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MantisMMA
2010.04.23, 03:50 PM
well i am sure that most of you have seen the latest rule changes and it seems that they are DIRECTLY pointed at me. especially since they didnt exist until a few days ago. so maybe we should discuss the subject.

EMU
2010.04.23, 04:55 PM
Version 10.05 last updated Apr 19, 2010

F1 class No aftermarket or hand made wings, side dams, bumpers, brake ducts, etc. Kyosho front wing brace may be used and or trimmed.
Bill Crotty, a PN driver (nothing against you Bill) has been using hand made front wings for years, without penalty, winning the championship with it as well. Now that a much smaller company from PN produces a wing set for front and rear, it is immediately disallowed by the steward.

PN has had no interest in developing parts for the F1 besides a motormount. So it should not have anything but a positive affect for PN to permit other manufacturers parts in the class. It will increase motormounts being sold, as more people would consider running F1 knowing that it is safer. These parts will increase attendance in races, due to the safety that they provide for the chassis.

These products should increase the performance and the safety of the Formula1, and make it better to race together with other cars on the track, since cars will not be hooking on the rails, or getting rear ended and having the spur hit by the bumper of the car behind them. When you rear end the Mantis rear bumper, the shock is transferred to the chassis, rather than tweaking the rear wheels/motormount.

These parts were developed within in the guidlines that were set in place for the last few years of the PNWC. I feel that they were disallowed because PN did not come up with them first, which is due to the lack of interest in doing any development for Formula1 chassis.

With these rules in place, I know a lot of people who will not be racing F1 this year at the PNWC, that would if they were permitted. Many racers are discouraged by the F1 class, that they easily get hung up on the rails, and then are sitting ducks to get hit by cars behind them.

Many people have already invested in these parts, with intention of using them in the PNWC. Having them disallowed, now puts them all at a loss, of having the part, and not being able to use them for these events.

I really hope that these rules are changed, it is very disheartening to develop parts as a very small manufacturer, and have the rule book slammed in your face at one of the biggest race series' in the world.

Does this rule now disallow the 3Racing and Atomic front bumper as well? It appears so according to what is said in the rule.

briankstan
2010.04.23, 05:13 PM
I'll have to agree. this is really not a good idea to not allow after market parts, this is no different than using the atomic bumper, it's not Kyosho's design or the GPM under mount bumper supports of the past.

we want to encourage the development of parts for these cars not discourage the development by not allowing them to be run in events. Plus the reflect the new designs of the real F1 cars by the current rules.

I love PN products but I have to dis agree with this ruling. if that were the case I want to see some the PN parts also not be legal for racing as they give advantage over other.

A sad day.

PS. On the ++ side I am going to allow them for the HFAY Races. :) :)

bermbuster
2010.04.23, 05:19 PM
this is what the rules say:
F1 Stock Class, Kyosho Mini-Z F1 body, no additional parts add. No aftermarket or hand made wings, side dams, bumpers, brake ducts, etc. Kyosho front wing brace may be used and or trimmed.

It is a stock class and your parts do alter a "stock" F1.....
If it was a Mod F1 class I would be upset.

mleemor60
2010.04.23, 05:21 PM
The parts will be welcomed at all Carolina Cup events. Thank you for taking the time to develop and promote them.

EMU
2010.04.23, 05:23 PM
Brian, as far as I can tell, other manufacturers performance parts such as motormounts and dampers, knuckles, springs... are still permitted, which is why Mantis feels that it is a personal attack on his part line, which focuses on aerodynamics and safety of the car.

George, these are what are listed as race classes this year:
"Race Classes
2WD Stock, GT Mod, F1 Modified, Pan Car Modified."
I am pretty sure that that is a typo for F1 Stock. I plan to run F1 Modified, not F1 Stock :rolleyes:

briankstan
2010.04.23, 05:28 PM
Brian, as far as I can tell, other manufacturers performance parts such as motormounts and dampers, knuckles, springs... are still permitted, which is why Mantis feels that it is a personal attack on his part line, which focuses on aerodynamics and safety of the car.

yes, I don't think it is right at all. I know PN drivers race prototype parts all the time at events. In reality parts should not be legal until they are released to the general public for purchase at least a month in advance. Is it fair to the driver that are competing against these parts to be at a disadvantage because they cant get them. These parts are available to all and should be allowed.

Mantisworxs parts are available to all and although the focus on a different aspect of performance I think it is short sighted to not allow them.

Yes, the F1 is now a mod class.

mleemor60
2010.04.23, 05:29 PM
this is what the rules say:
F1 Stock Class, Kyosho Mini-Z F1 body, no additional parts add. No aftermarket or hand made wings, side dams, bumpers, brake ducts, etc. Kyosho front wing brace may be used and or trimmed.

It is a stock class and your parts do alter a "stock" F1.....
If it was a Mod F1 class I would be upset.

George, I could be wrong but I believe that the F-1 are modified for this year.

