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View Full Version : What about the kyosho IC tag system?


Pierro
2009.08.21, 06:43 AM
Hello!

At our club we get the kyosho IC tag system for both dnano and now our Z.
Is there any plan to make a version of the flip side software that can use the kyosho system? We tried it already but the lap counter isn't compatible with the flip side software.

The original software from kyosho is rather poor and so a good one would be greatly appreciated. ;)

briankstan
2009.08.21, 11:38 AM
Are you saying that you actually are using the "core" based Kyosho timing system? or just the tags?

I believe the tags will work fine with the flipside software (not confirmed) but I don't think Jeremy has had access to the Kyosho hardware to do any testing.

Maybe you can donate yours to him for some testing so he could work on the compatibility. ;)

arch2b
2009.08.21, 01:20 PM
flipside has requested help in sniffing the new kyosho system in order to make their software compatible. i guess no one has stepped up to the plate yet.

the existing core tags do work with the new kyosho system, just fyi.

pinwc4
2009.08.22, 11:55 AM
I just bought one of these. It has not arrived yet. Hopefully after I get it working I can sell it here for close to the cost as I only picked it up to make my software work......

Arch2b, you are correct I have only had 1 person that helped a little but dropped out mid way through. It will be much easier for me if I just have the hardware for a while which is why I just went ahead and bought this unit.

Now I just need to get my hands on a DNano or DNano tag at least to make sure it will work whatever tag Kyosho is using.

I will know more after my Kyosho lap counter shows up.

arch2b
2009.08.22, 02:14 PM
let me know when your ready to sell the unit. the ics transponders can be bought seperatly either with the dnano chassis part kit or the mini-z tag part kit.

Pierro
2009.08.23, 02:56 PM
Hello!

We're using the kyosho IC tag system. Not the core one.

A guy at the club has get some other RFID chip that can be found by the kyosho system (the green light is flashing) so we can even imagine to use the kyosho reader to use other chips.

For the Dnano tags, you can now find the MR02/AWD model which will be easier than a full dnano chassis.

I hope you will receive you IC tag system soon and manage to make a good program for this system as the original is really too short I think...

pinwc4
2009.08.23, 11:13 PM
Anyone know where I can buy the Kyosho tags? I looked around some and did not find them at any of the regular spots I order from.

Pierro
2009.08.24, 03:19 AM
Got it from my LHS.

I know a least one store that have this item but it's a european one so I don't think it's a good deal if you only need this. :s
I would say check on ebay to find it if the shops you know can't have it...

arch2b
2009.08.24, 01:08 PM
Anyone know where I can buy the Kyosho tags? I looked around some and did not find them at any of the regular spots I order from.

nanotrax sells them but it's overseas. they should get here soon as it's been about a month i guess since they were available in jpn and we are usually a month or two behind. there is one for racer and one for f1.

Pierro
2009.08.25, 03:06 AM
I'm suprised it isn't available yet in the US.

If you prefer, we can manage something for me to send you one tag that i'll buy for you. But as I'm in Europe, I expect shipping cost to be a pain. :(

pinwc4
2009.08.25, 05:37 PM
Unfortunately I have no local hobby shop. That is part of why I got into Mini-z's, I bought some RCP track so we could have somewhere local to race.

Thanks for the pointer Arch2b. Too bad it would be over 50$ total just to get a tag. Hopeful
ly more of the DNano stuff will show up in the US soon.

Thanks for the offer Pierro, shipping would definately be costly. For now I will watch ebay, maybe something will pop up. Though one thing that could be usefull is if someone could tell me the UID/serial number of one of the tags. That would at least tell me what brand they are using.

arch2b
2009.08.25, 08:38 PM
the serial number on the dnano tags is: E00401001CE3BD06 831

pinwc4
2009.08.26, 03:33 PM
the serial number on the dnano tags is: E00401001CE3BD06 831

Thanks, that means the tags are based on a Philips (NXP) chip so it may be the MiFare RFID tags. I will be able to figure out a little more after I get the lap counter. Hopefully when I get back home this weekend it will be waiting for me but I think it took a sail boat for shipping.

arch2b
2009.09.13, 12:10 PM
any updates having seen and used the kyosho system?

pinwc4
2009.09.14, 01:15 PM
any updates having seen and used the kyosho system?

