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View Full Version : My Suggestion for Next Years Racing Format


JuniorWKR
2009.10.27, 09:42 AM
My suggestion for next years racing format would be to eliminate stock and mod classes and find or make a good motor in the middle... i believe that stock and mod is useless as the lap times and amount of laps are identical.... i would much rather see PN run the same motor in every class like a 60t or
57t and run more classes... I think PN is really missing out on not running a class like LM or a narrow body class... Pn can even have a strictly 94 mm or 98mm class... a vintage class or a ferrari class... a import class... and especially with the release of the MR03 which will change the narrow body class and make it more competitve than ever... and i think my point is valid with the popularity of the mini fun class at the NJ reginals at MHS... this is the concept we are going to be moving foward with at MHS as we are looking for the right motor right now... the motor will have to be something that is strong enough for awd and f1 but not discourge the new comers to the hobby... I think Pan Car should be made an outlaw class and have it as anything goes... i think this class will bring some real excitment to the event and a lipo on a mrcg with a lexan body and foam tires would be something amazing to watch going around the track... Most of the racers that i have met will have multiple chassis of the same kind... most guys will have 2 or 3
2wds and a awd... why not make it so they can enter multiple 2wd classes and not miss out because they dont own every chassis that is out there...

Cherub1m
2009.10.27, 03:25 PM
My suggestion for next years racing format would be to eliminate stock and mod classes and find or make a good motor in the middle... i believe that stock and mod is useless as the lap times and amount of laps are identical.... i would much rather see PN run the same motor in every class like a 60t or
57t and run more classes... I think PN is really missing out on not running a class like LM or a narrow body class... Pn can even have a strictly 94 mm or 98mm class... a vintage class or a ferrari class... a import class... and especially with the release of the MR03 which will change the narrow body class and make it more competitve than ever... and i think my point is valid with the popularity of the mini fun class at the NJ reginals at MHS... this is the concept we are going to be moving foward with at MHS as we are looking for the right motor right now... the motor will have to be something that is strong enough for awd and f1 but not discourge the new comers to the hobby... I think Pan Car should be made an outlaw class and have it as anything goes... i think this class will bring some real excitment to the event and a lipo on a mrcg with a lexan body and foam tires would be something amazing to watch going around the track... Most of the racers that i have met will have multiple chassis of the same kind... most guys will have 2 or 3
2wds and a awd... why not make it so they can enter multiple 2wd classes and not miss out because they don't own every chassis that is out there...

I think that is a great suggestion. Make the rules around the chassis and body and open up the motor rule (only down side to the no limit on motors is, you will always have some new driver buy a 33Turn and add so many fets that the PCB cover won't close properly :D and have a undriveable car) or have a nice mid range motor that is powerful enough for the AWD and F1. I think any motor in the 50 turn range with bearings would be great(something like the PN Speedy 07 BB or the Atomic Standard BB). Because Like Junior put it, looking at 70Turn class and mod, the difference is usually only one lap and at times they are the same depending on the layout. At some clubs, racers will race their stock car in mod class because they are faster with the stock car:rolleyes:

I also feel that 70Turn motor is a great motor for the MR02,3 and 015 however, using that motor for AWD and F1 is not a good idea. The 70Turn motor no matter how great a motor it is it will kill the AWD and F1 class, simply because these chassis need more power. I am a little biased because I love the AWD and F1. However I have see what a Speedy 07 AWD and F1 can do. In short these chassis shine with the 07.

Most Miniz players are a multiclass racers That is why they are so many classes. However, I feel the way it is now if you race one MR02 class your next MR02 class wont be that different. However, if you do it this way that may be more appealing to racers: (Note: the classes would have more rules than what I just listed below. ie restriction on tires, body modifications....basically a variation of PN or Atomic rules.)

1)2WD Mini class 86mm to 90mm Narrow bodies
2)4WD Mini class 90mm Narrow bodies
note: possibly combine both the AWD and 2WD Mini classes I don't know.
3)2WD Touring class 94mm to 98mm Mixed of GT, Super GT bodies and the likes
4)LM class 102mm LM bodies only
5)AWD Class 90mm to 98mm Mixed of GT, Super GT bodies and the likes
6)F1 Class
7)Vintage 2WD class basically old style bodies I guess anything that is dates 30 years back or more.
8)Pan/Outlaw class whatever you want has long has its 1/28th scale. This would be a great class for development of new chassis and parts.

Doing this would revive the AWD Class and F1 class. This is something that MHS is moving towards and its proven to be very successful thus far. In fact the AWD class is huge at MHS my guess is you will probably see the Mini, Vintage or F1 class start to make a resurgence once these rules are ironed out.

