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View Full Version : Sigh, going 02 now.


Skv012a
2009.05.10, 12:57 AM
I feel utterly defeated w/ my 15 simply due to this chassis inability to squeeze 100% at all times. Corners must be slower and more gentle to keep it from rolling and no matter how much weight advantage I have, its just not enough.

That said, I have no choice now but to ditch my fave bodies for a better chassis. I've fit 86 on it so far, shaved the very bottom areas of battery trays (weight redux and venting) and otherwise outfitted it w/ all my 15 goodies.

Has anyone tried to make custom metal battery clips to shave those 4mm they add to the width?

EMU
2009.05.10, 03:18 AM
My 70t 015 pulls the same laptimes as my 70t 02 pan car with PN A-Arm front end... The 015 is not a slow chassis... With the right bodies and setup, it is just as good if not better than an MR02. Try the Ferrari f355 shaved out to 94mm... Very aggressive, and lots of corner speed.

There is a new part on the market for the 015, although it is not available at a web distributor yet... a tower bar for the 015 that is MR02 width. Reflex Racing should be carrying it soon, shoot them an email if you are interested in it.

I won the race tonight with my 015 with the tower bar installed. I pulled a 9.58s lap with the car. GTR with 1N/2W. Speedy 07BB vII, PN FMV3 mount, ML DDS, ATM top shock with PN green DDS spring, front PN Purple springs... K20 radial rear, ATM 40 slick-r. The next fastest lap in that race was a 9.92s lap. Everyone else had MR02s. I would try this before switching to an MR02. You get all of the benefits of the 015 (centralised chassis mass), with the same geometry as the MR02. On high grip tracks, there is not much advantage, almost a disadvantage with the higher CG. On low grip tracks, I prefer the 015 much more than the MR02.

I almost made the A main at the KO race with an MR015 (without the towers). I was very close to the A main leaders pace, but made a mistake on the straight and lost a few seconds towards the end of the 3rd qualifier. In the B main, I traction rolled once (only roll of the weekend) while I was leading, and finished 2nd behind my teammate Willy Wong.

On a small track, I will almost allways choose an MR015 over an MR02, since the car transitions much faster. On large tracks, it really depends on the layout and grip.

Skv012a
2009.05.10, 03:46 AM
See, the whole point for me to use 15 are the narrow narrow bodies and thus stances. If I wanted to widen the stance and thus use a wider(longer doesn't really matter to me as much) body, I would've just went w/ 02 in the first place for the superb CG.

When I HAVE to corner 20-50% throttle to just stay on the track and 02s blast 70-100%, no matter how deep my tuning is it becomes useless. If I were to add some belly weight, it might not even help as much because battery weight is VERY hard to cancel out.

Ultimately, I'd just get another 2.4 15 to keep it 15 and use it for fun, but there's no way I can compete w/ my #1 bodies of choice. Im glad that in these 2 some months I managed to squeeze everything outta my 15 and learn just about everything there is to know about it.

So MR15, when built and tuned to keep its essence- narrow width, simply cannot break past speedy 07 or even stock motor if pushed to its limits. And again, I don't consider 02 bodies w/ 15 chassis a 15 car because it just becomes a slightly worse 02.

color01
2009.05.10, 05:27 AM
The strategy for tuning an 015 is a completely different ballgame than tuning an "un-hindered" (read: MR02) chassis -- in fact it's more like the MA010. Harder front tires are almost a necessity, and you'll be drifting the car a bit more around the track. Eugene's 015 runs (by my standards) ridiculously hard tires. Although he purposely lowers the car's limits, he also makes it much more forgiving than most of our "normal" race cars, so he can drive consistently fast lines over and over again. As long as track grip is low and you keep the car's weight transfer in check, you can compete.

It's also hard to win when you stick to too many principles... one of the few things that Initial D teaches correctly, having too many principles will limit your performance and growth. Takumi learns eventually that passing people on the straight is A-OK for winning; similarly, putting down your AE86 shell for an F40 or F355 is not denying the identity of your MR015, but rather giving it the tools it needs to overcome the CG advantages of the MR02.

Skv012a
2009.05.10, 05:43 AM
Well like I said, using narrow bodies was what kept me with 15 over 02 so switching to wider bodies might as well = switching over to 02 altogether.

I'll take your advise with my own grain of salt- I'll stick to whatever 15 bodies will squeeze onto 02 and use the 02 chassis as the growth of my 15's spirit. You're right about bodies making the chassis in this hobby rather than vice versa, so I'll try to persevere while sticking to my ideal until they absolutely fail me.

