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View Full Version : Opinion: No more body wheelbase changes


Old Crow
2009.09.11, 03:03 PM
Iíll start by saying I have no issue with Reflex Racing, in fact all the products Iíve tried from them have been excellent. I really appreciate their outside the box thinking and dedication to making the best parts for the sake of racing.

I simply, as a matter of opinion, donít agree, nor do I think it should be legal to modify a bodies given wheelbase. This of course would make the 96mm obsolete. It also would mean you canít run a 94mm body as 98mm and vice versa. I feel it should stay at the length it was created, and as little as possible should be done to the body.

Iím all for winning, getting an advantage, pushing the envelope etc. To a certain extent, there must be some limits in given areas. To take a scale body, meant for a particular length, goes beyond that limit and ruins the intent and appearance.

I donít have a problem with MR-02 meant body on a MA-010, and vice versa, or minor modification to bodies for the sake of fitment/clearance. I know what some will say, if you donít have a problem with this then why wheelbase? Two different subjects in my opinion, to make minor mods to a body is one thing, to change the wheelbase, the scale of the car and itís appearance in that drastic a way is another.

This is not meant as an attack, this has bothered me since I first saw fellow racers changing the bodies wheelbases. Yes, I tried this myself once, but felt so strongly about it, I sold the body. It would be nice to think a widespread rule could be implemented to keep originality, but I realize that would be unrealistic. Interested to know what others think.

yasuji
2009.09.11, 03:40 PM
i feel in the STOCK class that wheel base should be run as it is PRODUCED if the body is 94mm that is how it should be run
In MOD....run what u brung......if u wanna mod the body and change the wheelbase ...it is called MOD for a reason;)

Traveler
2009.09.11, 04:25 PM
I share your feelings somewhat, but I also really like the 96mm wb. My compromise with myself is to only run a 96mm chassis under a body that can handle it without modification. I am running a 2005 350z body on a 96mm chassis and it works great with no body cutting required. I have been unable to bring myself to modify an ASC body yet. But some of the guys I run with at HSH have, and when done right you can't really tell.

My 0.02 FWIW

CristianTabush
2009.09.11, 04:26 PM
Thanks for your support, from 2 people that I deem my friends in the community...

With that said;

Then we should also prevent from removing any material from bodies, running anything that is not 94RM or 98MM or 102MM and all the other RM forms, since that is what aftermarket motor mounts do- change the distance to the axles with the motor in a different location. In many instances, like for example the 350Z 2007, the body does not even need to be shaved in the back to get clearance and get the body to work. So, since the body has not been modified, why should it be deemed illegal? 96mm is just another tuning avenue, like changing wheel offsets is- to tune your car. If you don't feel like using it, don't, but it does not affect anything to where it is giving anyone an unfair advantage. And if the argument is that the bodies should not be modified, then they should not be allowed to do so at all. Not for ground clearance, not for lightening, since it would not be "stock". Stock in our racing is JUST THE MOTOR, nothing else.

MikeL
2009.09.11, 04:36 PM
Horrible idea, Christian summed it up good so I won't repeat it :)

mleemor60
2009.09.11, 05:04 PM
The adjustment to a 96mm wheel base is a stroke of genius in my opinion. On a tighter course that still has some flat out sections it allows for maneuverability that you just couldn't get at 98mm with a stability that just isn't attainable for the average Z driver at 94mm. To penalize the ingenuity and effort not to mention the expense to bring it to us would be an undeservd slap to a group that has gone out of it's way to keep us racers on the cutting edge of technology. Not to mention an open door policy regarding Championship winning set ups and performance enhancing tutorials that have helped us all improve our skills and make better use of aftermarket products from all manufacturers. All this from a group that has to work for a living or go to school. The fact that it can be utilized almost invisibly should be a plus for the purists. I hope that the brain trust at Reflex can come up with a series of racing bodies that favor the great Can AM and Prototype cars of the late sixties and throughout the seventies that had no defined rear wheel openings like the great Porsche 917/10 which is available to us in the Dnano.

Keep up the great work. Looking forward to more innovation and development.

Felix2010
2009.09.11, 05:33 PM
I'm one of those guys that doesn't see the "looks" and "scale-purity" as a big deal. One of the things about racing at this scale is that most Autoscale bodies rub the track, or the front/rear wheels' suspension are interfered with on the underside of the body by the headlamp buckets or the "wheel-well" design or what not. So to race these cars it is pretty-much always necessary to modify the body in some way (At least this is how it is for me):)

I think the fact that tinkering with chassis geometries and shaving 1mm of body height here or there can make or break a championship car is great. Tuning is where the fun is off the track. As well as the fact that aftermarket companies' parts are usually allowed in Stock-class racing, you already are changing the "pureness" of the original car chassis. Just my opinion, but every little bit of ingenuity in racing makes things more fun. I love the way Stock is set up now, with only a motor requirement.

yasuji
2009.09.11, 05:57 PM
there is no doubt that the 96 wheel base works.... it is a great product that reflex has given to the mini-z community ....that is not MY point of posting on this tread....
the 96 can be run under a body with out modifying the wb ,.. great
my issue is taking a 98mm body and making a huge fender streched foward 4mm to run it in 94mm or vice versa....
keeping it in the SPIRIT of stock racing and running the body @ scale:D
As i do not run in the stock class my opinion really doesn't matter:p

ianc
2009.09.11, 06:01 PM
Forcing people to run cars at the wheelbase Kyosho decided to create them at is not only silly and restrictive, it's a flawed concept from the get go.

