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Tim Johnson
2010.05.11, 10:57 PM
Hello Folks,

My friends a Kyosho sent me information about a new track that opened up at the Kyosho America headquarters in Lake Forest California. Check out the attached image for more information.

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=29823&d=1273636272

herman
2010.05.12, 02:26 AM
thanks for the info... :D
how's it going tim? any of your friends attending this (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34202)?
sorry to be off topic... :D

Treadmule
2010.05.12, 09:41 AM
I went there this past Sunday, but the place was closed. I guess Mother's Day counts as a holiday.

Tim Johnson
2010.05.20, 10:29 PM
Anyone plan on going this weekend?

Hello Herman. :) Not from the states. But folks from Japan. :)

yasuji
2010.05.21, 06:25 PM
Anyone plan on going this weekend?

Hello Herman. :) Not from the states. But folks from Japan. :)

I WILL for a short while.... i wanna be there around 10 am till noon then i will head over to GYRO to check out there track! i will be there running my PNRacing MOD PanCar!:D

Tim Johnson
2010.06.20, 05:58 PM
I just stoped by today to check out the track. Man it is sure great! I ran a few laps with the CFO's car, and had some fun. I am going to start going every other Sunday. I hope to see you there! :)

KyoshoAmerica
2010.07.07, 06:57 PM
Hello everyone, just a reminder we are having our Grand Opening this weekend. We will have a race if we get enough people. Also for the month of July we will be waiving all practice fees so practice will be free.:D

herman
2010.07.07, 09:08 PM
great news...
it's pretty cool that a kyoshovp has dropped by to give us some info...

i sure do hope that you become a "regular" on these forums... wishing you a very warm welcome to the forums...:D

KyoshoAmerica
2010.07.09, 10:58 AM
Thanks for the welcome, yes I plan on being more active on here going forward.

Tomorrow is the official Grand Opening of R241. Our Race Software guys is unfortunately out sick today so we may not be able to run the race but we will still have Free practice and Free demo cars for those who would like to come by and give mini-Z's a try on the track. KO Propo will also be here unveiling some cool new stuff for the first time anywhere.

Hope to see you all their.

color01
2010.07.10, 07:49 AM
I am planning on coming today at around 2:30-ish and staying till you guys close -- I'm bringing a friend who's just getting started with Mini-Z's and could use some track time. :) I'm looking forward to it!

Treadmule
2010.07.19, 01:08 AM
I spent about 4 hours on this track today with my MR03. On my 3rd lap, while getting up to speed, the car traction rolled and snapped the SSG t-plate. I bought a set of FRP plates from the track's store and was soon back running laps. It is a very cool track; not RCP, but a kind of fine, dense carpet. The rails are made of wood and the cars can take a beating. The staff do not allow foam tires to be used, only rubber tires (PN or Atomic are ok, as well as other makes). Apparently. someone recently "greased" the track when using foam tires laced with (probably) WD40 and that caused them problems, so no foam tires any more. The track is open to the public only on Sundays, except holidays. The track is available to the public for event scheduling. Practice running is free of charge and there is a timing system. The staff is helpful and friendly and the place is clean and bright. I'll be going back as often as I can.

herman
2010.07.19, 01:20 AM
any additional pics??? :D

Treadmule
2010.07.19, 02:06 AM
any additional pics??? :D

Not this time, Herman. :o I'll see what I can do next week.

herman
2010.07.19, 09:47 PM
no worries... next week then... :D

Treadmule
2010.07.26, 12:12 AM
Kyosho's Route 241 Raceway photos - Sunday July 25, 2010 (http://gallery.me.com/larry.arnold/100180)

mugler
2010.07.26, 02:38 AM
Hey guys is the track open only on Sundays now or Saturdays too as it's mentioned on the flier from first post?

PS - Thanks for the pics....finally a look into the action at this track

herman
2010.07.26, 04:00 AM
just saw the pics... thanks for sharing... :D

MikeL
2010.07.27, 01:26 PM
wow those curbs are awesome, are they going to be for sale?

KyoshoAmerica
2010.07.27, 01:58 PM
:) Hello Everyone,

It looks like we will be taking a hiatus for about 8-10 weeks but are opening up back up late Sept. Early Oct.

We have a very small staff at KA and getting people to volunteer to work weekends during summer is getting increasingly difficult so instead of making the schedule bounce around anymore we are deciding it is best to give everyone a break and come back with things better organized and enhance some of things we have learned during the last 2.5 months.

We are also working on a schedule change to have possibly a week night open as well as Sunday's. With racing events held on various Saturdays

Again we will be re-opening in around 8-10 weeks with:

• New layout: More passing zones, new lower curbing for those that run bodies/ride height so low they literally slide around on the splitter during apex.

• New products: 241 Edition Mr-03 Chassis set, new bodies etc.

•*New Events: End of Summer Mini-Z Shoot Out, Fall dNaNo Throw Down New Rules and more details for each event will be posted soon.

• More surprises: Possible weekly fun racing, as well as other promotions extended exclusively for R241 customers.

All will be announced here and on our T*****r and F******k accounts as well.

herman
2010.07.29, 03:53 AM
New products: 241 Edition Mr-03 Chassis set, new bodies etc.

wondering what the 241 edition mr03 looks like... any pics
and the low down on the new bodies?

KyoshoAmerica
2010.08.03, 10:55 AM
wondering what the 241 edition mr03 looks like... any pics
and the low down on the new bodies?

The 241 Edition will be like our recent JSCC cup edition (http://www.kyosho.com/eng/products/rc/detail.html?product_id=106539) but Our version will be MM to better suit the US market.

As far as new bodies are concerned I can only say their will be at least four new styles announced this year and one is a Ferrari and one is a Honda model we do not have in the U.S. both will be racecars the others I cannot say at this time. We will also be releasing various new liveries of existing race vehicles. Plus the more popular race bodies will be produced at a larger rate so they will not be as hard to find anymore. We have also pressured Japan to please put a large priority on the handling of future bodies and not just the collectibility going forward.

arch2b
2010.08.03, 12:45 PM
fyi, the jpn blogs covered the u.s. market chassis ;)

lets keep this forum on topic ;) we have a kyosho vendor forum for product updates, news, etc. :p

has the track drawn good traffic this summer?

KyoshoAmerica
2010.08.05, 11:50 AM
Yes this summer we had several days where the pits were full.

Hopefully we will continue to grow from where we left off when we re-open in Oct.

Thanks for asking.

KyoshoAmerica
2010.09.22, 06:42 PM
Hello,

All Mini-Z Racers and Fans.

I am very excited to make a couple of announcements regarding R241.

The first is our schedule for R241 beginning Oct. 2nd. We will be open every Sunday from 11AM - 5PM sans holiday weekends. We will start with this and if needed possibly expand to another day possibly a week night.

The second is that ALL practice will be FREE going forward. So stop by for a run or two or stay the whole day and bring friends along to try it out all for free.

I am changing the layout this coming week and will post pics as soon as it is done.

We are also hoping to hold a Mini-Z race event at the end of Oct. and we will keep you all posted.

Thank you all for your patience during the off season.

KyoshoAmerica
2010.09.22, 06:53 PM
I also forgot to mention we have updated our website and a new R241 page can be found here: http://www.kyoshoamerica.com/R-241-Raceway-_c_15.html

KyoshoAmerica
2010.09.28, 04:33 PM
http://www.kyoshoamerica.com/assets/images/NewsSection/oct_2010_r241_lyt.jpg

Also we have opened up the tire rules to now allow Rubber tires by any manufacture as long as they do not contain silicone.

We hope to see many of you this Sunday for the re-opening. (11AM-5PM)

Remember all practice is FREE!!

yasuji
2010.09.28, 09:41 PM
http://www.kyoshoamerica.com/assets/images/NewsSection/oct_2010_r241_lyt.jpg

Also we have opened up the tire rules to now allow Rubber tires by any manufacture as long as they do not contain silicone.

We hope to see many of you this Sunday for the re-opening. (11AM-5PM)

Remember all practice is FREE!!

looks really similar to the layout @ this years KO GP ;)...it was a fun layout...
unfortunately i wont be able to make it there due to the pnwc regionals in san jose but ill pass it along to the other drivers who r not going to sj!:D

KyoshoAmerica
2010.09.29, 05:59 PM
looks really similar to the layout @ this years KO GP ;)...it was a fun layout...
unfortunately i wont be able to make it there due to the pnwc regionals in san jose but ill pass it along to the other drivers who r not going to sj!:D

Thank You!:D

KyoshoAmerica
2010.09.29, 06:03 PM
Thanks Yasuji!

Here is a photo taken today of the new layout in place.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs330.ash2/61033_122046707851256_100001377810926_127712_19454 79_n.jpg

KyoshoAmerica
2010.10.01, 06:08 PM
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=122552694467324

Treadmule
2010.10.01, 06:50 PM
Anti-clockwise? Maybe he's left handed :p

I'll be there Sunday, but why are there two rules #6?

nyourgrill
2010.10.01, 10:53 PM
Just curious....why not allow tires with silicone ? What tires do you suggest for a MR03 ?

mugler
2010.10.02, 04:33 PM
I'm planning to go on the 3rd or 4th Sunday in October. Will be taking my Zs and can't wait to run the dNano on this surface.

I heard silicone tires leave a residue which slicks up the track, rubber residue does not.

Treadmule
2010.10.03, 06:57 PM
I went to the track today and got 10 laps in before the steering pot on my Helios failed. :mad:

So, to round out my visit, I took a few more photos showing the new layout and some detail shots of the curbs. Kyosho VP Cliff Black said these curb pieces are sold by Kyosho as a set, but he wasn't sure if they had any in stock right now. Some detail shots of the track. (http://gallery.me.com/larry.arnold/100228)

They are running this track counter-clockwise and it's a challenging circuit to get right. The surface is very smooth, but not "rubbered in" yet so its lacking some grip at this point. As I mentioned previously, the wooden rails can put some hurt on the cars, but it helps that this more technical track means lower speeds and that helps.

There were only a couple other visitors there during the short spell I was present. I hope Kyosho has plans to promote the raceway vigorously in order to draw racers out in Southern Callifornia. I intend to be a regular (if I can keep my equipo working...)

Tim Johnson
2010.10.08, 04:34 PM
Who is going this weekend?

Treadmule
2010.10.08, 05:46 PM
Yeah, got my tx fixed, so I'll be there.

Treadmule
2010.10.10, 11:47 PM
I was at the track for about 3 hours today. Bruce Glick was the only other runner there. He was working on his MR-02 pan car, mounting his new lexan body & setup for the track.

I was testing tires & I still have more to try. So far, I like Atomic's 20 slicks (AR-002) in front & 20 grooved slicks (AR-006) in rear. Kyosho radials, 30 front & 20 rear work well too.

Tim Johnson
2010.10.11, 09:43 AM
That is disappointing. Come on folks! Kyosho has made a track at their USA headquarters. Please take the time give them a visit. The track is very nice, and food is a block away. I can only imagine that the welcome mat will be out for a short time, unless you show interest in the track.

Mead
2010.10.11, 10:32 AM
JMHO Fact is the old surface (and if it's anything like the new surface) was too slippery (that's why people were on the sauce ;) ). Mini-zers are set up for RCP and this new surface equals more tuning, not worth it for just one track :( ! If Kyosho was RCP there will be bigger turnout - guaranteed.

Tim Johnson
2010.10.11, 10:52 AM
That is good info Mead, I am sure Kyosho is checking this thread out.

IMO I really like the new surface Kyosho has come up with. It did not take much to adjust my cars. If you are not carful you can make your car traction roll. And that is without the use of tire sauce.

All that I ask, if give them a chance, and have an open mind. When racing other scale R/C Cars, it is common practice to change your setup from track to track. Also, you can use the Mini-z setup sheets to keep track of your setups.

yasuji
2010.10.11, 10:53 AM
JMHO Fact is the old surface (and if it's anything like the new surface) was too slippery (that's why people were on the sauce ;) ). Mini-zers are set up for RCP and this new surface equals more tuning, not worth it for just one track :( ! If Kyosho was RCP there will be bigger turnout - guaranteed.

idk ....the surface is carpet.. no one was using sauce... however rubber tires work ok on this surface .... but carpet racing tires are 10x better.... but it is a silicone tire there for it is not allowed.....i will be going there next sunday in hopes that they addressed the curbing issue...;)

mugler
2010.10.11, 05:00 PM
Planning to be there next Sunday as well for the first time! Gonna be a fun day :D

Regarding attendance a lot of planning & consistent long term promo work will need to happen for a core group to be showing up on a regular basis. Just because a track is open somewhere does not mean people will automatically start showing up. Mini-z attendance has it's own issues compared to other scales and promotion needs to be approached with those in mind.:)

Treadmule
2010.10.11, 07:04 PM
I live just a couple miles from this track, so I want to see it succeed & I agree it'll take promotional effort to do that. ! I'll even volunteer to help out, if they want. :eek:

See a few posts back where I provided a link to photos of the track and the curbing, if you missed it.

Here's a shot of a new IC tag I bought at the track yesterday and installed on the bottom of my MR-03 and then ran for about an hour. There's something on the track that's black and sticky and it coated the tag, as you can see in the pic.
I showed it to the staff guy on duty, but he couldn't offer any suggestions. I dunno what it is. :confused:

http://members.cox.net/35mm/Mini-Z/IC_Tag_241Raceway.jpg

cosmicsoul
2010.10.11, 07:15 PM
Whatever it is will probably come off with some type of motor cleaner. You may want to protect it with a clear plastic sheild like you would use on the screen of an I-phone or other smart device.

I have never encountered this problem, so I am just making this advice up as I type. Whatever it is probably won't keep the tag from working it will just look bad, unless it is some type of solvent that will eventually eat through the plastic and into the circutry of the tag:eek:.

Is that the same surface that they use on the Hobbytown DNANO tracks, 20 rears and 30 fronts seamed to work pretty good on that surface when I tried running my Z on that surface.

Good luck:)

EMU
2010.10.11, 07:31 PM
Could be the remains of tires worn into the track?

yasuji
2010.10.11, 08:44 PM
.... dont most atomic tires contain some level of silicone?...i may be wrong on this.... i haven used an atomic tire since 2007;)

EMU
2010.10.11, 11:11 PM
Grant, I know that some of the tires contain silicone, but beyond that, I dont know. :rolleyes: Many of the softer tires have silicone content to increase grip for carpet, which is what they primarily race in the Asian market.

How is the average racer going to know what tires are legal and not legal? R246 Raceway should put a list of legal tires if they are going to make such a restriction. So racers that come to race can know what they can or cannot use. Its not like most racers can tell what tires have silicone or not... is there a way to test for silicone that wont damage the tire?

Treadmule
2010.10.11, 11:39 PM
Cosmicsoul
Is that the same surface that they use on the Hobbytown DNANO tracks

According to Kyosho VP Cliff Black it's indoor-outdoor carpet they bought from the Home Depot store just a couple blocks away from the track. It's like putting green carpet. I don't know anything about Hobbytown tracks.

yasuji
.... dont most atomic tires contain some level of silicone?

EMU
How is the average racer going to know what tires are legal and not legal? R246 Raceway should put a list of legal tires if they are going to make such a restriction. So racers that come to race can know what they can or cannot use. Its not like most racers can tell what tires have silicone or not... is there a way to test for silicone that wont damage the tire?

Searching online I found 2 Hong Kong RC vendors that mention "Silicium Rubber" for some of the Atomic tires. That's the only reference I could find for anything related to tire compounds for Mini-z. (Ok, it wasn't an exhaustive search...). At the track, so far, it's been like the honor system. Nobody's checking tires up to this point, but there's been no real racing either; just running setup laps. Even so, EMU's point is totally valid. Who's to know and how? I ran maybe a dozen laps with those Atomic tires I mentioned, so could that be the crud that ended up on my tag? I wouldn't think that amount of running could leave that much residue, but maybe so.
I installed the tag after running those laps, btw.