I would love to hear some suggestion from others. Good suggestion, not "it won't work because I don't like it...just because" :D

JuniorWKR
2009.10.27, 03:33 PM
if a good midrange motor is applied the awd is now more than competitve in the 2wd class... at mhs a awd with a speedy 07 os fster than a 02 with a speedy 07... now i know the mr03 is gonna change that but at least it is more competitve... and running the same motor inevery class but a motor that is powerful enough to push the bigger chassis like awd and f1 will really start to show the superior chassis... i truely believe it is a great idea for something different... and having rules on classes is also a great idea philip... like running a true LM class... pod rims and tires would be awesome... or a awd narrow body class with only narrow rims allowed front and rear... i also believe Pn should look into allowing 4 wide tires on the awd as it makes the chassis more competitve with the bigger motors...

CristianTabush
2009.10.27, 04:39 PM
I don't know if I necessarily agree with adding more classes. Have you ever been to a PNWC Final? TOO MANY classes already. I like the format, it has been good so far. Adding more classes will really thin out the competition even further. It would actually be nice to trim it down to a Maximum of like 4-5 classes. The competition and quality of racing would really go up, this is how it used to be.

I think the Touring Modified Classes should be combined. This is how it was in 06 and it was very evenly matched. Today, it still would be. AWD and 2WD Stock can be kept separate since they are going at different speeds, but on a medium sized track, I ran faster laps with an AWD earlier in the year, by a few tenths, so I think that the AWD not competitive with a 70T is not entirely accurate. The problem is the past Regional layouts have been designed to benefit the 2WD cars on the track. Pan cars should only be mod and keep the current structure. It would be awesome to allow Atomic wheels and bodies, but the race is called the PNWC after all, so not likely any time soon. Lastly, the F1 class... Do whatever... That class is isolated, so the changes made to it don't affect the turnout. Stock or Mod, just keep 1 class tough.

What I would like changed would be more of the fast guys stepping up to modified classes to race. Stock 70 turn should be left up to the beginner to intermediate level guys. If you think an AWD is too slow with the stock motor, run MOD! You can run your Speedy 07 there if you can't handle a Modified motor. When the decision was made to go to the 70 turn class, it was so that the cars would go slower. Maybe what we need to push for is faster 70 turn bushing motors?

The club we raced this year has a 28x15ft track, we ran full blown mod motors, without a hitch and we did so at the endurance event as well, so on a bigger regional-size track, mod should not be that hard.

Classes like the Mini Fun Class are great for regional events, but have relatively little importance and interest at the WC level, it is sort of like Pan Car Stock. There are 7 people signed up for the WORLD FINAL race. This means that anyone can pretty much make the A main at the WC Final level. Not my idea of a "true" competition for the title... Not that the class is not fun to run, but does it deserve a "world cup" title if there is no big interest to race with the exception of 3-4 clubs in the US?

Classes like Pan Car will probably never be Lexan so long as this is the PN Cup,(unless they start making lexan bodies). Foam tires and lipo are not likely soon either just because this is a manufacturer's cup, and this would not be in the best interest of PN as a brand.

Motor rule... You are free to run any PN Motor... I don't think this it is realistic to think this is going to change any time soon, so long as this is the PN Racing World Cup.

JacobFeinstein
2009.10.27, 04:40 PM
Personally, I think the addition of classes is the last thing Philip should do for the World Cup class format. There are already too many. On the other hand, I think it would be nice to model it after World Championships for larger scales by having just a Touring Modified Class, where both 2WD and AWD platforms are allowed, and possibly having a separate Pan Car Modified Class for only 2WD plaforms. It would be interesting to have no chassis restriction in either class, allowing for more companies to get into the scale. Trying to slow the classes down is not really in the spirit of such an event. It should stay Modified. In many ways Stock racing should not really be a class at the World Cup, just as with any other larger scale electric Championship. The emphasis should be on simplicity and open rules, not further restrictions on body type or wheelbase or cosmetics. This has a way of speading the racing too thin, which is not something we want to happen. I see the appeal for a something like a Mini 90mm class at a club track, but for the PNWC the classes should be oriented around making a car as quick around a track as possible.

JuniorWKR
2009.10.27, 07:26 PM
christian i guess your point bout to many classes is valid as i think about it... the racing events could be cut down to a day instead of two... but im assuming from your statement that you agree it should be a single class... no more stock or mod... it would just be up to Phil wether or not to have it as open motor or a faster handout motor....

