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Rune
2009.10.01, 07:40 AM
I recieved a WTF2 for testing on Regupol.
I tested it against WTF and A-Arm suspension.

The product:
- The finish is as always on Reflex products very good.
- Set screws for king pins. very nice feature. Makes changing preload, springs etc very easy.
- There are made room for using -1 offset wheels with wide range of camber settings.
- Built in camber
- Built in caster
- Nice precision line-up on the chassis

Function:
- scrub are minimized
- Turn-In are increased compared to the first version. I think this is because of the built in camber. The knuckles slides easier on the king pins due to cambered pins.
- on throttle steering have increased
- High speed steering are a lot better. It has a more precise feel.

Compared to the A-Arm setup:
- the dreaded bump steer the A-Arm setup has are not a problem here
- Scrub. The A-Arm are killing my speed into the straights. The WTF2 are the best I have ever tried regarding scrub.

The test tracks:
Track 1: A very technical track with one fast straight. typical gearing with PN33 motor are 9/53. Maxes out at the last part of the straight.
Track 2: A more open fast track. It is 8 meters longer, and one second longer than track 1 in lap time. Typical gearing are 10 - 11/53. 10/53 maxes out around middle of the straight.

The surface are Regupol on both tracks. Grip is very good.
The reduced scrub the WTF2 gives are so important around here. The A-Arm setup kills the speed coming out of the corners.

Aslo we use the same hardness tires front/ rear, so balance are important. The A-Arm overheats the front tires after 15 - 20 laps. The temperature difference are about 3 degrees celcius. This causes the grip to fade in the middle of the race when you are pushing hard. This is very noticeable when you look at the tire wear.

Lap time with the different systems are not very different, but the consistency the WTF2 gives are incredible. We did some long stints yesterday, and we could manage 40 laps that only differed a couple of tenths pr lap when we were pushing incredibly hard.

And here are the picture. Forget the tiredust on the car. It has just been raced:p
The red "spacers" are there because of the screwholes are drilled trough because of A-Arm
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/8249/01102009892.jpg
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2438/01102009895.jpg
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8482/01102009893.jpg
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5195/01102009896.jpg

HaCo
2009.10.01, 10:03 AM
My mother language is not english, so could you please the exact meaning of the word scrub please. Is it the chassis scrubbing to the track, or?

Rune
2009.10.01, 03:11 PM
Scrub is connected to the Ackerman effect.
I am sure you will find a few articles about this in your language, but I will try to explain. (English is not my native language either:))

If you increase the offset, or remove the wheels contact patch from the rotation point (King pin), you will induce scrub.
It is how much a tire will sweep out compared to how much it rotates on its rotation point.
The more scrub you have, the more speed you will loose in the corners, and you will/ can overheat the tires.
In other words, you will increase friction when you are entering a corner.
The responsivness of the car are also affected. More scrub = less responsive.

HaCo
2009.10.02, 10:35 AM
Ok, thank you for your fine explanation: I understand it!

Felix2010
2009.10.02, 10:51 PM
Nice car:D All Reflex-ed out I see: QteQ diff, Reflex Rear Damper tube suspension, WTF2....

What offset front wheels are used in the pic, Rune?

Rune
2009.10.03, 09:44 AM
Nice car:D All Reflex-ed out I see: QteQ diff, Reflex Rear Damper tube suspension, WTF2....

What offset front wheels are used in the pic, Rune?

Thanks:D.
The front wheels in the picture are 0 offset. i usually use 0 and -1 offset, but also sometimes a bearing that gives me about -0,5 offset.

The RR sidedamper works so incredibly good at our tracks. It is so easy to get exactly the amount of rear grip you want, and it is also so extremely consistent.

The QteQ diff assembly, RR spur coupled with PN lightweight diff shaft makes a world of difference regarding deceleration/ acceleration.

CristianTabush
2009.10.03, 10:58 PM
Well, I got to take mine for a spin today. It was on a Pan Car, for the endurance race we are attending next week in Myrtle Beach.

I like the WTF2 a LOT. At least with a PC body. I am yet to try it on a Touring Car, but it has similar characteristics to the A-Arm system, with a little better stability. Don't know if it is quicker, as I did not have the chance to put a timer on it. The WTF2 is a little more responsive than the original WTF, it still makes the car feel very precise, but the middle of corner and entry steering have improved A LOT. Caster and Toe out, as well as less stiction on the suspension improved this. We were shooting for a balance of the A-arm System and the WTF, I think we got as close to replicating it as is possible with static camber.

ruf
2009.10.05, 01:40 PM
high 5! :D

CristianTabush
2009.10.28, 01:55 PM
The WTF2 is now available. It starts shipping tomorrow!!! The WTF2's will also be available at the PNWC via Jacob F. for 30.00 Euros flat... He has a limited number on hand, so make sure you contact him quickly if you are interested in one.

hrdrvr
2009.10.28, 02:24 PM
Coolio! I hope youve still got some when I make another order :D

hrdrvr
2009.10.28, 02:27 PM
Dang, no edit!