Daddy Rabbit
2010.04.23, 05:31 PM
EMU,
I agree with you also.
But, there should be some guide lines as to maybe width, materials etc.
And not just a carte blanc rule across the board.
This just eliminates inovations and ideas that could be usefull to our sport.
I am sure that manufactures run parts for testing that are not available to the mainstream racers.
Hopefully we will get a new ruling on this before we get too far into the season.

hrdrvr
2010.04.23, 05:47 PM
I don't think we should jump the gun and get too hasty on this. I think Phillip made a quick judgment call, and will gladly take the majority of racers input and possibly change the ruling.

I'm the one who spurred this new ruling, and I apologize if Ive sparked something in the negative direction. Basically I asked Phillip last week if there was anything against the use of bumpers that are slightly wider than the front wheels. I did ask this question in regards to the Mantis wing specifically. My intention was not to push for the removal of them from competition (I own a mantis rear wing too), but just for clarification of the rule, so I can be as competitive as possible, and so that I can enforce the rules correctly at my up-coming regional.

He did ask my opinion about his decision, and I gave positive feedback. I don't necessarily agree with it 100%, but I understand it, and would be happy to enforce it at my regional.

Now, while I totally agree that limiting certain parts, or manufacturers from competition is a negative thing we have to remember, this is a manufacturers cup we are talking about. Its not like ROAR is putting some one out....its PNs cup.

Also, from a race directors point of view, where is the line drawn? If we say any aftermarket bumpers and home made "protection" is legalized, then we should be prepared to see something like this (click me) (http://www.mininascar.com/products/cpcupcar/images/durabilityfirst.jpg) at the next worlds. Having a finite line of the ruling is important. I will support it where ever its drawn, and Ill try my best to exploit every advantage I can within the confines of the rules.

EDIT:
Oh, and just as an aside, all MantisWorx parts will be legal at all of our non-sanctioned local events, and club races.

briankstan
2010.04.23, 06:03 PM
While I do agree that it is a PN racer series. I still don't agree with it the ruling on this, and if these were PN products, they would be legal. (you all know they would be). I have alot of respect for Philip and the products he produces and use them almost exclusively, but other then the PN F1 mount, they just haven't supported the class, so why suppress the products of someone that has?

I was so happy that someone, even a startup Manufacturer like MantisWorxs took the F1 and did some development on it that it should be encouraged, not road blocked.

That being said if I were attending an event, or hosting one, I would follow the rules that have been given, but I hope the this is reconsidered and the rule is changed.

I would say this debate is about getting the rules changed, I'm sure those that race at the events would follow the rules that are in place for those events.

I would like to hear Philips opinions as to why this ruling was made. Most of the PN drivers (that I can think of) don't even run the F1 Class. Also have they tested the parts personally??

bermbuster
2010.04.23, 11:12 PM
George, I could be wrong but I believe that the F-1 are modified for this year.

If indeed it is a mod class....modified components should be legal.....

If your parts are banned I would take it as a compliment and move forward.....
It is a PN series and technically PN can do what is right for them....
You might have to have a Mantis Outlaw F1 Racing League.....:cool:

EMU
2010.04.24, 12:07 AM
If indeed it is a mod class....modified components should be legal.....

If your parts are banned I would take it as a compliment and move forward.....
It is a PN series and technically PN can do what is right for them....
You might have to have a Mantis Outlaw F1 Racing League.....:cool:

George, you may not understand how much time, effort and money goes into production of parts. It is not an easy undertaking for a small company such as MantisWorx (which is a one person company). Having the parts disallowed, will make people not want to use these parts, since they cannot be used in what has been considered the highest level competition of this scale. They wouldnt want to develop their setup with parts that they could not use in the PNWC, then have to remove them and change the setup at the PNWC. With such a finicky chassis as the F1, every part option available really helps. Especially since this chassis is so limited in aftermarket support.

To move forward, is very difficult with such a small company, since there is a lot invested in every part that is developed, and without revenue on the part, it is money, time and effort wasted. I lost over $2000 developing my tower bars for the MR015, I am sure that these parts cost far more than that amount. With such a loss on my parts, I could not even think about trying to produce another part, since I simply did not have any money to even make prototypes. Months if not years of development and research were put into these F1 parts, which makes it hard to move on without being hurt by a simple ruling by a manufacturers cup. One ruling like this will prevent other small companies from entering the market, since the part may quickly become a banned part (such as these F1 parts). So it really takes away from the development and evolution of the scale. This is more why I am disturbed by this ruling than the specific parts that are being ruled against. There is no room for improvement now that it has been restricted.

Smaller clubs base their rules on the rules for these premier level cup races. We have no ROAR Nationals, Worlds, etc. in this scale, so we are limited to manufacturer cup races as our highest level races. With that, there are restricted classes in every cup, but there are also unrestricted classes. F1 has always been a smaller class, but has shown growth in the last few years as setups have improved for the chassis, which is one of the most difficult to setup and drive out of all of the scales classes. One of the most difficult things about the class is how fragile they are, and how easily they get hung up on the boards. I cant tell you how many times I have been hurt by running into someone that got hung up right in front of me, and I had nowhere to go. I was planning to use these parts in this years PNWC, more for durability, but now that they are not permitted, I feel that it is going to hurt the class in attendance and quality of racing.