Jacob i also like your opinion which i feel also states that you would rather run a faster motor wether it be handout or open...

i really like the appeal of a faster event and i guess having simplier classes would make it more enjoyable for everyone... i just really like the idea of running the same motor in every single class... as i stated before we are doing it at our lhs and are having some great success with it... right now its the speedy07 but we are having some inconsistency issues with the motors... also having problems with the brushes warping when they get hot...

rocketman
2009.10.27, 07:50 PM
Just some thoughts, while I still have them. PN makes motors and hop up parts and therefore it seems fitting that they would sponsor an event that allows/requires racers to utilize their products in a way that maximizes their investment in the promotion of the event. The format you propose is like an SCCA event and while that has its place, an event like the PNWC is probably not the place for it. That would be more on a regional level to me. Having said that PN makes a stock motor and therefore produce a PN WC stock championship

When CT notes that 7 people are signed up for a class at a WC level event it is not good for the sport. Racers, by definition, should have to race into this event and there is nothing more exciting than watching a number of cars/drivers make it through true qualifying at an event where their decisions and performance can land them in the D main. When you make it out of that kind of whole you have done something. So less classes and more racers per class can produce that.

What I believe really needs to be done is for the PN and Atomic events to be a second tier of racing and to make, what I would call, Formula 28 World Championship, competed for every two years, and have the open rules so and it would involve Pan Car, AWD/2wd modified classes. No stock events. The rules would come from pretty much the rules we put together and while sponsorship should be sought from PN and the like no real relationship with the event would be had. This would be along the lines of what CT has done with his Reflex Endurance Series next year. If this is done then we have a true world championship in Modified and CUP and National events can have their national/regional/pancar/stock/modified/outlaw/specific turn motor/battery limited champions. Perhaps PN would entertain the thought of promoting a type of body for a years event such as GT, Vintage, MINI Cooper at the PNWC and change each year so something different is done keeping it attractive to the casual race fan. I love to see vintage anything race including me. Got to race sometime soon.

arch2b
2009.10.27, 10:50 PM
Just some thoughts, while I still have them. PN makes motors and hop up parts and therefore it seems fitting that they would sponsor an event that allows/requires racers to utilize their products in a way that maximizes their investment in the promotion of the event.....
thats been done before, it was called the kyosho mini-z cup series and it was generally not well liked due to the proprietary nature requiring kyosho only parts. i'd like to think we've moved beyond that idea and i'm sure many others do as well.

bermbuster
2009.10.27, 11:35 PM
thats been done before, it was called the kyosho mini-z cup series and it was generally not well liked due to the proprietary nature requiring kyosho only parts. i'd like to think we've moved beyond that idea and i'm sure many others do as well.

Part of the problem with manufacters cup series is that all parts are not available around the world. When making a world class event that is why Kyosho and even Atomic has/had special classes.
PN on the other hand promotes his races almost worldwide and has regionals wherever his parts are available. At the PN races for the stock classes you must use a PN motor.

Our reality with racing is we dont have a huge group of racers when big events take place. Sometimes classes are light you have to run them. Only 7 in stock pan but those 7 made a mains in qualifying regionals so while its not a huge group it is still the best of the best. It is not inexpensive to travel to these races either so sometimes its not the best guys running but the guys with the most money as well.
In the end we are racing toys for plastic trophies and bragging rights. Some race for monetary gain for there products.
The way I see racing is the really good pro level guys they make the A main and so on....so the newbies or intermediate drivers have the C D and lower mains. The reality is we can combine classes (stock/mod) of cars and you still have similiar results. I like the idea of seperating classes by wb....something different to try....
we can try these classes up to 90mm 94mm 96mm 98mm 102mm

rocketman
2009.10.27, 11:35 PM
Arch2b writes, "thats been done before, it was called the kyosho mini-z cup series and it was generally not well liked due to the proprietary nature requiring kyosho only parts. i'd like to think we've moved beyond that idea and i'm sure many others do as well."

We are in agreement, I was pointing out that PN requires PN motors and there have been other series where other parts are required. It will not take the place of an open championship and should not receive the support of an open championship. But we are talking about the rules for the PN WC and I got off track a little, it is my nature.

Cherub1m
2009.10.27, 11:58 PM
:D looks like we all want to go fast. Well, we wouldn't be racers if we didn't.