EMU
2009.05.10, 05:55 AM
Well put Brian ;)

My cars are allways easy to drive, and have lots of corner speed. I dont drift all the time, only when hotlapping or when I have to push for the position. I want my cars to perform well with minimal effort. I also prefer harder tires since they tend to run more consistant throughout the run. I dont want the car to push hard, I want a feeling that it is almost pushing, and I can control the cars turn radius with throttle.

ATM 40d front/8d radial rear is not rediculously hard. I have more steering on the ATM 40d front tire than the 8d PN slicks (which to me have more grip than the PN 6d slicks). More than Kyosho 30d... If the 40d slicks dont have enough grip, then the AW40d grooved work well. These are front tires that I use almost exclusively... The lower rated ATM tires work better on carpet, they are pretty gummy. The higher rated ATM tires work better on RCP.

My rear tire of choice now on my non 70t cars is the Kyosho 20d radial... On the 70t is the 20d radial once it is slick. I find that it works very consistant, and does not fade like the ATM or PN tires do once they wear slick. I didnt start using them much until there was a shortage of the ATM 8d... I like new 8d's ATMs and old 20d's Kyoshos...

Too much grip in the rear, means you need more grip in the front to compensate. Use as much grip as you need in the rear, and balance in the front. You will find that especially for stock classes, you dont need as soft tires as you think you do.

Brian is right on the fact that I run tight lines, consistantly. Tight lines mean more than speed. What good is speed if you are not going in the right direction. You want to maintain momentum through the shortest distance of the track. If you have to slow down to change direction faster then accelerate out, it can and will usually result in better lap time, tire wear, grip and keep you out of trouble. Driving smooth, and not on the edge of the limit to keep a good pace will make it easier to focus on traffic. I watched a lot of 1/10 scale videos from RedRC (youtube), and they really helped me adjust my lines.

The F355 is an 015 body, 0N/0W. ATM 8d radial rear, AW 40 front. Shaved out to 94mm with MM mount, or possibly 90mm MM mount (just got one to play with).

This is my favorite car, I feel most natural driving it, and would race it on any track against just about any 70t car. Probably even speedy 07 (which would feel like running a modified motor). I already outrun many speedy 07 cars with the 70t motor installed. My laptimes were faster today in the 015 70t class than most 'stock fet motor' class MR02s.

The tower bars were just to even the playing field while centralizing the mass. Low CG bodies dont work as well on MR02s, there is less weight transfer. They feel like they are pushing all the time. With the MR015, there is more steering response...

Have you tried the AW40d front tires? Or 40d slicks if those are too much? Try using less grip rear tires to balance the fronts. ATM 8d work very well, as do Kyosho 20d slicks or Reflex SSG. Kyosho 20d radials are too much grip when new, but after they wear to slicks, I like them.

I am an MR015 fanboy, so I am a little biased... A lot of the fast racers at my track like them for the same reasons that I do. Lots of rotation, and fast transitions. The higher CG with a low CG body works very well. The low CG bodies on MR02s make the car run too flat, which has less dig through the corner. My MR015 setups on MR02s have much less rotation, so you have to use softer tires in the front, which become less consistant over longer races as the tire heats up. You never know if you are racing against an MR02 or an MR015...

If you are set on the MR02, go for it... It is a good chassis, there is a reason why the MR02 is the primary choice for many racers. Although, dont think that the MR015 is slow. With the right setups, you never have to worry about flipping the car. The KPG is one of the worst bodies that I have ever used... No matter what I did, it allways flipped.

I can list a few good bodies to try if you want. The F355 is the best, hands down. The new GTR street version is pretty good as well... 350Z is also up there... I want to try the Audi TT with the 90mm MM mount. I need to find one

soulstice
2009.05.10, 07:49 AM
If the body is the most important thing to you, you could always run an 02 chassis with the narrow tower bars in front and negative offset in the rear. I don't know off the top of my head if the dimensions work but I used to have a car like this and it performed great.

arch2b
2009.05.10, 11:24 AM
what is being missed to a certain extent is igor has his over riding priority on using particular bodies vs. chassis. chassis choice is a matter of preference, skill level, and setup choices. he has a thing for narrow track width, short wheelbase car bodies. be that as it may, the question then becomes what is the best platform to fit this requirement and his skill level.

granted, it's not the most practial racing method to start with but it's a personal choice he has made and the conditions within which he has to make decisions.