I do have the unit now but not any success getting it to communicate yet. I think I may need to get a Kyosho tag to help me out, though I will work a little while longer before resorting to that.

From what I have seen so far I am guessing that the existing Core and generic tags we have used will not be able to be used at the same time as the Kyosho tags. The Kyosho reader is using a Melexis MLX90121 rfid chip which while it is 13.56Mhz like the existing Core reader it is capable of both ISO15693 and ISO14443 communication. Based on the UID number you gave me before I think the Kyosho tags are using ISO14443 while the Core tags were ISO15693. Even if the reader works at ISO15693 it will be an either/or mode not simultaneous. That is assuming they even included the protocol in the reader, which they may not have.

The Kyosho reader is using an Atmel microcontroller, which Melexis provides example code for that works with both ISO14443 and ISO15693 so it is possible that I can get it working with the Core tags. This is just turning out to be a bit more work that I had hoped for.

Pierro
2009.09.29, 03:21 AM
Hello pinwc4,

Have you finally got a kyosho transponder to work on the system?


Thanks a lot for you hard work.

mk2kompressor
2009.09.29, 04:50 AM
ill donate a kyosho mini-z tag to you as soon as we get them in,if you dont have one already?

pinwc4
2009.09.29, 11:20 PM
I have not gotten it to work succesfully yet. At this point I think I need to get some other tags to get this work done. A Kyosho tag would be nice but the cost is high, I will probably just order some generic tags first and try to get those working first. If I can get generic ISO 14443 tags to work then they Kyosho ones should work.

mk2kompressor
2009.09.30, 04:13 AM
pm me your address and ill send you one when they come in:)

pinwc4
2009.09.30, 01:35 PM
pm me your address and ill send you one when they come in:)

Thanks, I sent you my address.

pinwc4
2009.10.03, 07:22 PM
Good news everyone, I have found 3 generic tags that will not work. Thankfully 2 of them worked just enough for me to get some communication between my software and the Kyosho IC tag system. I still think I may need to get a Kyosho RFID tag to get this fully working correctly and to be able to test it.

Oh and in case anyone wonders even though the Kyosho software could recognize the generic tags it would not use it. Apparantly they have some scheme in place to prevent using standard ISO 14443 tags.

For those that have a Dnano or a Kyosho tag already can you tell me what the dimensions are in mm? I want to try to find a similar sized tag to buy online. 2 of the tags I have work but have way to little signal strength, I have to hold them on the antenna for it to pick them up at all. They are useless even when attached to the bottom of a car.

I think that based on what I am seeing and they way the Kyosho antenna is designed that the tags may have to be attached to the bottom of the car. They probably will not get picked up if they are installed up in the body like we did for the Core system. Once I get a good tag I will know for sure though.

cosmicsoul
2009.10.03, 08:53 PM
Just wondering if there is anyway to get the core system to read the new Kyosho tags? Have you or anyone tried this yet?

Jay

mleemor60
2009.10.03, 09:01 PM
The transponder tag on the bottom of my Dnano is 16mm x 32mm. There is a number on it which reads E00401003551EA9D then separate but on the same line 8Y1. I hope this is of service to you.

pinwc4
2009.10.03, 10:03 PM
Just wondering if there is anyway to get the core system to read the new Kyosho tags? Have you or anyone tried this yet?

Jay

That will not work, while the tags operate on the same frequency, 13.56Mhz, they use different protocols. The core tags were based on ISO 15693 while the Kyosho system is ISO 14443. It is kind of like with RC radios, some communicate with AM and some with FM. So even if they are 75Mhz they will not work together.