I Just want to clarify something from my previous post, the 8 :eek: classes I mentioned was just an example, I agree 100% with Junior, Jacob and Cristian on reducing the number classes (we don't want to thin things out) and CT's suggestion of 4 to max of 5 is excellent. Like 2WD, 4WD, F1, and Pan/Outlaw classes, all either with a faster mid range motor or open it up (even if you have to use that companies motor) and let the racers choose what they feel is best for them for that track. For the fifth class it could be any of the others; like, Vintage, Mini, LM (if its not already allowed in 2WD or Pan/Outlaw). I am not so sure about mixing 2WD with AWD, they are so different...maybe in outlaw class or the Mini fun class. I agree the companies need to make money and using their parts would benefit them, especially if they are running the race (in all honesty PN is much more relaxed then most in this scale in allowing other manufactures parts in their races). However, I feel the Pan/Outlaw class would be an excellent place where they could let go of those rules and truly allow innovation to take place. This would not only be a great opportunity for development of better chassis, motors, batteries...etc, it would also be a great way for other companies to take part in this scale.

CristianTabush
2009.10.28, 01:06 AM
Well, I refer to the PNWC Finals Level, nothing below. You still have to have stock classes to allow people with a lower skill set to develop and hone their skills as they move up and get better. I just don't know where the whole stock class fits in this structure, but I am old skool, so to me Modified was and always has been where all the honor and prestige is when you win.

Regionally, I have always been a believer that you have to run what is popular in your area so that all your members are happy. Nationally, have as many classes as you want to run, but at the Worlds Level, it should be narrowed down to ONLY modified classes.

Most People run only 2 or 3 classes with the current format. Where there is 7 or 8 classes (I don't even remember) if you ran only the Mod classes, these participants would still enter the 2-3 classes and now they would be spread out in 1/2 the number of classes.

I would love to see 1/28 Touring (AWD and 2WD together), Pan Car Modified and F1 Mod at the World Cup. Throw even in a Stock Touring Class if you want. But seeing the top 20-30 Mini-Z drivers in the World go at it in less classes, all running modified would BE AWESOME. Combining the Touring classes would be alright with me, the more I experience it, the more I realize that what matters most is the type of track to decide which car is quicker.

The last thing is the event should also be spread out to 3 days so that you can have at least 4 and maybe 5 qualifying rounds and triple A-mains for it without being on such a time constraint.

arch2b
2009.10.28, 09:03 AM
Arch2b writes, "thats been done before, it was called the kyosho mini-z cup series and it was generally not well liked due to the proprietary nature requiring kyosho only parts. i'd like to think we've moved beyond that idea and i'm sure many others do as well."

We are in agreement, I was pointing out that PN requires PN motors and there have been other series where other parts are required. It will not take the place of an open championship and should not receive the support of an open championship. But we are talking about the rules for the PN WC and I got off track a little, it is my nature.

there is an enormous difference however in a hand out/spec motor vs. a manufacturer spec chassis. with the mini-z cup, it all had to be kyo, from lock nuts to knuckles. there were exceptions but negligible really.

rocketman
2009.10.28, 10:06 AM
there is an enormous difference however in a hand out/spec motor vs. a manufacturer spec chassis. with the mini-z cup, it all had to be kyo, from lock nuts to knuckles. there were exceptions but negligible really.


While it is different, it is still to me a cup race if I have to race their products and therefore I feel it is not an open championship even though it is less restrictive than other formats that have come and gone. I would argue, that while it has its problems it is still the premier race today and with the lack of an open championship it will remain the premier event. I must say also that I only speak of the finals level here.

lfisminiz
2009.10.28, 04:28 PM
Great ideas by all. Some class thoughts i have...............

2WD 70T
AWD new stock motor,faster than 70T
2WD/AWD combined mod
F-1 new stock motor, faster than 70T
Pan mod

Just some ideas. Also place having regional could add other fun classes depending on whats hot in there area.:)

yasuji
2009.10.28, 04:52 PM
Great ideas by all. Some class thoughts i have...............

2WD 70T
AWD new stock motor,faster than 70T
2WD/AWD combined mod
F-1 new stock motor, faster than 70T
Pan mod

Just some ideas. Also place having regional could add other fun classes depending on whats hot in there area.:)

i think 2wd 100t /4wd 70t would be a better way to go to even it out!....keep stock slow....after all it is a stk class...
2wd/4wd mod is cool
f1 open mod......open motor and chassis using stk bodies:D
and pancar open mod!

lfisminiz
2009.10.28, 05:19 PM
Grant, were thinking pretty close.;)

bermbuster
2009.10.28, 06:43 PM
i think 2wd 100t /4wd 70t would be a better way to go to even it out!....keep stock slow....after all it is a stk class...
2wd/4wd mod is cool
f1 open mod......open motor and chassis using stk bodies:D
and pancar open mod!

2wd 100t now that will make your rental bodies last......:cool:

EMU
2009.10.28, 07:49 PM
2wd and AWD stock should use motors that in the respective chassis give them similar speed on the track, and they should be run together as a touring class.