This ruling does not only affect MantisWorx, it affects every manufacturer who would want to produce a part for the chassis. Atomic, 3Racing and EagleRacing are also affected, as their front bumpers are now disallowed. Every manufacturer that wants to produce a new part, has to think about whether the rules are going to change once that part is released. Being a PN cup, yes, they do make the rules as it is their cup. However, restricting other manufacturers parts brings the quality of the series down. Much like the Atomic cup, which has two classes which only Atomic parts must be used. This reduces the amount of entries drastically, but the open classes are packed with entries.

I dont want to carry on too much about this, but I feel strongly that this is a poor decision to restrict the chassis so much. It is now a modified class, with more restrictions than when it was stock.

If the wing and bumper are restricted, I assume that this does not effect the wing and bumper mounts. I assume that I can use the MantisWorx wing mount with the stock wing. I also assume that I could use the diffusor from the stock mount, attached to the wing mount. Or if the stock Kyosho bumper is attached by an alternate mount to the chassis, to raise and cover the wheels better...

As in full scale F1, interpretation of the rules give gray areas that manufacturers and racers work around to attain the setup that they want to race. It seems that we cant even stay out of F1 scandals, even in this scale :rolleyes:

Landon, I dont know anyone who would want to use a CP cup car conversion on their F1. It would make it very slow, and would still hang up on the boards since it is RCP against RCP.

J-Milz
2010.04.24, 02:40 AM
This is a classic case of "This is my party, and I can do what I wanna"! Booo PN!!

pedrocamp
2010.04.24, 05:59 AM
I have always liked the fact that PN allowed other manufacturers parts in a PN sponsered series. I thought that this was generous on Philip's part and I felt that he was so confident in the quality of his parts that he would go head to head with competitor's parts in a race series that he himself sponsored. I bought many PN parts because of this confidence, not only because of their obvious quality. The quality of his parts sometimes proven at PN races against other manufacturers parts. I raced in the Tamiya 10th scale TCS series for a few years and that series was strictly limited to Tamiya parts. About the only thing allowed not made by Tamiya was a Kimbrough servo saver for the F1 cars. I didn't like the limitations but understood it since it was Tamiya's series and they did not require an entry fee and gave out lots of prizes, if you attended, you went home with something. That's why I was so impressed with Philip's concept of a manufacturer's cup that allowed you to try and run other manufacturers parts. I know he limits the Pan classes to his bodies, but to me he is entitled to some restrictions in efforts to promote his products. His "open" concept of a manufacturer's cup justified the entry fee and in my mind elevated the series and his products. We do not have a national or world independently (ROAR?) santioned series in this scale as previously mentioned. I believe the PN series is the closest thing we have, even though Philip does have a few restrictions.
I think though that limiting the use of Mantis' parts is not in the spirit of Philip's original concept. It will hurt participation and ultimately hurt the sales of the parts Philip does sell for this class. I applaud Mantis' work and efforts to supply us with some new options for this class. I hope Philip will reconsider his ruling and put F1 more in line rule-wise with the other classes.

SaiTam
2010.04.24, 07:07 AM
I have been running my $0 lexan F1 front bumper for years. I guess some of the F1 racers have no choice but stop contributing $$ to PN F1 class from now on.

I think PN can make the rules anyway he wanted. It's up to you to participate or not participate in it. But I don't think some people here get the point. It's all about rule change right after someone releases interesting and useful parts; rather than a discussion of allowing or disallowing other/custom parts.

mleemor60
2010.04.24, 07:16 AM
Extremely well put from both Pedro and EMU. Have either of you considered a role in politics?

Mantis. I applaud you for maintaining the high road on this. So far.

MantisMMA
2010.04.24, 09:40 AM
first of all thanks guys for your support and i am truly flattered that PN is a threatened by me! there is not much for me to say as all of you have already said what i feel about the stewards ruling. all in all i dont think it is going to affect me too much since 98% of the time most of you use your own local rules and not many of you will attend more than two PN events throughout the year anyway. all that needs to be done is swap out to a kyosho (horrible) front bumper and the stock fragile rear wing.

i am developing some PN legal (as of now) parts. there are a few things that do get to me like the fact that most of the things i design revolve around the PN mount (could have easily worked with ATOMIC).

everything thing except side dams on his ruling were my specific parts! and the "ETC" part of the rules which to me says that if i make anything else he will more than likely ban it too, the "ETC" rule leaves alot of grey area on the table. i still have not had a response from him and from what i can tell i think he has been on the forum since this started but not 100% positive. either way, i will not stop and if nothing else it has lit a fire in me to make even more dominant products and cut into this mini z monarchy.

by nature i am a competitor, competetion makes the market stronger. maybe i will have a 3 race per year series and tie into the reflex endurance. maybe i will have a completely seperate series! there are alot of us F1 enthusiast and maybe i am biased but it seems that since i have starting making these parts for the chassis more F1 racers have come out of the woodwork! i have been getting personal emails from a number of you and its good to hear how most of your REALLY feel about this situation and others like it. even if this attack was on somebody else i would still say that it is a bad idea. but we still do not know what PN will say about this and hopefully he will reconsider his rulings. i have met phillip a few times and have even borrowed a motor from him at the last event i attended, i dont see him as a bad person or a bully in fact just the opposite!

at the end of the day it is his event and he can do what he wants, we can only hope that he listens to what the racers want! i dont see how he can lose by allowing mantisworx parts in his series.

bermbuster
2010.04.24, 10:12 AM
at the end of the day it is his event and he can do what he wants, we can only hope that he listens to what the racers want! i dont see how he can lose by allowing mantisworx parts in his series.

Do you think his ruling may revolve around giving only certain drivers an advantage with your parts....I know your parts are for sale but do the racers in Portugal, Spain, Germany Sweden and all the all countries (sorry for who I missed) know about them and have access (bought them)
PN has an investment in these venues as well and to allow the part and not have the part for all competitors to purchase it gives an advantage to a few....
If PN has a new part you know it will be at the event and For Sale after all his business revolves around selling parts.
What I like about Philip is he doesnt copy or rip off designs.....
What would be worse his ruling or if he copied your parts????

dvsstrike
2010.04.24, 02:09 PM
that just plain crap:mad:

EMU
2010.04.24, 02:12 PM
What would be worse his ruling or if he copied your parts????
For the racers, the ruling :D The racers will always welcome more parts, even if they are very similar. That is the way the game is played. One manufacturer develops a part that lights a bulb in all of the other manufactures heads, the engineers then go and use the primary ideas from the part and develop their own version of it... thats how we get better parts, by competition of parts rather than exclusion of them.

I respect PN a great deal. I dont want what I wrote above to come across otherwise. I dont want it to come across as if I am attacking him, I just dont agree with such a limiting rule put in place for a class that has had a lot of recent development and exposure with the MantisWorx parts. Especially when it is a chassis that has been neglected by many manufacturers.

Without PN's development and race series, this scale would not be what it is today. With that said, all that us F1 enthusiasts can do is hope that the rule will be turned, or adapted to let certain parts used that will benefit everyone that races in this class.

I also dont think that there is anything wrong with using prototype parts in high level competition. So long as the part stays in line with the rules set for the class. Which in this case these parts did, but the rules were quickly changed in response to the release of the parts.

I believe that Philip will do what is right for him, and the racers. We may not be permitted to use all of the Mantis parts, but I would hope that the front and rear wings/bumpers would be permitted.

pnracingsweden
2010.04.24, 04:50 PM
Take it easy and wait for Philips answer.
In Sweden we have raced F1 in both our PNWC races and will race again in September 25-26 in Stockholm (Sweden) its not a big class but fun :-)
/Jocke

Racer-HH
2010.04.25, 07:24 AM
The guys at our local club in Hamburg (Germany) have been confused about the rules for F1 class - which is a modified class now anyway - for a while and I will take the opportunity to post our thoughts on this here.

The PNWC rules version 10.05 state the following:

"Hop Up Parts

l All Classes
Drivers may use any Kyosho or after market parts available. All upgrades must conform to all other rules posted in this document. All upgrades must be designed for the chasse that the upgrade has been installed on. No upgrade will be allowed if the upgrade will interfere with the cars of other drivers. The PN Racing directory, tech inspectors and race officials reserve the right to disqualify any part deemed improper based on fairness and possible interference."

So, why intentionally reduce this to Kyosho and PN parts - which are manufactures with a limited supply of tuning parts at the moment - in this particular class?

We really looked forward racing in this class, but most of us have 3rd party after market parts (from Atomic, GPM e.g.) installed. We might even be willing to switch them to PN or Kyosho, but most of them are simply not available from the two companies.

To summarize this, we simply would like to have the above mentioned and quoted rules to be used for F1, too. In our opinion, there is no need for the intentional exclusion of certain parts in F1 and it even may bring the current rise in attention to this beatiful class to a stop.

@ Mantis:though nobody really knows why and if, the time of the latest rule change indeed seems suspicious to the plain observer...

Racer

dvsstrike
2010.04.27, 06:58 PM
so whats verdict?

MantisMMA
2010.04.27, 10:47 PM
i still have no response from phil, i think Landon is attempting to chat with him.

EMU
2010.04.28, 01:06 AM
That's nice. Thanks Landon :)

MantisMMA
2010.04.28, 01:36 AM
i just got a response from phillip but to be honest i dont really understand what he is trying to say. it sounds like he understands what we are saying but the rules would have to be changed again to allow the bumpers and wings. he seems like he is concerned about the appearance of the cars. maybe we should turn this thread into a proposed f1 rules thread here is what i think:

FRONT WING /BUMPER:
no hand made bumpers, should be production part that is available to anyone and produced by a manufacturer(atomic,kyosho,GPM, mantisworx etc)
must fit a certain dimension (width and height)

REAR WING:
no hand made wings, should be a production part that is available to anyone and produced by a MFG and must fit within a overall height and width limit

CHASSIS:
must fit within height, width,length and weight limits
if the body has to be excessivley trimmed than the hole must be covered (ie bodywork is allowed )
car must have all accessories, front wing, rear wing,nose and main body
SUSPENSION:
any suspension mods are allowed as long is the car "apears" to look like a formula one race car

and all of the normal rules still apply

pedrocamp
2010.04.28, 06:49 AM
Aren't all F1 cars supposed to be homemade/handmade?

Should the no "homemade" parts rule cover just F1 front and rear wings/bumpers or all parts used within the PNWC? Would such a rule prohibit the use of prototype parts by the team drivers of a manufacturer? How far can you modify an existing part before it becomes "homemade"?

What is the definition of a manufacturer? A website? Tax number? Registered trademark?

I think dimensional rules are the best solution, a ruler is easy to interpret.

mleemor60
2010.04.28, 07:39 AM
Although F-1 like Soccer seems to be the world standard for open wheel racing and football there are those among us that likely think otherwise.

F-1(open wheel racing) has historically been the standard for innovation and creativity. So why not include the American version and allow coppies of Indy/CART type body and wing designs to be brought to the table. There are an incredible number of decals available dating from the era of Silent Sam(the STP turbine) up to and including the current livery sported by Danica.

The F-1 chassis that Kyosho has given us makes a beautiful pallette to paint on. Why do we continue to paint the same picture over and over?

Think about it.

machgo5go
2010.04.28, 08:02 AM
Although F-1 like Soccer seems to be the world standard for open wheel racing and football there are those among us that likely think otherwise.

F-1(open wheel racing) has historically been the standard for innovation and creativity. So why not include the American version and allow coppies of Indy/CART type body and wing designs to be brought to the table. There are an incredible number of decals available dating from the era of Silent Sam(the STP turbine) up to and including the current livery sported by Danica.

The F-1 chassis that Kyosho has given us makes a beautiful pallette to paint on. Why do we continue to paint the same picture over and over?

Think about it.
Let's leave F-1 as is since it is a class of it's own. We don't want to be mistaking for some IRL since it is turning to be a specs class anyway almost like the good old boys down south. As for rules, why don't we ask Mr. Bernie Ecclestone of FIA opinion. Kyosho's brand Auto Scale means copy of the real thing, not some homemade job IMO. JDM guys always keeping it real :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwvJVctK_CQ

MantisMMA
2010.04.28, 09:07 AM
just like most rules i think the final say in any parts should be left to the race director at that time, i only said " no handmade" because phillip is concerned about the cars keeping their integrity, if you get teenager making a plastic wing out of JB weld and duct tape that should not be legal but if Pedro makes on that actually looks good and fits within the boundries than so be it. i just got another response from Phillip and he has not even seen my parts at all so he wants me to send him some photos and dimensions and he said he will change the rules! but i would like to also send him a recommended rules list.

Mike as far as your IRL thing is concerned as long as the car fits within the boundries it shouldnt be a problem although traditionally the IRL cars are shorter and wider than F1,
Pedro the "no handmade" is only applied to external cosmetic items. in the spirit of F1 we should be able to try and create anything better but that is why it is important to get "tight " rules because we all know what "grey area" rules get you!!

Mach, i agree with you and i personally think F1 should be F1 but unless the rules state that IRL is out it will be allowed but you gotta also think that very few people are going to do that so i wouldnt worry about it too much. and also remember that the old F1 cars look like the current IRL cars so the rule would have to state that the cars have to look like a certain generation of f1 and that just too much to worry about!

chad508
2010.04.28, 09:25 AM
i disagree with the no hand made parts. all other classes allow hand made wings as long as they fit inside the width and height rules. i feel f1 should be the same. to limit it to only production parts does not allow those with little income to be as competative. just my 2 cents

MantisMMA
2010.04.28, 09:32 AM
i agree, im only saying this because of Phillips concern about the looks of the car, maybe there is a better way to word it. remember these are just PN rules, anyone that can afford to fly around to the PNWC events can afford to buy production parts!! and ultimately it is at the race directors discretion, if its legal or not.

hrdrvr
2010.04.28, 09:53 AM
^ I can afford your front wing, but don't like the look of it. I'm pretty sure Ive got the skill to create something that will perform nearly as good, but look more like a real F1 front wing. If its all based on scale appearance then my (theoretical) wing should be legal before yours. If I wont compromise on the scale look, but can achieve the performance (integrity included), then I shouldn't be penalized. Its just hard to draw the line, which is why I'm sure Phillip chose to just eliminate it all. If we are getting the doors opened back up, they should be open to every one. Handmade parts will lead to production parts if they are good ones :D

I'm very happy he is reconsidering the ruling, even if it doesn't get changed. It shows Phillip values what we as racers have to say, and takes us into consideration.

MantisMMA
2010.04.28, 10:21 AM
im working on a different design, its just hard to design one that looks real and is effective in keeping the car off of the rail!these are not my rules Landon, im just making suggestions to see where everyones head is at, you know P better than i do!

z3zinho
2010.04.28, 01:13 PM
Since this has turned into a more general F1 rules thread I would just like to voice MY OPINION on the front bumpers

Once again, this is just my opinion, but one of the things that makes the F1 so unique and appealing to me is that they are actual open wheel cars, just like their real counterparts. In open wheel racing, rubbing isn't racing :p

I have seen numerous home made bumpers (even at the last world cup) that , for me weren't within the guidelines and spirit of the rules.

Just so you guys understand, i have no problem with different suspension parts etc, but I do think that these new front bumpers are a bit out of what i think F1/open wheel racing should be.

Finally, as long as the cars keep their scale look, and there is a leveled playing field (as in all drivers have access to the same parts) i don't really care what the rules are.:p

MantisMMA
2010.04.28, 03:09 PM
i am working on a new design right now and it will look more like the real cars. i didnt think my old one looked that bad but apperently it does!! either way THAT issue will be resolved today! will post on my thread later tonight to get a general opinion.

MantisMMA
2010.04.28, 07:18 PM
ok here is what i have come up with,its not as effective as the original version but still very effective especially on the main straight if you brush the rail. i could get even more detailed but it would end up costing too much what do you guys think?

http://i770.photobucket.com/albums/xx341/muscletexx/28a1edf1.jpg

http://i770.photobucket.com/albums/xx341/muscletexx/7ca39228.jpg

http://i770.photobucket.com/albums/xx341/muscletexx/cb691142.jpg

mleemor60
2010.04.28, 08:30 PM
After version 2.0 the new 2.1 looks promising. Like the 1/1 scale F-1's the appendages will be constantly in a state of evolution. Thank you for the innovation. The process will help a lot of us keep the car headed in the right direction long enough to figure out what we as drivers want the car to do for us and vice versa. It will likely draw a lot of new interest and renew a lot of old.

Great initiative. Keep up the good work.

lfisminiz
2010.04.28, 09:13 PM
Marcus/Mantis, just like the first front wing, this version looks very good too. For my 2 cents worth......BOTH wings look easily good enough to look "F-1". The whole idea of the mini-z, is keeping it freash and inovative. In the F-1 class its important to keep the F-1 look. I think this is a no brainer. If no new ideas.......why bother at all. This kind of thinking will boost the F-1 popularity.

I had an F-1 a couple years ago....got rid of it. Didnt really care for it. Now i just bought the new sp chassis. Thanks to your ideas and guys like Eugene and Matt, im kind of enthused by the F-1 again. Maybe for good this time.;)

Again just my opinion, but as long as it looks F-1, enjoy it, dont stiffel it.:)

ruf
2010.04.28, 09:15 PM
Before anyone else jumps all over PN, I'm pretty sure that nothing suspicious is going on. I'll give Philip a call and see if we can sort it out. Maybe it requires some detailed rules.

I understand the desire to keep F1 looking scale. That is it's main appeal, imo. With the transition to mod motors, there will naturally be a shift to try an protect the front end more which could result in some very ugly cars. I know I've lost some big races by running a Kyosho front bumper or running out of Atomic front bumpers (I usually break 1 or 2 throughout a big race weekend). That being said, Bill Crotty has whipped my a## with the ugliest F1 car ever, so in that case, I welcome the rule... :D Just kidding. Personally, I like the fragility of the F1 chassis, and I think it's a big part of what makes racing it fun for me. Every pass you make is a calculated risk, and I think it brings the gentleman driver out of fellow racers.

So the question to F1 racers - would you rather have a wing that is scale and sexy? Or a bumper car wing that makes the car less risky to drive aggressively? Personally, I don't think the decision is really black and white. With the latest generation of F1 cars having wider front wings, I think there is an opportunity to improve the driveability of these cars while maintaining a scale appearance (something Mantis has clearly identified with his bumpers). That being said, there needs to be STRICT regulation to keep these things from turning into door stops. I think that Philip has made a quick decision that is fair given the current environment. Any changes will require extensive study.

lfisminiz
2010.04.28, 09:20 PM
By the way, Philip and i are good freinds. I didnt talk to him yet on this because im newer to the F-1. One thing i know is Philip is as fair and nice of a guy that you will meet. Im sure he is getting input and studying this more before a descission comes.;):)

machgo5go
2010.04.28, 09:20 PM
Since this has turned into a more general F1 rules thread I would just like to voice MY OPINION on the front bumpers

Once again, this is just my opinion, but one of the things that makes the F1 so unique and appealing to me is that they are actual open wheel cars, just like their real counterparts. In open wheel racing, rubbing isn't racing :p

I have seen numerous home made bumpers (even at the last world cup) that , for me weren't within the guidelines and spirit of the rules.

Just so you guys understand, i have no problem with different suspension parts etc, but I do think that these new front bumpers are a bit out of what i think F1/open wheel racing should be.

Finally, as long as the cars keep their scale look, and there is a leveled playing field (as in all drivers have access to the same parts) i don't really care what the rules are.:p That is why I like the European's!
Always in fine taste in keeping it Scale & Realistic with non of these homemade paint job of flames & checker flags. It will be my 20th year attending the Canadian GP in June so maybe after the adrenaline, I may pick up one of these new 2.4Ghz F1.:rolleyes:

JuniorWKR
2010.04.29, 11:30 AM
Just make an F1 outlaw class... run that with the stock/mod class... see which one has more popularity and run with that one class for next year....

mleemor60
2010.04.29, 11:50 AM
My Mantis version 1 front bumper came today. I ordered it to see what all the fuss is about and to critique it for my own use. It is a masterful piece of design. Perhaps a bit of overkill from a structural stand point but a fine piece of work just the same. It weighs .1g more than a standard F-1 front wing mounted with the Atomic carbon/alumunum front bumper assembly It is less money also. It looks much better in the hand then it does in pictures. With a little color of your choice and a decal or two I don't think it would be distinguishable from a Kyoso wing and bumper with the car on the track and you looking down on it. The overall width is less than a millimeter per side wider overall than the front track width of the car.

I am sure that once the piece is in your hands you will see as I have that in twenty minutes with a little skill and a couple of hand tools this bumper/wing combination can pe pared down likely 1.5 to 2 grams without harming it's integrity and look virtually identical to the current 1/1 scale F-1 front wing. Even better.

Let's be sure not to throw the baby out with the bathwater here. As it and all of Mantis Worx parts are as far as I know untested in organized competition perhaps a provisional status can be granted to see how they actually perform and whether or not the are a detriment to other competitors in the class. At least these parts are readily available to all of us.

I'm not sure how all this went so sideways in the first place. Phillip has always been known for fairness to all manufacturer's competing in his series. I'm sure that if we leave him alone so he can study it he will make an amicable decision.

yasuji
2010.04.29, 12:06 PM
on the front wing.....couldn't you install the stk front wing rather than the cf wedge? all of the components are there....id rather see ur bumper utilize the std front wing!;)

mleemor60
2010.04.29, 12:42 PM
Good point. Sometimes you don't see the forest for the trees. I was trying to find ways to be progressive with it while making it conform. You could easily mount a stock front wing to the bumper main plate and still retain the portion of the bumper that protects the wheels. If the small outer curved pieces of delrin were left black they would be virtually invisible while providing decent protection to our paint and decals.

bermbuster
2010.04.29, 12:43 PM
I think what has happened is the bumper has changed the stock appearance of the F1 as sold by Kyosho. Kyosho must pay some good money to license the use of bodies and to see them get modified may turn certain people off..... The new bumper/wing doesnt look like a real F1 You dont see huge (not to scale) screws holding the wing on. They dont use delrin blocks as sliders.
Joe Chen said it best the Front end of the F1 is fragile and you need to drive like a gentleman. The new style bumper/wing can be construed as more of a battering ram than a bumper....I think it is great to use at the club level where you can hone your driving skills and not break too often.
When you race at a national or world event you remove it....

EMU
2010.04.29, 12:51 PM
Grant, my Mantis bumpers are in transit, when they arrive I will try using a stock wing with one of them... I am not sure if there is enough room, but I will at least see if it fits, even if I have to modify the wing slightly (shave down the sides).

I think what is trying to be accomplished with the CF wedge is an adjustable aero package.

Most of my front wings are split down the middle and discarded. I had started running with only the Kyosho front bumper after I ran out of wings (at ALS race) and preferred how the car felt like that. I dont know if it was the lack of front downforce aero or the change in weight distribution that made it feel better. Durability was not the strong point of the Kyosho design, even with their bumper.

One issue with F1, is that since it is a pretty small class relative to the others, you have a mix of skill levels at events that the class is run. This means that the leaders are usually always in traffic, and despite how conservative they run, the odds are that they will get into a tangle at some point with a backmarker. I know that this has happened to me in quite a few races and taken me out of contention. Will the bumper stop that from happening, no. But it will help keep the car in one piece after it happens, so you dont have to replace the wing for the next race. . . which can be hard to find and expensive for the older cars.

George, as soon as the cars get painted, the original appearance is changed. I think that the Mantis bumper looks more like current F1's than the Kyosho design, despite a lack of detail on the wing. Current F1 front wings are slightly wider than the track width, and the rear wing is roughly half of that. When on the track, you dont see the details. As a static model, they wont pass, but as a moving RC model. . . I dont think you will see the detail.

Joe, I agree with what you said about making calculated risks when passing. The open wheel aspect is what this is all about. I dont think that the Mantis bumper will change that. The car will just hold up better when things dont work out so well when making a pass. I dont think that the modified motor change will increase speeds much, since there is only so much speed that these cars can take into the corners. It will increase acceleration a lot. Frontrunners will have to battle through traffic more, and at a greater speed differential. I think that Mantis has been developing his parts to maintain a good amount of realism, while focusing on durability and in the long run keeping the cars on the track instead of in the pits.

z3zinho
2010.04.29, 01:05 PM
I

Joe Chen said it best the Front end of the F1 is fragile and you need to drive like a gentleman. The new style bumper/wing can be construed as more of a battering ram than a bumper....I think it is great to use at the club level where you can hone your driving skills and not break too often.
When you race at a national or world event you remove it....