EMU
2010.10.11, 11:48 PM
It might not be your crud that is on the tag... your ride height may be a little low for using the Kyosho tag, and it could be dragging on the track... picking up all of the rubber that has been laid out on the track. I dont know, just speculating :)

I know that the 10/20d ATM tires have silicone content... but dont know about the 30/40d. They may have some, but I cannot confirm as I do not know how to test for silicone content. It is my assumption that Atomic adjusts the softness by introducing more silicone to the compound displacing the natural rubber and making the tire more compliant with the racing surface (what you want on carpet). Again, this is my assumption, and not based on any fact. The Atomic 8d rear tires, are designed for RCP and are a non silicone rear tire, that I know. The 6d are a silicone carpet tire. Hope this info helps.

Treadmule
2010.10.12, 12:11 AM
It might not be your crud that is on the tag... your ride height may be a little low for using the Kyosho tag, and it could be dragging on the track... picking up all of the rubber that has been laid out on the track. I dont know, just speculating :)

You're probably right about that. So, the track's getting rubbered in and that's a good thing. But I am bummed that the Atomic tires are probably outlawed because they had great grip and felt so good. I have more tires to test, but I don't know what's in 'em.

yasuji
2010.10.12, 12:25 AM
You're probably right about that. So, the track's getting rubbered in and that's a good thing. But I am bummed that the Atomic tires are probably outlawed because they had great grip and felt so good. I have more tires to test, but I don't know what's in 'em.

i was the driver who did the apparent "greasing" of the track!:o
using pn carpet tires and kyosho mt tires.... both with high silicone content!
i was about .5 sec faster than the prev rubber tires 30/20 combo and way more consistent but after that sunday i was informed that i had ruined the track
.... so in my following visits to the track i ran only kyosho tires :p

Treadmule
2010.10.12, 12:28 AM
:D Funny! I thought it was Bruce with his Ozone foamies

yasuji
2010.10.12, 12:55 AM
:D Funny! I thought it was Bruce with his Ozone foamies

i told the guy @ the track that it was me and i apologized:o

Treadmule
2010.10.12, 01:03 AM
Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean it was funny that you did it, but that I had the wrong guy pegged.

What does the silicone do to the track? Make it slippery for rubber tires?

yasuji
2010.10.12, 01:16 AM
Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean it was funny that you did it, but that I had the wrong guy pegged.

What does the silicone do to the track? Make it slippery for rubber tires?

yeah i guess it does the same thing as a rubber tire...it leaves a groove... and rubber tires dont like it
after the incident happened i went back and i was able to go a little quicker than i did before using rubber tires... the track felt the same to me as the first time i had been there:D

Treadmule
2010.10.12, 01:24 AM
I wonder if that track gets any use other than the regular Sunday drivers and Saturday special events. Do you think Kyosho employees use it during the week or maybe special invited guests? Maybe other scales? It would seem a waste of potential to use it only 1 or 2 days a week.

yasuji
2010.10.12, 01:26 AM
I wonder if that track gets any use other than the regular Sunday drivers and Saturday special events. Do you think Kyosho employees use it during the week or maybe special invited guests? Maybe other scales?

im sure they do....

EMU
2010.10.12, 03:13 AM
I would think that the silicone rubber would gum up the track more than standard rubber, which is why they dont want them used on the track. RCP is black, so you cant see the tire residue on the track as much...

I didnt know that the MT tire was silicone based... thanks for the info ;)

Tim Johnson
2010.10.12, 09:56 AM
I wonder if that track gets any use other than the regular Sunday drivers and Saturday special events. Do you think Kyosho employees use it during the week or maybe special invited guests? Maybe other scales? It would seem a waste of potential to use it only 1 or 2 days a week.

Yes, It does get used. I am not sure how much now. But when I worked there I made sure to have a Mini-Z track setup in that room. A few of the employees would have after hours races just for fun.

hrdrvr
2010.10.12, 12:50 PM
We raced on industrial carpet for almost a year. We used ATM and PN carpet tires and there was never any residue left over from them.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v618/freekfornature/RCs/tracks/2007-07-24003.jpg

yasuji
2010.10.14, 10:55 AM
ok me and a few of the local drivers will be headed down there this sunday! if enough driver show up i will talk to the kyosho guys there to run some club racing on sun!come on down and drive some thing different! carpet.... counterclockwise.....:cool:

mugler
2010.10.14, 02:55 PM
ok me and a few of the local drivers will be headed down there this sunday! if enough driver show up i will talk to the kyosho guys there to run some club racing on sun!come on down and drive some thing different! carpet.... counterclockwise.....:cool:

Yes Sir 02-03 & awd racing would be fun, do they rent out the id tags? ...and also for giggles I'll have my dNanao with me also, so pack it if you have it, surface should be good to run on. If you have an F1 bring it, I'll be doing some laps with that too.

Treadmule
2010.10.14, 04:06 PM
I expect to be the lone runner in the "Bone Stock" (aside from bearings and tires...) class with my new MR-03. Otherwise, I'll try to stay out of everybody's way :eek:.

I don't think they rent the tags, but you can buy one ... $36.99 at the store. :)

mugler
2010.10.14, 05:30 PM
I expect to be the lone runner in the "Bone Stock" (aside from bearings and tires...) class with my new MR-03. Otherwise, I'll try to stay out of everybody's way :eek:.

I don't think they rent the tags, but you can buy one ... $36.99 at the store. :)

Bone stock is good! Tires are a huge portion of the tuning game ...it's gonna be fun no matter what.:D

KyoshoAmerica
2010.10.15, 04:35 PM
Some response some of the questions.

Mini-Z's are designed for use on multiple surfaces and to be honest the majority or our Mini-Z customers do not run them on formal tracks. I am sorry if this is off putting to the diehards but we simply wish to promote Mini-Z as something that everyone can enjoy for both young and old, rookie and veteran. Tim is correct that with very little adjustment you can still get the car to have such a high grip level that it will traction roll on our surface.

The residue that is showing up on the timing tags is tire dust and it appears your ride height is too low and you are rubbing the tag on the surface. This create a friction which causes enough heat to melt the tire dust to your tires. I have noticed this happening on my F-1 car which runs the tag very low and when I adjusted the ride height slightly it stopped happening I would suggest just simply rubbing it off with a pencil erasure and not using any chemical on it or scraping as you could cause damage to the tag. THis happens of some tires as well you get "marbles" or "clag" what I do is simply take the tire off the rim tun it inside out and rub it against itself and it rolls off leaving a clean fresh rubber surface on the face of the tire when re-installed. for dNaNo's this is almost a tuning element. Car loose rub out the rear , car pushing rub out the fronts car needs more traction rub out front and back etc.

Speaking of rubber...regarding the Rubber tire only rule, we do not allow the silicone tires because they are not as widely available as the rubber only tires and unfortunately you cannot run both tires as the silicone tires grease the track for those running rubber. We also do not want people using sauce. A Mini-Z veteran should have the tuning skills to get good performance out of any situation with out the need of traction sauce.

The track does get some use other then Sundays actually. Some employees run it during their lunch hours as well as sometimes after work. We also use it for testing on occasion. We have had VIP's come by to run as well a couple of times. We would like to have R-241 open more frequently but unfortunately we do not have a very large staff at Kyosho America so finding staff to run the track has proven harder then projected.

RCP vs.Carpet...we used to have the big RCP track that Tim spoke of but when the dNaNo project came about and it was deemed that RCP was not a good surface for dNaNo due to the seems. We developed the panel tracks that are all over the country now. Also we began to use these panels instead of RCP for trade show and demo tracks and after seeing the overwhelming positive response and feedback we got from customers on how much they preferred the carpet surface over the RCP we felt it was a good time to make the transition. I understand there are those that feel RCP is the only way to go and we respect this and there are many RCP tracks around Southern California I urge you to help keep them going. We however will not be running RCP at R-241.

If any group of racers that has timing tags wants us to make an impromptu fun race for them we are more then happy to do so in the closing hours of practice. We unfortunately at this time do not have rental tags but compared to other timing tags they are fairly cheap especially when you consider the timing loop can be purchased for less then $200 and the software we use ( Z-round) is free to download for everyone. Our system does not have any issue with voltage, harming your PCB, or infrared light, so it can be used at home or may other situation. It can also be run with Mini-Z's and dNaNo's running together. We really feel it is the best most cost effective system out there.

Again we want to bring in new racers to our hobby and to do so we need to provide an experience that is fun, fair and has an easy point of entry. Over powered frankenstein cars with hard to find or unique components does not help grow the hobby it only serves to create an elitist faction that drives away new racers. This has been the cause of death to more tracks of every scale then anything else I have seen in my short 19 years in the hobby. There is room for all of us and let us all remember that if there is nobody else left to race against with then there is no more racing.

We appreciate all feedback and will continue to consider all options.

Thank you, we hope to see many of you in the coming weeks.
:)

color01
2010.10.15, 09:06 PM
Does anyone pass through Pasadena on their trip to R241? I'd like to have a go at this track sometime but taking the bus all the way down to Lake Forest isn't exactly practical. :o

mugler
2010.10.16, 01:59 AM
Brian we met last week at PN briefly, this is Alex. I could go through Pasadena. PM me your address and contact info and I'll pick you up @10am on Sunday. I guess track opens at 11.

EMU
2010.10.16, 02:37 AM
Can you mount the cards elsewhere in the body, or does it have to be under the chassis?

yasuji
2010.10.16, 10:29 AM
the ic tag is a non issue.... if rubs... raise the ride ht i run the tag under my pancar wih no proabs.... it drags a little....
but nothing i really notice!
:D

HaCo
2010.10.16, 12:36 PM
Could someone provide a link to the surface that is used, so I can find it in Europe as well?
How does the dNano run on it?
Grtz

arch2b
2010.10.16, 10:04 PM
Can you mount the cards elsewhere in the body, or does it have to be under the chassis?

one of the faults of the kyo ribbon has been the close proximity required for the kyo rfid tag. at least this has been the common experience with the kyo home timing system with dnano and mini-z with kyo rfid tags and generic rfid tags. the kyo rfid tags have also been reported to be very fragile so be cautious in cleaning them. in my experience with the system, the rfid tag must be on the bottom to pick up reliably. the rcp tile is at times to thick of a separation depending on the rfid tag being used. i have both the kyo home system and the core analog system (kyo system is built off the core analog tech, right from core analog, see the core analog vendor forum here for reference is interested).

there is plenty of this systems feedback and review in dnano circles btw.

perhaps kyo usa has a commercial version? any particular reason you are using 3rd party software? we also know from the kyo home system dnano usage that the feedback for the kyo software has not been kind. most non ht/usa locations use alternative software selection.

curious, have you tried using generic rfid tags with the software you are using? i realize it kind of flies in the face of making sales on the kyo branded rfid tags but lets be honest, there is a healthy profit margin on these considering the bulk price point of the rfid tags (less than a dollar each). unless there are complex and laborious programming tasks in the processing of the rfid tags prior to release which could account for some of the mark up. i have never gotten a response as to why these cost so much and or what production requirements make them so expensive? even core analog doesn't charge that much for his original spec rfid tags.

yasuji
2010.10.17, 12:01 PM
so as far as i know there will be quite a few local miniz guys there today!
alex
brian
bob
chad
opi
larry
myself
maybe
bruce and gianno
see u @ the track!

arch2b
2010.10.17, 12:13 PM
thats a nice size crowd:)

Tim Johnson
2010.10.17, 04:45 PM
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs782.snc4/66282_126462144076379_100001377810926_146726_50469 45_n.jpg

color01
2010.10.17, 10:10 PM
Hey, I'm in that picture. :)

Today's the first time I drove on the R241 track, and it's a very interesting drive indeed. :eek:

First off: the wooden walls scared the CRAP out of me. I was one of the first guys to put the car down on the track, and 1) crashes sound real bad and 2) the first car on the track seems to get the most grease stuck in the tire treads. I had crap for grip, front or rear, for the first 15 minutes. Also managed to crack my front diffuser during this time (thankfully the GT1 did not crack).

A good tire setup for the carpet is K30 front, K20 rear. Radial or slick is fine, I think, the Mod cars used radials but I got sufficient traction with K20 slicks in the rear. My PN tires did not work well at all, I think the carcass is too stiff to bite well into the soft carpet.

Secondly: Once we had traction, the cars ride pretty well. Traction on the carpet is NOT as high as your average RCP track, it's about the same as a slippery RCP track, but VERY smooth. The cars don't jump and skip over RCP tile gaps, as there are none. You can hit the same line lap after lap after lap once you have grip -- very consistent. You can set the ride height very low and get away with it (unless you're running the Kyosho IC tags). Low grip also means you have to set the car up soft, Opi and I went to PN G10 #3 T-plates and the softest front springs available (PN Orange, for MR03's) to get proper traction. Speeds are lower so there's no excessive body roll, no traction roll, and we made full use of the softer setting's increased mechanical grip. Once we had the cars dialed in -- remember to scrape the gunk off your tires, I forgot and had a ball of a time trying to diagnose it! -- it was a very fun track to drive, not frustrating at all. You also don't get RCP dust stuck to your car, so if you don't crash you honestly don't need to do a whole lot of maintenance to your car across runs.

Thirdly: The nice thing about the consistent surface is that you don't meet the walls as often, which is REALLY important because those walls will kill your car. Opi cracked his F430 and mine is showing some wear in the front clip area. My 911 GT1 is also showing wear in the front clip area, I'm gonna have to fix it before it blows out. I also curb-hopped my car several times on accident and on purpose, it's far too easy and made for some dangerous incidents on the track.



Overall, I'm half-impressed and half-disappointed with the track, summing out to perfectly neutral. :p Once Kyosho fixes the rails/walls with a better solution, e.g. plastic-covered foam bars, I will be very impressed and would possibly lobby for this surface to be used more often. It's a nice divergence from what we're used to driving on.

yasuji
2010.10.17, 10:47 PM
had a n awesome time today as chad and i took turns lowering the lap record numerous times... ultimately settling with Chad running a 9.21 and myself @9.26...running gtmod with good dicing between the 2 of us!:D
counterclockwise took a little getting used to.... and those curbs....launching my mod car clear across the track narrowly missing other cars @ times... and doing 50/50 grinds on the rails....
the first turn sweeper is the narrowest part of the track and i often ran in to the outside wall making awful sounds.... esp when the rear tires start to loose grip....
i do like the surface....it is smooth....but it lacks the grip of rcp:) requiring me to have to work on a smoother driving style!
;)

Treadmule
2010.10.18, 01:12 AM
A few photos from today.

http://members.cox.net/35mm/Mini-Z/7-up.jpg
L-R: Grant, Bob, Tak, Chad, Brian, Opi, Alex

http://members.cox.net/35mm/Mini-Z/Grins.jpg
Bob & Chad dicin'.

http://members.cox.net/35mm/Mini-Z/Color01.jpg
Brian's pit box is a busy place.

http://members.cox.net/35mm/Mini-Z/T&S.jpg
Grant & Chad traded lap record times for the new layout most of the afternoon. This is a view late in the day before Chad took final honors. I don't know how I got that 4th fastest lap time with my box stock MR-03. Probably happened when I jumped a wall into oncoming traffic and did a quick yewie to get back to the stripe. :)

I'll put up some video and more pix as soon as I get time.

Ancient Artist
2010.10.18, 09:34 PM
Cosmicsoul


According to Kyosho VP Cliff Black it's indoor-outdoor carpet they bought from the Home Depot store just a couple blocks away from the track. It's like putting green carpet. I don't know anything about Hobbytown tracks.


Can anyone tell me the exact carpet type/name this is at Home Depot and/or the Home Depot SKU# of the carpet itself?

I remember reading it somewhere else but can't seem to find it now.

I have a friend that's looking to lay down some indoor-outdoor carpet in his basement because he has had occasional water issues, so he doesn't want to use regular indoor carpet. We thought it if he used that it could double as a nice miniz/dnano track.
BTW- That part of the plan is highly confidential-in other words we aren't telling that part to his wife! LOL :D

Any help would be appreciated....

cosmicsoul
2010.10.19, 08:17 PM
Cool pictures, glad to see the track getting some good use. Chad and Grant are definately smooth and FASST.