I just wanted to add to the fact that RRs car was by far untouchable at our enduro. His car was running more power than any one else at the event. His car handled better than Ive ever seen one that fast handle my layouts :D I was a firm believer in the WTF1, and after seeing his ride, Im sold on the new version :D

LED
2009.10.28, 03:58 PM
Could this be used on a 0 offset car like the small mclaren ?

I was planning on getting the PN suspension but now I'm not to sure anymore.
What would you guys recommend for smaller rcp tracks ?

We dont race fully modded cars either. Our rules have stock FETS and a kyosho X-speed motor.

Thx for any advice.

CristianTabush
2009.10.28, 04:44 PM
It can be used with the small McLaren as a +0.5mm with -1 offset wheels. As for the decision between this and the A-Arm system, this is probably best left for personal preference.

EMU
2009.10.28, 08:02 PM
That is good news, now I wish I had preordered a set with my last order :rolleyes: I will get one on the next order... Which will probably be sooner than later.

Are you going to be making one compatable with the MR03? Originally I had thought that the screw positions for the upper tower would be the same as the MR015, which means that it would work with that chassis as well... but I think the screws are 1mm further apart (19mm CTC MR03; 18mm CTC MR015; 21mm CTC MR02).

CristianTabush
2009.10.28, 10:23 PM
We are considering making a "standard", WTF2 width front end for the MR-03, but we are looking at the possible options. With this car we would need to make not only tie rods, but knuckles as well to make it work properly, as the camber would be on the knuckle once again.

Samael76
2009.10.29, 12:31 AM
We are considering making a "standard", WTF2 width front end for the MR-03, but we are looking at the possible options. With this car we would need to make not only tie rods, but knuckles as well to make it work properly, as the camber would be on the knuckle once again.

Something like longer upper arms, wider bottom plate and tierod?? That would be awesome!! :cool:

EMU
2009.10.29, 02:30 AM
CT, I have seen option knuckles for the MR03 with 0/1/2d camber. I think with proper shimming, it could be a good posibility. Im not too sold on the front end yet, and want to try comparing it with the standard.

I am planning to try to fit one of my MR015 towers on the car (since the space difference is only .5mm per screw), and use the standard knuckles and see how the car feels, then compare it with the stock front end.

I am not going to rush into this project, since I want to try the MR03 stock for a little while and wait for replacement parts before I hack the car up ;)

CristianTabush
2009.11.06, 05:44 PM
http://reflexracing.net/prodimages/Images/RX1135BL_02.jpg
http://reflexracing.net/prodimages/Images/RX1135GD_02.jpg
http://reflexracing.net/prodimages/Images/RX1135GY_02.jpg
http://reflexracing.net/prodimages/Images/RX1135SL_02.jpg

Rune
2009.11.06, 09:16 PM
Just had to add one of mine also after a hard days use.:p
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_2uRHE7AV3zs/SvTmToDq1NI/AAAAAAAAAng/n5CSOMca6Mc/IMG_4940.JPG
Works like a dream.

Traveler
2009.11.07, 06:32 AM
Got my WTF2 yesterday :D Installation was a breaze. Testing it out now.

CT and Rune, I noticed you are both running 3R plastic knuckles. How come?

I started with those, but the front of the car was too high, even with shims under the 3R knuckles, so I switched to 3R alloy 1 degree LM knuckles. That brought the front down a bit, but I still needed shims.

CristianTabush
2009.11.07, 11:41 AM
Marwan, I like running really small front tires, so the knuckles work well this way. Try using the PN lowered springs with the plastic knuckles to get it lower.

The plastic knuckles are super smooth when dampened and broken in properly, they are ligther and cheaper, this is why I choose to use them sometimes, but not always.

marc
2009.11.07, 02:41 PM
I like the gold parts. Will their be gold parts available for the rear section as well? A gold motor mount would be nice. "I loooooooooooove gold! The look of it, the taste, the texture!"

