PDA

View Full Version : Inner Tube Damper Set for F1 (rear) MFW15 ?


hobbycar
2010.03.30, 08:26 PM
I was just looking through parts on the Kyosho site and found this:

Inner Tube Damper Set (rear) MFW15 (http://www.kyosho.com/eng/products/rc/np0908.html)
Delivers improved damper effectiveness on the rear suspension and improved traction when cornering.
*for MINI-Z FORMULA MF-010

Available in Aug 2009

http://www.kyosho.com/jpn/products/rc/parts_images/mfw15.gif

I did a search for this and didn't find anything about it on the forums.

Does anyone know anything about this part?

-hobbycar

hilldebrandt
2010.03.30, 08:43 PM
Hmmmm....very interesting.

That's the first that I've seen of that. Looks like the tubes will fit right inside the rear springs. I wonder if they were ever released ?

herman
2010.03.30, 11:30 PM
i saw that part... you use it in the chassis with the rear springs (you put the springs in between them)... you can also add some damper oil or as they suggest ball diff grease to the pin... saw some instructions on the kyosho site a while back...

click here for the link (http://www.kyosho.com/jpn/support/instructionmanual/mini-z/pdf/MFW15_Inner_Tube_Shock_Set_m.pdf)

hope this helps

ruf
2010.05.16, 01:32 AM
It's not in the Kyosho America system. May have to grey market it.

Just pulled an SP2 carbon limited. Will drive it box stock to get an impression of the improvements. I'm really interested in how the new top damper works. It's really neat how it pivots.

EMU
2010.05.17, 01:05 AM
Joe, I am very impressed with the Kyosho damper, and the stock SP2 works well once you rebuild the diff and adjust the gearing. Compared to all of my other F1's, the SP2 took very little time to setup. I was very surprised with the performance.

mk2kompressor
2010.05.17, 03:29 PM
ive got some f1 tube dampers coming,ill keep you updated on how good they are:)

EMU
2010.05.17, 04:08 PM
I cant find them anywhere... I really want to try these out.

Traveler
2011.02.04, 06:22 AM
Anyone found and tried these yet?

outlaw-star
2011.02.04, 06:42 AM
On the SP2, they have a friction system? is this the same as a DPS?

Traveler
2011.02.04, 08:36 AM
Yes. Its a mini disk damper system. There is more in THIS (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33597) thread.

Traveler
2011.02.18, 02:36 PM
ive got some f1 tube dampers coming,ill keep you updated on how good they are:)

Any news on this part? Haven't seen them for sale anywhere :mad:

ruf
2011.03.03, 03:43 PM
I brought a few sets in and gave them to our team drivers. EMU and Matt should be able to comment as my F1 was crap at the worlds...

EMU
2011.03.03, 04:12 PM
I brought a few sets in and gave them to our team drivers. EMU and Matt should be able to comment as my F1 was crap at the worlds...
While I havent had the chance to try them... I saw first hand that ruf's car would not center well coming out of the corners. He also couldnt get much power down to the ground as well, even with super soft side plates to compensate for the side shocks.

I compare this suspension to the MR01 side shocks... what we need to get is a tri-damper setup for the F1. We need to be able to dial out the tweak and center well coming out of the corners. The side plate suspension has no defined pivot, it has a virtual pivot that always moves, and this causes many problems with setup and driving.

ruf
2011.03.03, 06:18 PM
Craziest thing. I struggled with centering all weekend. Found a few key areas for fixes, but never really locked it down. Also turns out my motor mount was tweaked. Will give it all another go very soon.

EMU
2011.03.03, 06:26 PM
You were using the 3Racing mount, correct? I felt the same thing with my mount when I took a small hit in the rear. I think it takes a lot of precise tuning to set the mount up well. The ATM mount is still my favorite, but it lacks the ability to use side springs...

mugler
2011.03.03, 07:42 PM
Kyosho also showed a new F1 Chassis at Nuremberg with a DDS set up that is supposed to fit more bodies than the friction disk will. Wonder if that will perform better in general?

Felix2010
2011.03.04, 12:26 AM
How is rear grip with the Kyosho hop-up FRP side suspension plates for the F1 installed?

Color0's MRCG has a similar rear suspension setup (I know it has its differences) compared to the F1, an I've heard the MRCG does not lack rear grip...