Do you think every production car's wheelbase will fall (scalewise) into the neat little 4 mm increments that Kyosho uses for wheelbases?

Of course not, so even stock out of the box, there is some 'wheelbase fudging' to begin with. Nothing wrong with adding a little more to get the car you want to run. Kyosho's arbitrary decisions should not be taken as gospel...

ianc

color01
2009.09.11, 06:10 PM
It's always possible to introduce a new fun class at your local track, "Showroom Stock." Autoscales and realistically-painted white bodies only, no physical modifications to the body allowed other than what will keep the car from rubbing the ground (i.e., no more front splitter shaving!). That would up the realism factor a lot and could probably compete with Mini class for crowd satisfaction.

I think wheelbases changes will be here to stay, especially since track layouts are different everywhere you go. 96mm is not the be all end all, 94mm may be better for tight, slow tracks (think Asia) and 98mm better for really fast tracks (think Europe!).

JeremyC
2009.09.11, 06:10 PM
I'm a complete neophyte to racing Z's, but have raced real cars, and gokarts so I'm going to offer my opinion. I think the 'stock' class is grossly misnamed. IMHO the name should never have been stock; instead 'spec motor' or perhaps 'spec' is more appropriate.

Note that I don't think there should be a true 'stock' class, as I don't think it would have any entries. (In my mind a 'stock' class would limit you to a spec motor, and the only changes to the car would be spring rates, h-plate, and tires/wheels.)

Regarding the 96mm wheelbase, this change is far less drastic than many other modifications made to 'stock' cars. The first that comes to mind is the removal of the stock front tower arms, second is changing of differential, and third is installation of an entirely new rear pod. In contrast the 96mm wheelbase is simply one $5 part, and alters the car to a setting between two manufacturer settings. Personally, I don't see clearancing the body to be an issue.

-Jer

Eman
2009.09.11, 07:19 PM
Call 911 the forums are on fire! :D

lfisminiz
2009.09.11, 08:03 PM
I respect Carls (old crow) opinion. I myself agree with the majority so far. To me, the little tweeks on the bods, chassis etc....are what makes this fun for me. As most know, im really into the bodies. I have several bodies dremeled to fit different lengths. I think most of my bodies still look good, not hacked up. More tuning options = more fun for me.:)

Old Crow
2009.09.11, 09:29 PM
Glad to see the reactions so far. Again, this is about wheelbase modification, not because of Reflex, just in general. I only mention Reflex so it was clear I was not coming down on them, or to put it on them, it happened before there products.

I knew I was/would be, the minority on this and can agree with some and appreciate what's been said.

bermbuster
2009.09.11, 10:01 PM
I consider myself a body purist as well.....
I hate to see wheelwells opened up and a true to scale look get wasted.....

94 95 96 97 98 mm are all attainable. Why just have 96 as the custom???

cosmicsoul
2009.09.11, 11:25 PM
I love the smell of the plastic as the dremel shaves it off the body, the sound is pretty cool too!

If you haven't dremeled a body you need to, don't be afraid. I suggest going cordless for maximum effect!

Jay

Action B
2009.09.11, 11:29 PM
Yeah. I am more annoyed by the crazy transmitters other people have. I'd be first in line to enter a race where everyone had to use a nonprogrammable transmitter. I'm interested in seeing how many people can drive their car closest to the limit without the aid of electronic crutches.

benmlee
2009.09.11, 11:49 PM
With mini-z, the look is a very important part of the fun. That is different than other kinds of racing. Don't think there are any other scales out there that have such a vast range of scale bodies, or are in as good quality as mini-z.
So the concern here is having a good scale appearance. Having the wheels off to one side in the wheel arch is not scale looking. You wouldn't buy a car off the dealer lot that way either because is not right. Same with mini-z. Now if somebody made a 96mm body to fit the wheels, then that would be great. (Assuming that body also is as good quality as autoscales. No bar of soap looking turkeys here) Part of the attraction of mini-z racing is it looks like a realistic miniature race. Many new commers are attracted to that part of the sport. Stock class should have correct wheelbase. Pan cars or modified on the other hand should be unlimited. You can do anything to the wheelbase or body. The fun there is to go as fast as possible. Reflex racing has a lot of innovative products for going fast here. Both aspects of mini-z are fun. If you separate the stock and pan cars or modified, then you have the scale looking cars for stock that are not necessary the fastest, but are fun in their scale appearance. For people who are into speed and tuning, they could go to pan cars or modified and do any tuning they want to their car. Having a 96mm currently is neither here nor there. Is not scale looking, and is not particularlly fast. You get the worse of both worlds. Once you separate them out, then you can have the best of both worlds.
Side benefit of having scale wheelbase enforcement is it may also be a good way to get the faster drivers into modified class so beginners can be somewhat competitive in stock class. Scale appearance that attracts them to mini-z is what they have in stock class. As they get faster, and are attracted by winning rather than the scale look, they can go to modified which is faster, and require more extensive tuning.