CristianTabush
2009.11.07, 06:39 PM
Marc, the intention is to have our own motor mounts down the road. They are still very far away though. Once it is available, it will be made in the same colors as the WTF2, which means that yes, gold will be available.

dvsstrike
2009.11.07, 07:46 PM
i impressions of the ver 2 is still in the air.. i am still faster with the original one. on the first version i ran -2.5 knuckles and now i have to run 0-1.0 knuckle. with high camber the car oversteers like crazy. i do like the toe out. but with the front eratic right now i can't give an honest answer.

CristianTabush
2009.11.07, 08:38 PM
Try harder tires, this front end is designed to generate more mid corner speed, it has been optimized to steer like crazy. It uses the tires even better, scrubbing and overheating them less than before. I have had success with small tires (trued down a lot) and slightly harder compounds.

The original problem was that the car did not steer enough, now, if all things are left equal, the car will be much more aggressive, so it has to be "mellowed" out. I like using 1 degree camber, with small diameter K 30's or PN 20's. With the 30's I may run glue on the entire sidewall to take away the initial "snappyness". Having extra steering is an excellent problem to have.

In Jacob's Pan Car, for example we used PN White AWD springs with about 0.5mm of droop in the front end at the WC to make the car go fast. These springs are pretty stiff in comparo to MR-02 Springs. The car was ballistic though! Jacob TQ'd by about a lap and a half over second place. He was on average about 0.5 seconds per lap than the PN Guys. Yes he's a great driver, but we had never gone 0.5 second faster per lap than Chad and or Philip before, a couple of tenths, maybe, but 0.5 seconds per lap at a World Final is an eternity.

dvsstrike
2009.11.07, 09:02 PM
tried all that going. tommorrow gonna try more oppotions and will retest

dvsstrike
2009.11.08, 12:09 PM
Got it. repaired issue and saw a good jump in performance. i now run harder front springs. my set up is now yellow fornt springs pn low down, new k30 fronts with k20 rears. 1.5 knuckles. front has more than enough front grip that i have to take alot of it out.

ianc
2009.12.08, 02:01 PM
Just wondering if there has been any further thought given to making some tie rods with toe-in available?

The new front end is working great on my LM with K 30's on the front, but I would like a bit more stability and less dartiness.

What do you say Christian?

ianc

chad508
2009.12.08, 02:10 PM
normally you get more stability with toe out. toe in in my test make the car to twitchy.

ianc
2009.12.08, 02:23 PM
normally you get more stability with toe out. toe in in my test make the car to twitchy

Chad, you have toe-in and toe-out confused...

ianc

CristianTabush
2009.12.08, 11:04 PM
I'll look into it Ian, although I don't know if I can justify the MOQ amounts.

And yes, toe out makes the car a bit more unstable...

chad508
2009.12.09, 07:39 AM
all this time i thought i had it right. i have a feeling other think the same as me, as i know i read it on hear somewhere.

hrdrvr
2009.12.09, 07:47 AM
I believe you guys have sparked a new conversation :D

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33265

Rune
2009.12.09, 09:26 AM
Toe in: Stability. Less agressive turn in.
Toe out: Instability. More turn in.

Rune
2009.12.09, 09:31 AM
But also. Keep in mind that the caster angle also actually adds stabilty to the car. This is very noticeable in the WTF2 when the toe out bar is used. The car is still very stable.
Try running the same toe out angle with 0 degree caster. The car will be more twitchy on the straight, and be a little unstable when the track is bumpy.

Sinister_Y
2009.12.09, 09:34 AM
The additional caster works since it gives more high speed steering. We used to use caster adjustment alot on the 1/5 scale cars. Fact seems that most guys using the WTF and WTFV2 pieces are driving mod pan cars and that is exactly the type of situation you want high speed steering.

Rune
2009.12.09, 09:45 AM
The additional caster works since it gives more high speed steering. We used to use caster adjustment alot on the 1/5 scale cars. Fact seems that most guys using the WTF and WTFV2 pieces are driving mod pan cars and that is exactly the type of situation you want high speed steering.

And also adds to the straight line stability since the wheels will be sort of self centering with added caster angle.
This is because the car actually sits lower when the wheels are straight, and higher when turning. The weight of the car will force it to center the wheels. Not very much noticeable on these small cars, but still the effect is there.
The effect increases with more caster, and also with increased weight.

JeremyC
2009.12.09, 12:28 PM
I'm currently running an MR-02 360GTC with 0 fronts. How do you think my car would change if I went to a WTF2 with -1 fronts?

I want a WTF2, so just convince me. :)

-Jer

JeremyC
2009.12.09, 12:32 PM
I'm currently running an MR-02 360GTC with 0 fronts. How do you think my car would change if I went to a WTF2 with -1 fronts?