personally, i don't see it mattering too much what you put under the kpg without putting the track time in on learning the subtle differences in line choice and throttle control. we all saw igor really begin to focus on this aspect this weekend in his driving. if it takes a while of just taking it slow to get around without flipping and wrecking, that i feel is more important than getting into the subtle differences in chassis performance. of course, i'm not in the same league as emu, color0 or soulstice in terms of consistent racing.

arch2b
2009.05.10, 11:25 AM
If the body is the most important thing to you, you could always run an 02 chassis with the narrow tower bars in front and negative offset in the rear. I don't know off the top of my head if the dimensions work but I used to have a car like this and it performed great.

ill the kpg even fit on an mr-02? that is a VERY narrow body.

imxlr8ed
2009.05.10, 11:49 AM
I remember holding out on the old MR01 chassis when the MR02 came about and eventually it felt like a big waste of time once I switched over. I guarantee if he had a decently prepared MR02 in his stable, he wouldn't even think of racing his 015s in time.

But, I would say the fastest 015s I've seen were up at Action and I can say that they seem to handle just as well as the MR02s, but those were some top-notch drivers piloting them too. My Viper gets around really well, but I wouldn't put in an 02 race just because of the CG differences. Getting tapped in a turn is a bit more to handle with the 015s. And like EMU says... if you want a car that's aggressive going into the turns, the 015 is the way to go.

As long as you're having fun, that's all that matters... to me, winning is only fun if you had a good time getting there. :)

arch2b
2009.05.10, 11:55 AM
...winning is only fun if you had a good time getting there. :)

and this is what i believe the motto of our club to be and what we should keep in mind at all times :)

TheRinger
2009.05.10, 12:23 PM
I agree arch thats what its all about.

Skv012a
2009.05.10, 01:32 PM
Thanks guys, really appreciate all of the input.

I guess I'd want to ask another question: do our world champs simply prefer 02s due to their driving style or am I right about 15's capabilities topping out way before those of the 02?

I noticed that say, Testarossa on my 15 understeered and felt like your average 02 in terms of handing. Didn't really flip much, etc. Then my 86 or KPG were very nimble indeed due to lower total weight and then narrow + short stances.

I think what I'll really do is try an 02 with the setup to mimic a 15 and if it doesn't deliver, I'll switch back. I also don't doubt that I need to revisit all of the fine tuning since I was focusing more on the motor mount, bodies, and diff as of late.

color01
2009.05.10, 05:10 PM
The 02 is by far easier to setup because of the lower CG, which means you can play with more settings before the car starts to traction roll (believe me, 02's traction roll too). You have a wider envelope to play with, at the expense of steering feel, if you're picky about it like Eugene is.

Getting the same kind of initial steering response as an 015, out of an 02, is probably just as difficult as getting the 015 not to traction roll, because you're trying to compensate for the disadvantages of the respective chassis: 015 has high CG, 02 has poorer mass centralization.

If you realllllly want to stick to a particular bodyshell, you'll have to do a lot of work to make it perform. For example, I'm a McLaren F1 GTR fanboy... the body is low, wide, has a strong nose and an excellent shape for aero -- except it's bloody 44g. To make it perform, you cut out the hidden window glass and the plastic under the roof scoop, cut all the rear vents, take out the rear wing, and you might even take out the headlight buckets and just black out the lenses.... then you're down to 32g, a great weight, and now coupled with the size and shape of the F1 GTR you have an excellent racing body.

Apply this to the KPG, if you want to try competing with it. Cut out all of the hidden window glass, take out the front headlights and oil cooler, replace the stock plastic spoiler with a thin Lexan one, and run the widest offsets that possibly fit underneath that body. I think that would be somewhere around 1.5N/0W, which means, you can go buy yourself a pair of the 02-offset tower bars soon to be available, and use -1N rims in the front. If you want steering feel that would definitely do the trick. ;)

Skv012a
2009.05.10, 06:42 PM
Since Ringer is pickin up my 575 I went ahead and ordered the 02 front conversion kit to try squeezing 15 bodies easier.

All in all I'll just explore what 02 has to offer become I really commit to one chassis or the other. If I like 02 enough I might stick to that and leave my KPG for my RWD MA. If not and 15 still misbehaves, I might go ahead and slap some lead on the belly to bring the CG down which will hopefully help despite the weight advantage loss.

soyverde
2009.05.10, 08:36 PM
I would leave adding weight to the chassis as a last resort (remember, cutting the hidden window sections out is illegal for HFAY, regardless of the total weight involved). As far as the MR-02 goes, color01's suggestion of narrow offsets (I run -1's on my non-GTR mclaren) is a good one, as is increasing camber, tire softness, changing your springs, toe, H-plates, damper, etc. If you think there are not enough options to adjust your steering response on an 02 you're probably not aware of all your options. If you really want to see what an MR-02 can do, try driving some other racers' chassis next time you're around. Most of us run a lot of steering for the HFAY tracks, but some have enough to rival any 015 I've driven. For example, I was very impressed with arch2b's HFAY car this weekend...I think I had a (roughly) similar setup in hand by the end of the day, but I wasn't able to test it out before the track was disassembled.