How is the F1's rear suspension supposed to work? I know the side plates provide left&right travel for the rear pod; And I know the top-shock and new Kyosho DDS-type friction plate system found on the F1-SP2 chassis work the same as they would on an MR02/MR03 chassis (Pretty much at least); But what is the purpose of the Kyosho left/right-side rear springs? Are they supposed to help the rear pod re-center itself or something to that effect? When you take the Kyosho F1 chassis rear/side springs combined with the side suspension plates and top shock+DDS, Why are these pieces not effective (It seems) ???

If the F1 chassis works That-Much-Better if you replace the left+right side plates + The rear side spring setup WITH the Mantis F1 bottom center T-Plate - Why doesn't everyone go this route? Why doesn't Kyosho design their own F1 single T-plate, Just like the race-proven MR-Series RWD chassis' (01/015/02/03) all have???

EMU
2011.03.04, 12:11 PM
The reason why Kyosho probably has not gone the t-plate route, is that you have to remove the t-plate to access the battery compartment. I have a few different F1's, all with different configurations. The t-plate one hooks up the best out of the corner, but it really depends on the track configuration as to which car is faster. Side plate cars work, but you have to really work hard to dial out tweak.

Traveler
2011.03.04, 12:19 PM
I brought a few sets in and gave them to our team drivers. EMU and Matt should be able to comment as my F1 was crap at the worlds...

Joe, thanks for getting this thread rolling... Look forward to hearing more...

Traveler
2011.03.04, 02:35 PM
By the way, where did you find them???

ruf
2011.04.01, 01:37 PM
I ordered them from a shop in Japan called RC Champ that does grey market imports.

Based on request to Kyosho America 6 months ago, they're finally on their way here in the US. MFW15 available in a couple weeks. $13.99

Traveler
2011.04.01, 01:58 PM
Thanks Joe!

color01
2011.04.02, 05:54 PM
How is rear grip with the Kyosho hop-up FRP side suspension plates for the F1 installed?

Color0's MRCG has a similar rear suspension setup (I know it has its differences) compared to the F1, an I've heard the MRCG does not lack rear grip...

How is the F1's rear suspension supposed to work? I know the side plates provide left&right travel for the rear pod; And I know the top-shock and new Kyosho DDS-type friction plate system found on the F1-SP2 chassis work the same as they would on an MR02/MR03 chassis (Pretty much at least); But what is the purpose of the Kyosho left/right-side rear springs? Are they supposed to help the rear pod re-center itself or something to that effect? When you take the Kyosho F1 chassis rear/side springs combined with the side suspension plates and top shock+DDS, Why are these pieces not effective (It seems) ???

If the F1 chassis works That-Much-Better if you replace the left+right side plates + The rear side spring setup WITH the Mantis F1 bottom center T-Plate - Why doesn't everyone go this route? Why doesn't Kyosho design their own F1 single T-plate, Just like the race-proven MR-Series RWD chassis' (01/015/02/03) all have???
If I may add in a couple comments...

The F1 suspension is like a T-plate system, only an extremely wide T-plate that has a gigantic hole in the middle of it. Typically, this kind of geometry results in high roll resistance and low bump resistance, which I do recall was the case when I drove Joe's F1. To boot, the F1's flex plates are fairly short for their horizontal spacing, so the roll resistance was much higher than any MR02 or 03 I've driven; to compensate for this the rear bump resistance also has to be raised, and damping increased drastically for both rear bump and roll. This is a compromise at best but it works decently on smooth tracks where the optimal setup would be stiff springs and damping anyway. I honestly don't see the point of having extra springs on the sides of the F1 pod, it only raises roll resistance further and makes the car very prone to sliding out on corner exit.

I worked with EMU for some time to soften up the rear end, and made him a couple prototype flex plates out of G10. This was specifically to lower the roll resistance -- I believe EMU still had to raise the bump stiffness to normal levels. But bringing the roll resistance of the F1 down to more manageable levels vastly improves its rear grip on non-glass-smooth RCP. This is pretty much what the Mantisworx T-plate does, it reduces roll resistance to give the rear axle the compliance it needs.

The other trouble with the stock F1 rear end is the lack of a defined pivot point; this is OK on short T-plate systems such as the MR02/03, but the longer F1 flex plates make the rear suspension somewhat vague, and compromises the consistency of damping across the suspension travel. The MRCG and later 1.1 employed all sorts of tricks to get around the inherent issues of the stock F1 rear suspension configuration -- I lengthened the flex plates almost 2x, reducing roll resistance to just a little stiffer than MR02's and 03's; made the two-piece flex plates one U-shaped piece, helping keep the pod centered; and introduced a center "pivot" spring, while not perfect it did help define a center pivot point and made the car handle much more consistently than without it.