Having so many classes makes the competition less... I like the F1 open idea, although, Kyosho is the only one with a chassis, but that can change if there is room for it to grow...

rocketman
2009.10.28, 08:45 PM
One idea that has worked for me and the tracks I used to run was to have a true drivers champion. One that takes into account all the finals standings and awards points based on place of finish to produce an overall drivers champion. This makes more entries per class because racers want a shot at the overall drivers championship and the opportunity to be known as the best all-around driver in the world is pretty cool.

Cherub1m
2009.10.28, 09:53 PM
Great ideas by all. Some class thoughts i have...............

2WD 70T
AWD new stock motor,faster than 70T
2WD/AWD combined mod
F-1 new stock motor, faster than 70T
Pan mod

Just some ideas. Also place having regional could add other fun classes depending on whats hot in there area.:)

Nice ideas about the different classes Larry. I think PN plan to use the Speedy 07 for the AWD Stock and F1 Stock, I am not 100% on this, but if that is the case then its a good idea to separate 2WD Stock and AWD Stock(with 07) and maybe combining 2WD and AWD mod (PN now allows any PN motor for mod) I am a bit hesitant on combining them, because I feel the AWD has an advantage, but I am biased I like the AWD. I guess with the loser rules regarding motors it may make for interesting racing. I also feel if they do combine 2WD and AWD mod the 190 grams minimum weight for the AWD would need to go down like down to either same has the 2WD or down to 180 grams. Well, if these things happen it would definitely reduce the number of classes. And the two stock classes would have good speed that would appeal not only to the seasoned drivers, but also to the new drivers.

lfisminiz
2009.10.28, 10:20 PM
Philip, that was my idea...try to cut down on classes. I like the speedy 07 idea/possibility, for AWD/F-1 classes. I dont get to race much, so i run atleast 3 classes to get the most out of it. But im even thinking of going to 2 classes to cut down on being so hectic.:eek: But then again........;):)

rocketman
2009.10.28, 10:43 PM
I would also like to see the format be 2 qualifier days and 1 final event day. While it means an extra day in a hotel it gives everyone more of a chance to get things together, less hectic, more pomp and circumstance take place and more drama can be built up. It would also allow folks to run more classes and try to win the proposed all around drives championship, which, in my view would be the premier get of the event.

JuniorWKR
2009.10.29, 10:45 AM
i like the idea of a 2 qualifier day and 1 final day... maybe to make it easy for everyone fri night can be a non mandatory qualifier... if those that can make it and get an extra run in can and for those that are confident with a one day qualifier then that works for them too...

bermbuster
2009.10.29, 11:35 AM
we want the event to represent true champs....how many competitors per class 30, 50, 10.....
the reality is you need a certain amount of racers to make the race profitable then after that amount the extras slow down the process....

what i have seen done in other racing venues for the light(entries) classes.....
offer a last chance qualifier on the friday of the 3 day event....
To make it in you have to get so many laps or the top qualifiers from the last chance qualifier.....this way you can get extra racers to fill voids in the program and it gives last minute or racers who couldnt make regionals a chance for the Big Show.....

rocketman
2009.10.29, 07:17 PM
I have thought about limiting the amount of entrants but if you qualify why shouldn't you have your shot. Right now there are 50+ in stock. That is a nice number but why couldn't it be more if more people qualified. As far as making an A-Main and having bump ups from lower qualifiers at Non-Worlds events I think that would be great as long as it is consistently applied throughout all of the regional and national level events.

yasuji
2009.10.29, 07:42 PM
2wd 100t now that will make your rental bodies last......:cool:
that would be a speed that most drivers could handle and be verry good at:D it would bring the racing closer

yasuji
2009.10.29, 07:56 PM
that would be a speed that most drivers could handle and be verry good at:D it would bring the racing closer

and on top of that it should be a sealed can and end bell with no access to to the brushes and com or armature....so there will be less complaining about how fast so-n-so's car is! so itll be more about set up and drivers skill;)

CristianTabush
2009.10.29, 08:35 PM
Stock 70 Turn is working... It is the most popular class, I think it would be best to leave the motor alone. Some people just tune stock motors better than others. All that needs to happen is have tear downs of the motors from the top 3 cars at events, this should mitigate the complaints. Do some people have fast stock cars? Yes, but the top drivers still go faster with Mod motors and that's what counts. Before, there was only 2-3 people that could do this at the events, now it is far more common.

Racing is still very tight in stock. Look at the results from the KO GP. 1st-5th were separated by like 6 seconds!

What would be nice is the Mod or Stock Rule. You either run in stock classes or modified classes, but not both. This would make the top guys not run in stock if they want a shot at the prestigious Modified Titles.

