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briankstan
2009.11.23, 01:02 PM
Iím looking for some help with my AWD Mod setup. Iím not to familiar with the AWD Chassis, Iíve had the car for over a year but just never got to messing with it. The chassis tracks really good, nice and straight. It puts the power down good and handles great under power, it also turns very nice. The problem Iím having is while off throttle. When I slow coming into a corner the chassis likes to flip (traction roll). It doesnít do this while on power, and Iím not sure what is causing it.

A little (or a lot) of help from the AWD experts out there would be greatly appreciated. Iíd also like some advice on what body is good for the AWD and is a 98mm setup an advantage on the AWD Chassis?

Here is what I have:

2005 Nissan 350Z body, Light buckets removed.
AWD gold terminal chassis setup at 94mm
2.4ghz board
Atomic Ball diff front and rear
PN 0.5 degree Knuckles front and rear.
PN Bearings
Kyosho 30į treaded fronts
Kyosoh 20į slick rears.
PN Speed AD motor
Stock toe front and rear
Front springs PN lowdown light blue
Rear springs PN lowdown green

z3zinho
2009.11.23, 01:23 PM
You appear to have to much front grip... try K30 slicks, and glue the side-walls of the tires with CA. That should help out a bit.

dxm2
2009.11.23, 01:23 PM
Hi Brian,
I'm not familiar with the off power traction roll issue, but you might be catching a wheel against the fender as the weight comes forward. Check the clearance of the front wheels while turned and maybe try some stiffer front springs.

In terms of 98mm, I converted from 94 to 98 and immediately became competitive in our little race group. Even on the small courses we run, the car does everything better than it did at 94. I'm running a McLaren LM body with no wing and +2.5N up front and +1.5W in back with a StockR motor.

Action B
2009.11.23, 01:34 PM
Other than catching a wheel on the fender, you could also be bottoming out the side of the actual body on the RCP. This happened with my old calsonic skyline body. I had set the car up too low and too soft so during corners off throttle the body would roll and actually hit the rcp on the outside. This sent the car rolling every time. The fix was to raise the car some and stiffen up the suspension with some harder springs. 98mm will also help greatly in my opinion. I know the rave is 96mm right now from reflex racing. To be honest, I wouldn't bother unless your having trouble with understeer from the 98mm. I find I'm usually trying to reduce steering with my AWD and trying to increase its stability. Though, I'm no pro either. I can't even get the ball diffs to work properly. I'm still rolling on stock differentials.

briankstan
2009.11.23, 01:57 PM
I hadn't thought of the wheels hitting the under side of the body while coming off throttle. I am running hard springs up front and had not considered that the body would "dive" that much when braking. I'll check that out as well as try some harder tires and possibly some shorter side wall heights.

anything else I should consider?

Tjay
2009.11.23, 02:06 PM
Me too I need help. :)

I just recently started to work on my AWD and if I have to total the hours, I would say I'm in for at least 9 hours and the car is still in pieces. I'm stuck on one thing... Once that is done (I hope soon), I'll let you know.

AWD: As much as possible, do not let go of the throttle to neutral position when coming into a turn. It likes it on-throttle at all times. :)

dxm2
2009.11.23, 02:42 PM
AWD definietly is not easy....
My AWD took twice as much time and twice as much money on after market parts just to get it driveable. And although it eventually did become kinda driveable, I don't like driving it as much as the 2wd cars.

briankstan
2009.11.23, 03:38 PM
Me too I need help. :)

I just recently started to work on my AWD and if I have to total the hours, I would say I'm in for at least 9 hours and the car is still in pieces. I'm stuck on one thing... Once that is done (I hope soon), I'll let you know.

AWD: As much as possible, do not let go of the throttle to neutral position when coming into a turn. It likes it on-throttle at all times. :)

This is exactly what it's doing. I was just trying to drive is like my 02 or 03. Maybe I just need to try some different driving styles and see if something works. I thought is was strange that is would traction roll off throttle, but I could take the High speed sweepers at full speed and it was planted.

Thanks for the advise.

dvsstrike
2009.11.23, 04:24 PM
brian try using pn low down prurple in front and switch to pn 25 or 20 fronts and 1 deg rear toe.

briankstan
2009.11.23, 04:35 PM
brian try using pn low down prurple in front and switch to pn 25 or 20 fronts and 1 deg rear toe.

I'll have to get some rear toe bars ordered so I have some to mess with.

What does rear toe affect? also would changing the degree of my knuckles affect the traction roll?

mk2kompressor
2009.11.23, 04:41 PM
rear toe makes the back end more stable on power.
id look into the body scrub issue and are you getting even wear on the front?
with .5 knuckles those front tyres may be digging in to the rcp as they have a sharp sidewall,i run 1.5 front and 1.5-2 rear depending on grip

hrdrvr
2009.11.23, 04:43 PM
Are you using any dampening grease on the tops of the knuckles? This help a lot if its not the other issues in the thread (something catching or too much front grip).

Also, driving style is a definite change from 2wds. I find its easiest to blip off throttle before coming into the turn, so I can throttle through and out. This way the weight is not shifting from the slow down and turn in at the same time. I end up carrying more exit speed this way anyhow, so I like this approach. Also by letting off coming into the turn, Im a lot more confident that Im going to be able to hit a tighter lines (as opposed to entering with everything at max speed), which also leads to lower lap times.

dvsstrike
2009.11.23, 04:43 PM
yes rear toe stabilizes the rear. you may also try using 1.5 camber in front those .5 may be digging in.when i ran 94 i ran 2deg all aroung and

briankstan
2009.11.23, 04:54 PM
this is all great info, I was putting together a list of things to buy. This gives me a good idea as to where to start and what I might need to get thing headed in the right direction.

briankstan
2009.11.24, 11:03 AM
After a little testing last night I came up with a few things.

I went with the light blue low down springs (hard) in the front, then put some softer ones on the back (yellow Low down). I put some PN 20 slick fronts on, and some PN 8 treaded rears. I also removed the lowering spacer from below the knuckle. It provided a little extra clearance for the front wheels. I couldnít tell that the front tires were scrubbing the under side of the body while on the track. They would only hit when the wheel was turned full lock and the suspension was at full compression.

This was by far the best combination that I had tried. I was pretty planted and could run fast and consistent. It was far less unstable under little to no throttle conditions. I have noticed that the front and rear tires are wearing at the outside lip. Iíve figured that this is part of the reason that the chassis tends to grab at the tires and causing the traction roll. Another observation was that when the front suspension compresses it tend to lift the opposite rear tire off the track. This makes the rear of the car less stable, I solved this with the harder from springs, and the slightly softer rear springs.

Iím assuming that with running the higher degree camber knuckles that is rolls the edges of the tires away so the are less apt to grab when the chassis it corning and elevates some or all of the front and rear chatter that you get when the edges of the tires grab at the track.

What do you think of my assessment? Am I on track or way off?

Iíll be placing an order with some more tuning parts so I can test out some different setups.

As always you comments and suggestions are appreciated.

Tjay
2009.11.24, 11:46 AM
I went with the light blue low down springs (hard) in the front, then put some softer ones on the back (yellow Low down).

I think you got this backwards Brian.

My AWD is finally done. I will post up some info on it in a little bit.

Tjay
2009.11.24, 11:58 AM
After a little testing last night I came up with a few things.

I went with the light blue low down springs (hard) in the front, then put some softer ones on the back (yellow Low down). I put some PN 20 slick fronts on, and some PN 8 treaded rears. I also removed the lowering spacer from below the knuckle. It provided a little extra clearance for the front wheels. I couldnít tell that the front tires were scrubbing the under side of the body while on the track. They would only hit when the wheel was turned full lock and the suspension was at full compression.

This was by far the best combination that I had tried. I was pretty planted and could run fast and consistent. It was far less unstable under little to no throttle conditions. I have noticed that the front and rear tires are wearing at the outside lip. Iíve figured that this is part of the reason that the chassis tends to grab at the tires and causing the traction roll. Another observation was that when the front suspension compresses it tend to lift the opposite rear tire off the track. This makes the rear of the car less stable, I solved this with the harder from springs, and the slightly softer rear springs.

Iím assuming that with running the higher degree camber knuckles that is rolls the edges of the tires away so the are less apt to grab when the chassis it corning and elevates some or all of the front and rear chatter that you get when the edges of the tires grab at the track.

What do you think of my assessment? Am I on track or way off?

Iíll be placing an order with some more tuning parts so I can test out some different setups.

As always you comments and suggestions are appreciated.

That is very good Brian!

You should also try the following:

PN 2.0 Camber Front
PN 1.5-2.0 Camber Rear
Kyosho 20 Slick Rear with rounded off sidewalls (I use fine sandpaper)
PN 20 slicks with super glued sidewalls
PN blue droop spacer Rear
PN Orange droop spacer Front

Good luck!

briankstan
2009.11.24, 12:03 PM
I think you got this backwards Brian.

My AWD is finally done. I will post up some info on it in a little bit.

nope that is how I have it. with the softer spring in the front the suspension would lift the rear tire as it compressed. with the hard spring it didn't compress as much and helped keep the back wheel from lifting and braking traction.

Tjay
2009.11.24, 12:05 PM
I meant, yellow is hard and light blue is soft unless otherwise we're not talking PN language. :)

Diff is done btw. ;)

briankstan
2009.11.24, 12:07 PM
PN blue droop spacer Rear
PN Orange droop spacer Front

Good luck!

What are these? I don't seem to find them?

briankstan
2009.11.24, 12:08 PM
I meant, yellow is hard and light blue is soft unless otherwise we're not talking PN language. :)

Diff is done btw. ;)

oh, I got you! yes that is right. Looking forward to testing the diff. :cool:

Tjay
2009.11.24, 12:12 PM
http://www.rckenon.com/public_html/shop2/catalog/images/700406.JPG
Parts # 700406

briankstan
2009.11.24, 12:39 PM
thanks, I've got them added to my order. Man all these little things really add up. :eek:

Tjay
2009.11.24, 12:40 PM
thanks, I've got them added to my order. Man all these little things really add up. :eek:

:D You're gonna have to start stocking up on your AWD stuff Brian. ;)

briankstan
2009.11.24, 01:16 PM
this is more just for my enjoyment than anything. :D I doubt I'll get to even run it that often other than solo at home. Nobody else in our club runs AWD or mod for that matter (Several of them are finally building Pan Cars). it's just one more thing to have fun with and see what I can do with it.

Action B
2009.11.24, 05:55 PM
I found with my awd that on turns you must hold slight throttle. An AWD car is only all wheel drive when there is throttle applied. Once you remove the throttle the car becomes unstable during a corner. I make sure to at least barely hold throttle during corners.

Tell me how that differential works out. I've yet to get a ball differential to have a positive effect on my car. I still run gear differentials. I might get an MR-02 in the future since I've never been able to run very fast with the all wheel drive, however, I don't even know where to begin with a rear wheel drive.

EMU
2009.11.24, 06:49 PM
My AWD handles well on and off throttle... You have to use some grease on the kingpins to dampen the suspension. I use a thicker grease in the front and thinner in the rear.

At different tracks I get different results due to grip. I change the body according to the track I race at to adjust the car to the track. That is the only change that I make. Some tracks have lower grip, so I use a higher CG body to generate more steering. High grip tracks I use lower CG bodies.

I have 2 cars, one is 94mm SAS pro. The other is 96mm Reflex setup. The Reflex setup is the one that I use more, I very rarely have to make any adjustments to it.

Make sure to glue up the front tire sidewalls as well, and glue down the rear tire lip. That is the best way to get rid of chatter.

Brian, run your AWD against their 2wd cars... That is if you can. In our stock class at Action RC, I use a Speedy 07bb or ATM Stock motor in my AWD against equivalent motors in 2wd cars, and usually finish in the top 3. Once you get the setup worked out, the car is very dependable.

Try a slightly loose front diff, and drive it more like a 2wd car than an AWD. It will handle very similar, the main difference is that you can get on power earlier, and wont spin out the same. Keep the rear diff similar to how you would a 2wd, or a little tighter.

Action B
2009.11.24, 06:53 PM
My AWD handles well on and off throttle... You have to use some grease on the kingpins to dampen the suspension. I use a thicker grease in the front and thinner in the rear.

At different tracks I get different results due to grip. I change the body according to the track I race at to adjust the car to the track. That is the only change that I make. Some tracks have lower grip, so I use a higher CG body to generate more steering. High grip tracks I use lower CG bodies.

I have 2 cars, one is 94mm SAS pro. The other is 96mm Reflex setup. The Reflex setup is the one that I use more, I very rarely have to make any adjustments to it.

Make sure to glue up the front tire sidewalls as well, and glue down the rear tire lip. That is the best way to get rid of chatter.

Brian, run your AWD against their 2wd cars... That is if you can. In our stock class at Action RC, I use a Speedy 07bb or ATM Stock motor in my AWD against equivalent motors in 2wd cars, and usually finish in the top 3. Once you get the setup worked out, the car is very dependable.

Try a slightly loose front diff, and drive it more like a 2wd car than an AWD. It will handle very similar, the main difference is that you can get on power earlier, and wont spin out the same. Keep the rear diff similar to how you would a 2wd, or a little tighter.
I'm interested. Do you run wide tires rear? I run semiwides all around.

EMU
2009.11.24, 07:01 PM
I have tried Narrow all around, wide all around... I use wide rear and narrow front now.

Atomic 8d radial rear tires with Kyosho 30d radial front. When I cant find the ATM 8d rears, I substitute Kyosho 20d radials or PN 6d radials. The ATM tires work the best for me.

My 94mm setup has W K20d radials, with N ATM Slick-R 40 in front... Small 350z race body.

briankstan
2009.11.24, 09:01 PM
thanks for all the advice it'll come in really handy when I get all the parts I've ordered and can test out some other things.

EMU, what sort of grease are you using? are you using the PN damper caps with it? or just right on the knuckle pins?

Tjay
2009.11.25, 11:47 AM
glue down the rear tire lip. That is the best way to get rid of chatter.

Hey Eugene,

The rear tire lip? Which one are you referring to? The edge of the tire? Can you explain or perhaps show us a pic? There's few ways of "minimizing" the chatter and I would like to see how you "get rid" of the chatter. :)

Thanks!

EMU
2009.11.25, 12:38 PM
I dont have a camera, but the edge of the tire, glued down the the wheel. So you dont get any tire peel effect. Which causes the tire to load then all of a sudden unload as it peels from the wheel. Most rear tires, just taping is not enough, you need to glue it down.

I hope my explanation is enough.

Brian, I use a variety of greases. Lately I have been using 3C Ruby lube for the rear, and ATM medium for the front. I dont use PN damper caps, since I use Kyosho plastic or 3Racing alloy knuckles. The grease still works wonders without them.

Cherub1m
2009.11.25, 01:00 PM
Hey Eugene,

The rear tire lip? Which one are you referring to? The edge of the tire? Can you explain or perhaps show us a pic? There's few ways of "minimizing" the chatter and I would like to see how you "get rid" of the chatter. :)

Thanks!

Tjay

What I do to the rear wheels to reduce or eliminate chatter is I put tire tape on the rear rim then glue the tire to the rim then i glue the outside edge (the side facing away from the car) of the tire to the rim I go up the side wall in the rear (sometimes only half way up but never on the flat surface of the tire). Also, I place a very thin layer of ca glue on the inside part (the side facing the center of the car) of the, because that side can also balloon out and cause problems with handling/chatter, I don't even lift the tire to place glue under the tire I just place a little thin layer of glue on the rim and side wall. I am not sure if that is what Eugene was talking about. But this procedure really helped my 98mm AWD I have virtually no chatter unless I hit a bump.

Tjay
2009.11.25, 01:37 PM
I think those that race awd should understand that super glueing the tires to the rim is a must. I though you were referring to something else Eugene...

Tjay
2009.11.25, 03:58 PM
Tjay

What I do to the rear wheels to reduce or eliminate chatter is I put tire tape on the rear rim then glue the tire to the rim then i glue the outside edge (the side facing away from the car) of the tire to the rim I go up the side wall in the rear (sometimes only half way up but never on the flat surface of the tire). Also, I place a very thin layer of ca glue on the inside part (the side facing the center of the car) of the, because that side can also balloon out and cause problems with handling/chatter, I don't even lift the tire to place glue under the tire I just place a little thin layer of glue on the rim and side wall. I am not sure if that is what Eugene was talking about. But this procedure really helped my 98mm AWD I have virtually no chatter unless I hit a bump.

Thanks Philip! I super glue both in and outside of the tire to the wheel but not the sidewall on the rear tires. I just round off the sidewall using fine sandpaper.

EMU
2009.11.25, 04:08 PM
Thats exactly what I was talking about. Also, rounding the sidewalls is a good tip as well.

Davey G
2009.11.25, 04:13 PM
CA on the sidewalls and thick dampening is what calms down the chattering on most AWD cars...

phea
2009.12.01, 12:34 AM
I use kyosho 30/20 combo Front and rear.I noticed that too much CA on the sidewalls on the kyosho 20 rears make my car slide around corners. Although on the fronts are okay.

EMU
2009.12.01, 04:33 AM
You want to glue the rear tire to the rim, but not glue the sidewall as you do the front.

briankstan
2009.12.03, 11:07 AM
I have my AWD running really good now. it is handling very neutral both on and off power now.

We are racing tonight and I'm going to race it. I still have a little prep work to do on the tires, getting them taped, glued and sanded. I didn't want to glue and tape until I found a tire combo that worked. I'll let you know how it goes tonight.

here is my current setup.

Nissan GT-R body.
AWD gold terminal chassis setup at 98mm
PN 94/98 Rear Lower mount.
PN Aluminum universal swing shafts.
2.4ghz board
Atomic Ball diff front and rear
PN 2.0 degree Knuckles front
PN 1.5 degree Knuckles rear.
PN 1.5 degree Rear Toe Bar
PN Bearings
Kyosho 30į treaded fronts
Kyosoh 20į slick rears.
Stock front toe Bar
Front springs PN Pro lowdown Yellow
Rear springs PN Pro lowdown light Blue
PN orange droop spacer front
PN blue droop spacer Rear.
PN Speed AD motor
15 tooth Pinion
31 tooth Longs Spur gear for 98mm.
Nickle taped to front of motor side to offset battery weight.

thanks again everyone for all your help.

briankstan
2009.12.04, 09:52 AM
We'll I was finally able to race the AWD on a bigger track last night, along with other cars on the track as well. I'm very happy to say the it preformed very nicely. I don't have a full time large track that is set all the time (other than the small one in my basement), that combined with setting the track up on cold concrete, it's been in the 30's for highs and they warehouse we race in is only heated while we are there, so the traction that we have is nothing like the traction that I experienced when I have make a couple of trips to California over the last 2 year.

I glued the front side walls of the Kyosho 30's and then installed them just using tire tape. I felt safe doing this as I never have a problem with throwing tires, I also taped the back tires on and rounded the outer wall of the tire with sandpaper.

my car handled very well, We ran a modified class on a 10 minute race. it was me and 2 other cars on the track, both were MR-02's with Pan bodies. I managed to set the fast lap of the night, about .5 seconds faster than my 70 turn stock car. Consistency was good as I also ran the highest lap count of the night, pulling 3 laps more than I had with the MR-02.

A few things I noticed.

1. the back was sliding some, I could probably use slightly more traction on the back of the car. I can probably gain that by going with treaded rear tires rather than the Kyosho 30 slicks. Maybe Kyosho 30 treaded or PN 8's??

2. the car still had a tendency to want to flip, it was manageable but was still there. I'm still going to work on this as there is some added time I could gain if I could push the car harder.

All together I'm very happy with it and the way it handles. I've got just about every tuning option there is for it now so I should be set to do some additional fine tuning. I do want to find some Kyosho AWD diffs for it, but for now the Atomic diffs are working.

A few Questions:

1. Will adding ceramic bearings to the AWD Make much difference?
2. Does the Kyosho Titanium Center shaft with gear work well? I've read of the gears not matching well.

Felix2010
2009.12.04, 10:55 AM
All together I'm very happy with it and the way it handles. I've got just about every tuning option there is for it now so I should be set to do some additional fine tuning. I do want to find some Kyosho AWD diffs for it, but for now the Atomic diffs are working.

A few Questions:

1. Will adding ceramic bearings to the AWD Make much difference?
2. Does the Kyosho Titanium Center shaft with gear work well? I've read of the gears not matching well.

Hey Brian,

Glad to hear your AWD is running how you want it to. I haven't followed this thread, I will check it out after I post, but I would like to give my opinion on the questions you asked:

1.) Will ceramics make a difference? I think they're a good investment, especially for the AWD: [A],Ceramics run better dry than regular steel bearings. "Drying" bearings is a great way to get maximum drivetrain efficiency (Maybe use a tiny drop of ultra-thin quality lube after drying, if you want max longevity - But not absolutely necessary). This is because the ceramic balls will not flat-spot as quickly (If at all) like steel balls will, and running steel bearings without grease hastens the flat-spotting; [B], Ceramics will out-last steel bearings. I've heard some crazy numbers, like ceramics will out-last steel counterparts by 22 fold. The main thing is, you will have ceramics a long time before they will have to be replaced, they should out-last steel bearings to make the initial price-hit worth it in the long run; [C] Since with the MA010 drivetrain smoothness is at such a huge premium, the least rolling resistance is what you should strive for. Ceramics, good quality ceramics at least, will give you a slight edge in this department.
There are people who will disagree with me I'm sure, and no-doubt there are some really-good steel bearing offerings out there. As a matter of fact, I just picked-up 2 pairs of Reflex's 6x10x3 AWD diff bearings to try. But for the central driveshaft, and for the knuckles, I've used ceramics for years. The only steel bearings I really liked a LOT were the Squat "Gold" bearings, but they quickly deteriorate. The performance drop-off happens way sooner than with ceramics.
2.) Do not buy the Kyosho Ti64 center shaft with fixed pinion! It has too much play within the bearings which can cause spur gear skipping in the rear, and yes, the front metal pinion is nowhere as smooth as the stock front pinion.

Also, about the Kyosho Ball Diffs: They are up there on my "Best possible upgrade" list. I ran Atomic ball diffs for a while (The original plastic high-precision ones), and you are right, with some love they can be excellent diffs. But the Kyosho ball diff is the supreme masterpiece - The ring gear is so smooth (Right there will free-up your drivetrain I guarantee it), and the K diffs are just works of art. Highly recommend getting at least one K ball diff (If you run a gear diff up front) or get 2 K ball diffs. They are worth the $100.

Hope this helps:)

EMU
2009.12.04, 01:19 PM
Brian, try rear Kyosho 20 slicks or radials, or ATM 8d rears (if you can find them). It may help the car from wanting to roll. I tried the 30 radials, and the car got a bit too squirmy. It felt like I had too much motor with a Speedy 07bb. Maybe with a 70t, that would be a good option...