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Psyfron
2010.03.30, 06:24 AM
I've been lurking in the shadows for quite some time and have noticed 1 major thing about dudes that are driving mini-zs out side of japan... (no i'm not Japanese but i do live in Japan)

it seems like you guys don't use kyosho hop-up parts, and I'd like to know why...

i hear people raving about the quality of 3racing and atomic (eg. everyone uses the atomic diffs) why? are they better than the kyosho?
well Cristian Tabush says that the atomic arn't as good as the kyosho...

Cristian Tabush says, "Courtesy of RC Atomic in Hong Kong, I got my hands on a couple of their new T.A.R. differentials. These diffs are almost up to par with Kyosho as far as quality from the package, but still leave FAR too much to be desired. "

if the kyosho are better, why not use them? i don't get it?
is because the atomic are easier to adjust?
are the kyosho too expensive?

as for 3 racing no one here will use them because the build quality just isn't there... oval shaped spur gears for example... useless!
maybe you guys get different shipments to us??

i used the atomic carbon center shaft once and i split it right down the middle using a regular x-speed motor with standard fets...

ive never seen a car made totally of kyosho parts... (outside of Japan)
please tell me why...

addicted
2010.03.30, 07:06 AM
they're extremely expensive to be honest, at least here in the UK.
for alot of the items, you'll be paying twice the price, eg for a motor heatsink on the awd, and diff's etc.

Psyfron
2010.03.30, 07:08 AM
so your saying if money was not an issue you would use Kyosho?

dvsstrike
2010.03.30, 07:16 AM
i use kyosho ball diffs inthe awd. 2wd i use the pn. most kyosho parts are crazy expensive. Each Manufacture has its pluses and minuses. so everyone use the best of all products.

addicted
2010.03.30, 07:43 AM
so your saying if money was not an issue you would use Kyosho?

hell yea, the kyosho diff's at least for both awd & 02, but as said above, each manufacturer has their + and -'s.

z3zinho
2010.03.30, 07:46 AM
Although kyosho parts usually have great quality sometimes their design is not the best, or they are designed with stock/x-speed speed in mind. And then of course there is the price.

Take for example the AWD diff. A kyosho diff is 53$, then you would have to buy the delrin outdrives from RR, otherwise the diff won't last long.

As a team reflex driver I'm not tied to a specific brand so I use what I think is better, and if you look at other top drivers that aren't PN or Atomic drivers I believe you will see some Kyosho parts around. ;)

For example on my 2wd you can find this parts from kyosho
Tie rods
Hidraulic top shock (the yelow one)
Carbon or Fiberglass T plates if running 94mm
SS King Pins
Wheel Nuts
Ball diff

So in the end I think it comes down to availability, price and funcionality. And sometimes there are better alternatives then kyosho ;)

Psyfron
2010.03.30, 07:59 AM
$53??? holy molly!
i get paid in yen so i dont really see the difference...
but i can understand where you're coming from..

ive never even seen a car with aftermarket fets here... we all run x speed.. so ive never seen a out drive wear out... some of the japanese (and im just talking about local guys) are so particular they will buy 5 x speed motors, run them in, then pick the best one to drive with... (some people then throw the other 4 motors in the trash)

addicted
2010.03.30, 08:55 AM
$53??? holy molly!
i get paid in yen so i dont really see the difference...
but i can understand where you're coming from..

ive never even seen a car with aftermarket fets here... we all run x speed.. so ive never seen a out drive wear out... some of the japanese (and im just talking about local guys) are so particular they will buy 5 x speed motors, run them in, then pick the best one to drive with... (some people then throw the other 4 motors in the trash)

you're lucky it's that cheap then, 5 x-speed motors here would be a fair bit of money lol :p

how about starting up your own shop with kyosho bits and then export it to us @ the good prices :P

Psyfron
2010.03.30, 10:57 AM
i guess i could....??...

Bodom
2010.03.30, 04:10 PM
I don't buy kyosho upgrade parts only because of the high price.
I own X-Speed V, camber knuckle set and tie rod set only because of the low
price :)

Eman
2010.03.30, 04:52 PM
The only downside to Kyosho parts is the price. The quality is top notch. The Atomic composite diffs are good and inexpensive. For what my friends and I do they fit the bill perfectly. As for 3 Racing I can only recommend the Heavy Duty Universal Swing Shaft. Everything else I've tried from 3 Racing required "adjusting". The companies I give most of money to are:
1.) PN Racing
2.) Atomic
3.) Kyosho
In that order. Kyosho parts are great if you have the means or are racing for a championship.