I want a WTF2, so just convince me. :)

-Jer

I should give more information, and sorry I can't edit my post...

Setup:
1 degree knuckles on SS pins, usually with soft springs
0 Toe
0 Caster
94mm with soft carbon T-plate
regular DDS with no topshock
currently running Kyosho 20 rear slicks and PN 8 slick fronts(going to Kyo 30 fronts)

The car handles very well and has good steering, it has slight oversteer on high speed turn-in, but everywhere else the car is pretty neutral.

JeremyC
2009.12.09, 12:34 PM
I should give more information, and sorry I can't edit my post...

Setup:
1 degree knuckles on SS pins, usually with soft springs
0 Toe
0 Caster
94mm with soft carbon T-plate
regular DDS with no topshock
currently running Kyosho 20 rear slicks and PN 8 slick fronts(going to Kyo 30 fronts)

The car handles very well and has good steering, it has slight oversteer on high speed turn-in, but everywhere else the car is pretty neutral.

OK, I fail at the internet, and I apologize.

More info:
0 offset front
1 offset rear
Usually run an Atomic standard BB motor with orion 900 cells

Traveler
2009.12.09, 02:21 PM
Do it! I really like mine although I haven't raced it yet.

Felix2010
2009.12.09, 06:56 PM
I have a WTF-V1, and here's the thing: This is a great part for Pan Car. Using +1 or even 0 offset wheels with Pan Car is great, since the WTF-V1 has a +2 offset built-in.

Now the WTF2: Again, great for Pan Car. For use with a car like the 360GTC, I just don't see it. It might work well, but will it actually make the difference it does on a car that uses +2F offset? That's something for discussion.

Don't get me wrong, I like the WTF and the WTF2. The only reason I don't own a WTF2 is because I love the MR03.

The WTF2 has good advancements - camber, caster, and is a bit more favorable for AutoScale use now with its 1.5 built-in offset instead of 2-offset.

There is no wrong answer I guess. If you like it, buy it. It is a good value now with 2 toe-bars included. But the WTF design will really shine when you use it on Pan Cars or on a normally wide front-offset car.

Hope this helps:)

ianc
2009.12.09, 07:29 PM
Hi Jeremy,

I would say (risking Christian's wrath), that for the Ferrari, you really don't need it. I believe the WTF's were developed for big and WIDE cars which have to run front wheels with very high offsets. This causes a lot of scrub, which kills responsiveness and turn in. The idea behind the WTF was to improve turn in and responsiveness for these very wide and stable cars to get them to be better all around performers.

A car like the Ferrari which is quite nimble to begin with will probably not benefit by changing the wheels only one mm. If you wanted, you could try just buying -1 offset wheels and running them on the Ferrari to simlate what you might get with the WTF, but the effect will be slightly skewed because the track will be narrower of course.

I would say it would be better on an LM, pan car, or some other car which comes with +3 fronts out of the box. The greater the offset of the wheels when you switch to the WTF, the greater the difference you'll see.

I'm sure Christian will step in, but I believe I have it materially correct... ;-)

ianc

chad508
2009.12.09, 07:44 PM
i ran the wtf2 on my f430 with neg1 atomic wheels. i liked it alot but even with neg1 wheels it was to wide and would catch the rails. it may have just been the atomic wheels as i know they are slightly wider than pn. i also noticed i could only run 1* camber are the wheels would rub the top of the tower. this was no big deal as it was 1.5* with the built in .5* camber, and thats what i normally run.

blt456
2009.12.09, 11:25 PM
I'm running a 07 30z with 96mm + WTF v2.0. I love how this has .5* camber and 4 degrees caster built in..I can feel more steering than the WTF 1.0. I built my car last Saturday...slapped on 96mm + wtf v2.0 and I got 4th place in 2wd stock....in short it really is nice, adds lots of front stability with enough entry for me and might drop your lap times by a respectable amount (did it for me at least) :D

CristianTabush
2009.12.10, 02:50 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys! I guess they all kind of answered in a similar way that I would. I have not tried the Ferrari with a WTF2, but it should work great with -1 offset fronts. This becomes +0.5, which is still less than the standard +1 front wheels the car comes with. Just make sure that when you do check your front and rear track width, the rear is at least 1mm wider than the front, otherwise the car will push quite a bit. Is it better than running 0 offset with a normal track front width? Not necessarily. I do think the added caster can add quite a bit of mid and exit steering to your car, but this can also be achieved with the PN caster tower bars.