Tim Johnson
2010.10.21, 01:25 AM
Here is your chance to get that chassis for a "bro-deal" price!

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs763.snc4/66371_127265387329388_100001377810926_149673_44465 39_n.jpg

bermbuster
2010.10.21, 06:01 AM
Here is your chance to get that chassis for a "bro-deal" price!

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs763.snc4/66371_127265387329388_100001377810926_149673_44465 39_n.jpg

Kyosho needs a warehouse on the East Coast.....:D

EMU
2010.10.21, 12:22 PM
Kyosho needs a warehouse on the East Coast.....:D

Northern NJ/Metro NY would be ideal :p

Treadmule
2010.10.21, 02:50 PM
Look here (http://gallery.me.com/larry.arnold/100243) for photos from this past Sunday at Route 241 Raceway

Look here (http://gallery.me.com/larry.arnold/100248) for the video.

arch2b
2010.10.21, 04:40 PM
Kyosho needs a warehouse on the East Coast.....:D

yeah, great deals for those lucky enough to be local. be prepaired to camp out as you can gaurantee local shops will send people to buy up clearanced items for higher profit resale. it is getting close to holiday shopping time and stores will want to stock up on items. especially those they know they can make more money on having paid less for them. UNLESS the never available to the consumer pricing is just distributor pricing in which case it's still a good deal for the consumer but no real motivation for shops to take advantage of.

Mead
2010.10.21, 09:40 PM
Look here (http://gallery.me.com/larry.arnold/100243) for photos from this past Sunday at Route 241 Raceway

Look here (http://gallery.me.com/larry.arnold/100248) for the video.

Thanks, great coverage - looked like it was a lot of fun.

KyoshoAmerica
2010.10.26, 10:56 AM
Can anyone tell me the exact carpet type/name this is at Home Depot and/or the Home Depot SKU# of the carpet itself?

I remember reading it somewhere else but can't seem to find it now.

I have a friend that's looking to lay down some indoor-outdoor carpet in his basement because he has had occasional water issues, so he doesn't want to use regular indoor carpet. We thought it if he used that it could double as a nice miniz/dnano track.
BTW- That part of the plan is highly confidential-in other words we aren't telling that part to his wife! LOL :D

Any help would be appreciated....

The carpet we used was custom ordered to get the black color but we did buy the same carpet in brown at Home Depot which we used in testing before going to the custom ordered black. It is a indoor outdoor putting green carpet made for use on patio's etc. The benefit in using putting green carpet is it is not only durable but more important is unidirectional so the cars will not wander like on most traditional office carpet. Ozite can be used inddoors as it is also unidirectional It is primarily used as a carpeting for Automobile trunks and speaker boxes. The backer is stretchable and very pliable. We did not go with Ozite as it wears out too fast and is also pricey. Our carpet if I remember correctly was around $0.36 per foot (12' wide roll).

KyoshoAmerica
2010.10.26, 10:58 AM
Just a reminder the track will be closed this Sunday due to Halloween. We will be open next Sunday as scheduled.

trl
2010.11.03, 08:26 PM
Here is your chance to get that chassis for a "bro-deal" price!

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs763.snc4/66371_127265387329388_100001377810926_149673_44465 39_n.jpg

Does anyone know what's up for sale? I'm looking for 03 ready sets, 2.4, replacement parts. I dont want to drive all the way down there and only find planes and helicopters :o

Tim Johnson
2010.11.19, 12:00 PM
The track will be open this Sunday. :) Who is going this Sunday? Time to have a bit of fun. May be if we get enough people we can get a race together. :) Who is game?!

trl
2010.11.19, 01:00 PM
Hmmm, there's a new November layout too :)

ChiMiniRc
2010.11.19, 01:12 PM
For those that have raced here, does the 4 inch lift for the drivers really make a difference? Or it more for just indicating where folks should stand?


We've been expanding the size of our track layout and are beggining to run into issues where it is hard to see the car on all spots of the track. My venue isn't full time so building a drivers stand isn't an option. But I don't want something so high that liability becomes a problem.

Tim Johnson
2010.11.19, 05:06 PM
That little bit can make a difference. Also it helps keep drivers in the same spot, and not blocking each others view of the track.

Tim Johnson
2010.11.20, 09:29 AM
No go for this weekend guys?

KyoshoAmerica
2010.11.30, 02:21 PM
The boxes we use serve two purposes. 1. To give the drivers a place of authority when driving so as people walk through they understand that this person is driving and to please not interrupt them. 2. Also this promotes standing in a spot that will not block the view of the track from other drivers.

KyoshoAmerica
2010.11.30, 02:24 PM
Hi Mini-Z and dNaNo fans we will be back open and running this Sunday ( We were closed last weekend due to Thanksgiving) .

We have modified the layout a bit (Will be posted on the KA website and f******k tomorrow.) Hope to see you all out here!

KyoshoAmerica
2010.12.02, 12:57 PM
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs733.ash1/162723_137280272994566_100001377810926_195215_2084 118_n.jpg

Tim Johnson
2010.12.04, 01:42 AM
The track will be open again this weekend. Who is going?

greenepa76
2010.12.07, 09:51 PM
I should be there. Was there last weekend chatting up with KyoshoVP.

color01
2010.12.08, 06:33 AM
I'll be on a plane to Hong Kong to tear it up with the carpet racers over there -- by the time I get back I expect to have perfected my carpet setup. See you guys after Xmas!

Davey G
2010.12.08, 09:28 AM
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs733.ash1/162723_137280272994566_100001377810926_195215_2084 118_n.jpg

Are the "curbs" for sale from Kyosho? Very interested in incorporating these into an RCP layout. THanks...

KyoshoAmerica
2010.12.08, 01:20 PM
The small plastic candy cane corners are made by Kyosho and I will need to check if they are still in stock, the other corner curbs were designed by myself and are actually hand made by one of our team drivers. His name is Jeff Blackburn if you would like I can put you in touch and he can give you a quote.

mdowney
2010.12.08, 01:59 PM
Here's the guy KyoshoVP is talking about. He posted this link on RCTech a while back. Looks like really nice work. We may pick one up for our office's game room.
http://www.blackburncustomwoodwork.com/

mini-z
2010.12.08, 06:41 PM
The small plastic candy cane corners are made by Kyosho and I will need to check if they are still in stock...

Are they those original interlocking ones from back in the early MR-01 days?! I still have some of those - we used to set them up on the regular office carpet back in the day, before RCP etc... :D

yasuji
2010.12.08, 09:08 PM
Are they those original interlocking ones from back in the early MR-01 days?! I still have some of those - we used to set them up on the regular office carpet back in the day, before RCP etc... :D

yup they r the interlocking ones....they work good as launch ramps! never knew i could 50/50 grind a mini z!:D

greenepa76
2010.12.13, 02:01 AM
Here's a quick look at the December layout. I ran with a bunch of work buddies from Honda. We have a mini z club at work with track and decided to head out here without work time constraints:) Spent a solid 3 hours here.

My car is really loose on this surface and I couldn't use the 9 tooth pinion because the board would cut out after the FET upgrades. It has too much acceleration and the gear diff allows it to get a little wiggly out of the turns. Two of the stock 3010's burnt out so I replaced them with 4562's? The rest of the car specs are in the video incase you're wondering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1AO6oS5sko

SaiTam
2010.12.14, 11:15 AM
After the tires get warmed does traction get any better?

What do you guys use to clean tires there?

yasuji
2010.12.14, 11:36 AM
After the tires get warmed does traction get any better?

What do you guys use to clean tires there?

there is only one tire combo that works there k20 radial r and k30 radial fr
and even @ that it wears on a mod car and u need to use simple green to clean the tires!chad and i both tried every rubber tie combo we had....
traction stays consistent maybe even gets less as u drive a session...

SaiTam
2010.12.14, 12:18 PM
Do the tires or carpet get gooey after extended use?
How about the tendency of traction roll on this type of carpet?

Also from my limited experience on carpet racing, gear diffs don't work, correct?

There is a carpet track coming soon over here, that's why I'm asking.

greenepa76
2010.12.14, 02:57 PM
The carpet doesn't get gooey, but the bottom of the car gets a sticky rubber film on it from the worn in rubber and the heat build up I guess from areas of bottom chassis dragging or rubbing the carpet surface. I agree with yasuji with the tires loosing some traction. I started with K20 radials in the rear and PN 20's up front. As the day went by towards the end, I ended switching to PN 15's up front and softer green springs. I started with purple springs and 20's in the front.

My AWD's both use K20's in the rear and K30's up front, both slicks. PN Yellow springs up front and light blue in the rear with ball diffs all around. I like to throttle steer, but the MR03 was a handful. The AWD's felt better on the looser surface. I just need more track time, but at least this surface is consistent unlike RCP. Might be there this Sunday again before end of the year.

greenepa76
2010.12.14, 03:09 PM
Do the tires or carpet get gooey after extended use?
How about the tendency of traction roll on this type of carpet?

Also from my limited experience on carpet racing, gear diffs don't work, correct?

There is a carpet track coming soon over here, that's why I'm asking.

The only cars that rolled were the narrow cars with the same rubber hitting turns at too much speed and angles. This carpet stuff is loose! Why wouldn't a gear diff work? You don't loose power, but you have to be better on the throttle out of turns. You can use different greases to tune the diff action like 10th scale cars. Its done in off road racing all the time. I'm not that great at driving, but I doubt the ball diff will make that much of a difference if I can't handle the car's power to begin with or clean up my driving style. It works well as a limited slip and keeps from stripping or breaking axles in the AWD's.

yasuji
2010.12.14, 06:47 PM
Do the tires or carpet get gooey after extended use?
How about the tendency of traction roll on this type of carpet?

Also from my limited experience on carpet racing, gear diffs don't work, correct?

There is a carpet track coming soon over here, that's why I'm asking.

it will depend on the rules that the track has... if it is rubber tires only.... traction roll will not be an issue....if u r allowed the use oc CARPET RACING TIRES... it will be the grippiest thing on the planet....carpet tires were .5 sec faster on the 241 track... but it made for a slicker surface for the rubber tires... so it has been BANNED.. but even with the carpet tire i had no issue with traction roll with full size tires!

KyoshoAmerica
2010.12.21, 11:47 AM
Hello to all our local racers.

R-241 will be closed tis Sunday and next due to the holidays of Xmas and New Years.

We will be back up and running on the 8th of January.

Also due to increased traffic we be planning an event soon.

Will keep you posted here and on our Kyosho f******k page.

Thnx!

Everyone have a safe and Happy Holiday!

KyoshoAmerica
2011.01.04, 01:11 PM
Hello All So Cal Mini'Z Fans,

Hope your Holiday Season was a good one. R241 Raceway will be back open 11AM-5PM every Sunday going forward. Hope to see many of you out here this weekend.

greenepa76
2011.01.17, 10:04 AM
Has anyone been out here lately? I'm thinking of heading out with some co-workers this Sunday, the 23. Has the layout changed or still same as December layout?

Speednminiz
2011.01.22, 06:24 PM
The carpet we used was custom ordered to get the black color but we did buy the same carpet in brown at Home Depot which we used in testing before going to the custom ordered black. It is a indoor outdoor putting green carpet made for use on patio's etc. The benefit in using putting green carpet is it is not only durable but more important is unidirectional so the cars will not wander like on most traditional office carpet. Ozite can be used inddoors as it is also unidirectional It is primarily used as a carpeting for Automobile trunks and speaker boxes. The backer is stretchable and very pliable. We did not go with Ozite as it wears out too fast and is also pricey. Our carpet if I remember correctly was around $0.36 per foot (12' wide roll).

Hey there, I've gone to my local Home Depot and didn't find anything that seemed suitable. Could you be more specific on the name or SKU # please. I would like to build a small track for my nephews and I. Thanks

Cherub1m
2011.02.07, 10:02 PM
Hey there, I've gone to my local Home Depot and didn't find anything that seemed suitable. Could you be more specific on the name or SKU # please. I would like to build a small track for my nephews and I. Thanks

Any update on that information?

cruizinrc
2011.02.07, 10:12 PM
Phillip I talked to guy I got carpet from he said you can buy it as long as you Need 12 feet wide by what ever size you need long
Ron

KyoshoAmerica
2011.04.22, 11:07 AM
Carpets will differ slightly but we found several brands that work excellent, The main thing you want to find is a carpet that has not bias which is why putting green or mini golf carpet is ideal as it has no bias. I do not have exact brands as it has been years since we have ordered it and the but I know Shaw is a manufacture that made a selection that worked and they are sold nationwide. Periodically when I find myself in a major hardware store Lowe's etc. I check out the carpets and often find good options either on the big roles or in the square samples to be ordered. We originally found our carpet on the big rolls bought some for testing then when we went back they did not have to roll anymore but we found the same carpet on the big swatches which once we ordered and confirmed was the same track down the manufacturer to order it in bulk and in black.

KyoshoAmerica
2011.04.22, 11:08 AM
Just a reminder to all our local Mini-Z Racers, R-241 will be closed this Sunday in observance of Easter Sunday. We will be back on Spring Schedule ( 2nd and 4th Sun. 11-4PM) on the 14th of May. We are also hoping to announce an event or two soon as well. Thank You.

trl
2011.05.03, 06:56 PM
Local SoCal Mini-Z racers...

A few guys from work are heading out to Kyosho Track this Sunday May 8th.

More the merrier :)

TL

greenepa76
2011.05.03, 11:16 PM
I'm bringing my mom to the track. I have a spare TX and car for her:D

KyoshoAmerica
2011.05.05, 04:27 PM
Just a reminder we will be open for practice this Sunday May the 8th and if you guys want to run together in a race format we can set up quick races for you as well. Come out and enjoy, track will be open from 11AM-4PM Practice as always is free.

trl
2011.06.07, 10:40 AM
Just a reminder we will be open for practice this Sunday May the 8th and if you guys want to run together in a race format we can set up quick races for you as well. Come out and enjoy, track will be open from 11AM-4PM Practice as always is free.

Yes, a big thanks to all the hard working Kyosho staff for opening and maintaining the beautiful Mini-Z track, I'm positive So Cal Mini-Zers appreciate your hard efforts.

As for this Sunday, June 12, another strong turnout is expected :D

KyoshoAmerica
2011.06.14, 12:33 PM
THanks to all who came out this past sunday heard there was a great crowd.

We will FINALLY be updating the layout to the track and once the layout is complete I will post it here as well as the KA site. Next day for practice will be next Sunday the 26th.

We are hoping to have some organized racing events coming up in the summer. I will let everyone now as soon as we have something organized both here and on the R241 page on the KA site.

bermbuster
2011.06.15, 12:26 AM
THanks to all who came out this past sunday heard there was a great crowd.

We will FINALLY be updating the layout to the track and once the layout is complete I will post it here as well as the KA site. Next day for practice will be next Sunday the 26th.

We are hoping to have some organized racing events coming up in the summer. I will let everyone now as soon as we have something organized both here and on the R241 page on the KA site.
I cant wait....Im moving to Irvine....from metro NYC
I have been racing on the same carpet at Cruzin w RCs....:cool:

greenepa76
2011.06.19, 02:31 PM
Bermbuster, are you here already? PM me to let me know when you're thinking about heading to R241 so that way you'll have company.

greenepa76
2011.06.23, 09:49 AM
Looks like the Honda mini z group is scheduling another trip for this Sunday. Should be another fun day of stock spec racing. I'm going to have mini z overload this weekend since PN regional even is on Saturday, but the Z's are getting abused this weekend back to back!

mugler
2011.06.23, 06:37 PM
Looks like the Honda mini z group is scheduling another trip for this Sunday. Should be another fun day of stock spec racing. I'm going to have mini z overload this weekend since PN regional even is on Saturday, but the Z's are getting abused this weekend back to back!

LOL...same thing here, I'll see you on Saturday & I also will try to go in and do some TNT on Friday since haven't touch my cars for 2 weeks now and have to sort out my F1 for the first time! running 2wd stock and F1.

