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View Full Version : Any noticable speed difference with the ASF vs AM chassis?


MillerTime
2009.04.17, 11:42 PM
Some of my friends are looking at getting Mini-Z setups for friendly racing. I'm looking at the ASF chassis setup as I have the transmitter from the dNaNo already. I think most of the others will be running the AM MR02 systems.

We're looking to have them box stock for awhile at least to keep the competition even and the buy in lower. I noticed the ASF has higher capactiy FETs - would that make it faster with the stock motor or is that mainly to allow hotter mod motors to be installed?

I know about the faster radio response time and potentially better handling from the new layout, but I was looking purely at the straight out speed capabilities.

color01
2009.04.17, 11:59 PM
In general, the top speed is limited by the motors... but the ASF board should get you there faster vs. a stock AM board. Not much more I can add to that, I haven't driven an AM Mini-Z in ages... :D

Skv012a
2009.04.18, 12:12 AM
2.4 is firstly steering response speed. Then its a stock stacked FETs that will let you run virtually any motor on the market. That said, its worth it just for the FET fact alone.

cowboysir
2009.04.18, 12:22 AM
A stock ASF board that has a 2x2 stack of 3010 will allow more current flow from the batteries to the motor versus an AM board with a single 3010 fet lineup.

More current to the motor means more speed.

MillerTime
2009.04.18, 09:01 AM
Thanks for the replies. I guess what I was really getting at is considering the stock motor - does the FET setup on the AM chassis allow full current to flow or is it a bottleneck?

So if you were to straight line drag race an AM MR02 against an ASF, both stock from the box, is there any noticible difference?

Like I said we're looking to have something of a spec class for friendly racing, and I don't want to get something that is going to be an advantage in straight line speed.

Thanks!

Skv012a
2009.04.18, 09:40 AM
keep in mind that too many fets will make your throttle control worse. Its about getting the minimum you need really.

cowboysir
2009.04.18, 10:33 AM
Thanks for the replies. I guess what I was really getting at is considering the stock motor - does the FET setup on the AM chassis allow full current to flow or is it a bottleneck?

So if you were to straight line drag race an AM MR02 against an ASF, both stock from the box, is there any noticible difference?

Like I said we're looking to have something of a spec class for friendly racing, and I don't want to get something that is going to be an advantage in straight line speed.

Thanks!

There is a slight difference in top end and a noticable difference in take off from a stand still.

mleemor60
2009.04.18, 10:46 AM
Some of my friends are looking at getting Mini-Z setups for friendly racing. I'm looking at the ASF chassis setup as I have the transmitter from the dNaNo already. I think most of the others will be running the AM MR02 systems.

We're looking to have them box stock for awhile at least to keep the competition even and the buy in lower. I noticed the ASF has higher capactiy FETs - would that make it faster with the stock motor or is that mainly to allow hotter mod motors to be installed?

I know about the faster radio response time and potentially better handling from the new layout, but I was looking purely at the straight out speed capabilities.

If you limit the 2.4 car to a PN70T motor and the AM cars to say an X-speed motor then the cars should be nearly equal in performance. If the 70T car is still faster then step the AM cars up to a Speedy07 motor. Then the AM cars will have a slight power advantage but the 2.4 car will have the better handling advantage due to the precision electronics.

MillerTime
2009.04.18, 12:00 PM
If you limit the 2.4 car to a PN70T motor and the AM cars to say an X-speed motor then the cars should be nearly equal in performance. If the 70T car is still faster then step the AM cars up to a Speedy07 motor. Then the AM cars will have a slight power advantage but the 2.4 car will have the better handling advantage due to the precision electronics.