Either way, some classes need to be eliminated or combined, look at what is happening this time around, they are running quals on Friday, without informing a lot of the participants of this eventuality. Why? Because there is too many entries. A lot of people will be late to the qualifiers. They will miss practice and also the opportunity to get their cars set-up as well as the others who arrived earlier to the event. This is VERY POOR foresight on the organizers and does not reflect on Philip Ng AT ALL since he did not organize this year's event. I just wanted to make that clear, so that people do not think that myself or Reflex as having a problem with the PNWC.

yasuji
2009.10.29, 09:57 PM
i agree that mod drivers should not race in the stock class but you cant stop the stk drivers from driving in the mod class....other wise we would only have a 5 driver championship......lol
i do think that this could be a solution.....
WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP CLASSES!
PN PanCar Mod WC
Open(2wd/4wd) Sedan Mod WC
F1 MOD WC(I think that F1's should EXPLODE like the REAL ones do):D
2wd/4wd stk WC (an equalizer must be found whether by gearing or motor wind)
maybe that is it..limit the gearing..what about using a max of 10/44=4.4 gear ratio on 2wd

Z_408
2009.10.29, 10:25 PM
I vote for shorter qualifiers, 4-6 minutes would be great. Whoever is going to TQ will TQ at any qual time length. This would also speed up the day. Three day event would also give people more time to set up their cars. I don't see a problem with running 2WD and AWD mod together but if the classes are big enough, keep them separate. For sure combine the stock class. I have seem many expert drivers drive an AWD stock car faster than a 2WD.

bermbuster
2009.10.29, 10:33 PM
I have thought about limiting the amount of entrants but if you qualify why shouldn't you have your shot. Right now there are 50+ in stock. That is a nice number but why couldn't it be more if more people qualified. As far as making an A-Main and having bump ups from lower qualifiers at Non-Worlds events I think that would be great as long as it is consistently applied throughout all of the regional and national level events.

I personally dont like the idea of limiting racers either but the reality is you can only have so many races in a day.....
the one thing with mini z racers is they like to practice/tune/practice and if that time is limited racing suffers as well.
Lets say there are going to be 6 regionals top 10 from each class makes 60.
Most mini z racers like to enter 3 classes.
This current worlds has 183 entries . Thats 3.5 to 4 hours per round. Do you give practice between rounds....
The next question is how much time do you need for an event 2 days 3 days
or maybe even 4 days....:cool:

rocketman
2009.10.30, 12:03 AM
Bermbuster, I would make the event a total of 4 days although 5 would be doable it becomes the family vacation. Lets say 4 days for a worlds event. Day 1 is open practice for the 4 or 5 classes that are running the event. 2 hours each 1 hour in the am 1 hour in the pm. Day 2 would be 1 round of qualifying and 1 hour of practice per class. Day 3 would be 2 rounds of qualifying and .5 hours of practice per class and day 4 all finals. You could front load an additional day of practice for all comers and bump everything back a day. Just the worlds I'm talking here. Some kind of time constraints would be placed on practice after morning 1 practice so that everyone gets a shot at equal time. I would prefer 3 days of event with longer days but that is just me. All a-mains would be triple a mains with 1 round in day 4 or 5 in am/one mid day and one pm. All other mains single rounds. Probably no practice on day 4/5. Just race and win and leave happy.


Shortening the time for qualifiers is ok and it makes for a situation where batteries are no issue ever, especially in these whips, but I think an attraction to miniz is the length of the races.

MantisMMA
2009.11.04, 11:30 AM
i did some testing last month and the speedy 07 in the AWD with 17/31 ( i think) was the exact same speed as the 70t 2wd and the lap time were within 2 tenths of each other. it evens them out almost perfect.

z3zinho
2009.11.04, 11:55 AM
This is my opinion as far as classes go...

Pan Stock - Ditch it
Pan Mod - I think as it is it works fine, but I don't run pan mod, so don't really have a good grasp of what can be improved.
02 Mod and and AWD Mod - Combine the two classes into Touring Mod or something
02 Stock and AWD Stock - I don't think combining the two classes would work. But two even things out you could just force people to run the same gear ratio.
F1 - A motor a bit more powerfull might work out. The cars are to heavy also...

As for making the qualif shorter, I think a 3 day event, with some solid practice time, and more time between the mains is what we need. Having to run A mains back to back, then have almost no time between A1 ,A2 and A3 really sucks. No time to change bat's, tires, or work on you car in case something breaks. If we need to shorten the qualifying rounds to make this happen, then so be it. In the end, the fast drivers will be the same

Cherub1m
2009.11.04, 12:04 PM
i did some testing last month and the speedy 07 in the AWD with 17/31 ( i think) was the exact same speed as the 70t 2wd and the lap time were within 2 tenths of each other. it evens them out almost perfect.