Now why they would change like that I do not know, it especially does not make sense since both units were made by Core.

The RFID transceiver in the Kyosho unit is capable of both standards but I have yet to find a published protocol to communicate with it so getting it to work with the Core tags will be very difficult if it is even possible. They may not have implemented the ISO 15693 protocol in the microcontroller. I am still looking into this part.

pinwc4
2009.10.03, 10:09 PM
The transponder tag on the bottom of my Dnano is 16mm x 32mm. There is a number on it which reads E00401003551EA9D then separate but on the same line 8Y1. I hope this is of service to you.

Thanks for the info, that is what I needed. That is a fairly small tag.

pinwc4
2009.10.05, 01:01 PM
I got a little more progress done this weekend. I can now communicate with the Kyosho RFID lap counter to get tag UID's for creating and editing racers and can run a race with 1 racer. I do not have any collision detection done yet so races with multiple racers would probably not work well.

kalou60
2009.10.05, 03:41 PM
Oh yes
I am happy about your work.
I have try some generic tag with ic kyosho, the tag is detected but,the answers of IC is "the tag is broken".
I think there is a code in the tag for that the customers must buy the kyosho tags.

pinwc4
2009.10.05, 06:35 PM
Oh yes
I am happy about your work.
I have try some generic tag with ic kyosho, the tag is detected but,the answers of IC is "the tag is broken".
I think there is a code in the tag for that the customers must buy the kyosho tags.

Yeah, they must be doing something to prevent just any standard tag from being used. Not really concerned about that though, just want to get my software working fully with it.

What tags did you use and how far above the antenna was it able to detect the tag?

kalou60
2009.10.06, 12:20 AM
This one at mouser.com
texas instrument:RI-I03-112A-03

pinwc4
2009.10.06, 06:27 PM
This one at mouser.com
texas instrument:RI-I03-112A-03

Thanks, what kind of read range above the antenna do you get for it?

Also I am going to have to correct some of what I said in the above posts. I thought that Kyosho was using ISO14443 tags but they are not, they are using ISO15693 tags. I got my tags at home mixed up and they are not labeled. So it looks like we will be able to use the existing Core and generic tags we had been using with the Core Speedway lap counter with the Kyosho lap counter. I think the only thing I have left is to figure out how to silence a tag (or some other collision detection method).

Pierro
2009.10.07, 02:35 AM
Hello pinwc4,

Thanks a lot for your work.
I understand that at this time you think you can be able to use the kyosho lap counter with the core tags and your software would soon be able to use the Kyosho lap counter. But as the Kyosho tags and the generic one you use are different I prefer asking the question rather than been disappointed...

Would your software also work with the Kyosho lap counter and Tags?

Thanks a lot for the precision.

PS: If you need some testing with the kyosho lap counter and tags let me know. We can manage to use it at the club in different ways to help you.

pinwc4
2009.10.07, 11:40 AM
Hello pinwc4,

Thanks a lot for your work.
I understand that at this time you think you can be able to use the kyosho lap counter with the core tags and your software would soon be able to use the Kyosho lap counter. But as the Kyosho tags and the generic one you use are different I prefer asking the question rather than been disappointed...

Would your software also work with the Kyosho lap counter and Tags?

Thanks a lot for the precision.

PS: If you need some testing with the kyosho lap counter and tags let me know. We can manage to use it at the club in different ways to help you.

I expect the Kyosho tags to work, yes, though I have not verified this yet. I still need to get one to finish up my work. I tempted just buy a DNano and then sell it here when I am done just so I can get this finished.

Or if anyone is willing to let me borrow a DNano for a week I am willing to pay for the USPS priority shipping (preferably US people though so shipping is not crazy expensive).

arch2b
2009.10.07, 11:44 AM
email me, i have a dnano you can borrow.

pinwc4
2009.10.07, 07:10 PM
email me, i have a dnano you can borrow.