Skv012a
2009.05.10, 10:14 PM
Heck, looking @ hfay participants alone- I was the only one who ran a 15 and thats a sign in its own self. We'll see where I'll end up as far as niche goes.

Isn't it essentially like this: 15 w/ hop ups is like say, a sports tuned Mustang, but 02 would be like a Shelby/Saleen/race tuned and rebuilt Mustang? Same shell for a car, but incomparable innards and level of capabilities.

-J-
2009.05.10, 11:39 PM
Heck, looking @ hfay participants alone- I was the only one who ran a 15 and thats a sign in its own self. We'll see where I'll end up as far as niche goes.

Isn't it essentially like this: 15 w/ hop ups is like say, a sports tuned Mustang, but 02 would be like a Shelby/Saleen/race tuned and rebuilt Mustang? Same shell for a car, but incomparable innards and level of capabilities.

I don't think you can really compare the two like that. Personally, I don't think either of the two are more tuned than the other like you suggested (sports tuned versus race tuned). It's more like tuned using different approaches to achieve the same thing, a fast chassis.

One designer chose to achieve a faster chassis by further centralizing the mass and achieving more steering. The other designer chose to lower the CG and widen the front end. That's how I would compare the two using the format you did.

Lastly, I think if you really want to race and be successful, you've got to give up on using short/narrow bodies. Seriously. It's like running a KPG body on a LMP1 car. No matter how good the chassis is, it can only be so good with that body.

Skv012a
2009.05.10, 11:46 PM
But tell me, how much more successful, if any, would the reverse approach be? A semi-narrow body on 02? 86, FD, FC, S2000, etc?

-J-
2009.05.10, 11:54 PM
But tell me, how much more successful, if any, would the reverse approach be? A semi-narrow body on 02? 86, FD, FC, S2000, etc?

Not nearly as successful as a wide body on a well setup MR-015 or MR-02 depending on the conditions. That's the point.

Depending on the body and batteries, the body on a Mini-Z could be the heaviest thing on the car, making it, next to tires, the most important thing on the car. Body choice is one of the most important aspects of tuning, and needs to be treated as so.

Skv012a
2009.05.11, 12:02 AM
You're missing my point- whats a better chassis for any certain 1 body if I wanted to get the ultimate performance out of that certain body by any means possible (respecting the car's drivetrain, so RWD in case of MR)?

color01
2009.05.11, 12:13 AM
If you listen to EMU, then it depends.

The McLaren F1 LM and F1 GTR work great with the MR015 chassis since they are so low, but narrower bodes like you prefer would normally go on an MR02.

Skv012a
2009.05.11, 01:22 AM
I'm just trying to find my niche and once again, really appreciate all the input you guys give me. I like these RCs for their great blend of model and RC element and that goes especially for the body choices. If there weren't any street cars I would've probably skipped Zs as a hobby, so I'll do my best to accomodate my interests.

While it would be easier if I just built 2 chassis, I want to focus on 1 and achieve its and my own peak before I go off and build/get more chassis just for fun. As far as just my fun goes, I wouldn't even put 15 as my #1 choice- I would rather get another MA due to its sheer flexibility- AWD, RWD, maybe even FWD, drifting, perfect gear mesh, etc.

This also brings about another point- I haven't really mustered AWD MA yet and it could just be a time for me to do that as a break from MRs.

And lastly I think the fact that I reached this point means I grew in this hobby and learned a great deal about its finer aspects so I'm not completely frustrated.

EMU
2009.05.11, 02:20 AM
For smaller, narrow bodies, the MR02 with 015 towers is the better choice. For larger, flat bodies, I would choose the 015. Both should be similar with CG, at least in proportion to their size...

You want to be able to push the car, and the MR015 with the very narrow high bodies, cannot be pushed in the same way as you would an MR02. Although, on a wider, flatter body that does not generate as much roll with the MR02, the MR015 chassis would generate roll, while centralizing the mass and increasing rotation.