Yep, at MHS that's how we run them and the track times seem to favor the AWD's at the beginning, but after the track has been down for awhile (a week or two) the times start to come closer at least the hot laps. The consistency still favors the AWD.

Just wanted to bring back up the Pan, and F1 class. Several people mentioned this already I think. Why not make these two classes open to motors and eliminate the stock Pan and F1. The Pan class Should be a ballistic class and the F1 should also be a fast class. The F1 class has very low attendance and opening up the motors will make it much more attractive (explosive but attractive:D). Another thing with the Pan class why not allow the LM to run with Pan and remove the rule of not being able to run LM tires and Rims. These classes are meant to be fast remove these restrictions.

z3zinho did you mean combining 2WD MOD and AWD MOD (not AWD Stock). I am up in the air about combining 2wd Stock and 2wd MOD and calling it something like, mod or super stock or blah blah... and doing the same with the AWD classes. At the local level CT had a good point about newer drivers needing a slower motor to drive, so a 70t for stock 2wd and a speedy 07 for stock AWD would work great I think. The other issue would be do we combine the 2wd stock and AWD stock into one stock class and 2wd mod and AWD mod into another class, and would this be something to do on a national level. We have to remember we would like to see less classes but at the same time less classes may mean the 80 drivers may enter less classes because their coveted class was removed:D. If that happens that means less revenue for the organizers. It just something to think about.

CristianTabush
2009.11.04, 12:24 PM
Phillip, again, the Pan Car class is as open as you are going to get it. You have free choice of EVERYTHING but wheels, motor BRAND and body. It is the PN as in (Philip Ng) world cup, so don't expect that to change. Phil spent A LOT of money on the PC body and wheel development, and this is why the rules are as is. If you want to run a true "Open" Pan Car Class, get over to San Jose for the 1/28 Nats. ;)

It does look like a lot of people don't mind the shorter quals. 5 Minutes long would be great, as it seems to be the standard still in other racing circuits and categories.

Binh, I would say that combining AWD Mod and 2WD mod is a more natural progression than combining the stock classes... Look at the times at the PNWC, very close for the winners of the mod touring classes, but a couple of laps off in stock. This has always been the case since the MR-02's got the better FETs (the rule used to be 3004 FETs only). The AWD could also get a faster motor, but so long as this is the case, keep the classes separate, or there will be complaints that it is unfair.

F1 should probably go back to at least a Speedy 07 class, as the motors can be pretty slow in the cars. It does allow close open wheel racing, which is so hard to do.

Pan Car stock, I agree with Alberto, give it the boot. The class has no place at the PNWC. At regionals, the class is OK though.

Maybe something like a 3 class max for all attendees at the PNWC. This used to be the case a couple of years back until Bill ran 6 in Vegas last year :P

Summing it up:
-Combine Touring Mod Classes
-Keep Stock Classes Separate
-Eliminate PC Stock
-F1 gets faster motor
-Shorter Qualifiers
-Qualifying starts on Friday (switch to 4 total quals, 2 friday, 2 Saturday)
-PRACTICE ON THURSDAY
-3 Classes Max per driver

CristianTabush
2009.11.04, 12:28 PM
Just got done reading your edited post. Revenue, is NEVER something that you can worry about a race, if you have any experience in organizing large events, such as the PNWC FINALS, you will find out that you will loose more money than make. In Europe, the organizations have to secure corporate sponsors to organize these races. These events take money and lots of time to make, but if you are expecting to make money from them, you will be quickly disappointed.

Cherub1m
2009.11.04, 01:04 PM
Summing it up:
-Combine Touring Mod Classes
-Keep Stock Classes Separate
-Eliminate PC Stock
-F1 gets faster motor
-Shorter Qualifiers
-Qualifying starts on Friday (switch to 4 total quals, 2 friday, 2 Saturday)
-PRACTICE ON THURSDAY
-3 Classes Max per driver

Actually I like that:
Touring Mod (aka 2wd mod and AWD mod)
2wd stock (70T)
AWD stock (PN speedy 07)
F1 with faster motor (open it up :D or any PN motor)

Hmm...limiting drivers to 4 classes drivers might not like that. I wouldn't run 4 classes, three is doable, but they are some hardcore marathon runners out there that may not like that limit:D.

I hear you about the Pan and LM class. I just want the LM cars to have a regular place in the 1/28 scale seen. I think they are highly underrated.