KyoshoAmerica
2011.06.24, 11:59 AM
http://www.kyoshoamerica.com/assets/images/homepages/sum_shootout.gif

trl
2011.06.24, 01:12 PM
Aww Yeah :cool:

mugler
2011.06.24, 02:04 PM
http://www.kyoshoamerica.com/assets/images/homepages/sum_shootout.gif

Excellent!

bermbuster
2011.06.25, 06:51 AM
Excellent!

Im in.....
what classes....:cool:

yasuji
2011.06.25, 09:38 AM
Im in.....
what classes....:cool:
kyosho box stk open gtstock and open gtmod :D

trl
2011.06.25, 04:04 PM
:cool: Can we make it Giroz friendly too?

yasuji
2011.06.25, 08:25 PM
:cool: Can we make it Giroz friendly too?

no sorry... kyosho ics only!

bermbuster
2011.06.25, 10:48 PM
no sorry... kyosho ics only!

ics is for Dnanos....:cool:
I lap is for mini z.......:D




I know ics is used on mini z s too.......;)

yasuji
2011.06.26, 02:32 AM
ics is for Dnanos....:cool:
I lap is for mini z.......:D




I know ics is used on mini z s too.......;)

ilap is way to big for mini-z.....lol

KyoshoAmerica
2011.06.28, 10:58 AM
no sorry... kyosho ics only!

We will have special pricing (i.e. super cheap) pricing on iC tags the day of the race available one per each paid entry.

Also I am hoping to have the race rules posted by end of day today.

KyoshoAmerica
2011.06.29, 03:50 PM
Rules have been updates please view further down this thread.

bermbuster
2011.06.29, 04:03 PM
Here is the first draft of the rules some slight changes may happen between now and the event. If anything changes it will be sooner then later and posted here and on the Kyosho America website.

Kyosho Summer Shoot Out Rules. (Preliminary Ver. 1.0)

BOX STOCK (Featured Class)
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, & MR-03 Mini-Z Chassis with original kit motor. Chassis can be any configuration including LM. Body and wheels must match those that came on original kit. (i.e. no mix and match wheels and offsets.)

• No chassis, ESC or body modification allowed (exception hole may be drilled in rear deck lid of Ferrari F355 to allow for damper)

The only Kyosho option parts allowed are the following:
• Any Kyosho Brand Rubber tire (No silicone based tires allowed)
• Ball Bearings (No.MZW1)
• Ball Diff (No.MZW1)
• Carbon T-bar (No.MZW403, No.MZW404)
• Rear damper (No.MZW207)
• No Gyro Allowed


GT Stock
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, & MR-03 Mini-Z Chassis. Chassis can be any configuration including LM.

• Must use original kit motor.
• Any option part Kyosho or aftermarket can be used.
• Any rubber tire (none silicone based) can be used.
• No Gyro Allowed



GT Mod
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, & MR-03 Mini-Z Chassis. Chassis can be any configuration including LM.

• Any option part Kyosho or aftermarket can be used.
• Any rubber tire Kyosho or aftermarket (none silicone based) can be used.
• Any motor Kyosho or aftermarket can be used.

The rules look great. I have one suggestion. The GT stock class. Your allowing aftermarket parts and most racers use aftermarket motor pods.
The stock motor has no holes for mounting to a motor pod. Maybe you should offer a handout motor that utilizes holes for mounting. This way everybody can compete.

yasuji
2011.06.29, 10:47 PM
Here is the first draft of the rules some slight changes may happen between now and the event. If anything changes it will be sooner then later and posted here and on the Kyosho America website.

Kyosho Summer Shoot Out Rules. (Preliminary Ver. 1.0)

BOX STOCK (Featured Class)
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, & MR-03 Mini-Z Chassis with original kit motor. Chassis can be any configuration including LM. Body and wheels must match those that came on original kit. (i.e. no mix and match wheels and offsets.)

• No chassis, ESC or body modification allowed (exception hole may be drilled in rear deck lid of Ferrari F355 to allow for damper)

The only Kyosho option parts allowed are the following:
• Any Kyosho Brand Rubber tire (No silicone based tires allowed)
• Ball Bearings (No.MZW1)
• Ball Diff (No.MZW1)
• Carbon T-bar (No.MZW403, No.MZW404)
• Rear damper (No.MZW207)
• No Gyro Allowed


GT Stock
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, & MR-03 Mini-Z Chassis. Chassis can be any configuration including LM.

• Must use original kit motor.
• Any option part Kyosho or aftermarket can be used.
• Any rubber tire (none silicone based) can be used.
• No Gyro Allowed



GT Mod
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, & MR-03 Mini-Z Chassis. Chassis can be any configuration including LM.

• Any option part Kyosho or aftermarket can be used.
• Any rubber tire Kyosho or aftermarket (none silicone based) can be used.
• Any motor Kyosho or aftermarket can be used.

as far as box stock and gtstock goes.... u have 2 almost identical classes
i would eliminate these item from the approved in BOX STOCK LIST!
• Ball Bearings (No.MZW1)34.00
• Ball Diff (No.MZW1)44.00
• Rear damper (No.MZW207)15.00
and i do agree on the gt stock spec motor...it will need to have mounting holes....
and the 2 gt classes please allow the ma010 awd chassis to compete as well

trl
2011.06.29, 11:50 PM
as far as box stock and gtstock goes.... u have 2 almost identical classes
i would eliminate these item from the approved in BOX STOCK LIST!
• Ball Bearings (No.MZW1)34.00
• Ball Diff (No.MZW1)44.00
• Rear damper (No.MZW207)15.00
and i do agree on the gt stock spec motor...it will need to have mounting holes....
and the 2 gt classes please allow the ma010 awd chassis to compete as well

Overall I like the Summer Shootout rules.

I agree elimimating those Box Stock mods will definitely separate the classes = good idea... but not good for Kyosho business :D

GT stock motors is a tough call. If I'm not mistaken, Kyosho stock (kit motor) and aftermarket stock (2 hole motor) are different spec. However this being a Kyosho event on Kyosho turf, I would have to side with the Kyosho (kit motor) rule for now.

greenepa76
2011.06.30, 10:16 AM
I don't know how important this is, but maybe there should also be a minimum height requirement for the classes mentioned. The front end configuration and front tire thickness on some modded cars results in Kyosho IC tags dragging on the track surface, resulting in poor front handling unless Kyosho comes up with a ultra thin solution for the mounts.

Just some thoughts....

Maybe clarify on just being able to use readyset kits?
I agree with yasuji on elimination of said upgrade parts for box stock since the 2 available cup cars are very close to those limits by just removing the friction damper plate and swapping front springs/ alum shims.
Box stock should be " completely box stock " so newbies and pros are limited by the same handicaps.

mugler
2011.06.30, 10:59 AM
Good initial set of rules. 3 suggestions jump out for me:

- Allow AWD in ALL classes
- Box stock - eliminate all after-market parts with the exception of any brand bearings. (otherwise it's not box stock:))
- GT Stock needs a motor with mounting holes. What's the slowest motor with holes that K offers?...or maybe just go with PN70 which almost all have:confused:

bermbuster
2011.06.30, 06:02 PM
looks like im gonna buy a new "box stock" mr-03 for this event....:cool:
I was thinking that red Tiki tiki....but it is more box "hopped up"...
I really like the idea of the z being "box stock" Literally out of the box....just new kyosho tires....and changing to a larger pinion (from the box) can you say gear diff....and plastic t plate...No bearings, no springs, just simple fun......:D

mugler
2011.06.30, 06:56 PM
For box stock I would run it with bushings no problem if that's whats decided and enjoy every lap:D however I will mention bushing cons:
- other scale racers (potential pool of mini-Z prospects) looking from outside in if they see the word "bushing" it re-enforces their false perception that mini-Z s are more toy than sries racing machines which they are (this alone is reason enough not to go with bushings IMHO)
- bushings bind, causing bad handling behavior that if so will be hard to solve in anyway so now you're stuck with that.
- if you ream (or similar procedure) to solve binding you run the risk of wobbling which is just as bad.
- they'll wear out relatively quickly & are they even sold as a separate part?
- I'm sure with AWD bushings are pretty much like having drag brakes on, even when on throttle compared to one equipped with bearings.
- stock K motor with it's modest power band can really benefit with bearings on the car.

most bearing sets are a mere 10 bucks, well within the spirits of box stock cost control.

yasuji
2011.06.30, 08:41 PM
For box stock I would run it with bushings no problem if that's whats decided and enjoy every lap:D however I will mention bushing cons:
- other scale racers (potential pool of mini-Z prospects) looking from outside in if they see the word "bushing" it re-enforces their false perception that mini-Z s are more toy than sries racing machines which they are (this alone is reason enough not to go with bushings IMHO)
- bushings bind, causing bad handling behavior that if so will be hard to solve in anyway so now you're stuck with that.
- if you ream (or similar procedure) to solve binding you run the risk of wobbling which is just as bad.
- they'll wear out relatively quickly & are they even sold as a separate part?
- I'm sure with AWD bushings are pretty much like having drag brakes on, even when on throttle compared to one equipped with bearings.
- stock K motor with it's modest power band can really benefit with bearings on the car.

most bearing sets are a mere 10 bucks, well within the spirits of box stock cost control.

better do the research and check the price on the kyosho miniz bearing kit....

yasuji
2011.06.30, 08:43 PM
looks like im gonna buy a new "box stock" mr-03 for this event....:cool:
I was thinking that red Tiki tiki....but it is more box "hopped up"...
I really like the idea of the z being "box stock" Literally out of the box....just new kyosho tires....and changing to a larger pinion (from the box) can you say gear diff....and plastic t plate...No bearings, no springs, just simple fun......:D

that was/is the idea behind this class!..:rolleyes:

color01
2011.06.30, 08:48 PM
- other scale racers (potential pool of mini-Z prospects) looking from outside in if they see the word "bushing" it re-enforces their false perception that mini-Z s are more toy than sries racing machines which they are (this alone is reason enough not to go with bushings IMHO)
- bushings bind, causing bad handling behavior that if so will be hard to solve in anyway so now you're stuck with that.
- if you ream (or similar procedure) to solve binding you run the risk of wobbling which is just as bad.
- they'll wear out relatively quickly & are they even sold as a separate part?
- I'm sure with AWD bushings are pretty much like having drag brakes on, even when on throttle compared to one equipped with bearings.
- stock K motor with it's modest power band can really benefit with bearings on the car.

most bearing sets are a mere 10 bucks, well within the spirits of box stock cost control.
All good points. Additionally, the variation in rolling resistance between batches of bearings is much lower than between batches of bushings, making the racers more evenly matched. I think that's pretty important given that everything else is being left Box Stock, for equality.

That said, I'm not so sure about convincing newcomers to buy at $30 set of non-ceramic bearings. Can we really not open this up to "any ball bearings allowed"?

bermbuster
2011.06.30, 08:57 PM
All good points. Additionally, the variation in rolling resistance between batches of bearings is much lower than between batches of bushings, making the racers more evenly matched. I think that's pretty important given that everything else is being left Box Stock, for equality.

That said, I'm not so sure about convincing newcomers to buy at $30 set of non-ceramic bearings. Can we really not open this up to "any ball bearings allowed"?
In the spirit of simplicity run with bushings. What is funny I dont think I even have a set of bushings for a mini z....:rolleyes: This way it puts no monetary pressure on beginner racers......Then after the race bearing up....:cool:
Imagine a new racer beating a seasoned pro in the stock class....:D
This class will hopefully take out the $$$ and tune factor so we will see who has natural talent at the wheel.....
I cant wait......:cool:

bermbuster
2011.06.30, 09:07 PM
that was/is the idea behind this class!..:rolleyes:
Thats why Im liking it.....I have been racing mini zs for almost 7 years and the only place that had a truly box stock class was Bill Crottys place....
but they allowed one hop up....dental rubber bands on the plastic motor pod...kept motors from flying out of the rear mount pods....:cool:

herman
2011.07.01, 05:51 AM
love to see how things go in the box stock class...
been wanting to see this happen for the longest time for all the points discussed in the earlier posts...

given an equal cars... it's really the skill of the driver that will tell you who the better driver is... :D

good luck to all racers... oh and pls do post some vids of that box stock race...

trl
2011.07.01, 09:57 AM
For the benefit of non R241 regulars, tires of choice for their carpet are Radials and slicks, K30f and K20r. The track was freshly vaccumed last Sunday so very loose in the beginning, I think everyone was on Radials. Once more rubber is put down, slicks should work.

To keep Kyosho IC tags from dragging on the track, front tires need sidewalls (no worn down fronts)

90-94mm wheelbase is probably most ideal because there's no long straight. Not sure if the layout will change for SS, YMMV.

greenepa76
2011.07.01, 10:24 AM
TRL, in addition to the K20 radials, I started grooving tires a couple months ago when the K20 radials wore out on that track. It worked so well with my LM rear tires, I decided to find a way to extend the life of the K20's on the 03 chassis and they worked flawlessly with tons more lateral grip. I'm wondering if these will be allowed in the non box stock classes. I actually prefer to groove new slick tires over the worn radials. These actually seem a little more gummy than the radial counterparts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9grABpUlWXQ

Here's a sample clip of slick K20's and K30's on my NASCAR MR03 chasing down an MR02 with K20 and K30 radials with PN a-arm front end. K20 slicks hookup surprisingly well once the rubber has been worn into the track surface for a while. The NASCAR is loose, but very manageable.

mugler
2011.07.01, 09:02 PM
on the bearing cost issue I had chosen my words carefully- post 144: "any brand bearings" & post 146: "most bearing sets" meaning non-K bearings on both occasions, since unfortunately at $30~$35 price range the big K bearing price themselves out of the box stock cost control equation so my point allow bearings but "any brand" which most are priced around $10.:cool:

If it's too much of a headache then no sweat, let's just run with bushings for the first race and then take it form there.:)


greenpa, there's no rules against grooving in GT stock/mod, good point though since not mentioned yet but I'm sure all are in agreement no grooving in box-stock class.

bermbuster
2011.07.01, 09:46 PM
on the bearing cost issue I had chosen my words carefully- post 144: "any brand bearings" & post 146: "most bearing sets" meaning non-K bearings on both occasions, since unfortunately at $30~$35 price range the big K bearing price themselves out of the box stock cost control equation so my point allow bearings but "any brand" which most are priced around $10.:cool:

If it's too much of a headache then no sweat, let's just run with bushings for the first race and then take it form there.:)


greenpa, there's no rules against grooving in GT stock/mod, good point though since not mentioned yet but I'm sure all are in agreement no grooving in box-stock class.

No grooving in box stock......
just to let all the racers know...i will be at the race and I have a Hudy truer/pn groover for GT stock/mod just hit me up and Ill set you up....:D

bermbuster
2011.07.04, 05:39 PM
Here is the first draft of the rules some slight changes may happen between now and the event. If anything changes it will be sooner then later and posted here and on the Kyosho America website.

Kyosho Summer Shoot Out Rules. (Preliminary Ver. 1.0)

BOX STOCK (Featured Class)
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, & MR-03 Mini-Z Chassis with original kit motor. Chassis can be any configuration including LM. Body and wheels must match those that came on original kit. (i.e. no mix and match wheels and offsets.)

• No chassis, ESC or body modification allowed (exception hole may be drilled in rear deck lid of Ferrari F355 to allow for damper)

The only Kyosho option parts allowed are the following:
• Any Kyosho Brand Rubber tire (No silicone based tires allowed)
• Ball Bearings (No.MZW1)
• Ball Diff (No.MZW1)
• Carbon T-bar (No.MZW403, No.MZW404)
• Rear damper (No.MZW207)
• No Gyro Allowed


GT Stock
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, & MR-03 Mini-Z Chassis. Chassis can be any configuration including LM.

• Must use original kit motor.
• Any option part Kyosho or aftermarket can be used.
• Any rubber tire (none silicone based) can be used.
• No Gyro Allowed



GT Mod
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, & MR-03 Mini-Z Chassis. Chassis can be any configuration including LM.

• Any option part Kyosho or aftermarket can be used.
• Any rubber tire Kyosho or aftermarket (none silicone based) can be used.
• Any motor Kyosho or aftermarket can be used.

waiting paitiently for the rules.....:D

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.05, 01:10 PM
Hello All,

We have updated the rules and will update them as well on the website.

Box Stock we felt misrepresented the class so going forward it will be called KYOSHO Stock and it will be the featured class I.E. the only one to award prize packages (of which they will be really nice.) The other classes will award only trophies.

GT Stock we will most likely keep the Kyosho Motor rule as is. We wish to have a class for those wanting to run hopped up cars while still keeping cost to some sort of control. Also there is quite a lot of debate on what after market motors are truly equal to the Kyosho Stock/Kit motor unless our staff feels we can establish a readily available motor that we feel is truly fair then this rule will stand as is. This will allow any potential racers to be able to plan to use a Kyosho Motor and rest with confidence knowing the day of the race they will have a competitive motor. We have also received several requests to our staff personally from racers asking to keep GT Stock Kyosho motor only.

The Mod Class is available with very little if any restrictions and we feel this provides a class for those that have unique wants and needs and or unlimited budgets.

In regards to the IC. tags standard ride height works fine and the tags do not rub. Even lowering the car slightly is still ok, those that dump their cars further may experience some issue with the chassis bottoming out in the turns this is a simple adjustment that those running in the Mod or GT Stock class I am sure can cope and tune for. We will announce shortly a special program we will offer with the Kyosho IC tags making them VERY affordable for those with paid entries.

So far we have received a lot of great feedback and it seems like this event will be a fun one for all levels and we look forward to spending time with all you guys and watching some great racing. Thank you all again for all the great feedback. If the attendance is at a level that it seems it will be then we will try and have a race of this level at least once a quarter with possible club (i.e. no prizes,trophies or entry fees) races in between each event.

-KVP

bermbuster
2011.07.05, 02:59 PM
GT Stock we will most likely keep the Kyosho Motor rule as is. We wish to have a class for those wanting to run hopped up cars while still keeping cost to some sort of control. Also there is quite a lot of debate on what after market motors are truly equal to the Kyosho Stock/Kit motor unless our staff feels we can establish a readily available motor that we feel is truly fair then this rule will stand as is. This will allow any potential racers to be able to plan to use a Kyosho Motor and rest with confidence knowing the day of the race they will have a competitive motor. We have also received several requests to our staff personally from racers asking to keep GT Stock Kyosho motor only.

-KVP

I understand about the motor and I like Kyosho motors but they have no holes.....will Kyosho offer pre drilled cans for this class? Otherwise
its going to be a pain to either drill one myself or I will have to buy a plastic motor pod which may or may not work with my damper

color01
2011.07.05, 04:24 PM
Box Stock we felt misrepresented the class so going forward it will be called KYOSHO Stock and it will be the featured class I.E. the only one to award prize packages (of which they will be really nice.) The other classes will award only trophies.
This is unfortunate. I understand that having a Kyosho Cup-type class of racing would be important at a Kyosho track and HQ, but the absence of true Box Stock racing is kind of a letdown to those who wanted almost 100% no-advantage, inexpensive racing.

For GT Stock, I think it'd be nice to have a couple pre-drilled stock motors on hand at the track -- as Berm said, drilling these yourself without the right tools is a huge pain, and it would be unfair to force the GT racers to have switch motor mounts just to run the no-hole Kyosho stock motor.

Does anybody have a picture of the side of the Kyosho IC tag (showing its thickness)? If it's not too thick, then there can be other ways of mounting the tag without having to compromise front suspension geometry. I hope that the Kyosho IC tag mounting brackets are not the only ones allowed in the racing classes.

bermbuster
2011.07.05, 05:32 PM
I found these at Kyosho,s website

Kyosho Summer Shoot Out Rules.
(Ver. 1.1) Updated on July5th
Kyosho Summer Shoot Out 2011 Saturday July 30th
Doors open 9am. Registration / Checkin begins at 9am Racing starts 11am


KYOSHO STOCK (Featured Class)
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, & MR-03 Mini-Z Chassis with original kit motor. Chassis can be any configuration including LM. Body and wheels must match those that came on original kit. (i.e. no mix and match wheels and offsets.)
• No chassis, ESC or body modification allowed (exception hole may be drilled in rear deck lid of Ferrari F355 to allow for damper)
The only Kyosho option parts allowed are the following:
• Any Kyosho Brand Rubber tire (No grooving, cutting or silicone based tires allowed)
• Ball Bearings (any none ceramic)
• Rear damper (No.MZW207)
• No Gyro Allowed


GT Stock
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, MR-03 & MA-010 Mini-Z Chassis. Chassis can be any configuration including LM.
• Must use original kit motor. (possible expansion of this to come soon)
• Any option part Kyosho or aftermarket can be used.
• Any rubber tire (none silicone based) can be used.
• No Gyro Allowed


GT Mod
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, MR-03 & MA-010 Mini-Z Chassis. Chassis can be any configuration including LM.
• Any option part Kyosho or aftermarket can be used.
• Any rubber tire Kyosho or aftermarket (none silicone based) can be used.
• Any motor Kyosho or aftermarket can be used.

mugler
2011.07.05, 05:46 PM
This is unfortunate. I understand that having a Kyosho Cup-type class of racing would be important at a Kyosho track and HQ, but the absence of true Box Stock racing is kind of a letdown to those who wanted almost 100% no-advantage, inexpensive racing.

Agree 100%...all the excitement is around "BOX STOCK" & that's why voluntarily I'll be running my car as bone stock, not even bearings and hope everyone will do same per gentlemen's agreement. as indicated by others in the know this type of class can really be a gateway class for new blood entering mini-Z arena in short/medium & long run. :)

For GT Stock, I think it'd be nice to have a couple pre-drilled stock motors on hand at the track -- as Berm said, drilling these yourself without the right tools is a huge pain, and it would be unfair to force the GT racers to have switch motor mounts just to run the no-hole Kyosho stock motor.

Having pre-drilled K motors for race day will surely go a long way...withouth those not sure I can run so may have to seat that one out...I'll see what happens

Does anybody have a picture of the side of the Kyosho IC tag (showing its thickness)? If it's not too thick, then there can be other ways of mounting the tag without having to compromise front suspension geometry. I hope that the Kyosho IC tag mounting brackets are not the only ones allowed in the racing classes.

Actullay we've been trimming off all mounting holes and ending up with a pretty flat tag that can be double taped with relative ease, so we did not have much of an issue at all last time. I'm assuming box stock ride height with full sized tires f/r will also provide adequate clearance.

bermbuster
2011.07.06, 08:33 AM
I thought I would show what we need for a motor to work with our aftermarket (legal) motor pods for the GT stock class.....

Here is a picture of 2 motors...
the one on the left has holes for mounting.
the one on the right is a stock kyosho motor.

Im sure Kyosho can "get r done".....:cool:

I bet the reason not many racers use the kyosho stock or x speed motors is for this very reason. One of the first hop ups racers get are motor pods.....:cool:

arch2b
2011.07.06, 12:01 PM
I agree 100%. Had the stock motor included a drilled motor can, i think you would see these used a lot. HFAY started off with the stock motor and moved to other brands for this very reason.

apologies for the diversion, just wanted to share that story.

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.06, 03:47 PM
The I.C. tag itself is roughly 2mm thick and when mounted using the holes sits fairly flush. We recommend mounting using the provided holes if you wish to double stick tape them that is fine but this makes it difficult to transfer it when you wish to switch it to a new chassis.

Note* removing the tag from the mount will damage the tag and it will no longer read.

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.06, 04:00 PM
We have gotten a lot of feedback and more then likely do to what we are hearing we will stay with the Kyosho Motor for Stock Class only. If we switch to optional motors then GT Stock basically becomes GT Mod Light which we feel does not benefit the class.

The majority of the feedback we are receiving (and we agree) is that exotic rear pods and after market motor usually suit drivers who's budgets and skill level is ideal for Mod Class.

bermbuster
2011.07.06, 04:09 PM
We have gotten a lot of feedback and more then likely do to what we are hearing we will stay with the Kyosho Motor for Stock Class only. If we switch to optional motors then GT Stock basically becomes GT Mod Light which we feel does not benefit the class.

The majority of the feedback we are receiving (and we agree) is that exotic rear pods and after market motor usually suit drivers who's budgets and skill level is ideal for Mod Class.

then you should make after market motor pods illegal for the class. Otherwise you will have a select few who can drill a stock can running the stock motor in an exotic pod.

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.06, 04:12 PM
I understand the appeal to plastic bushings as some consider brand new bushing faster then bearings. Using Bushings also gives some an advantage when they are able to "massage" these bushings and have the budget to replace often. This is also why we are going with ball bearings as the variance in performance is much less and the maintenance and cost over time is also much less.

We are trying to keep this from becoming a "have to buy a new car per race to win" class that often occurs when the rules state "true" box stock.

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.06, 04:14 PM
then you should make after market motor pods illegal for the class. Otherwise you will have a select few who can drill a stock can running the stock motor in an exotic pod.

That is a good point. I will update the rules to state no drilled motors.

color01
2011.07.06, 05:49 PM
The majority of the feedback we are receiving (and we agree) is that exotic rear pods and after market motor usually suit drivers who's budgets and skill level is ideal for Mod Class.
There are plenty of exotic rear pods out there that can actually handle a non-drilled can motor. A ball diff, another expensive item, would also be one of those things that you'll see in GT Stock -- I don't know who exactly this feedback is coming from but they should probably race Kyosho stock rather than GT Stock if budget is the issue. I can appreciate that people want both a very-tightly-controlled class and a slightly more open one where more hop-ups can be used, but a GT Stock racer with the stock Kyosho pod and a ball diff is going to be very disgruntled when someone shells out $110 for a double A-arm front suspension that wipes the floor with the stock front end. Nevermind that the same someone could have purchased a $50 126p ceramic diff/gear set and a $35 Atomic hole-less motor pod to adjust the gear mesh with, that makes the stock Kyosho motor feel almost like a PN 70t speed-wise. All of these things would be legal in GT Stock under the current rules, but the guys who you're getting feedback from are NOT going to like this particular guy when it comes down to the A Main race. He shelled out for legal, good parts, and the resulting car is (assuming equal setup and driving skills) going to blow the cheaper ones out of the water. I'm sorry but this budget and motor drilling argument is not going to work in GT Stock, someone is going to have the brains and the cash to work around the current regulations and everyone else is not going to be happy.

Kyosho Stock (all regulated) and GT Mod (not regulated) don't have this problem, the former is going to be half luck (got a good motor?) and half skill, and the latter is going to be more setup and driving skill than budget (EMU almost beat me the other week with a nearly-stock MR02). If you create a condition in the GT Stock class where shelling out a ridiculous amount of money puts you at an insurmountable advantage, then you might as well axe the class to shift its racers towards one of the other two.

bermbuster
2011.07.06, 06:03 PM
There are plenty of exotic rear pods out there that can actually handle a non-drilled can motor. A ball diff, another expensive item, would also be one of those things that you'll see in GT Stock -- I don't know who exactly this feedback is coming from but they should probably race Kyosho stock rather than GT Stock if budget is the issue. I can appreciate that people want both a very-tightly-controlled class and a slightly more open one where more hop-ups can be used, but a GT Stock racer with the stock Kyosho pod and a ball diff is going to be very disgruntled when someone shells out $110 for a double A-arm front suspension that wipes the floor with the stock front end. Nevermind that the same someone could have purchased a $50 126p ceramic diff/gear set and a $35 Atomic hole-less motor pod to adjust the gear mesh with, that makes the stock Kyosho motor feel almost like a PN 70t speed-wise. All of these things would be legal in GT Stock under the current rules, but the guys who you're getting feedback from are NOT going to like this particular guy when it comes down to the A Main race. He shelled out for legal, good parts, and the resulting car is (assuming equal setup and driving skills) going to blow the cheaper ones out of the water. I'm sorry but this budget and motor drilling argument is not going to work in GT Stock, someone is going to have the brains and the cash to work around the current regulations and everyone else is not going to be happy.

Kyosho Stock (all regulated) and GT Mod (not regulated) don't have this problem, the former is going to be half luck (got a good motor?) and half skill, and the latter is going to be more setup and driving skill than budget (EMU almost beat me the other week with a nearly-stock MR02). If you create a condition in the GT Stock class where shelling out a ridiculous amount of money puts you at an insurmountable advantage, then you might as well axe the class to shift its racers towards one of the other two.

What is funny I never thought about the legal front ends available for GT stock. I was focuced on the motor..... Brian your exactly right about this. I think the powers to be at Kyosho are looking for a class where there cup car chassis can compete.
The reality is in mini z stock racing the only thing stock is the motor.....
Now where can I get an atomic pod.....:cool:

trl
2011.07.06, 07:03 PM
At this point, all the (informative and well written) suggestions are reaching overkill for a first ever US Kyosho Mini-Z event. Let's go and have fun and put the first event in the books before rewriting the rules.

The 'game changer' on July 30 will be time gap between Kyosho Stock and GT Stock. How many seconds will DWS, exotic rear ends, ceramics buy you? :eek:

trl
2011.07.06, 08:10 PM
but a GT Stock racer with the stock Kyosho pod and a ball diff is going to be very disgruntled when someone shells out $110 for a double A-arm front suspension that wipes the floor with the stock front end.

I'm ok getting beat by $500 car while i spend $150 on mine :), he/she deserves to beat me :D:D they can have that $10 plastic trophy

If you create a condition in the GT Stock class where shelling out a ridiculous amount of money puts you at an insurmountable advantage, then you might as well axe the class to shift its racers towards one of the other two.

I don't think Kyosho is 'creating' any condition... 'GT Stock' is prevalant in every scale, open hop ups = thunderdome, aka GT Stock is not fair by design, the person who spends the most wins the most. Atomic, PN and Kyosho sales department aren't complaining :D

bermbuster
2011.07.06, 08:35 PM
I'm ok getting beat by $500 car while i spend $150 on mine :), he/she deserves to beat me :D:D they can have that $10 plastic trophy

You have a great attitude.....:cool:
Some racers when they get beat swear the opposition was cheating and this turns them off to racing.....
I like to see a level playing field where everybody understands the rules and has fun. The reality is if you dont have fun you dont come back.....:D

color01
2011.07.06, 08:53 PM
I'm ok getting beat by $500 car while i spend $150 on mine :), he/she deserves to beat me :D:D they can have that $10 plastic trophy

I don't think Kyosho is 'creating' any condition... 'GT Stock' is prevalant in every scale, open hop ups = thunderdome, aka GT Stock is not fair by design, the person who spends the most wins the most. Atomic, PN and Kyosho sales department aren't complaining :D
You have a good, but rare, outlook on the situation I'm afraid. The "spend to win" that that 1/10 and 1/12 Stock racing created (yes, between the rules and the drivers, it's "created") caused the classes to grenade just a few years back because people just weren't having fun. I would not like to see that happen to Mini-Z, hence every race organizer should be trying to catch the possibilities early.

yasuji
2011.07.06, 09:44 PM
We have gotten a lot of feedback and more then likely do to what we are hearing we will stay with the Kyosho Motor for Stock Class only. If we switch to optional motors then GT Stock basically becomes GT Mod Light which we feel does not benefit the class.

The majority of the feedback we are receiving (and we agree) is that exotic rear pods and after market motor usually suit drivers who's budgets and skill level is ideal for Mod Class.

i do not understand this:confused:
to run a stock class/spec/slow motorwith exotic rear pods suit drivers who's budgets and skill level is ideal for Mod Class:confused:

the original concept was to be this!
KYOSHO BOX STOCK CLASS: NO MODS NO BIG $$
most of us @ so-cal mini-z were gonna buy brand new cars to run this class
the idea was also to attract new/current/possible drivers to buy and come in and race on a level playing field!