I sent you an email with some information including my email address. Thanks for the help

arch2b
2009.10.07, 07:24 PM
got it. i'll have it in the mail asap. enjoy :)

pinwc4
2009.10.23, 01:47 PM
Thanks to Arch2B I have a Dnano he let me borrow and have gotten quite a bit of useful data with it.

The current status is I have the software working somewhat with the Kyosho IC lap counter at this point. A few times it has missed laps for me, at this point I am not sure if it is timing in the software or just because of a poorly place tag.

The larger tags we used with the Core lap counter do not work well with the Kyosho lap counter. This is not a protocol issue, just a result of the design of the antenna that goes under the track. It looks like to use generic tags we will have to use the small tag type and mount them lower on the car, preferably on the bottom. Also make sure to protect the exposed side of the TI tags. It is easy to short out the antenna or damage the chips on those. I usually use some packing tape to cover it up.

The Kyosho lap counter does not have as large a read range as the Core lap counter, it seems to only pick up tags at most ~3 inches above the track if nothing is in between, like a cars batteries etc.

The Kyosho lap counter has an automatic polling mode but instead of returning the UID of the RFID tag it returns the data in block 2 of the tag. I assume they are writing unique data to each tag before shipping. Unfortunatly I can not use this automatic polling method as it seems to be able to verify if the block of data is correct, maybe some sort of checksum or something. Instead I am using the same method as was used with the Core, checking the lap counter every 1/100th of a second for a tag. I am going to play around a little more with this as I would prefer the lap counter to just do the polling itself.

The DNano will work with the Core lap counter using this software. But it can not detect the DNano in the center of the antenna, it must be placed near the antenna conductor to be detected.

Overall I like the Core hardware more than this new Kyosho lap counter but since they are not sold anymore this is what we have to work with.

pixelforce
2009.11.06, 09:14 AM
Hello pinwc4,
thanks for your work , looks good and got all what I m missing at the kyosho home edition.
IIn the past I ve had also problems with the signal strenght on Dnanos (caused by water hoses in the floor !)
generaly the RFID s on mini-z have more signal strenght because they are mounted lower to the floor.
If you send me a modyfied piece of your software I can test it (win/linux) with different dnanos and mini-z simultaniously on my hometrack under race conditions.

best regards
pixelforce

pinwc4
2009.11.06, 03:24 PM
Hello pinwc4,
thanks for your work , looks good and got all what I m missing at the kyosho home edition.
IIn the past I ve had also problems with the signal strenght on Dnanos (caused by water hoses in the floor !)
generaly the RFID s on mini-z have more signal strenght because they are mounted lower to the floor.
If you send me a modyfied piece of your software I can test it (win/linux) with different dnanos and mini-z simultaniously on my hometrack under race conditions.

best regards
pixelforce

Thanks for the offer, I plan on having a new version released soon that will support this. The source code currently has some support but I have a couple big changes to make to the source before it will be complete so if you run the source code it may miss laps at the moment. I will be able to get this resolved completely soon.

Most likely the next release will be in just over 2 weeks assuming no new obstacles. But there is a big catch, this release will only support the DNano's and other Kyohso tags with the Kyosho lap counter. I am still working on software to initialize generic tags to be used with the Kyosho lap counter.

Right now to make generic tags work I am programming them manually using a different RFID reader (Core) and then I can use them with the Kyosho lap counter. I am working on a better method though. Hopefully I will have an easy to use program to initialize generic tags soon. This will only have to be done once for each generic tag that will be used.

pinwc4
2009.11.23, 06:26 PM
OK, I have uploaded a test version of the software with Kyosho IC support. You can download it here:
http://www.flipsideracing.org/downloads/fsraceWin-428.zip

I am not publishing this version on the main page yet as I have not had time to test it in actual races. Please provide any feedback for this version, I will continue to bug fix it and hopefully get an official version .34 out.