A rigid center pivot would allow all of the F1's other suspension issues to be worked out perfectly fine IMO, but due to the chassis construction it's definitely difficult to fit one in there. Huge kudos to whoever thinks of a way to make it work (and if you do, let's talk business lol...).

Traveler
2011.04.11, 08:11 AM
Thanks again Brian! You have an exceptional way of clearly explaining engineering issues to a non-engineer like me :) I could see you being a great professor one day. :cool:

I'm at the office, so I don't have an F-1 in front of me, but reading your post, I'm wondering if the F1 could benefit from a gimbaled rear pod to provide the pivot point that's lacking. Dampening and shock absorbtion could then be handled by a tri-shock setup like Mantis has in the works?

I have the Kyosho FRP side plates, but haven't tried them yet. This is making me want to try them even more. We suspended running F1 for the last few weeks to get our other cars ready for the Carolina Cup. Now that that's behind us and I have a new non-glitching F1, I hope we'll run that class soon.

EMU
2011.04.11, 10:23 AM
I had been thinking of a rear suspension setup for the F1 for some time. I drew out a rough sketch of one of them. Combining some ideas that I got from the Iwaver chassis (not Kyosho clone), and a reverse gimbal setup... It would be very difficult to implement, as there would have to be a lot of custom parts, and possibility for slop. Besides a few people, I have not really shown the sketch, as it is not scaled and not fully thought out.

Essentially, it replaces the side plates with a Y plate. The top of the Y attaches to the side plate mount points on the chassis with a hinge on each side, lateral articulation is done by a hinge pin on the bottom of the Y. I did not move on to shock mounting, but a tri-damper system would need to be used. I toyed around with the idea of having a shock on the rear going from the rear of the Y plate to the Mantis wing mount. I dont think that the wing mount would be stiff enough to be adequate for suspension loading, but it was just an idea I had at the time...

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31654&stc=1&d=1302535404

chad508
2011.04.11, 10:38 AM
how about make a reverse qteq tplate. it would have to be bigeer but you could have it pivot at the end of the chassis were the springs go for fore-aft and pivon on the center of the pod for left-right.

EMU
2011.04.11, 10:45 AM
That is sort of what this does... Issues would be ground clearance... and mounting under the motor, as you want the motor as low as you can get it. If it is designed for a tri-shock, it wouldnt need the travel limiter grub screws or o-ring adjusting screw.... so you could essentially just use the plate and ball pivots...

pedrocamp
2011.04.11, 11:00 AM
A good idea and well described by Chad as a reverse QTEQ. Might take a new pod but we need a new one anyway with axle height adjustment...

chad508
2011.04.11, 11:10 AM
after that jig you made. im sure you can come up with something pedro.

lfisminiz
2011.04.11, 06:38 PM
Thanks again Brian! You have an exceptional way of clearly explaining engineering issues to a non-engineer like me :) I could see you being a great professor one day. :cool:

I'm at the office, so I don't have an F-1 in front of me, but reading your post, I'm wondering if the F1 could benefit from a gimbaled rear pod to provide the pivot point that's lacking. Dampening and shock absorbtion could then be handled by a tri-shock setup like Mantis has in the works?

I have the Kyosho FRP side plates, but haven't tried them yet. This is making me want to try them even more. We suspended running F1 for the last few weeks to get our other cars ready for the Carolina Cup. Now that that's behind us and I have a new non-glitching F1, I hope we'll run that class soon.

Have any tips on your non glitching F-1? Ive had it at times but not all the time.

Traveler
2012.03.05, 11:04 AM
Have any tips on your non glitching F-1? Ive had it at times but not all the time.

Larry, sorry for the delayed response. I just now saw your post! :o

Unfortunately, no solution for glitching. Pedro tried several things, as did Wade, and nothing seemed to make a difference on that car. So I just sold it for parts and started over with a new SP2 F1 and kept the 02 board instead of swapping to an 03 board like I did in my first car...

lfisminiz
2012.03.05, 02:56 PM
No problem. When i run them lately i havent had the problem.....knock on wood!:rolleyes:;):D