OPEN GT STOCK: OPEN TO ANY AND ALL MINI-Z PARTS AND ACC. SPEC /HANDOUT MOTOR
75% of the drivers that have been to route 241 have this spec whether it be kyosho pn atomic 3 racing r246 ect.and we use this spec all over the world and it works... it is one of the hottest contested classes in every mini-z event i have been too

OPEN GT MOD:OPEN TO ANY AND ALL MINI-Z PARTS AND ACC. OPEN MOTOR
by far the hardest class to drive IN THIS EVENT!...run what u brung wfo :D

yasuji
2011.07.06, 10:10 PM
There are plenty of exotic rear pods out there that can actually handle a non-drilled can motor. A ball diff, another expensive item, would also be one of those things that you'll see in GT Stock -- I don't know who exactly this feedback is coming from but they should probably race Kyosho stock rather than GT Stock if budget is the issue. I can appreciate that people want both a very-tightly-controlled class and a slightly more open one where more hop-ups can be used, but a GT Stock racer with the stock Kyosho pod and a ball diff is going to be very disgruntled when someone shells out $110 for a double A-arm front suspension that wipes the floor with the stock front end. Nevermind that the same someone could have purchased a $50 126p ceramic diff/gear set and a $35 Atomic hole-less motor pod to adjust the gear mesh with, that makes the stock Kyosho motor feel almost like a PN 70t speed-wise. All of these things would be legal in GT Stock under the current rules, but the guys who you're getting feedback from are NOT going to like this particular guy when it comes down to the A Main race. He shelled out for legal, good parts, and the resulting car is (assuming equal setup and driving skills) going to blow the cheaper ones out of the water. I'm sorry but this budget and motor drilling argument is not going to work in GT Stock, someone is going to have the brains and the cash to work around the current regulations and everyone else is not going to be happy.

Kyosho Stock (all regulated) and GT Mod (not regulated) don't have this problem, the former is going to be half luck (got a good motor?) and half skill, and the latter is going to be more setup and driving skill than budget (EMU almost beat me the other week with a nearly-stock MR02). If you create a condition in the GT Stock class where shelling out a ridiculous amount of money puts you at an insurmountable advantage, then you might as well axe the class to shift its racers towards one of the other two.

THE POINT OF THE GT STOCK CLASS IS BEING MISSED!!!!!
some have only one car and and spent good $$ getting it set up with good parts and may not be willing or able to back date the chassis for various reasons and they dont understand why they will need to buy another 40.00 motor pod or run a plastic motor pod to race this event....
or the other option is to run against full mod cars????
understand brian....this class is/was designed to see all manufacturers compete amongst each other running the same motors....

greenepa76
2011.07.06, 10:38 PM
Watch out for an AWD LM car in open mod class :D

blt456
2011.07.07, 12:58 AM
Why not do...
1. Kyosho stock: only upgrade is tires
2. GT stock: Handout motor and open parts
3. GT mod: anything

yasuji
2011.07.07, 01:13 AM
Why not do...
1. Kyosho stock: only upgrade is tires
2. GT stock: Handout motor and open parts
3. GT mod: anything

this is the original concept that i proposed to kyosho!:rolleyes:
rt now the biggest problem is the kyosho stk motor not having holes in it!
by not allowing holes to be drilled it will require most drivers to change motor mounts

blt456
2011.07.07, 02:17 AM
The majority of the feedback we are receiving (and we agree) is that exotic rear pods and after market motor usually suit drivers who's budgets and skill level is ideal for Mod Class.

I don't know who is giving you feedback, but that doesn't even make any logical sense. Just because one has the money to buy an upgraded motor pod doesn't mean their budget or skill is up to par for the modified class. New comers may not want to run box stock, meaning their options open up for parts.

Why doesn't the store choose a certain motor for the gt stock class? My vote would be for the PN Racing 80 turn because it is slow enough for new comers to control and racing is very close! :)

greenepa76
2011.07.07, 12:10 PM
Most of the So Cal Mini Z crowd have the upgraded motor mounts to run stock class. Even with the 80T motors! Its not even about money or budget as this is motor mount configuration is the choice for guys to run stock or mod at the club races, which are held weekly campared to Kyosho run events.

I hope I don't offend anyone by saying this, but can we really expect the guys who race on a weekly basis to go out and purchase an R246 motor mount or swap back the old plastic mount (some z owners may not be able to do this anymore), just to run a once a year event for a Kyosho class that doesn't make sense for them to run in. Many of these racers already have these tuning options available in their arsenal of upgrades and parts.

The current rules for GT stock class, which very likely would have been the most popular class for many local/ national mini-z regulars, just got singled out because all these folks who race mini-z's regularly at weekly club races have to reconfigure proven cars and likely factor in a new motor mount into their budget to run a one time and rare Kyosho held Mini-z event. It really doesn't cater and show appreciation to the larger group of mini-z owners.

If Kyosho held or sponsored more local mini-z events that required a Kyosho only tuned stock class, there may not be as much of this banter back and forth about the rules since many might be runing these items which may also help with Kyosho's aftermarket parts sales instead of turning to thier leading competitors for upgraded parts support. I've run Kyosho and R246 upgrade parts myself on many occasions and I am just as competitive as the others running other manufacturers upgrade parts. So from personal opinion, Kyosho doesn't make an inferior product by any means and I know that in Japan, these are the tuning parts of choice of many mini-z car owners.

Turn out could be much less if these guys are singled out for that class and would make the racing much less interesting as these guys are usually the faster crowd and the most popular class stateside.

Now back to the title of my post.....
I would like to suggest an idea for this class and do not mean any disrespect or disregard for Kyosho's or KyoshoVP's currently outlined rules for GT stock by mentioning this, but my suggestion is to allow for the Mini-z BBt R246-1822 high torque motor (since it has the mounting holes and I know it is a much more powerful motor, but R241 is large enough and I've tried this motor on there) as the official hand out motor and limit the use to using Kyosho 0.5 pitch 6 tooth pinion along with a spec'd 44Teeth 0.5 mod spur gear of choice as a compromise since it is still a Kyosho product and not a competitor's. With this motor configuration and pinion/spur setup, the speeds will be limited, as a "stock" class should and still fall within other acceptable tuning options for GT stock allowing use for many of the Mini-Z's out in the current local racing scene. I am sure many will have a ball diff ready as part of their standard upgrades and the stock Kyosho 44T ball diff gear works on other diff shafts, though it maybe a slightly tighter fit (ream it out). For those that don't have ball diffs, the stock 44 teeth gear diff will work without problems should the box stock guys want to run this class also in the plastic motor mounts.

s4kebomb
2011.07.07, 01:13 PM
A true box stock for KYOSHO STOCK class is preferred because this will make everyone on a same level. The only difference will be the skill of the driver.
From cost perspective, this will be zero investment on the car other than tires.

GT STOCK: We need to have motors that have mounting holes. As being said by greenepa, it is hard to justify buying parts that will only be used once a year to cater stock kyosho motor.

unwritten
2011.07.07, 01:42 PM
it is hard to justify buying parts that will only be used once a year to cater stock kyosho motor.

I'm sure that people wouldn't mind buying more Kyosho parts to cater for Kyosho Mini-z Cup Rules as long as Kyosho shows more commitment in having more than one event per year.

greenepa76
2011.07.07, 02:43 PM
I'm sure that people wouldn't mind buying more Kyosho parts to cater for Kyosho Mini-z Cup Rules as long as Kyosho shows more commitment in having more than one event per year.

Well, their track hasn't been open too long and they do have a very nice facility and free track use. We can't forget that they did do this in apreciation for Mini-z owners. I would just like to see more events held there for mini-z to promote the Mini-z scene instead of just providing us a track to use. I'm sure the bi-weekly turnouts would be much greater if they had the track setup with more events so people would more likely show up on a weekly basis for test and tune sessions in preparation for a Kyosho cup race. Then the long drive out there for many wouldn't just be for a "fun run" for those who don't have access to a nice carpet track dedicated for Mini-z's.

Let's not forget that the Kyosho guys volunteer their time on weekends to allow us to run there for those of us that do show up on occasion.

Unwritten, in Kyosho's defense and I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I think we have to make it worthwhile for them to want to work those weekends also. They're a really good bunch of guys with the best intentions and I hope the latter part of this thread doesn't turn into a "I'm frustrated with Kyosho" discussion because they may not have the means currently to host as many events as we'd like to see and focus on the current discussion and what we can suggest for Kyosho to reconsider their rules to promote Mini-z so many of us can participate at their events. Who knows, this might be the start of a good thing for them and us if the turnout is favorable.:)

Kyosho, you guys should do a dnano event also! The dnano's are just as much fun and the layout you guys have can make for a huge LeMans endurance setup!

bermbuster
2011.07.07, 03:02 PM
Im a mini z maniac and have been for a long time. I dont know how I lucked out but I just moved to Southern California and Im going to be able to race at Rt 241 on a regular basis...:D
I believe what we all need to do is to have fun and not try to re-invent the wheel. My good friend Grant has been promoting and running events for a few years and he knows what it takes for an event to be successful especially in SoCal. The easiest fix is pick a hand-out motor. If cost is an issue GF Racing will help with the cost......I want this event to be the race to remember....:D

color01
2011.07.07, 07:00 PM
Well, their track hasn't been open too long and they do have a very nice facility and free track use. We can't forget that they did do this in apreciation for Mini-z owners. I would just like to see more events held there for mini-z to promote the Mini-z scene instead of just providing us a track to use. I'm sure the bi-weekly turnouts would be much greater if they had the track setup with more events so people would more likely show up on a weekly basis for test and tune sessions in preparation for a Kyosho cup race. Then the long drive out there for many wouldn't just be for a "fun run" for those who don't have access to a nice carpet track dedicated for Mini-z's.

Let's not forget that the Kyosho guys volunteer their time on weekends to allow us to run there for those of us that do show up on occasion.

Unwritten, in Kyosho's defense and I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I think we have to make it worthwhile for them to want to work those weekends also. They're a really good bunch of guys with the best intentions and I hope the latter part of this thread doesn't turn into a "I'm frustrated with Kyosho" discussion because they may not have the means currently to host as many events as we'd like to see and focus on the current discussion and what we can suggest for Kyosho to reconsider their rules to promote Mini-z so many of us can participate at their events. Who knows, this might be the start of a good thing for them and us if the turnout is favorable.:)

Kyosho, you guys should do a dnano event also! The dnano's are just as much fun and the layout you guys have can make for a huge LeMans endurance setup!
Very diplomatic and reasonable words. What I'm most frustrated about with the current ruleset in GT Stock is the lack of mutual understanding about the point of GT Stock. Everywhere else in the country, GT Stock is THE most competitive class, in terms of having different ways to win (money, time and effort, setup skill, driving skill, bending rules, etc.). With the way the proposed rules have been evolving, the GT Stock class here would throw out time and effort and push (to an extent) setup skill and money, if it requires racers to revamp their setups just for this one race. The dynamic of the racing class thus deviates significantly from a formula that we've been steadily working on since a long time ago, and that lack of consideration for our efforts is what irritates a lot of us.

Obviously Kyosho Stock also has its sticking points since originally it was to be Box Stock and no upgrades, but at least following the new rules, the class dynamic is not significantly changed from its original intent (just a little more money involved).

How fast are the High Torque and High Speed motors? R246's website indicates that they are to be used with LiFe, which should mean that they were designed not to overstress the RA-18 or RA-22 electronics even with 6.6V going through them. There should be a limit to how fast they could possibly be with 4AAA. I'm thinking the High Speed motor doesn't have neodymium magnets so it would technically be weaker than the High Torque motor, and need to be geared down naturally. That said, they're not cheap -- that motor itself is already more than a 3racing motor pod that can fit the non-drilled Kyosho stock motor. But it's a simpler route than revamping the chassis setup.

greenepa76
2011.07.08, 01:33 AM
Brian, I was suggesting those to be the handout motors or perhaps at a nice discount for the racers who decide to show up for that class and include the discounted cost in the entry fee. I haven't done any research on the motors, but you maybe right on the mags. I have both and have run the high speed version at a Kenon club race for mod class. It feels like a 43T motor at best and it isn't the fastest, but on tracks the size of Kenon and R246, it should not be an issue of too much speed if used with the stock gearing config as out of the box with 44/6. I can do tests this Sunday at Kyosho if need be since I have both those motors.;)

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.08, 01:24 PM
Hello Everyone,

In short. For this event we will keep the rules as posted (this morning Version 1.3) If say going forward GT Mod has very little interest and GT stock continues to have two apposing views on what motor or level of options to include we may shut down GT Mod and have a more open GT Stock and Kyosho Mod Class going forward.

We spent a great deal of time this morning going over all your comments. We think unfortunately some things are being misunderstood. We do not want to offend and or upset anyone as our goal in absolute earnest to see ALL of you happy and provide a very special and active track with which everyone at every level can come and enjoy and share the love of RC and especially Mini-Z.

So here is the straight dirt so to speak. We feel after many years of research that Mini-Z racing in the U.S. is not ideal. Where we see weekly events with 100+ in attendance in other classes we see monthly and even annual Mini-Z events struggle to achieve a couple of dozen people or less. Our goal is to change this and see Mini-Z get the respect and attention we feel it deserves. I cannot go into specifics but please understand that the amount of Mini-Z's sold with the intent of racing to the amount raced is not as substantial as those in other classes. We are actually in touch with far more Mini-Z owners then people realize, as most actually are not active in forums nor do they attend a second race. We get a LOT of feedback regarding the intimidation our customers feel when they attend their first (and last) race. We get constant feedback that racing is too difficult due to not having the resources to join the "motor/part of the month club" or not wanting to have to change FET's or shop online etc. that many newcomers feel is part of the current Mini-Z racing community. This same factor is what killed off 1:12 scale in the 80's and an even larger class1:10 scale on-road a class that for many years carried the industry and at it's height was the biggest class ever in RC. (200+ entries per multiple monthly regional races worldwide)

When we established the current rules our intention was to provide a class that allowed an easy point of entry and the ability to race with a car that needs very little if any up keep and or adjustment from race to race. Hence the Kyosho Stock class.

We also heard many of our customers have slight mods but have not gone full blown frankencar and would love to race these cars for this we felt the GT Stock would be good.

We do have several locals here in SoCal who have taken things to the next level and for this we felt giving them an open class would suit them with GT Mod.

Concern has been voiced of this only being a once a year race. We can assure you all the immediate goal is actually to have eight possible races per year. Four trophy races and four "FREE for all" none trophy races. We are even considering merging our series with the Kyosho Cup race in Japan and possibly having a National Series were the winner gets sent to Japan to compete in the Japanese Mini-Z Cup (How does that sound?)

We feel with our decades of experience at all levels of RC racing we are hoping to be able to address some of the issues Mini-Z racing has had over recent years and hope in the end it will benefit everyone even though at first it may seem off putting to some. Example, when we first revealed our R241 track would be carpet, many people on this forum were very upset that we did not use RCP. Since then most have come to love the consistent smooth carpet surface we have. Many even have now updated their own tracks to carpet. We have several of our dealers nationwide who have switched to carpet and soon noticed an increase of return racers. Sometime there is a method to our perceived madness.

We hope to see you all at the race this month and I personally will be at R241 this weekend and hope to see many of you practicing for the big event.

Thanks KyoshoVP

arch2b
2011.07.08, 01:47 PM
despite all the debate, i applaud kyosho for pushing the stock class. i'm very excited about the excitement a stock class is generating as i've been discussing this with others locally for some time. i only hope that with its success comes it's proliferation into other established series held by others. :cool:

kudos on the gt stock class as well. you could have easily gone kyosho only parts but are open to all manuf. which is awsome. many of us still remember the GP kyosho cup days :rolleyes:

only wish it were on the east coast:(

mugler
2011.07.08, 02:59 PM
Love the new Kyosho stock class rules (v1.3) - I think everyone will be able to roll with that for sure. ideally i would have eliminated the rear shock too even though i have one already, but hey that is now definitely an inviting "gateway" class that we all think was needed ...good stuff, excited about that one.