Action B
2010.03.30, 05:46 PM
As for 3 Racing I can only recommend the Heavy Duty Universal Swing Shaft. Everything else I've tried from 3 Racing required "adjusting".

They are strong but for the rotating weight they are I'll take my chances with the light stock ones.

Eman
2010.03.30, 05:55 PM
Yeah they are heavier, but there is very little play. Compared to Atomic aluminum or even their titanium ones. I've rebuilt many axles and even started using diff lube during re-assembly to no avail. I haven't tried Kyosho axles as much as I would like to. $20 a pair is too much.

Psyfron
2010.03.30, 07:05 PM
ive snaped a few of the kyosho ones.. but im beginning to think i need to rebuild the car more often (1 set of tyres, 1 rebuild) just to make sure all the lubrication is up to par.
otherwise thos MR-02 just keep pulling away.. and now i got the MR-03 to deal with...



another question i have for you guys is i havent seen anyone cutting groves in the chassis to make it lighter... i hear people adding weight but to me that sounds crazy..ill be attacking the car with a rotory tool at least once before i start going the other way...
by the sounds of it though i better not post pictures... you guys will be screaming "NOOO" at the screen about the price of the parts i have just cut up... hahahaha

Action B
2010.03.30, 09:11 PM
ive snaped a few of the kyosho ones.. but im beginning to think i need to rebuild the car more often (1 set of tyres, 1 rebuild) just to make sure all the lubrication is up to par.
otherwise thos MR-02 just keep pulling away.. and now i got the MR-03 to deal with...



another question i have for you guys is i havent seen anyone cutting groves in the chassis to make it lighter... i hear people adding weight but to me that sounds crazy..ill be attacking the car with a rotory tool at least once before i start going the other way...
by the sounds of it though i better not post pictures... you guys will be screaming "NOOO" at the screen about the price of the parts i have just cut up... hahahaha

THANK YOU! YES! I also feel it is absolutely ridiculous to add weight to the MA-010.

kyoshosan
2010.03.30, 09:25 PM
Psyfron,

I found your story very interesting, i mean, to know how you guys race in Japan. I'd love to hear more, and yes, please post the pictures as well as some nice hiddne shops in Japan were we can find mini-z treasures :-)

Another question is, are you guys using the route246 parts as well ?

Thanks,

herman
2010.03.30, 11:55 PM
psyfron....

interesting observation... i got to see only one track when i had the chance to visit japan
click here to read my experience at ----> ars circuit (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21403&highlight=ars+japan)

overall it was an experience i will never foget... :D
most of the racers use kyosho parts... i didn't see any third party hop ups on anybody's car... the shop at the track didn't carry any other optional parts except for kyosho

i was very fortunate to have raced with them... (lucky too... showed up on a friday, and little did i know, friday's are usually race days - just a simple club race to my knowledge) :D having competition with other cars which can use any kyosho optional part is a concept that i liked best... it enables you to choose what you want (so long as its a kyosho part)...

it's kind of a spec race in that sense... where skill plays a huge part...
knowing that everybody else has access to the same kysosho optional part...
that way nobody can put the blame on... er parts... ie. bec he had a special motor mount (not readily available to everybody)... or he had a special motor (also not readily available to everybody)... suspension... etc... etc...

the field is somewhat equalized in the sense that there is no unfair advantage of one driver over another driver since everybody has an equal chance of obtaining a particular kyosho part that is readily available to all... i beleive it's an honest system... hope i'm making sense...

what track do you go to and what are their rules pertaining to parts? some parts in japan i know of are square, tagu, eagle... there might be some more but that's all i can think of at the moment... what other stuff/parts do they go for?

kyosho parts are top quality... and sometimes it comes at a price... other products from pn and atomic offer parts that are quite unique...
i.e. the sas... the disc damper system (kyosho later came out with their own version)... the upper and lower aluminum tower bar (also a conversion allowing mr02 chassis to have the front track width of the mr015... emu's breakthrough version of having the same upper and lower aluminum tower bar on a mr015 converting the chassis to accommodate the mr02 front track width... reflex racing came out with their extra long kingpins for the mr03... all of these are quite unique innovations...