I have never participated in an HFAY event, with 4 mini-z tracks fairly close by... there really is no interest for HFAY. I am sure that with some tweaks to my favorite 015, I could put down some serious laps on the track. I could use a little higher grip tires, as speeds are lower, and corners are tighter. On alot of the tracks I race, they are competition size tracks, that carry alot of speed... I gear my 70t 015 at 14/52... and wish I had a smaller spur... I pace Speedy 07 cars on the straights, so it is not slow in the straight line. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7T7H4EQTY4&fmt=18 That is my 70t MR015 against Sai Tam's MR02 Aston Martin with Atomic Stock motor. You can see he is only faster than me on the beginning of the straight... The body was his, mine is dark blue so you cant see it in video. He did not have enough clearance, so the top shock was hitting the body and caused the car to get a little loose when I would accelerate hard (corner right before the straight). This car has seen very little change to the setup since it was developed, it is basically identical now to what it was 3 months ago.

With 2 different chassis you can do a head to head comparison, and see which you like better with which body...

Skv012a
2009.05.11, 10:08 AM
But could your 15 outrun that 02 given that the driver(skill) is identical? Say motors are identical as well?

soyverde
2009.05.11, 11:26 AM
No two drivers are identical...we all have our own setup preferences, and those preferences certainly change as we gain knowledge, experience, and parts. :D

Having seen what Willy and Sai can do with an 015 on an HFAY track (they ran as filler for spoon one year when we were in PA), I'll never count an 015 out of a race. I'm sure Eugene, Willy, Sai, and company would clean up if they ever bothered to run HFAY...regardless of the chassis run.

Don't think that any of these guys got to where they are in a couple of months time, though...

ocean rodeo
2009.05.11, 12:09 PM
SKV, it sounds to me that you really are having a hard time deciding on what car to run, and you want to be convinced by others to choose one over the other for you. My advice to you is this. Stick with your 015 and learn how to set up/drive your car to what works for you. If you need to drive slower than thats fine, consistency is the key and eventually you will understand more on how the car works and what needs to be changed in order to achieve your perfect setup. Buying another car because you are frustrated is not the way to go. Just my .02

ocean rodeo
2009.05.11, 12:13 PM
But could your 15 outrun that 02 given that the driver(skill) is identical? Say motors are identical as well? This depends on track layout and traction.

Skv012a
2009.05.12, 12:02 AM
SKV, it sounds to me that you really are having a hard time deciding on what car to run, and you want to be convinced by others to choose one over the other for you. My advice to you is this. Stick with your 015 and learn how to set up/drive your car to what works for you. If you need to drive slower than thats fine, consistency is the key and eventually you will understand more on how the car works and what needs to be changed in order to achieve your perfect setup. Buying another car because you are frustrated is not the way to go. Just my .02

Choose one for me? I'm just asking for ALL bells and whistles of each to help me narrow down both body type and chassis to fit my tastes.

Who bought another car? I had a gray 02 chassis kindly donated to me more than a month ago for this exact situation, so I'm just trying it out now.

Soy, I realize that fact just fine so bear with my quick and jumpy character a little :)

I think to conduct a good test I'll try a 300c on a 02 and see how this combo would perform. Its the utmost opposite combo so the result should be radical and clear.

EMU
2009.05.12, 12:27 AM
300c is a great body... might sound funny, but that body has won many races in our 015 class. It was my body of choice for a while, but I am allways evolving and testing different things, just for the sake of being different. Do let us know how the car drives, and how you like the MR02.

Skv012a
2009.05.14, 11:35 AM
Thanks to toyeast I now have an extra white body Europa- might paint this guy the same blue as my cobra and try racing it. Very unique, narrow body that seems to have decent weight distribution. Any thoughts regarding this idea?

arch2b
2009.05.14, 11:41 AM
i have a narrow/short white body to give to you at our next race :)

Skv012a
2009.05.14, 04:07 PM
Cool man, thanks. Drop a hint?

EMU
2009.05.14, 05:09 PM
I drove the Europa before. It handles pretty well, but you HAVE to make a front bumper. It has a high nose, so any rub on the wall will strip the tires right off. Besides that, its a nice body to run.

Skv012a
2009.05.14, 05:48 PM
I'd have to look at it again because it seemed ok w/ wheel protection.

EMU
2009.05.14, 06:50 PM
The problem is that the bumper is high, so if you hit the wall, it will lift the car, and the tire will then be pulled off. The same with the Cobra Daytona, and Ford GT, F250GTO, and a few other bodies. Cars that curve in on the bottom of the body, will generally do this... and will generally flip or be unsettled in a car to car collision.

Skv012a
2009.05.14, 07:37 PM
Hmm interesting and makes sense. Maybe I'll build a lip to hook into same slots as the bottom PN arm?