Regarding GT stock using K kit motor which has been much discussed...basically it keeps-out anyone with a PN pod which is a big chunk of SoCal mini-Z group including myself:eek:. Since PN is also a sponsor and equally important PN stock motors are a cheap 10 bucks a pop I was hoping that will be the handout motor putting a smile on everyone's faces , however it's all good, I can still do Kyosho stock and GT Mod and was going to be hard to run 3 classes in the same event anyway (@ least for me;))

Very excited to hear about R241 plans to hold 8 races a year including possibility of joining Kyosho cup. This kind of thing has the potential of rejuvenating the mini-Z scene in a series way and hopefully see it grow.

bermbuster
2011.07.08, 03:09 PM
Are the Kyosho Rt 241 pods in stock at Kyosho?
I have had my PN pods so long I didnt realize that the RT241 pods attach to ends of the motor. Ill just pick up a pod and all is good. Now I literally have about 30 stock motors to choose from for this class.:D
Im busy traveling this weekend for work so no practice for me....

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.08, 04:11 PM
kudos on the gt stock class as well. you could have easily gone kyosho only parts but are open to all manuf. which is awsome. many of us still remember the GP kyosho cup days :rolleyes:

only wish it were on the east coast:(

Thank you for recognizing this. Japan was not fully on board with this at first and it took some convincing. Using the Kyosho motor only was a form of compromise. Originally they wanted Official Kyosho World Cup Rules which are Kyosho parts only but we wanted to make it more inviting for more drivers.

mleemor60
2011.07.08, 04:21 PM
Are the Kyosho Rt 241 pods in stock at Kyosho?
I have had my PN pods so long I didnt realize that the RT241 pods attach to ends of the motor. Ill just pick up a pod and all is good. Now I literally have about 30 stock motors to choose from for this class.:D
Im busy traveling this weekend for work so no practice for me....

George. It actually isn't a bad little piece. I have three of them. Once you get them de burred and clearanced(for use with motors other than Kyosho) they are pretty slick and light weight. Same pod as 3racing but better quality control. Excellent hardware. Far better than we are used to. Comes with shims and spacers for the motor as well as bits for stock LM damper plate or the Kyosho CF unit(or aftermarket) Absolutely no concerns with gear mesh. 48 or 64p.

color01
2011.07.08, 05:05 PM
When we established the current rules our intention was to provide a class that allowed an easy point of entry and the ability to race with a car that needs very little if any up keep and or adjustment from race to race. Hence the Kyosho Stock class.

We also heard many of our customers have slight mods but have not gone full blown frankencar and would love to race these cars for this we felt the GT Stock would be good.

We do have several locals here in SoCal who have taken things to the next level and for this we felt giving them an open class would suit them with GT Mod.
As I said, I understood these intentions from the start. The trouble as I see it is that the current GT Stock rules do nothing to provide for the customer base you aim it towards -- if you want to cater to those racers without a frankencar, I would think you have to set some more regulation about what can be modified. Kyosho Stock is now looking very good; with the rear shock adding some damping it'll make everyone's car easier to drive, but tuning is still extremely limited. GT Stock should take a hint from this, if you want to cater to less experienced racers. I'm not opposed to GT Stock looking like Kyosho Cup but with some extra manufacturer allowances. At the very least, it would set very clear expectations for everyone going to the class, which will make it more enjoyable to race even if some would prefer different rules. Just saying "all hop ups" and then "no drilled motors" is sending a bag of mixed messages that is still turning people off.

In fact, I think that we're coincidentally lucky that the "more hardcore" racing group in SoCal has recently begun to embrace Mod racing, because now you actually have a path that you can gently push towards to have us in the Mod class -- we're experienced enough, we'll be a little uncomfortable but not nearly as much as having to replace a rear pod and a tri-shock. More regulation in GT Stock will push most of us right over, and since the group is still intact, the racing will still be as close as it is every week at Kenon.

I have some ideas for possible ways to regulate GT Stock more, let me edit them in later tonight (or a new post if someone else replies first).

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.08, 05:12 PM
I have some ideas for possible ways to regulate GT Stock more, let me edit them in later tonight (or a new post if someone else replies first). We are very interested in hearing this as we may limit or modify this class further going forward but have not quite finalized just how to do it.

EMU
2011.07.08, 05:23 PM
When I look at a rule list, I look for what I can do that is not explicitly stated in the rules. Not saying that I will necessarily do everything that can be done, but I want to know what I can do to increase speed if needed just to the point where the rules will not be broken. Rules are black and white, but there is plenty of grey area where they arent broken, but come close. The more definitive the rules are, the better they will be for the newer entries.

In general, I like to keep things simple, but if other people step into the grey areas, I have to be ready to respond to keep pace if the adjustments made are a clear advantage. A lot of times they arent, but sometimes they are. As a race organizer, you have to be ready for these circumstances, and it is much easier to handle them before it happens in the rule book, than after it happens on the track.

For years a local track (Action RC) ran a narrow body/chassis class with the Kyosho stock motor as the only motor option. This limited motormount choices. I used the ATM vIII 94mm mount which can accommodate both motors with holes or ones without. I dominated that class for quite a while, as there were very few 98mm narrow bodies, and I could run 94mm bodies in the MM position while everyone else was in the RM position. Some racers eventually started drilling their motors out to run 94mm MM with PN ML mounts. Eventually, the motor changed over to the PN 70t, which readily accommodated all mounts, and it allowed more different types of setups than the Kyosho stock motor. Drilling the motor out is not very difficult, but most less experienced racers will not do it since they may be afraid of damaging it. While I am not against the rule book using the Kyosho stock motor, perhaps there can be a run of Kyosho stock motors produced with holes drilled. I know that I would buy a few, and I wont be racing at this race. I have always preferred the feel of the Kyosho motor... This would also be a good option for the X-speed...

Thanks for your time :)

arch2b
2011.07.08, 06:30 PM
Thank you for recognizing this. Japan was not fully on board with this at first and it took some convincing. Using the Kyosho motor only was a form of compromise. Originally they wanted Official Kyosho World Cup Rules which are Kyosho parts only but we wanted to make it more inviting for more drivers.

i certainly appreciate the efforts made to make it manufacturer friendly. you have my sincere thanks :)

on a side note, what would it take to get kyosho to make a drilled motor? maybe bring the x-speed out of retirement with a new can.? just food for though.

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.08, 07:05 PM
i certainly appreciate the efforts made to make it manufacturer friendly. you have my sincere thanks :)

on a side note, what would it take to get kyosho to make a drilled motor? maybe bring the x-speed out of retirement with a new can.? just food for though. This would have to be a decision made by Japan.

bermbuster
2011.07.08, 07:50 PM
You know Im sitting here reading things and it becomes really clear about how complicated and confusing racing can be for a new racer. I applaud Kyosho for trying to simplify it and make racing fun and affordable for all racers.
We have a good solid stock class and the modified is easy too....:cool:
Now the trick is to have a GT stock class that is not intimidating. The reality is right now the only thing that technically has to be stock is the motor.....
The stock motor has no mounting holes so now we need to use motor pods (mounts) that can accomodate this. For me as a seasoned racer who isnt fast I enjoy stock "speeds" of racing. My stock car resembles a mod car with all its hop ups. The fact that Kyosho and other vendors have plastic and aluminum pods that will suit my needs I need to adjust to the needs of the other "newer" racers. If I knew I needed a different type of mount back in the day I would have bought one. I look at the pod as an investment in FUN.....:D

Old Crow
2011.07.08, 07:52 PM
This sounds right to me, and has been what I hoped would have happened early on with Mini-z racing in the USA.

1) Kyosho making a real effort to establish Mini-z's in the USA, and some kind of structure to the racing of them.
2) Box stock class.(and/or very limited mods)
3) Carpet for a racing surface.

I hope for continued growth with Kyosho USA, Mini-z's and these ideas.

color01
2011.07.08, 08:18 PM
We are very interested in hearing this as we may limit or modify this class further going forward but have not quite finalized just how to do it.
Following EMU's lead, the first thing to rule out is ESC upgrades. That will keep everyone on the same FETs (assuming everyone runs ASF cars). I would allow ICS tuning though, and encourage equipment sharing for those who need to borrow a cable. Or even have a computer at the track with the software and cable, I think that'd be a nice gesture. If that is not possible, then you still cannot practically restrict it because it's a PITA to tech every car and read its ICS settings after every race.

In order to keep the racing not too serious, the motor performance needs to be determined by luck alone. Comm drops need to be banned, bearing oil either banned or encouraged to be shared between racers. No ceramic bearings allowed.

After that, you'll have to limit the motor mounts people can run. If PN pods are out, then equivalently you'll have to disallow everything else too except for the stock pod, for fairness.

This will have the unintended effect of limiting gear ratio options, so you either have to restrict gearing too to 0.5M gears, or accept that someone is going to figure out how to gear up and mesh a 126p gearset together (then everyone else is screwed). I suggest limiting gearing options to 0.5M gears only, although modification to the stock motor mount may be allowed to achieve better gear mesh.

With the motor pod and drivetrain set, you can move onto rear damping. To make things easy and painless, I suggest only disk dampers and top shocks allowed. You probably don't want people messing around with trying to hack a tri-shock onto the stock mount, or perhaps even using the Kyosho RML side damper set with an RM mount (this would, however, be pretty clever if someone got it to work). Keep it simple and common, disk dampers, top shocks, and T-plates. Specifically stating that top shocks only qualify as those that cannot significantly affect pod roll. I would personally elect to allow different T-plate mounts. They're cheap and yet a pretty versatile tuning tool, if anyone doesn't have one I would actually suggest getting one.

Now the front end is tricky -- I would want to limit people to more affordable front ends without singling any one brand's product out. Perhaps the rule should be that the stock upper and lower covers must be used and intact. That will rule out adjustable tower bars, double A-arm systems, and generally simplify carpet setup where more flex and a lower roll center is better anyways. I don't think I would limit more than this though, I simply want to make sure that it's impossible to spend a boatload of cash on the front end in the quest for speed. Let people play with springs, knuckles, shims, reversing kingpins -- all that stuff is cheap and effective on carpet.

Oh yeah, 4AAA NiMH only. Can't forget that. Homebrew modification should be allowed as long as it doesn't interfere with other cars/racers. You might as well disallow tire modification since the Kyosho kit motor will not demand any more grip than Kyosho 30/20 radials provide. Those tires will last all day long and grip fine at such low power levels, I see no reason to introduce more tuning variables other than compound choice.

Lastly, while I'm in full support of keeping chassis uncut/unmodified, I'm personally in favor of allowing body modifications. It allows more bodies to be made competitive and keeps the racing closer, especially when an SC430 with a cut-off splitter can graze the wall and slow down only a little vs. the full splitter hooking the rail just a bit too close and causing the poor SC430 to collect everyone else within a few feet behind it. Giving racers more confidence to push harder would be a secondary priority on top of making sure the cars are within a reasonable range of performance levels.

I think that's all I have in mind -- would love to hear some feedback. Does my proposal match the cars of the racers you're looking to attract? Lightly modified, low power, a tad faster and more refined than Box Stock.

EMU
2011.07.08, 08:31 PM
I must say that I do like the effort to reduce entry into Mini-Z. To get into the scale, and buy the car, transmitter, chargers, batteries... you have dropped a decent amount of coin. Then to go to a racetrack and realize that you 'have' to spend another couple hundred to bring your car up to speed, it really disheartening. Realistically, you dont need all the mods to have a raceworthy car. But to a newcomer, they will think that is why the fast guys are fast.

At Cruizin RC, where we race with the same carpet as R241 (but we use silicone tires instead of Kyosho rubber), the owner Ron races with very few upgrades, even uses the plastic LM mount... and he is very tough to beat. He primarily does this to show that you dont need the a car built with all the latest aftermarket parts to be fast, which helps ease the new racers into the hobby. I feel that with aftermarket parts, it is easier to tune the car and get it dialed, but even with stock parts, the cars are plenty quick.

How much tuning and adjustment with the stock parts are going to be allowed for this box stock class? Can the MR03 kingpins be flipped and cut to run a reverse kingpin setup? Can the gear diff be greased? Can the t-plate be preloaded by a grub screw in the t-plate adapter? Can the motormount be shimmed to lower the car? Can the front clip be shimmed, changed to a different bodies clip or bent to lower the body? Can side body clips be moved up or down to change the aero/CG properties? These are all things that are not necessarily upgrades, but are tuning adjustments with the stock parts that can make a major change in the handling and I feel should be outlined in the rules if they are not allowed, otherwise it is an open invitation to people that may look for all advantages that they can within the rules.

color01
2011.07.08, 08:55 PM
Practically speaking, carpet really doesn't need as many mods to the car as RCP does. With lower grip and lower speeds, it's more about tires and driving than durability or having a finely tuned front roll center to avoid traction rolling at the limit. To use the stock motor mount in Mod, though... Ron is a BAMF. Those things warp so easily with Mod motors, which is one reason to buy the aluminum pod -- it's a great heatsink.


The way mugler intended Box Stock to run was with no geometry or structural changes allowed whatsoever: no flipping kingpins, no shims, grub screws or greases (no adding parts to the car!). That said, I think it'd be acceptable to let new Mini-Z owners get a little creative with their rides AFTER the season opener: the stock MR02 and MR03 kits have a little bit of extra plastic included, it's never just the chassis alone; letting owners use kit-included shims, or cut spring perches to make some ad hoc shims, would be fun and perfectly acceptable in my mind. As long as it's obtainable within one ARR or RTR kit (therefore available to everyone in Box Stock), I think it should be fair game. Mixing and matching bodies and body clips though is more questionable, since you'd obviously have to have obtained it outside the kit -- no standard Mini-Z kit comes with more than one body.

bermbuster
2011.07.08, 09:09 PM
Following EMU's lead, the first thing to rule out is ESC upgrades. That will keep everyone on the same FETs (assuming everyone runs ASF cars). I would allow ICS tuning though, and encourage equipment sharing for those who need to borrow a cable. Or even have a computer at the track with the software and cable, I think that'd be a nice gesture. If that is not possible, then you still cannot practically restrict it because it's a PITA to tech every car and read its ICS settings after every race.

In order to keep the racing not too serious, the motor performance needs to be determined by luck alone. Comm drops need to be banned, bearing oil either banned or encouraged to be shared between racers. No ceramic bearings allowed.

After that, you'll have to limit the motor mounts people can run. If PN pods are out, then equivalently you'll have to disallow everything else too except for the stock pod, for fairness.

This will have the unintended effect of limiting gear ratio options, so you either have to restrict gearing too to 0.5M gears, or accept that someone is going to figure out how to gear up and mesh a 126p gearset together (then everyone else is screwed). I suggest limiting gearing options to 0.5M gears only, although modification to the stock motor mount may be allowed to achieve better gear mesh.

With the motor pod and drivetrain set, you can move onto rear damping. To make things easy and painless, I suggest only disk dampers and top shocks allowed. You probably don't want people messing around with trying to hack a tri-shock onto the stock mount, or perhaps even using the Kyosho RML side damper set with an RM mount (this would, however, be pretty clever if someone got it to work). Keep it simple and common, disk dampers, top shocks, and T-plates. Specifically stating that top shocks only qualify as those that cannot significantly affect pod roll. I would personally elect to allow different T-plate mounts. They're cheap and yet a pretty versatile tuning tool, if anyone doesn't have one I would actually suggest getting one.

Now the front end is tricky -- I would want to limit people to more affordable front ends without singling any one brand's product out. Perhaps the rule should be that the stock upper and lower covers must be used and intact. That will rule out adjustable tower bars, double A-arm systems, and generally simplify carpet setup where more flex and a lower roll center is better anyways. I don't think I would limit more than this though, I simply want to make sure that it's impossible to spend a boatload of cash on the front end in the quest for speed. Let people play with springs, knuckles, shims, reversing kingpins -- all that stuff is cheap and effective on carpet.

Oh yeah, 4AAA NiMH only. Can't forget that. Homebrew modification should be allowed as long as it doesn't interfere with other cars/racers. You might as well disallow tire modification since the Kyosho kit motor will not demand any more grip than Kyosho 30/20 radials provide. Those tires will last all day long and grip fine at such low power levels, I see no reason to introduce more tuning variables other than compound choice.