thanks again for your input... :D

herman
2010.03.31, 12:06 AM
kysohsosan...

click and read my kyosho mini-z experience - tokyo, japan in my signature... :D

kyoshosan
2010.03.31, 10:42 AM
Herman,

I've already read all your stories :-) They are very nice and rich in pictures :-) Thanks for sharing them with us.

herman
2010.03.31, 11:09 AM
thanks... as always... more than happy to share... :D

Psyfron
2010.04.01, 08:08 AM
wow thats a lot of questions.... this rant is gunna be huge...

kyoshosan: PERHAPS you have misunderstood about the way we race... Maybe not but im not sure so ill clarify... We are not forced to use Kyosho and money is no object... That pretty much sums it up..
But having said that quality is expected!
To say anymore on that is just going to be my opinion... So here it is.. If i buy an "expencive" kyosho part, what do i get? A part that fits, a part that works well and does what its supposed to do.. If i buy a part from a different company then to me its a gamble.. Maybe i have to buy 2 of them because the first one didnt fit right, didnt work or broke easily. (I have been known to modify kyosho parts to try and make them "BETTER", but they are always good out of the box.)
Id rather spend my money once on a good part i know and can trust. And im pretty sure i speak for most of the Japanese when i say that. (Although i doubt they would admit it)

Now i have bought / tried all the other companies i can get here (I'm not bound to kyosho by rule...) Christian Tabush wrote the "how to build a fast car tut." i read it and decided to try some of the option parts he used (the ones i could get anyways) on those parts i found the quality to be rubbish and have thrown them all away swearing at the company "f#$%ing 3 Racing!" "stupid bloody Atomic SH#$!".

but like i said it IS possible you guys get a different batch to us and the quality is higher there. however i have seen people saying they almost always need to ADJUST their parts out of the box... so whats that tell you?

Brands of parts i can get:
Kyosho
3 racing
gpm
atomic
square
tagu
eagle
route246
top cad
and some others i forget...

Brands of parts i know i cant get.
reflex
pn

ok pictures of where i drive.... to be honest its nothing special just a flat carpet surface with wood sticks screwed down to make the course... dosnt even have a lap timer or computer (when im not there.. hehhe) but its close to my house and free so it works for me!
there is a nice place close by but its open hours suck for me... 1500yen so like $16-$17, 6pm-12pm on a friday, saturday and sunday... but i guess i should go there more often... they have like 5 tracks, 3 of the proper kyosho foam tracks and 2 carpet tracks....

there are fully groomed tracks with banked turns and stuff around but they are far away and cost money 300yen $4-$5 for 15mins...

do we use route246??...... well now that i think about it i dont know anyone who does...i know a guy who collects the R32 shells (has the all)
i have heard their parts are just a repackaged 3racing junk but i find that hard to believe because i bought the disk damper and shock set for my MR-03 LM and the parts didnt need "adjusting"...

hidden shops.... hmmmm

**** this is a long post...

herman: one of your main points was exactly right, using all the same parts keeps us all equal... i do like that...
But i can tell you that we are not all equal.... more on that later....

as far as racing rules go... i dont really know because i dont race... i cant... im not good at it... i cant handle the pressure...

i bought myself a kyosho lap timer, a super mini pc and a bunch of the ic tags and i put down times when no one else is at the track... thats what i find fun... im trying to beat myself not someone else.

i do however know the Japanese people quite well and i know what MOST OF THEM are like... if you look at the rules for the kyosho cup... that will probably be the same rules all over the country (except maybe around osaka, they are a little different down there... in a good way)

i have been in 2 comps... the 1st comp i went in was at the kyosho shop in Omotesando in Tokyo, grip event... they pretty much only had 2 catagories.. 1st was the store supplied cars and regular batteries to everyone and then we raced.
2nd was "mod cars" you could use your own car but it had to use the x-speed motor and no added fets. every car was inspected before and after the race....
the prize was tickets to the gt500 race at fuji speedway...