Thats what i meant to say... but Joe explained it better... ;)

MantisMMA
2010.04.29, 03:34 PM
Grant the main one of the reasons i made the wing the way it is is to slightly update the cars to the newer gen of F1 and at the same time allow for some durability, F1 changes every year and its nice to try and keep up as much as we can. as EMU said , when you are on the track the V1 bumper simulates the newr style. the current front wings are old technology and yes you can probably modify it but if you remove the side delrin pcs your gonna cut into the RCP and have defeated the purpose. all of this is now moot as i have been talking with phil via email for the last few days and the rules will be changed and my parts will be allowed!! we are going to use my F/R wings for the dimensional template for the rules ,im going to submit them today. even though it is not neccesary i am going to offer the V1 and V2 style wings from now on as they will both be legal. this has been an interesting experience and i am glad that everyone jumped on board to support the class and offer input on the rules! in a few days everything will be back to normal.

ruf
2010.04.29, 04:11 PM
That's great news Marcus!

I will voice my personal opinion that the wing should not extend past the wheel width AT ALL. This would offer front protection, but not side. The widest part of an open wheel car should be the wheels, imo.

Also, I feel primary consideration should be given to scale appearance. It's a slippery slope when you start compromising as evidenced in other scales. To that end, PNWC has always been very stringent about body modifications in the Autoscale classes. The issue in the F1 class is that the body is much more integrated with the chassis. In 1:1 F1, packaging engineering is one of the most difficult challenges in car design. To this end, I'd also like to see restrictions on how you can cut holes for suspension etc. We don't see Autoscales with disk dampers sticking out the roof or kingpins sticking out the hood. We shouldn't see F1's with the same.

And yes, I have raced an F1 with cutouts for a disk damper in the past. In hindsight, I don't think this is necessarily a good thing.

MantisMMA
2010.04.29, 04:39 PM
the wing s as of right now are only 1mm wider than the track of the front wheels (depending on what camber you have) i dont think that cosmetically it will make much of a difference but will keep from breaking knuckles and flipping the cars on the main straight. as far as the body modifications are concerned personally im going to cover my holes with styrene and repaint, i agree that we shouldnt have holes everywhere its hard to draw that line but with that being said even some of kyosho's own parts will not fit with out cutting holes in the body. once again i think that the race director should have the final say at an event.

MantisMMA
2010.04.29, 04:50 PM
1:1 f1 the wings are slightly wider than the front track!


http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/2/10395.html

http://www.conceptcarz.com/view/photo/493079,18019/2010-Renault-R30.aspx

ruf
2010.04.29, 05:15 PM
The 2010 F1 front wings are NOT wider than the front wheel track width. That is an optical illusion from the perspective view of the camera angle.

As for the Mantis wing width, maybe you can have a "training wheels" version and a "superlicense" version... :p And this is coming from a guy who has cartwheeled down straits and broken knuckles and tierods aplenty! :D

EMU
2010.04.29, 05:21 PM
That is good news.

I dont think that this bumper goes overboard with its width. It is styled after the current front wings, which are slightly wider than the wheels, or just at the same width.
http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Renault/2010-Renault-R30-F1-Image-08-800.jpg

I do understand what Joe is saying though... If you take a lot of the challenge out of just wheeling the F1 around the track, It will lose a little of the prestige there is to racing them. It takes a skilled racer just to race these cars at the limit in full scale, same goes for Mini-Z. I think that this will remain the same, regardless if there are track width bumpers or not.

Joe, I like the training wheel idea, do you think that would pass the new ruling ;)

MantisMMA
2010.04.29, 05:26 PM
if you change the camber/toe on the car you get different dimensions and i have already sold a pretty good amount of the bumpers as is and would hate to have them banned, if he decides to cahnge it next year than we can follow it but i dont see how keeping the cars on teh track is a bad thing!! he is also going to allow custom hand made bumpers so in reality if one does not want the bumper to reach max allowed width than one does not have to, i dont see any harm in this. on my car with 4* of camber it is 1mm over , on a stock camber car it is less than .3mm over per side, i dont really think that is enough of a measurement to worry about especially since it is legal to put spacers on the front wheels to make them wider. not only that but the dimensions im giving you are with Atomic front tires and they generally are not as wide as the kyosho tires are.

yasuji
2010.04.29, 10:04 PM
like emu said up a few posts...use ur bumpers as is but shave the std wing to the width that it needs....i got looking @ the f1 i have sitting on the shelve....an older one AM....i am NOT A F1 driver(not enough talent...lol)
however i do like the way the kyosho wings look....if they work or not ...i dont know...but im sure ur bumpers will blend rt in to the stk wings....:D

MantisMMA
2010.04.29, 11:31 PM
you are right but if your an F1 fan you dont want the old style front wing and then the new style rear wing it just doesnt match. i like to have the latest style!! My body is completely shaved down to look like the 2k10 cars and am painting it to look like the renault R30 and im also building the "virgin" car too! but to each his own, this is going to be an interesting F1 season over the next two years, i think it will surpass the pan class and give mod sedan a run for its money by next year!