The WTF2 gives the car almost an A-Arm feel. The car has massive steering through out the corner, and gives a little more stability than the regular width front ends.

ruf
2009.12.10, 03:02 PM
I would say (risking Christian's wrath), that for the Ferrari, you really don't need it. I believe the WTF's were developed for big and WIDE cars which have to run front wheels with very high offsets. This causes a lot of scrub, which kills responsiveness and turn in. The idea behind the WTF was to improve turn in and responsiveness for these very wide and stable cars to get them to be better all around performers.

A car like the Ferrari which is quite nimble to begin with will probably not benefit by changing the wheels only one mm. If you wanted, you could try just buying -1 offset wheels and running them on the Ferrari to simlate what you might get with the WTF, but the effect will be slightly skewed because the track will be narrower of course.

I would say it would be better on an LM, pan car, or some other car which comes with +3 fronts out of the box. The greater the offset of the wheels when you switch to the WTF, the greater the difference you'll see.While the WTF1&2 are both very effective on pan cars, I use them with narrower autoscales like the F430GTC. The WTF has a "different" feeling steering that I prefer, even with nimble bodies.

ruf
2009.12.10, 03:04 PM
i ran the wtf2 on my f430 with neg1 atomic wheels. i liked it alot but even with neg1 wheels it was to wide and would catch the rails. it may have just been the atomic wheels as i know they are slightly wider than pn. i also noticed i could only run 1* camber are the wheels would rub the top of the tower. this was no big deal as it was 1.5* with the built in .5* camber, and thats what i normally run.Try sanding the outside of the wheel down. I always shave the Atomic front wheels since they are about 9mm wide.

Felix2010
2009.12.10, 09:19 PM
....Just make sure that when you do check your front and rear track width, the rear is at least 1mm wider than the front, otherwise the car will push quite a bit....

CT - About the front-to-rear difference in wheel offset (Or total axle offset, whichever way you want to look at it), do you always try to run you cars, especially Autoscale bodies, with the rear wheels at least +1-offset over thr front wheels? The reason I ask, in your PNWC 2008 team car setups, you were running WTF-V1's with the 350Z-GT 2007 body. You listed -1 offset narrow fronts and +1 offset wide rears were run. If I am correct, this means that the actual front wheel offset was +1 running narrows, and +1 running Wides in the rear, which on the MR02 should mean that both axles are equal in their track width. Is this correct? I am wondering if you still think it is good for performance to have the front & rear track width so close in length to each other, or if you would prefer to now use a +2 offset Wide rear wheel with the same front setup as talked about?

Thank you for your help! I greatly appreciate it, and the setup sheets of your race cars too!:D Good stuff. BTW - When do you think you might have the Team Reflex's PNWC 2009 car setups posted on your website?
Thanks again

CristianTabush
2009.12.11, 03:18 AM
Jacob seems to do better with the same width F/R that I do. I prefer to have a slightly wider rear as this creates a more aggressive turning car. Yes, you could get a similar effect by running a +2 rear, but overall, the WTF2 is better performing over the original one.

CristianTabush
2009.12.11, 03:21 AM
Oh, and as for set-ups, the AWD is literally, the exact same car I ran at the KO GP, I let Jacob borrow my car for the PNWC finals. Jacob even used the same 6 month old set of tires :o on the same exact car and motor... The Pan Car is very basic and is an exact replica of our endurance race car, I will post up the set-up over the weekend...

Felix2010
2009.12.13, 01:17 PM
Thank you for the info CT:D

I will check out your Endurance setup and also the KO GP setup too:D

yasuji
2009.12.14, 11:28 AM
ok got my wtf2 to test.....installation was simple i bolted it rt on to my existing pancar chassis...undid 4 screws and the toe bar....installed the wtf2....i used a basic set up for my first test.....pn 20 deg fronts on zero offset wheels trued to race spec..white pn racing springs..1.0 deg camber knuckles with the "A" bar...and fresh 6 degree radial rears
this is not bad at all....jus 0.2 tenths of a sec off fast laptime.....
drove it for a while and put the "B" bar in.......i preferd the "A" it was more stable in a straight line and 0.2 sec faster than the "B"....
over all this set up had more on throttle push than my orig set up and way more off throttle steering
i will be trying + offset wheels to put some scrub in to it!;)

CristianTabush
2009.12.14, 07:09 PM
Glad you like it... I don't think you'll get the mid corner steering that the A-Arm fronts give you, but a little bit of offset will help you have a more stable/ mellow entry than with 0's.

Did you try 96??? That's how we get the car to rotate a little bit quicker to get the mid and exit steering :). It also allows the car to accelerate faster because it hooks up more than the 98 under acceleration...