HAHAHA i just checked the link you added to the post you made about ars and then SaiTam started talking about the Kyosho comp he went to...
He took 2 photos of the chick handing out the prizes to the winners...
He must have taken those photos over my shoulder! i was standing right there! HAHAHA

now back to the reasons we are not equal...
1. when you see guys throwing away NEW x speed motors because they dont spin as freely or whatever you realize it still comes down to money.. having said that though...
2. some people are talented! i swaped cars with that guy for an afternoon and he THRASHED me with my own car... hahaha so in his case he just knows the car so well it would piss him off if it wasnt "feeling" as fast as it could be.
3. some dudes, will always have excuses... and this is in no way an attack on SaiTam because i know lots of guys like this and really they dont bother me I did the the Super GT Time attack challege in Kyosho shop. It was a waste of my money and time with their rental. I think I had a good chance of winning if I had my cars with me while I was there.
now i know the guys he raced against 3 of them used to go to that track all day saturday and sunday every week... and 1 of them holds the track record. they didnt win. Now APPARENTLY the guy who won was a dude who was at that time traveling round Japan trying to win every contest in that year... some pro? or something...
so SaiTam is saying that skill and track knowledge count for nothing and blames the rental car for not having a chance.
The rental car is what made it equal....
i would like to know what day he qualified though if he reads this...

More info on that comp.
I didnt race on the day... i just watched...
to enter that comp you had to qualify... you had a week to qualify...
if you set the fastest time around the track of the day ON any day of the week.
then you could compete in the main events on the sunday..
so in SaiTam's group there should have been 6 other guys.. 1 for each day of the week.
and the same in the other catagories...
Why didnt i compete on the day? i set the fastest lap on wednesday, my only day off work. Manager of the store congratuated me <a href="attachment.php?attachmentid=23377&amp;d=1193385070" target="_blank"> he's the dude on the right wearing a white shirt standing next to the chick reading out the winners</a> . the time was quick! i was the second fastest qualifier.
Then this dude i know stolls in, hits the track and bitch slaps my time! no one could believe it..
i tried a second time to reclaim the win but just couldnt do it..
day ended, store closed and i worked thursday - saturday.
end of story..
except i was talking to the manager on sunday and he said for the whole week i was the 3rd fastest qualifier... ****... pitty i had to work hahah

2nd comp was a drift comp... In that comp, no rules..

You spoke of the innovation of some of these companies... Like reflex and atomic...
I've been watching reflex for a while and i really like what they do... I'd love to test some stuff but i cant get my hands on any of it because i don't like net shopping...

As for atomic... Again from my experience the quality isn't there... I bought the carbon center shaft that split and a bunch of (delrin i think they were) gears for the front of the shaft... Not a single one in the packet was round enough to use. So after that i wasn't going to gamble my money on a sas or anything else...

End of rant

Psyfron
2010.04.01, 08:14 AM
sorry here's the link i messed up in the previous post (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=23377&d=1193385070)

kyoshosan
2010.04.01, 08:26 AM
Psyfron,

I didn't understood this:

"kyoshosan: PERHAPS you have misunderstood about the way we race... Maybe not but im not sure so ill clarify... We are not forced to use Kyosho and money is no object... That pretty much sums it up.."

Where in my post you saw I thought that ? :-) maybe someonelse ? I understood since the begining that you guys raced kyosho because of quality and also because parts were not expensive for you in Japan. I'm a kyosho fan as you can see on my nickname and on my blog. I agree 100% with what you said that kyosho parts are the best, but also agree with everybody else that they are expensive outside of Japan.

Don't take me wrong here, i loved your post :-)

Cheers :-)

ub0211042
2010.04.01, 09:43 AM
i think most ppl will support their countries brand, for example Japan will choose Kyosho's brand over the others and HK ppl will go for atomic most of the time...US = PN ..... :)

Psyfron
2010.04.01, 10:27 AM
i think most ppl will support their countries brand, for example Japan will choose Kyosho's brand over the others and HK ppl will go for atomic most of the time...US = PN ..... :)

I'm not Japanese.. I'm Australian...

Psyfron,

I didn't understood this:

"kyoshosan: PERHAPS you have misunderstood about the way we race... Maybe not but im not sure so ill clarify... We are not forced to use Kyosho and money is no object... That pretty much sums it up.."