Traveler
2009.09.11, 11:57 PM
I love the smell of the plastic as the dremel shaves it off the body, the sound is pretty cool too!

If you haven't dremeled a body you need to, don't be afraid. I suggest going cordless for maximum effect!

Jay

Jay's not kidding! I sat next to him at the pit tables last night as he took the dremel to two ASCs. I even said something to him and all I got back was an evil laugh with a twinkle in his eye. Bzzzz, Grrrr.

yasuji
2009.09.12, 12:41 AM
With mini-z, the look is a very important part of the fun. That is different than other kinds of racing. Don't think there are any other scales out there that have such a vast range of scale bodies, or are in as good quality as mini-z.
So the concern here is having a good scale appearance. Having the wheels off to one side in the wheel arch is not scale looking. You wouldn't buy a car off the dealer lot that way either because is not right. Same with mini-z. Now if somebody made a 96mm body to fit the wheels, then that would be great. (Assuming that body also is as good quality as autoscales. No bar of soap looking turkeys here) Part of the attraction of mini-z racing is it looks like a realistic miniature race. Many new commers are attracted to that part of the sport. Stock class should have correct wheelbase. Pan cars or modified on the other hand should be unlimited. You can do anything to the wheelbase or body. The fun there is to go as fast as possible. Reflex racing has a lot of innovative products for going fast here. Both aspects of mini-z are fun. If you separate the stock and pan cars or modified, then you have the scale looking cars for stock that are not necessary the fastest, but are fun in their scale appearance. For people who are into speed and tuning, they could go to pan cars or modified and do any tuning they want to their car. Having a 96mm currently is neither here nor there. Is not scale looking, and is not particularlly fast. You get the worse of both worlds. Once you separate them out, then you can have the best of both worlds.
Side benefit of having scale wheelbase enforcement is it may also be a good way to get the faster drivers into modified class so beginners can be somewhat competitive in stock class. Scale appearance that attracts them to mini-z is what they have in stock class. As they get faster, and are attracted by winning rather than the scale look, they can go to modified which is faster, and require more extensive tuning.

yeah.....what ben said.....:D

MikeL
2009.09.12, 06:36 PM
Yeah, so the PN guys dremeling off the color of their autoscale bodies to save 2g is scale looking?????? If there are going to be classes that are after all out performance you have to make compromises, and looks is usually one of those places you sacrifice for it.

yasuji
2009.09.12, 07:43 PM
Yeah, so the PN guys dremeling off the color of their autoscale bodies to save 2g is scale looking?????? If there are going to be classes that are after all out performance you have to make compromises, and looks is usually one of those places you sacrifice for it.

what does this mean....????who dremels off the paint...lol....
i always start with a white pancar body....lol;)

MikeL
2009.09.12, 08:04 PM
what does this mean....????who dremels off the paint...lol....
i always start with a white pancar body....lol;)

they showed up at our race with the color dremeled off, but still spotty, looked godawful.

yasuji
2009.09.13, 02:02 AM
they showed up at our race with the color dremeled off, but still spotty, looked godawful.

hmmmm sorry to have missed that...lol
we all drive mini-z for different reasons but one thing we can all agree on is that it is FUN! so it doesn't matter if the wb is 98/96/94/92/90 the better driver with the better set up will end up the winner...if u wanna mod ur body ,u will if not...then dont...be happy...if your not winning then try the winners set up....or come up with a better one....
the bottom line is ive seen treads similar to this one and have avoided posting cause it only causes conflict in this hobby that i love so much
so in saying that i will no longer post my opinions on posts which ask for my opinions :cool:

color01
2009.09.13, 02:25 AM
That's more or less why we buy whitebodies, right? Or the "Test" version Autoscales, which are just matte black. Really, paint is the least of our worries. TJay has been driving at World-Championship level with painted Autoscales, it shows that you don't really have to sacrifice that much to be competitive.

To be honest, I don't think this is a large enough issue to really warrant massive complaining. I don't see 96mm cars taking over all the tracks I visit, rather I'm seeing mostly 94mm MR02's and 98mm MA010's and we're all fairly on pace for the same power levels and most importantly, having fun. And thus my two cents, at least in Northern California, is that the wheelbase issue isn't even a concern. If you really want to talk about realism, then we need to talk about all those flame-themed paintjobs that find themselves in places they shouldn't be -- on European supercars and JGTC/Super GT cars. :confused: