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pedrocamp
2010.03.24, 08:45 PM
This thread is for the discussion of High Speed Hobbies Tech and General Rules. Attached are PDFs of the Tech and General Rules. The subject of body and motor rules has already begun on the Schedule thread but let's continue the discussion here.

pedrocamp
2010.03.24, 08:50 PM
Here is the discussion started on the Schedule thread:

are these rules to be the same implemented at the carolina cup in may? also the pan classes allow any 1/28 body, may want to change to any 1/28 pan body.
thanks
Well, first off, I didn't mind and everbody helped... except JAMES! Don't worry, I'll take up the slack.
Actually it is self serving cause I would rather race than discuss rules and schedules while at the track so if we can get it settled here then it's more racing for me.

Now to Chad's question I came up with this:

I guess I should start with what is a "pan" body. I take it as a general term to mean a body in the style of a 1/10th or 1/12th scale scale pan, flat chassis RC car where most of the bodies resemble 1970's Can-Am cars, Lolas, Mclarens, Porsche, etc... As the Can-Am died (because of the tank-engined Porsche 917 basically) the cars morphed into Le Mans Prototype and IMSA/ALMS Prototype cars. Many of the manufacturers of the RC larger scale "pan" car bodies, 1/8th scale nitro included, produce the older Can-Am styled bodies. Some of them started production back in the time of the Can-Am. There has been a trend to more contemporary bodies in the larger scales, Prototype style bodies. This is true in slot car racing too. These contemporary bodies are the basis for our LM class but in fact they could also be called "pan" bodies.
So as far as we are concerned does "pan" body mean a body styled to resemble a 70's Can-Am car, as produced by Atomic and PN? If PN or Atomic produce a more modern Prototype style body and label it a "pan" body, since it is, is it legal for the "pan" class? Polycarbonate (Lexan) bodies are available for the 1/28h scale cars that resemble Can-Am and Prototype cars, are these legal for the "pan" class?
PN and Atomic both have "pan" classes that limit the body choice to their own bodies for their own series, understandably. We want to be more open, but do we allow only these two Can-Am bodies? Do we allow other bodies such as the Rony and LimmetEd polycarbonate bodies? Do we limit the class to Prototype and Can-Am style bodies made of styrene or polycarbonate? Do we just open this unlimited, no minimum weight class to whatever you want to run? That is what it says now. I would imagine most would choose a PN or Atomic body but a polycarbonate body might be a good choice as might a McLaren F1 GT. Our LM class is limited to the more contemporary cars as produced by Kyosho to provide some reasonable parity and purity of class. I suppose I am back to my original question, what is a "pan" class?

I suppose the most popular, go with the current trend approach would be to limit the class to PN or Atomic styrene "pan" bodies. What do you all think? This should be on the Tech and General Rules thread I haven't started yet.

The General Rules should stay the same for the Cup events at HSH.

Hmmm, It looks like you just stated a heavy case for why pan and LM bodies should be run together :D

Ive got a different concern though. It doesnt state anywhere that you can not open the motor cans. It does state that you have to use stock equivilent magnets and brushes. Im going to assume it is legal to open the can, so long as I keep the OM arm, and dont remove/rewind any wire. I will also assume its legal to shim the magnets, adjust the timing, and blance the arm.
Nope, PN cup 70 turn motor. You can change brushes, but no other components. All other parts must be stock.

On your other note, Pan cars are pan cars, The PN and Atomic bodies are not LM nor are they actual real race cars. There is a huge difference in the two types of bodies. The pan bodies are lighter, shorter wheel base, and handle much better. Not to mention ugly. Here at HSH we like things to be realistic, Thats why we run this class.:)

pedrocamp
2010.03.24, 09:00 PM
Should opening the can and servicing the components be legal? Can arms or magnets be swapped from one 70T motor to another? Is the shimming and balancing Landon mentioned legal? Should we have the "don't open the can" rule that MBMZR has?

On the other note, should the Pan Stock class allow only PN and Atomic Pan bodies? I do think we should leave our LM class as-is.

kwsmith29
2010.03.24, 09:39 PM
How do you tell if a can has been opened? I think all parts should remain stock, with the exception of the brushes. It would nice if there was a trust factor with parts, but we're racers and everyone is looking for an advantage. :D

We can do a visual inspection on cans? Yes, but lets face facts. If your good, awe hell even if your not good you can take one of these things apart and put it back together with out anyone being able to tell. Hell I've seen some that look like crap out of the bag. I had one in a package from a vendor that was half way apart. This is an age old problem for spec motor races. The only fixes are hand out motors or a claim rule. Hand out motors are probly to expensive to supply or to hard to get enough for what we are doing. Maybe a claim rule, $15 enforced at the end of the main? It's a tough call. Anybody have any other ideas.

I dont care what bodies run with pan stock. If your not running a pan body I think your at a disadvantage.

I suggested The Pan Stock class for our race because the guys at the beach run that class.

I think our LM Class is the most competive and most fun class we run. I belive if we open it to Pan bodies it will kill the scale apperence and will add a definate advantage to the Pan bodies.

There you go,
Wade

chad508
2010.03.24, 11:05 PM
as far as pan having and advantage over lm, i do not believe this to be true. at our event i qualified 2nd in super stock with a 102mm sauber, only tenths behind eric in a pan car and other behind me in pans. all bodies have there good and bad points. on that note i had rather see the classes ran separate just for the authenticity. now for motors like landon said you can tune the motor and only use stock parts. balance the stock arm, shim the mags, adjust the timing, and truing the comm change nothing as far as stock parts, but you can make a 70 turn as fast if not faster than a 50 turn with a little time. if this is not allowed what is the point in allowing the can to be opened?

kwsmith29
2010.03.25, 12:49 AM
Your 100% right, with all that work you can make a 70 turn that fast. I'm not saying the can should be open, but all parts should be stock and in stock configuration. That means no rewinding, pattern winding, less winds, no balancing, shiming, changing of timing, or anything along those lines. All of this can be checked very easly with a visual inspection. We just need honest racers. :rolleyes:

I'm telling ya claim rule.....:cool:

As far as the bodys go. There is a weight advantage(Mazda 42.4gms, 962 48.6 gms, Sauber 39.4gms, and VDS II 37.4 gms), and to be honest we could argue all night about this. But you hit the nail on the head. It's all about the realistic look for us. I don't belive I'm speaking out of turn. We here at HSH voted on the body rules back when this class started, and LM won. We love this class. Very competive and close racing every week, ask Eric. We just have a ball with it.

Wade

hpgod
2010.03.25, 08:18 AM
Timing can be changed without opening the can :)

Any old school 80s rc probably knows how.

hrdrvr
2010.03.25, 09:13 AM
Is the shimming and balancing Landon mentioned legal? Should we have the "don't open the can" rule that MBMZR has?

Pedro, I think you need to have a "dont open the can rule". Everything is based on honesty, I agree. I dont go around policing motors at our track, or our events. Have you guys ever had me approach y'all at one of our events and question your motor? It does all come down to honesty, but if I honestly tune my motor to the max within the confines of your motor rules, the motor would be illegal at our races. This discussion says that timing changes, shimming, and any "inner-motor adjustments" are frowned upon, but you better put it in writing if you dont want some one doing it.

At the last race y'all had up there I was baffled that Rodney was so much faster than I was (Im tlaking straight line, not tighter lines or cleaner running). I didnt jump the gun and think he was cheating, but I did ask Pedro for some clarity of y'alls motor rules thinking I must be missing something. There is no way he is doing the same things Im doing and getting his motor that much faster than mine in a straight line. Pedro said the rules didnt say anything about not opening your can, just that you have to use stock parts if you do open it to replace anything. My thought was, Im not going to change any parts at all, Im just going to open it up next time, and maximize the performance of the parts that are there. Now, its not clear to me if this is illegal or not. If I go by the written rules though, it is not illegal, and therefore I will probably have a faster motor next time Im racing at HS.

Now, I will be honest about it, and tell any one who asks what I did to achieve what I did. Im always open with my tuning information, as its my goal for the people I race with on a regular basis (ths includes all of y'all) to get as fast as possible within the confines of the rules. Thats the only we will progress further than what the current fast guys are.

If I get lapped by Rodney two times again, it wont be because of lack of power, lol. :D


On the other note, should the Pan Stock class allow only PN and Atomic Pan bodies? I do think we should leave our LM class as-is.

As far as the pan bodies go, do what y'all want with that. We have already talked it out plenty, and you guys have come up with your thoughts, and decisions on the matter. I dont think we need to go any further with it. We run pan and LM together, and both of them get wins at our races. The only reason I mentioned it at all was because I got a kick out of your history lesson. Pan cars and real scale LM bodies have the same origins :D We will continue to run them together at our club races and events. If you guys think pans are that much better, just have a pan car next time you come down here to race the super stock class, simple.


How do you tell if a can has been opened? I think all parts should remain stock, with the exception of the brushes. It would nice if there was a trust factor with parts, but we're racers and everyone is looking for an advantage. :D

We can do a visual inspection on cans?


It is all based on honesty. Id rather the guys say "I honestly didnt open the motor", then to say "I honestly opened the motor, but I didnt do anything while I had it open". We write our rules to try and limit the temptation, and to also aid in controling/policing them. Sure some one who is good could open a motor, and I may not be able to catch them. Ive got a far better chance at telling wether the can is open than I do at telling if he unwinded 15 winds off of anb open one, or shimmed the magnets, or the arm, or adjusted the timing. I have no chance at telling if he did these things at a glance.

The way I clarify our motor rule is by this statement. "If your motor is ridiculously fast, and it looks like it has been opened, it is subject to disqualification." If your motor fits this statement, brake in a different one, and dont run the one that "looks like it has been opened". The guy who wants to hide the fact that they opened it, is going to hide it, and yes hes going to have an advantage. The rules are in place to keep the honest people honest, and to atleast have a chance at catching the dishonest ones. Once you say the motor can be opened, you have no shot at catching the dishonest ones, IMO.


if this is not allowed what is the point in allowing the can to be opened?

This isnt my exact point, but it is a very valid question. What could any one do inside a motor that would be legal?


That means no rewinding, pattern winding, less winds, no balancing, shiming, changing of timing, or anything along those lines. All of this can be checked very easly with a visual inspection. We just need honest racers. :rolleyes:

I'm telling ya claim rule.....:cool:

Wade

Im a lot less experienced than most every one taking part in this conversation, so forgive my ignorance on the next few questions :D

How can a visual inspection quickly show the winds on the arm, the timing, and wether the arm has been shimmed?

FWIW, I think weve got honest racers in both of our groups. I have no trust issues at all with any of the racers at y'alls club. There have been some things Ive thought twice about with some of our own racers, but luckily I havent seen anything at any events, and havent felt the need to step in and police. We are all pretty open with our "secrets", and we are all on a pretty level playing field. That makes a tiny power upgrade very important to final placement at races, and I dont want a disadvantage (however slight) against the top guys at y'alls track.


Timing can be changed without opening the can :)

Any old school 80s rc probably knows how.

You are probably right, and timing can be changed without opening the can. Could you put the arm on a machine, and get the timing perfect with it mounted within the end bell on the can? Probably not. Would it be worth it to try without the aid of machines? Maybe, but you risk lessening the performance without the added benefit of guages, and inspectios without the can. Also, it has to be much easier to adjust the arm alone, so there are still huge benefits in adjusting the timing with the end bell off.

kwsmith29
2010.03.25, 10:29 AM
To quote Landon:The way I clarify our motor rule is by this statement. "If your motor is ridiculously fast, and it looks like it has been opened, it is subject to disqualification."

I belive this statement should be added to our rules for CC races. But who determins if a motor been apart or looks to have been apart? Do we pick someone to look at each event or in each situation where there is a ridiculously fast motor. Maybe we need one or two from each group(MBMZR & HSH) appointed to do this. I'm not sure.

But, I'm telling you there are only two ways to police this matter without any doubt; One is to have hand out motors the other is institute a claim rule for the Cup races. If your not cheating and don't have a bunch of time or money in your 70 turn $15.00 will easily pay for a replacement.

Maybe we need to get together and make a set of Carolina Cup Rules to cover all of us at one of these events. The two gruops are not that far apart. We just need a little tweaking to make everyone happy.

hrdrvr
2010.03.25, 11:52 AM
But who determins if a motor been apart or looks to have been apart?

In the past I have put myself in he position to make the call. The fact that I know Im honest was good enough for me. Over the last few years though, Ive moved up the ranks, and generally race for some top finishes. I don't want to be the authority if some one else questions my winning motor, so recently Ive been appointing a capable person(s) at each event. Serrano did it for the last cup race, Tannie did the enduro, and Mike and Andy teamed up to take care of the PN race last year. Ive been taking it event by event, but if we can come up with some sort of a rules committee, or tech committee between the two groups, Im all for it. I think it would be extra good, as both groups would have representation regardless of the location of the event.

I dont think we need to have a meeting about the CCC races, just look over my rules and implement them :D Just kidding. I do think its obvious that we should be on the same page with the cup races as its a point series between the two groups. To take that a bit further, I look at you guys as an extension of our regular group of local racers. From this perspective it would be beneficial to both groups to come to some sort of uniformity of rules between them. I am majorly open minded in regards to rules, and as long as my opinion is heard, and it seems that the group makes the logical decision for the greater good of progressing our events/clubs, then Im game for pretty much anything.

FWIW, my goal in setting up rules is to make our group as competitive as it can be when our members travel to other tracks. By adopting this mindset that we are shooting for whatever the "norm" is nationally, I think we also make our events more appealing to other travelers. In the end though the fact of the matter is, MBMZR is the biggest supporter of MBMZR events. HSH is the biggest supporter of HSH events, and neither club needs to make rules that make club racing or localized events harder to police or less appealing to its locals. On the other hand, the more clubs who adopt these more generalized rules, the more likely they will be competitive outside of their clubs, and the more uniform rules at club level events will be.


Oh, and one more thing, could you describe the "motor claim rule" you keep referring to? I think Ive got an idea about what you are talking about, but have never really been exposed to anything like that.

kwsmith29
2010.03.25, 12:31 PM
My experience with claim rules has been in slot cars racing. It a very simple deal. To claim a motor you must be in that main. Example; Only an Amain racer could claim a motor form another a main racer, same for B, C, and so on. All claims are made at the end of each main, and the motor is surrendered. If the driver refuses to surrender the motor he is not allowed to compete any more. Very simple and stright forward. $15.00 is more than fair, that will cover a new motor and brushes. Or, maybe it needs to be $20.00. I'm open.

Now this claim rule dose not mean we don't look at ridiculously fast motors and DQ them.

hpgod
2010.03.25, 12:57 PM
landon
I'lll show you how to move the stack on a closed endbell motor at the enduro.
I'll bring a 70t motor I just wore out this week with me to the enduro

No fancy tools are needed and it only takes a few second. Its was very common in the old days of 1/10 1/12 scale to blow a motor due to over timing. Its definately not precise but it is each to measure optimum timing(peak no load current is max) lower timing= more torque higher more rpm. it was 20-25 degree timing its been a few year so dont hold me to the exact number. people ran up to 45 degree motors then in onroad. too high of timing and the motor will overheat. There is a limit on the amount you can more a stck though (wire slack) from the winging to the comm.

I use to due to my practice kyosho stock motors so i was used to runnign at a higher speed then stock.

kwsmith29
2010.03.25, 01:24 PM
I know exactly what your talking about. Easily done, but like you said you do run a risk.

hrdrvr
2010.03.25, 01:38 PM
Wade, The motor claim rule sounds good to me. I think $15 is fair enough, but Im game for $20 if thats what the majority decides. $15 is what 843 charged for a new motor that was broken in. Thats the price I stuck with (as I provide the service as well), so that seems like the legit pricing for me.

I agree that it doesnt negate the other motor rules, and we should try and hold people to not opening the cans at all.


Art, I would like to learn how to do it without removing the end bell. Id like to know how some one achieves it so I can be on the look out for fowl play :D I still stick with the idea that its harder and more risky with the end bell mounted, and its more effective with the arm removed from the can. Even though it can be done, it would still limit the people trying it if we keep the motor sealed.

cosmicsoul
2010.03.25, 02:38 PM
Handout motors! Include them in the cost of the entry fee. Why not just conform to the rules PN uses?