Thanks :) What gearing is a good starting point for a track like HS Hobbies has?

mleemor60
2009.04.18, 08:50 PM
With the stock motor pod the best you will be able to do is a 9/44 or is it 45. The 70T motor seems to be happiest at about 4.40:1 . That equates to a 10 tooth with a 44spur or a 12 tooth with a 53 spur if you are using the 64 pitch gears. Either set up will get you more speed than you need at HSH in the current configuration. The big problem with either combination is getting it to work with the motor adjusting methods of the stock pod. With the after market pods the sky's the limit. You just have to decide what wheelbase spread you want to work within. PN makes and HSH stocks both the PN LCGV4 unit that adjusts from 98 to 102MM which will encompass all of the mid motor bodies plus the latest LM bodies such as all the different Porsche 962 versions and the different Mazda 787B models. Also with this mount you will find several other suspension adjustment options that can be done. The PN LCG 94-98 mm mount will cover all the 98mm bodies as well as all of the popular 94mm rear motor bodies that can be used in mid motor configuration with that particular mount There are options available for this unit also but some of the things haven't been fully developed yet.

From a standpoint of modifications I would start first with a set of bearings. Then motor then pod and ball differential either together or in any order. I omitted tires because they are a given. As far as the dif is concerned there are a bunch of different ones available for a wide variety of prices. HSH stocks both the Kyosho and the PN ceramic unit. The PN unit is a very good piece and can be configured with either 48 or 64 pitch gears with just a spur change. The Kyosho is probably the Cadillac of ball dif's and is priced accordingly. The down side is the minor modifications that must be done to use 64P gears and I don't think you can go back to 48P after the modifications are completed unless you use PN parts. Another plus for the PN unit is D ring pressure plates as opposed to standard round holed plates on the K unit. The actual material quality for the pressure plates goes to Kyosho even with the inferior plate design. Some people have had QC issues with the PN plates but have had no problems with customer service when problems have arisen. All of the after market parts are pretty good. It becomes a matter of preference. Some like strawberry some like vanilla. If you will be spending time with the HSH group you will find all the information you need freely given with a willingness to keep you headed in the right direction. If we can keep you on the track you are more apt to keep coming without disappointment. You will also find this forum to be a fantastic reference for all you will ever want or need to know and then some. At this scale we are a lot less secretive than some of the bigger scales.

Traveler
2009.04.19, 07:50 AM
MillerTime, I was guessing you were one of the guys we met on Thursday. Welcome to the forums. I'm the guy who's Porsche LM you and your friends tried for a few laps. Or are you the guy that wasn't there in the afternoon?

I realize you are considering ASF because you already have the controller. And ASF is clearly better than AM. As for price, the ASF without the controller is about the same price as AM with a controller. So if you want to be trully evenly matched, you and the others should go box stock AM.

Hope this helps!

hrdrvr
2009.04.19, 11:26 AM
^ I dont agree with going box stock AM just for the competition of it. If youve got the controller allready, and are willing to go ASF, you should. If your friends end up serious about it at all, they will end up upgrading too. Going AM is just selling yourself short, and you probably wont enjoy the hobby as much as you could with ASF. If youve allready got a few folks to run with, you will eventually upgrade your cars :D Its just a fact about miniZs, lol.

If you feel youve got an unfair advantage, just gear your car down. If you are running 6/44 (how it comes out of the box) and the other guys are running 8/44 or 9/44 (both available with stock parts that come with RTRs), you wont have an avantage at all, and depending the layout, you could have a strong disadvantage.

If any of your friends would go ahead and take the jump to ASF, it would be well worth it for them too. Its not that much more if you buy into one of the ARR LeMans kits. You can usually find the KT-18 radios for about $40 used, and that ends up being the price difference. For $40, its well worth stepping up, and the investment will net you better resale value, as well as a more enjoyable experience racing these cars. Also, the LM platform is the best MR02 configuration for running miniZ out of the box. If you end up with conventional RM or MM configs, the cars wont be nearly as handle friendly as the LMs until you start upgrading to disc dampers (which the LM allready has), and what not.

Good luck with whatever you do!

herman
2009.04.20, 01:41 AM
welcome to the forums millertime...

all are good points were raised here... i've been in the hobby for quite some time...

take note that there are two versions of the am chassis:
the first one came out with a pair of 3004 fets, while the second one came out with a pair of 3010 fets...

the 3010 does feel a bit faster than the older 3004 fets as kyosho claims...

however the asf just blows the old boards away... faster steering response, and faster in general... due to 2 pairs of 3010 fets...

i felt that coming out of the box, the asf is quite quick even with the 6t pinion...
i feel it is the equivalent to the second am version with a 9t pinion... (but that's just my opinion)...

hope this helps... and happy shopping...

Traveler
2009.04.20, 07:25 AM
^ I dont agree with going box stock AM just for the competition of it. If youve got the controller allready, and are willing to go ASF, you should. If your friends end up serious about it at all, they will end up upgrading too. Going AM is just selling yourself short, and you probably wont enjoy the hobby as much as you could with ASF. If youve allready got a few folks to run with, you will eventually upgrade your cars :D Its just a fact about miniZs, lol.

If you feel youve got an unfair advantage, just gear your car down. If you are running 6/44 (how it comes out of the box) and the other guys are running 8/44 or 9/44 (both available with stock parts that come with RTRs), you wont have an avantage at all, and depending the layout, you could have a strong disadvantage.

If any of your friends would go ahead and take the jump to ASF, it would be well worth it for them too. Its not that much more if you buy into one of the ARR LeMans kits. You can usually find the KT-18 radios for about $40 used, and that ends up being the price difference. For $40, its well worth stepping up, and the investment will net you better resale value, as well as a more enjoyable experience racing these cars. Also, the LM platform is the best MR02 configuration for running miniZ out of the box. If you end up with conventional RM or MM configs, the cars wont be nearly as handle friendly as the LMs until you start upgrading to disc dampers (which the LM allready has), and what not.

Good luck with whatever you do!

Landon,

I'm not suggesting box stock for the competetion of it. I think MillerTime and everyone else has said ASF is superior and I agree with everything you have said. But the question is would MT have an unfair adantage running an ASF against AM cars. The answer is clearly yes. Even if he were to gear it differently or use a different motor as Mike suggested. There is also the PERCEPTION of an unfair advantage. Even if MT got his ASF on par with the AM cars, every time he wins his buds might "feel" he had an advantage even if he just out drove them.

In short, ASF is the way to go, but there is no way to avoid the perception of an unfair advantage against AM cars.

Best of luck MT

hrdrvr
2009.04.20, 08:19 AM
^ I just re-read what you said, I think I percieved it a little off the first time :D

What you elaborate on is a great point. Weve got guys around here that are always thinking they are at a disadvantage. At some point those guys will step up, or give up, and we dont want them to give up.

All I say is, instead of MT moving down to the AM, get the guys to bite the bullet (the proverbial $40 bullet), and step up to 2.4. Every one will be happier in the end!

Traveler
2009.04.20, 06:00 PM
I perceive your perception to be more precise :)

I encouraged the guys when I met them at HSH to go ASF for a small additional investment upfront, as opposed to a larger investment later to upgrade, but they seemed set on getting in at the lowest cost. I think they are into bigger toys and are interested in Mini-Zs for a quick fix and to keep their skills sharp. One of the guys that test drove my LM car drives a lot better than me.

Hope to see you in MB at some point.

imxlr8ed
2009.04.20, 11:47 PM
2.4 is the way to go... I wish I was just starting out so I could get all 2.4s. I don't mind my AMs too much, but when every turn counts that wayward AM glitch becomes a major irritant. Only thing I prefer about the AM boards is that they are much easier to do full fet jobs (turbo) as opposed to layering. But the latering of turbo type fets on top of the 3010s on the 2.4 doesn't seem to cause any issues for anyone I know of so far.