Just got done reading your edited post. Revenue, is NEVER something that you can worry about a race, if you have any experience in organizing large events, such as the PNWC FINALS, you will find out that you will loose more money than make. In Europe, the organizations have to secure corporate sponsors to organize these races. These events take money and lots of time to make, but if you are expecting to make money from them, you will be quickly disappointed.

Yeah corporate sponsors can provide a lot of money. But having 50 drivers and 150 entries because of many classes, can add up to a little more money. In short if those 50 drivers enter two classes at $30 entry fee, that would be $3000 and if those 50 drivers enter four classes at $30 entry fee that would be $6000 a $3000 difference if they enter on 3 classes that would be $4500 a $1500 difference. Yes its not has much as the corporate sponsors can provide but the extra $3000 and $1500 would definitely help with misc expanses that always come up with organizing a racing event. The entry fee has its purpose In just about any event that requires an entry fee. Now, if less classes translate into even better organization or superb organization and this ends up translating into more racer wanting to participate because the event is streamline and the normal 50 to 80 drivers goes up to 100 - 200 drivers then marvelous.

z3zinho
2009.11.04, 01:40 PM
Summing it up:
-Combine Touring Mod Classes
-Keep Stock Classes Separate
-Eliminate PC Stock
-F1 gets faster motor
-Shorter Qualifiers
-Qualifying starts on Friday (switch to 4 total quals, 2 friday, 2 Saturday)
-PRACTICE ON THURSDAY
-3 Classes Max per driver

I edited my post, to tired so it didn't make any sense...what cristian said Is what i believe would be ideal as far as classes. For qualif, i don't think with 8 minutes we need one more round, but with 5 things should be much closer, so maybe an extra round isn't that bad.

Cherub1m
2009.11.04, 02:08 PM
02 Stock and AWD Stock - I don't think combining the two classes would work. But two even things out you could just force people to run the same gear ratio.




Same gear ratio would be interesting. I can see it now, racers measuring tire diameter and calculating Roll Out to maximize performance. It could work. PI (aka 3.14) is a great number:D.

CristianTabush
2009.11.04, 02:59 PM
Honestly, we are talking about an event that takes too long already given the allotted time. Running and monitoring the same ratio would take FOREVER...

On the revenue thing, how much do you think renting out a conference room, as PN did last year in Vegas costs for 3 days??? We are talking 3-5K approximately. Revenue from entries is something that helps mitigate, but by no means covers the cost of organizing a World Cup. Even so, with 200 entries at $30.00 on average the total revenue is 6K (best case scenario), after trophies, shirts, event staff, advertising and the rest, we are talking about a bill that is at least 6-8K. Unless the WC is organized at local tracks/clubs. The disadvantage of this is that you don't get the exposure to other people, like in larger scales. Carrying out the World Cup is something that takes A LOT of resources.

rocketman
2009.11.04, 05:37 PM
CT is right about the revenue thing. I have run lots of big races and specialty events. Going in you don't plan on it making money, it is not like the weekly racing at a local track. You have to be able to foot the bill by yourself with the idea that on a long term basis it will increase your attendance at regular events or produce more sales of your competition products. You can only hope to mitigate the outlay of cash by attracting corporate sponsors and doing a good job at locating the event is helpful. Most of the money today is spent on the location. This is where Co-op deal with your location would be most beneficial. You provide advertising and foot traffic for them and they provide you with a cheap space that is more than suitable for your event. I am guessing this should be under another subject but oh well.

Perhaps we could have a sub under Events where we could continue to exchange ideas. I believe this could be beneficial to the track owners group.

Cherub1m
2009.11.04, 11:05 PM
Honestly, we are talking about an event that takes too long already given the allotted time. Running and monitoring the same ratio would take FOREVER...



:D I agree that would take a long time.



Revenue from entries is something that helps mitigate, but by no means covers the cost of organizing a World Cup. Even so, with 200 entries at $30.00 on average the total revenue is 6K (best case scenario), after trophies, shirts, event staff, advertising and the rest, we are talking about a bill that is at least 6-8K.

I agree it does not cover the cost of a properly run World Cup. However, some organizers may say it's better to make 6K and beak even or be under 2K, then to make 3K and be under 3K or 5K under after all the cost. Getting has many sponsors has possible is always nice.

I am guessing this should be under another subject but oh well.

Perhaps we could have a sub under Events where we could continue to exchange ideas. I believe this could be beneficial to the track owners group.

A thread of it's own...it may help track owners and future organizers especially if more people share some good ideas, like the best way to prepare and approach potential sponsors. With hopes to get more exposure for the 1/28th scale class.