Or have an open can seventy turn rule with out changing winds on the armature or magnets.

Or better yet an outlaw 70 turn class.

chad508
2010.03.25, 02:45 PM
im with jay. make it simple. either no open cans are allow open cans and all parts must be stock parts. to have the rules vag will only lead to people trying things. im not opposed to allowing this i just want it in are not in the rules so when i do something no one can say i broke a rules. also on a side note, weight rules. i know at the diablo james was allowed to pick up parts that fell off his body in the f1 race to make weight when the race was over. is this a normal rule that applies to all classes? just want to know how loose to leave my screws and glue. j/k of course

hrdrvr
2010.03.25, 03:10 PM
Handout motors! Include them in the cost of the entry fee. Why not just conform to the rules PN uses?

Or have an open can seventy turn rule with out changing winds on the armature or magnets.

Or better yet an outlaw 70 turn class.

The PN rules are written to benefit PN more than other manufacturers. That's reason enough for me not to go by it totally. Also, they are setting rules for a World wide event. We don't need the same policing to be necessary at our regional and local events, IMO. The rules can be loosely based on the PN ones, but they need to be far more simple, and they don't need to benefit one manufacturer over the other.

Hand-out motors are definitely the way to go for fairness. For simplicity for race hosts, I don't think its the best thing. 70t motors are cheap, but they aren't free. Having the cost offset in the race fee only covers so much. How about the ones left on the shelf after the event? For HS it might not be a big deal, but I don't have the income to have a hundred dollars worth of 70t motors hanging on a peg hook. Then, what happens when the unthinkable happens and we run out of hand-outs before all the racers are registered? The fact that we run multiple 70t classes at our events, and they are the ones that gain the most participation makes it even more of a problem.

We've got an outlaw 70t class. Its called mod :D


im with jay. make it simple. either no open cans are allow open cans and all parts must be stock parts. to have the rules vag will only lead to people trying things. im not opposed to allowing this i just want it in are not in the rules so when i do something no one can say i broke a rules. also on a side note, weight rules. i know at the diablo james was allowed to pick up parts that fell off his body in the f1 race to make weight when the race was over. is this a normal rule that applies to all classes? just want to know how loose to leave my screws and glue. j/k of course

What is more simple than, "don't open the can"? I guess saying anything goes :D

I do agree that either way will be fine. We just need to clarify which way to go.

I think weight rules need to be upheld after the run...especially when you are asking guys to add 10-15g of weight to make the minimum. Dropping weight rules altogether would be the most simple thing IMO.

That brings me up a question to though. Are any of you guys running MR03s in LM class? What are you doing to get weight up? Ive got a C9, and I'm about 18 grams under weight. Adding a gram or two is easy, but I could run a 5th cell and still be underweight, lol.

kromie101
2010.03.26, 09:06 AM
man there is just to much typing:D. i can't even read all of that:p. do you know how long it would take me to type like you guys.:p. just make it simple. if someone is that much faster,take a look at his motor and thats that. i will show you mine with no problem;):p:D. cya soon

chad508
2010.04.12, 11:32 PM
just wondering were we stand on the motor rules for the cc race. not sure if anything was ever set in stone.

pedrocamp
2010.04.13, 05:35 AM
Chad, after MUCH discussion it looks like we will likely go with something like this:

Motor Specification
Only 2009 version of PNWC 70 Turn Official Stock Motor (PN Part #110670) allowed.
The PN 70T can may not be opened; the end bell may not be removed. All internal parts must remain stock.
Only the PN 70T Carbon brush (Atomic Part#AR008) or Carbon Silver brush (PN Part#10CR50) may be used. The brush spring must snap into the end bell receivers in the original location and orientation. No material may be added or removed from the brush spring.

We are also writing up some claim rules. I have been discussing them with Landon and the guys here. I will post after we finish a couple of details then I would like your comments.

Hope to see you in May!

DJ Rattray
2011.02.21, 06:12 PM
can i run li-po batteries?

pedrocamp
2011.02.21, 06:30 PM
Not in the stock classes, mod classes OK.

By the way the above motor rules are not current, see the 2011 Motor Rules Thread.

DJ Rattray
2011.02.21, 09:11 PM
cool good to know.