MillerTime
2009.04.21, 09:18 AM
Thanks to all of you, there is some great info here. And yeah I was one of the guys that came out last week, I was the one that brought the dNaNo. I was hoping to talk the guys into going that route for the small size track options, but they are doing Mini-Zs. Two of them went ahead and bought AM models although I suggested we all decide what to do before we buy anything. Ah well, to each their own ;)

I have put in an order for a 2.4 set, I could feel the amazing steering response time on the dNaNo and I'm sure I don't want to give that up. I'll get the PN 70t stock motor so I can try to run with the stock class at HSH too.

One last question, because now I'm confused on upgrade parts for the LM models. Does anyone know a manufacturer and part # for an aluminum knuckle for the LM? As I understand it's one of the parts that is not compatible between the LM and other MR02 chassis sets. I've heard PN makes one but I can't find a part # or retailer for it.

Thanks again!

hrdrvr
2009.04.21, 09:21 AM
You can use the standard knuckles on your LM. It changes the ride height by 1mm or so. If you end up running low down springs, there is enough play that you can adjust the ride height to whatever youd like.

mleemor60
2009.04.21, 09:48 AM
Thanks to all of you, there is some great info here. And yeah I was one of the guys that came out last week, I was the one that brought the dNaNo. I was hoping to talk the guys into going that route for the small size track options, but they are doing Mini-Zs. Two of them went ahead and bought AM models although I suggested we all decide what to do before we buy anything. Ah well, to each their own ;)

I have put in an order for a 2.4 set, I could feel the amazing steering response time on the dNaNo and I'm sure I don't want to give that up. I'll get the PN 70t stock motor so I can try to run with the stock class at HSH too.

One last question, because now I'm confused on upgrade parts for the LM models. Does anyone know a manufacturer and part # for an aluminum knuckle for the LM? As I understand it's one of the parts that is not compatible between the LM and other MR02 chassis sets. I've heard PN makes one but I can't find a part # or retailer for it.

Thanks again!

If you show up on Thursday night I will be more than happy to go over 2.4LM accessories and conversions as I have done a fair amount of work with them especially in the area of body re-enforcement. You will find HSH more than willing to see to your needs at prices lower than anyone else that I know of.

hrdrvr
2009.04.21, 10:41 AM
Hope to see you in MB at some point.

You should try and make it down for the PNWC race next month. There will be folks from PA to GA attending, so it would be a good chance for you meet a lot of priers in the Z community.

Miller Time, you and your buds should come down and check it out too! Itll be a nice weekend, and the PN rules work out well for AM or ASF cars. Weve got a lot of 1/8th scale buggy racers that run all over the place, so y'all will likely see some one you know!

MillerTime
2009.04.21, 11:02 AM
We'll definitely try to make that one! What date is it?

hrdrvr
2009.04.21, 12:35 PM
The date is MAy 23rd and 24th. Itll be a 2 day event, but well worth the trip IMO. You can check out the details (rules, location, etc..) in the event thread (http://minizracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31245).

pedrocamp
2009.04.21, 03:30 PM
Hope you guys can join us soon for some racing at High Speed. All you guys seemed like good drivers, but after a few weeks at HS and you be will hacking with the best of em.
HRDVR is right, you guys should head down to Myrtle for the PN Race. Two great facilities, awsome competition and really nice people. PN puts on a well organized event, and better yet in Myrtle I bet.
I still hope the dNaNo thing takes off, I could fit a track in my tiny garage and a HT is a mile from my house but my favorite scale is still Mini Z.

MillerTime
2009.04.27, 12:36 AM
If you show up on Thursday night I will be more than happy to go over 2.4LM accessories and conversions as I have done a fair amount of work with them especially in the area of body re-enforcement. You will find HSH more than willing to see to your needs at prices lower than anyone else that I know of.

I plan to come out this Thursday to get some parts and maybe try to get my 2.4 dialed in a bit before racing starts. If I can get enough practice in I'll be up for some racing too.

Thanks for the assistance!