Where in my post you saw I thought that ? :-) maybe someonelse ? I understood since the begining that you guys raced kyosho because of quality and also because parts were not expensive for you in Japan. I'm a kyosho fan as you can see on my nickname and on my blog. I agree 100% with what you said that kyosho parts are the best, but also agree with everybody else that they are expensive outside of Japan.

Don't take me wrong here, i loved your post :-)

Cheers :-)


i just thought that over the different posts my i never stated it clearly... after re-reading it, that comment didn't need to be directed at you, it was just a general comment for those that are interested..
sorry for the confusion..:o

kyoshosan
2010.04.01, 10:31 AM
Psyfron,

No worries mate :-) just don't forget to post the pictures of you car (the one with the holes) :-)

Cheers :-)

hrdrvr
2010.04.01, 12:12 PM
i think most ppl will support their countries brand, for example Japan will choose Kyosho's brand over the others and HK ppl will go for atomic most of the time...US = PN ..... :)

I think this statement is backwards, but has some merit. I think it would be more correct if it read "the manufacturers support their country of origin".

ub0211042
2010.04.01, 12:15 PM
I think this statement is backwards, but has some merit. I think it would be more correct if it read "the manufacturers support their country of origin".

yeap...works that way better :)

Psyfron
2010.04.01, 06:31 PM
Psyfron,

No worries mate :-) just don't forget to post the pictures of you car (the one with the holes) :-)

Cheers :-)

The car with the holes wont happen for at least 2 weeks because I'm off to Bali tomorrow morning!! yay:D
Also gotta find the scales i want...

herman
2010.04.04, 11:32 PM
herman: one of your main points was exactly right, using all the same parts keeps us all equal... i do like that...
But i can tell you that we are not all equal....

1. when you see guys throwing away NEW x speed motors because they dont spin as freely or whatever you realize it still comes down to money.. having said that though...
2. some people are talented! i swaped cars with that guy for an afternoon and he THRASHED me with my own car... hahaha so in his case he just knows the car so well it would piss him off if it wasnt "feeling" as fast as it could be.
3. some dudes, will always have excuses... and this is in no way an attack on SaiTam because i know lots of guys like this and really they dont bother me

thanks for sharing... what i meant when i stated that we are equal, was equal in terms of the playing field since everybody has an equal opportunity to get his hands on any kyosho option part... with nobody having an unfair advantage over another (in terms of parts)...

and yes we're not equal based on factors that you mentioned... :D
the biggest factor i believe is #2... (what you call talent, i call skill :D)... no amount of money can possibly buy skill... it's what's in you... it's what you develop... it's a talent... you will probably have to work hard at it and practice and practice and practice... and even with enough practice, this does not guarantee that you will have it... as you might still not have it (talent / skill)... in this sense i believe that there are different degrees of talent &/or skill... :D

the 1st comp i went in was at the kyosho shop in Omotesando in Tokyo, grip event... they pretty much only had 2 catagories.. 1st was the store supplied cars and regular batteries to everyone and then we raced.
2nd was "mod cars" you could use your own car but it had to use the x-speed motor and no added fets. every car was inspected before and after the race....
the prize was tickets to the gt500 race at fuji speedway...


the example you gave, i really like the format for the first category... store supplied car... everybody gets to drive it... so the winner is guy who has the greatest talent / driving skill... :D

second category is great too since it enables you to modify your car to your liking (using only kyosho option parts)... but again in the end, its still the guy who has the greatest talent / driving skill who will win... :D

thanks again for sharing... :D

can you post some pics of some car set ups and tracks you've been to?

Skv012a
2010.04.05, 01:11 PM
So in the end I think it comes down to availability, price and funcionality. And sometimes there are better alternatives then kyosho ;)

I'm with you there as are quite a few of us here. This thread was an interesting read since I didn't have as much info on the ichiban's style of racing Zs.

Psyfron
2010.04.16, 08:51 PM
many requests for pictures...

ok next time im out ill take the camera..

CedMan
2010.05.04, 03:23 PM
I ran all kyosho parts on my MA010, they are just better, I have had my share of parts from PN and Atomic and at the end I always go back to a pure kyosho setup, I have more fun with them :)

J-Milz
2010.07.15, 06:10 PM
When is Kyosho releasing their new AWD rear end? The AWD classes seem to be dying, since the 03's came out.