familuar with brushed motors in general.

A brush (or most) are not square,the are longer on one side than the other.

what determins if its going to standup or laydown is the design of the brush hood.

I have learned everthing I know from 3 threads,and then aplied that learning to
my hobby.

I will post links to these very useful threads if mods dont mid a link to another site?

Thread links will be up shortly,warning though,expect sevral hrs/days of reading to absorb everything.

I have never been able to read the "black book" but would love have one

rock hard
2011.09.28, 03:10 PM
want to learn more about brushed motors?
My suggested reads are these threads below


http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showthread.php?p=919711#post919711**

http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1663074#post1663074z


http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125790


This one has alot of questions/b.s. in it,but a very,very good read.
http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showthread.php?t=223989

and this is what you want to read if you plan to attempt a hand wind
http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3160


John Holmes detailed threads are what got me 1st interested,he and Eddie from team
brood have alowed us to absorb alot of info they didint have to share.

twinkie
2011.09.28, 07:02 PM
why do you not use motorspray?

rock hard
2011.09.28, 08:41 PM
why do you not use motorspray?

Its like the difference between washing your car at the ar wash with a wand,and washing it at home with a bucket and sponge.

sure,it looks clean,but hit it with a sponge after,and you see just how dirty it still is.

Open it,warm water and drop of dish soap,soft toothbrush....that clean.

If you buy a used motor and its got ALOT of gunk built up.I could see the use of a motor spray just to break it down.But still wash with sooap and water after.

Most guys who use motor spray (from my experience)
Just spray the motor,and never open it up.....where does the dirt/grim go?
some of it is still in the motor....you have to open it up to really clean it.

soap and water is the best way to clean a motor IMO

EMU
2011.09.29, 12:50 PM
At a lot of races, you do not have the time to open the motor to clean it. Also, the tabs that hold the motor closed are rather weak... so it is not recommended to open the motor often. After about 3-4 times, they typically break off.

Removing the brushes alone will give you enough room to work with to clean the comm sufficiently without jeapordizing the integrity of the can...

I do agree with what you are stating about thoroughly cleaning the comm. Between races, motor spray should be sufficient, but to really get it clean... you have to put in a little elbow grease.

rock hard
2011.09.29, 12:57 PM
At a lot of races, you do not have the time to open the motor to clean it. Also, the tabs that hold the motor closed are rather weak... so it is not recommended to open the motor often. After about 3-4 times, they typically break off.

Removing the brushes alone will give you enough room to work with to clean the comm sufficiently without jeapordizing the integrity of the can...

I do agree with what you are stating about thoroughly cleaning the comm. Between races, motor spray should be sufficient, but to really get it clean... you have to put in a little elbow grease.

didn't know about the tabs,motors I have dealt with are easy to remove the end bell.
Like I said,I'm about to get a crash course,I will be opening up my 1st 130 sized motor next week I hope.

twinkie
2011.09.29, 01:07 PM
i could see taking off the brush to clean the com for club races... but, would this be looked down upon doing it during a PN race, say with the hand-out 80t?

EMU
2011.09.29, 01:27 PM
You are not allowed to remove brushes on handout motor classes, but you can on mod classes.

Modified Class can be use any model of the PN Racing motor, legal modify the brushes, magnet, cut the cam head, but you MUST be use PN Racing motor can, motor cover and armature. If any PN Race official suspects motor illegal tampering, the driver will be subject to disqualification.

twinkie
2011.09.29, 02:43 PM
ok... here's a dumb random thought question...

For those who like to break in their motors by running them under water... would it be more beneficial to run them in some soapy water... and have the water temperature be warm - hot?

rock hard
2011.09.29, 06:23 PM
ok... here's a dumb random thought question...

For those who like to break in their motors by running them under water... would it be more beneficial to run them in some soapy water... and have the water temperature be warm - hot?

ok,i can see the reasoning for breaking in under water if you cant open the motor.Or your limited on time.

I'm imagining I'm at a race with a handout motor.....I have very little time to break it in,and cant open it up....water is your best bet in that situation.

The water will keep your comm cool during a fast break in,it will push alot of the grim out of the motor,so its cleaner after breakin....and yur gonna trash it after the race anyhow:D

rock hard
2011.09.29, 06:26 PM
You are not allowed to remove brushes on handout motor classes, but you can on mod classes.

so,is inspecting the brushes allowed?
is cleaning the motor allowed?