Pierro
2009.11.24, 03:15 PM
Program uploaded.

We will test it at the club and let you know our impressions and comments. ;)

Thanks a lot for your work!

pinwc4
2009.12.05, 11:31 AM
A new build is available for download here:
http://www.flipsideracing.org/downloads/fsraceWin-433.zip

Hopefully this will take care of the Kyosho bug that you encountered.

epoc
2009.12.08, 08:23 AM
I just tried to use the .NET wrapper for the (FDTXX_NET) but was not able to use the lap time detector from kysho to read something from a dnano car or a "RI-I11-112A-03" tag. I guess it has been a while since I coded that close to the hardware...

Then I downloaded a demo of realbasic 2009 and the source from the trunk. My idea was to find out how you did it. (Even though I'm not familiar with realbasic.) In the trunk I only found three project files (.rbp). But none of them looked like the main project. Is it checked in?

I have one dnano, and a few tags. Let me know If I can test anything for you. I could test on Windows and Linux. Im interested in helping with the generic tags.

Cheers

pinwc4
2009.12.08, 09:59 AM
I just tried to use the .NET wrapper for the (FDTXX_NET) but was not able to use the lap time detector from kysho to read something from a dnano car or a "RI-I11-112A-03" tag. I guess it has been a while since I coded that close to the hardware...

Then I downloaded a demo of realbasic 2009 and the source from the trunk. My idea was to find out how you did it. (Even though I'm not familiar with realbasic.) In the trunk I only found three project files (.rbp). But none of them looked like the main project. Is it checked in?

I have one dnano, and a few tags. Let me know If I can test anything for you. I could test on Windows and Linux. Im interested in helping with the generic tags.

Cheers

To read from the commands you need to know the specific serial commands that Kyosho created for this reader. As far as I can tell it is not a published protocol. You can find what I have figured out about the serial protocol here:

https://www.flipsideracing.org/projects/fslapcounter/wiki/KyoshoICserialcom

As for checking out the code I am not sure what is going on there. Everything is checked in, that repository is what I am actively using. There should have been far more than 3 files. I tested a checkout of http://www.flipsideracing.org/svn/trunk using RapidSVN with no login and was able to check out all of the code.

I will probably have an first attempt at a program to initialize generic tags this week.

If you want to chat further on the more technical stuff message me through the forum so we can chat via email.

pinwc4
2009.12.09, 11:15 PM
OK, I have a basic app for initializing generic RFID tags to be used with the Kyosho lap counter. You can download it here:

http://www.flipsideracing.org/downloads/KyoshoRFIDInit.zip

Do not use it on Kyosho tags, if you do they will no longer work with the Kyosho software.

The latest build of .34 has a bug with the select racers screen. If you click scan to scan racers in it will only register a racer after another racer is scanned.

I will probably remove the scan button altogether for the Kyosho hardware anyways though. It can not work like it did for the Core reader. With the Kyosho hardware only 1 car can be on the antenna at a time during the scan. With the Core reader you could line everyone up at once which is why that button was there.

kalou60
2010.01.08, 09:18 AM
Happy new year to you pinwc4:)
Your job is genius,i am happy to say you,is perfect.
I inialised this tag texas instrument:RI-I03-112A-03 and after i can use your software, i use only alone but i think is ok for many tag.
Thanks you very much to share your work,you are "the king of the world" .:)

pinwc4
2010.01.08, 02:29 PM
Happy new year to you pinwc4:)
Your job is genius,i am happy to say you,is perfect.
I inialised this tag texas instrument:RI-I03-112A-03 and after i can use your software, i use only alone but i think is ok for many tag.
Thanks you very much to share your work,you are "the king of the world" .:)

Thanks for the feedback. I hope I have one more release of a test version before I can call the Kyosho support complete enough and release an official build.