I would think removing a brush means its no longer conected to the endbell.
you can pul it out with out removing it....

though I'll not be racing at any sactioned event,I wouldnt consider pulling the brush out,as removing from the motor,as its still attched via the shunt.

blt456
2011.09.29, 07:51 PM
I ALWAYS clean my motor with soap and water,NEVER a motor spray.

I don't think soap and water will cut it for mini-z motors. I don't know what type of motors you work on, but I don't know of anyone who does what you do. Motor spray gets rid of oils and grease. When you spray the motor, you can see the black tire dust come out.

I break in my handout motors in water and this method seems to work best out of all of the ones I've tried.

Motor spray will clean an entire motor except for the comm. It will partially remove the buildup, but to get rid of the rest, I take a strip of 2000 grit sandpaper and touch it to the comm while the motor is running. This will get rid of the carbon/silver buildup (if you're using PN motors) and make the comm shiny.

Also, no need to open up a motor to clean it. Most new motors (ATM and PN) have the same endbell design as the tamiya plasmadash, so the brushes are attached on the sides.

rock hard
2011.09.29, 08:22 PM
I don't think soap and water will cut it for mini-z motors. I don't know what type of motors you work on, but I don't know of anyone who does what you do. Motor spray gets rid of oils and grease. When you spray the motor, you can see the black tire dust come out.

I break in my handout motors in water and this method seems to work best out of all of the ones I've tried.

Motor spray will clean an entire motor except for the comm. It will partially remove the buildup, but to get rid of the rest, I take a strip of 2000 grit sandpaper and touch it to the comm while the motor is running. This will get rid of the carbon/silver buildup (if you're using PN motors) and make the comm shiny.

Also, no need to open up a motor to clean it. Most new motors (ATM and PN) have the same endbell design as the tamiya plasmadash, so the brushes are attached on the sides.

so you dont "think" soap will work
trust me,it works..if your gonna hit the comm with sandpaper (no sandpapper for me though) then you have to open the motor anyhow.

I have had some pretty bad motors I bought used,dawn and a toothbrush works like a champ.and it cleans the comm too!
so do you check your segments after you clean????

blt456
2011.09.29, 08:48 PM
so you dont "think" soap will work
trust me,it works..if your gonna hit the comm with sandpaper (no sandpapper for me though) then you have to open the motor anyhow.


I personally won't be trying that method anytime soon. If it works good for you, then that's great. I'll stick to my motor spray. Do you use any other fluids to get the water out of the motor or do you just let it dry?

You do not have to open *most* motors up to clean the comm. You don't even have to remove the brushes. I go full throttle with the motor in the car and touch the sandpaper to the comm. All of the new PN Racing motors and even the Atomic motors all have endbells with vents.

Most motors you buy for mini-z nowadays have endbells with vents, allowing users to stick the sandpaper strip through the top of the motor or through the bottom. This method works great for stock class handout motors. I do this at every event I race at now and the method has proven to work. I know some other people who do this too and we feel it is a good way to get the brush buildup off the comm.

rock hard
2011.09.29, 08:58 PM
I personally won't be trying that method anytime soon. If it works good for you, then that's great. I'll stick to my motor spray. Do you use any other fluids to get the water out of the motor or do you just let it dry?

You do not have to open *most* motors up to clean the comm. You don't even have to remove the brushes. I go full throttle with the motor in the car and touch the sandpaper to the comm. All of the new PN Racing motors and even the Atomic motors all have endbells with vents.

Most motors you buy for mini-z nowadays have endbells with vents, allowing users to stick the sandpaper strip through the top of the motor or through the bottom. This method works great for stock class handout motors. I do this at every event I race at now and the method has proven to work. I know some other people who do this too and we feel it is a good way to get the brush buildup off the comm.

yeah,ti the 540 kr's had a vent,but I dont use any papper,I think I mentioned above already...a betetr choice IMO is to use a fiberglass pen found at any radioshack. works like a champ,and use it to touch up brushes too.

Only I dont use the vent,I open the can,yank the arm,chuck it in a drill and spin away.

Doent matter if its a fiberglass pen or sandpapper....it wears as it cleans,and the particals are now inside the endbell with the comm/brushess.

opening the motor is the best way...oh,hair drier to dry the motor;)