Lastly, while I'm in full support of keeping chassis uncut/unmodified, I'm personally in favor of allowing body modifications. It allows more bodies to be made competitive and keeps the racing closer, especially when an SC430 with a cut-off splitter can graze the wall and slow down only a little vs. the full splitter hooking the rail just a bit too close and causing the poor SC430 to collect everyone else within a few feet behind it. Giving racers more confidence to push harder would be a secondary priority on top of making sure the cars are within a reasonable range of performance levels.

I think that's all I have in mind -- would love to hear some feedback. Does my proposal match the cars of the racers you're looking to attract? Lightly modified, low power, a tad faster and more refined than Box Stock.

great post Brian.
I just realized something. While PN makes awesome parts (90% of my hop ups are PN) they are the aftermarket.....Kyosho is the manufacturer. In the future to help this stock class take off PN and others should make a "stock legal motormount". Kyosho can down the road "tweak" and "tune" the rules for minimal hop ups and really let the class develop into an entry level class where racers do not have to invest loads of $$$ to be competitive. Then the aftermarket can introduce "Kyosho approved hop ups".....
This way it becomes a win win situation for all of us......:D

trl
2011.07.09, 06:51 AM
The postings here are top notch, great insight and commentary on our hobby going beyond Mini-Zs. Regarding Summer Shootout - any Kyosho event is really designed to sell Kyosho Cars and Kyosho parts. Keeping R241 open isn't really 'free' :rolleyes:, it's a business decision.

Tamiya Track just up the street, TCS rule 2: 'All Tamiya vehicles must use Tamiya parts only. No parts from other manufactures unless specified'

So to drum up US Mini-Z interest, Kyosho allows other manufacturers in GT Stock and Mod, which is a great gesture. We should keep this in mind when making the rules as we go along. They have every right to keep other manufacturers off their track (probably a Japan mandate :D). Doing so alienates a portion of local Z interest but we should still be mindful of Kyosho's business decision.

arch2b
2011.07.09, 05:17 PM
just wanted to let you know i am using your kyosho usa stock class rules for our stock class racing locally :) finally got it all settled today and at least 2 local hobby shops are going to begin stock class racing with these rules.

thanks again for pushing stock class!

greenepa76
2011.07.09, 08:19 PM
TRL, I'm glad you recognize that Mini-z's are where they are because of the aftermarket options that make them very "race worthy". I honestly don't think that Mini-Z's would have survived as well as they do in North America (or worldwide) had there not been any aftermarket support. Look at the forums and what type of parts are always being mentioned and requested by newbies. The Mini-z's are nice stock and race worthy to some extent, but sales usually happen when people see their potential at the pro racing levels of mini-z's. Kyosho is hosting this event as a business decision as you say and all 3 classes will showcase the Mini-Z potential on all levels. It's even more helpful that another sponsor will be there to help with the newbies that may show up with questions who might want to graduate to higher performance levels later should they decide to stay with the Z's. There are many aspects of Mini-z's that allow us all to choose to stay within the scale vs. the others and I don't think I need to disclose that, otherwise we wouldn't be here on this forum.

TRL, I personally feel you may have been the guy that planted the seed for box stock locally in So-Cal since we bought all those 355 Challenge Ferrari's to run a spec class at work. I ran the same very car at Kenon club races and didn't finish last with it either in a small field of cars worth hundreds of dollars more and look where the class is expanding now! Even Arch2b is pushing it in his local scene. :cool:

With all the support we have for Mini-z's, manufacturer and aftermarket alike, the track turnouts are usually low no matter where you go unless you group together people from several hundred miles away in the same state to hold an event. Even then, the marketshare of 1/28 scale racing is minuscule when you compare it to 1/10 anything. So Tamiya's limited serious racing ability with their 85% plastic compenents in their entry level cars are very similar to the Mini-z market, very limited! Until you open up tuning options of course and that will bring on more speed and skill and only the more dedicated and serious skilled drivers/racers will continue.

I don't understand the need for "Tamiya" rules to be brought up as TCS rules are Tamiya's own and Kyosho's decisions are also their own, and we all appreciate what Kyosho can do for the Mini-z community to expand interest. With respect to your post, I do hope Kyosho America can create a set of dedicated and more stringent rules later if Z interest and events expand, but at the current interest level, the Mini-Z world stateside could use as much help they can get to spark interests from all experience levels, so a Mini-z is not just recognized as a cute table sized toy you can "race" on your kitchen floor or drift in a dorm room. ;)

Hopefully, this event can be a purposeful business decision on Kyosho America's part and show Mini-z owners they want to push the Mini-Z scene by sponsoring and supporting Mini-z's on a fun racing level and not just provide customer service for 90 days after your purchase. :) .....not that there is anything wrong with Kyosho's top notch CS!

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.10, 05:37 PM
Hello Everyone,

Kyosho Stock seems to be good as is and everyone seems pretty excited about this class so for now it will stay as is.

However I had a great meeting with Grant ( Yasuji ) this morning as well some of our local regulars and we think we may have keyed in some fixes to the rules for GT Stock and GT Mod to make even more people happy including my bosses in Japan. I will post more details Monday afternoon and Hopefully these minor fixes will help appease more people. Stay tuned.

-KVP

arch2b
2011.07.10, 05:52 PM
i look forward to seeing what the tweaks are. a kyosho motor with drilled can would seem to take care of most of the issues discussed. it's been an issue for a very long time and the main reason why HFAY moved away from kyosho stock motors. yes, HFAY was kyosho stock motor class in the begining:p the limitations of the stock can necessitated we move away from it though. there was a time then that most people i know clamored for a stock motor...

bermbuster
2011.07.10, 07:57 PM
Hello Everyone,

Kyosho Stock seems to be good as is and everyone seems pretty excited about this class so for now it will stay as is.

However I had a great meeting with Grant ( Yasuji ) this morning as well some of our local regulars and we think we may have keyed in some fixes to the rules for GT Stock and GT Mod to make even more people happy including my bosses in Japan. I will post more details Monday afternoon and Hopefully these minor fixes will help appease more people. Stay tuned.

-KVP

I knew once there was a meeting of minds great things would happen......
When will be the next practice? I bummed I missed today......

Cherub1m
2011.07.10, 09:12 PM
Here are the rules if any changes happen between now and the event, it will be sooner then later and posted here and on the Kyosho America website.

Kyosho Summer Shoot Out Rules. (Ver. 1.3) Updated on July8th

KYOSHO STOCK (Featured Class)
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, & MR-03 Mini-Z Chassis with original kit motor. Chassis can be any configuration including LM. Body and wheels must match those that came on original kit. (i.e. no mix and match wheels and offsets.)

• No chassis, ESC or body modification allowed (exception hole may be drilled in rear deck lid of Ferrari F355 to allow for damper)

The only Kyosho option parts allowed are the following:
• Any Kyosho Brand Rubber tire (No grooving, cutting or silicone based tires allowed)
• Ball Bearings (any none ceramic)
• Rear Shock Set (#MZ206)
• No Gyro Allowed


GT Stock
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, MR-03 & MA-010 Mini-Z Chassis. Chassis can be any configuration including LM.

• Must use original kit motor.
• No drilling or cutting of chassis.
• Any option part Kyosho or aftermarket can be used.
• Any Brand Rubber tire (No grooving, cutting or silicone based tires allowed)
• No drilling of motors for mounting
• No Gyro Allowed



GT Mod
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, MR-03 & MA-010 Mini-Z Chassis. Chassis can be any configuration including LM.

• Any option part Kyosho or aftermarket can be used.
• Any rubber tire Kyosho or aftermarket (none silicone based) can be used.
• Any motor Kyosho or aftermarket can be used.

Hello Everyone,

Kyosho Stock seems to be good as is and everyone seems pretty excited about this class so for now it will stay as is.

However I had a great meeting with Grant ( Yasuji ) this morning as well some of our local regulars and we think we may have keyed in some fixes to the rules for GT Stock and GT Mod to make even more people happy including my bosses in Japan. I will post more details Monday afternoon and Hopefully these minor fixes will help appease more people. Stay tuned.

-KVP

Great!!! can't waiting to see what you guys come up with. So far I like Ver. 1.3

greenepa76
2011.07.10, 09:50 PM
For the guys that are attending the Summer shootout event, you won't be disappointed! The rules get better, but I will let KVP or Yasuji do all the talking in case things change after today, but I'm looking definitely looking forward to running more now than ever.

For those that are curious, the traction on the carpet is building up with this new layout and there's one more weekend left for testing, so get out there while you can for some setup time. We have recommended baseline settings that work should anyone decide to show up. Amazingly, the near stock cars with recommended tires still seem to run best as the body roll really helps with traction at near stock ride heights. The stock classes will definitely be the most popular with the new rule set.;)

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.11, 02:35 PM
Hello All I am awaiting some final comfirmation on some details from the guys at P/N but here is a preview of the upcoming rules changes:

Kyosho Stock will stay the same but will now be called Kyosho EX to prevent any further confusion for those who keep thinking it is a true Box stock class (a true box stock class would not allow tires and bearings). This also keeps it from being confused with GT Stock.

GT Stock will have the largest changes but will mostly confirm to the rules that most of you run in the So Cal area currently with some very minor changes ( Rubber tires only none silicone is one example) The current crop of hardcore Mini-Z racers will gravitate to this class.

GT Mod It has been made clear to us by many that GT Modified Locally does not draw much interest compared to Stock. Because of this and the frequent requests from drivers and retailers who wish to run a class with "bolt on" modifications from a limited catalog we decided the best option was to use this to both help those who feel diss-advantaged by the GT Stock rules as well as appease Japan and providing a class that would help drivers run in a class more in line with Kyosho World Cup regs. Because of this we are going to call this class Kyosho Cup.


More details will be up shortly, but we think this solution will help us get things started off on the best foot possible. More details to follow very shortly.

color01
2011.07.11, 02:44 PM
America finally gets Kyosho Cup again, huh? I'm curious, please let us know what it will look like. :)

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.11, 05:34 PM
Final update coming soon.

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.11, 05:37 PM
I knew once there was a meeting of minds great things would happen......
When will be the next practice? I bummed I missed today......

The next practice will be on the 24th of July the Sunday prior to the race.

yasuji
2011.07.11, 06:07 PM
Sorry for any confusion but rather then just putting out rules and forcing everyone to fall in line we felt for this first event we would use it to gauge input and adjust rules accordingly. We have met with Grant (Yasuji) and come up with a compromise that should make most of you happy.

Kyosho Summer Shoot Out Rules.
(Ver. 2.0) Updated on July11th
Kyosho Summer Shoot Out 2011 Saturday July 30th
Doors open 9am. Registration / Check-in begins at 9am Racing starts 11am

Kyosho EX (Formally called Kyosho Stock)
All Parts (sans bearings) must be Kyosho Brand.
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, & MR-03 Mini-Z Chassis with original kit motor. Chassis can be any configuration including LM.
Chassis - No modification (shaving or drilling.)
PCB - No Modification allowed (i.e. adding FET’s etc.) No Gyro Allowed
Bodies - Must be Kyosho Kit or Autoscale body, no white bodies allowed. Modification (shaving or drilling, adding wings etc) not allowed. (Exception hole may be drilled in rear deck lid of Ferrari F355 to allow for damper clearance.)

Wheels – Kyosho Plastic wheels only. Styles must match i.e. BBS fronts must be paired with the proper BBS rears, colors can mix and match. Wheels/tires must fit inside the body without rubbing.
Tires - Kyosho Brand Rubber tire (No grooving, cutting or silicone based tires allowed)
Batteries - Cars must be powered by four AAA batteries. Alkaline, Ni-MH or Ni-Cd batteries may be used. No other type of battery may be used. For example: Lithium Polymer may not be used.
The only option parts allowed are the following:
• Ball Bearings (any none ceramic)
• Kyosho Rear Shock Set (#MZ206)
• No aftermarket option parts allowed (sans ball bearing)

*NOTE: Cars running within the EX Specification are also eligible to run in the GT stock class as is. (Including Kyosho Kit Motor)

Kyosho Cup (formally GT Mod)
All Parts (sans bearings) must be Kyosho Brand.
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, & MR-03 Mini-Z Chassis with original kit motor. Chassis can be any configuration including LM.
Chassis - No modification involving shaving or drilling unless required by Kyosho/R246 manual for installation.
PCB - No Modification allowed (i.e. adding FET’s etc.) No Gyro Allowed
Bodies - Must be Kyosho Kit or Autoscale body, or white body. Modification minor shaving or drilling allowed for clearance purposes. Windows must be installed.

Wheels – Any Kyosho wheel.

Tires - Any Kyosho Brand Rubber tire (No grooving, cutting or silicone based tires allowed)
Batteries - Cars must be powered by four AAA batteries. Alkaline, Ni-MH or Ni-Cd batteries may be used. No other type of battery may be used. For example: Lithium Polymer may not be used.
Option Parts - All Kyosho & R246 option parts allowed.



GT Stock
Chassis
90mm to 98mm Wheel Base, Kyosho Mini-Z MR01, MR015, MR02 and MR03 only. Kyosho colored chassis may be used.

MOTOR
P/N 80T motor. The motors are to be run as is. Any modifying/tampering with the motor will result in disqualification. If any race official suspects motor tampering, the driver will be subject to disqualification.
PCB
Drivers MUST be use the Kyosho PCB AM, 2.4G and KO AD brand only. Any modification allowed. Gyro NOT allowed.

Chassis
90mm to 98mm Wheel Base, Kyosho Mini-Z MR01, MR015, MR02 and MR03 only. Kyosho colored chassis may be used.

Body
Kyosho Mini-Z and TRP Scale body only, Le Mans body NOT allowed, all windshield and window must be installed.

Body Modifications
• Bodies may be functionally modified with minimal effect external appearance. The following non-comprehensive list of body modifications are allowed:
• The rear bumper may be removed up to Maximum 20mm from the ground.
• Wheel wells may be cut forward or backward to accommodate different wheelbase chassis.
• Wheel wells may be cut or chamfered internally for tire clearance.
• Lower portions of the body may be cut for ground clearance in front, sides or rear.
• Body material may be shaved or thinned internally for weight reduction. Technical inspection officials reserve the right to disqualify any modified body deemed to be too fragile due to excessive material removal.
• Body panels may be reinforced or strengthened internally without affecting external appearance.
• Original windshield and windows must be installed, but can be modified by cutting unexposed internal areas.
• Original headlight covers must be installed, but headlight buckets may be removed or omitted. In the event that a headlight cover is lost, the hole may be covered with a decal.
• Taillights and taillight covers may be removed or omitted.
• Small body parts such as mirrors, canards, exhausts may be omitted or removed to prevent racing damage and debris on track.
• All rear wing comes with the body may be installed according to the no height limited. Custom wings allow to use on the body, according to the height limited 45mm from the ground.
• The above list is non-comprehensive. The purpose and spirit of the rules is to allow functional performance modifications to the body while preserving the scale appearance and realism. The technical inspector has final authority in the judgment of body modification legality.
• If you have modified your body and have questions regarding the legality of the modifications, please submit the body in question to technical inspection PRIOR to racing qualification or main event round. This is in order to prevent any inadvertent disqualifications. The technical inspector will judge the legality of body modifications and photograph the body in its legal state if necessary.
• If the body is further modified post-inspection, the modifications may or may not be legal. For the racer's protection, please re-submit the body in question to technical inspection IMMEDIATELY if significant modifications are made.
• If the body is damaged, the condition of the body may or may not be legal. For the racer's protection, please submit the body in question to technical inspection IMMEDIATELY if significant damage occurs. If the damaged body is judged illegal, it must be repaired or replaced for the next qualification or main event round. Qualification or main event results during which racing damage occurs on track will be allowed, as long as the body is not judged to be intentionally designed to break away to benefit performance.

Bearings
Any type of bearing by any manufacturer is allowed. For example: Ceramics are allowed.

Batteries
Cars must be powered by four AAA batteries. Alkaline, Ni-MH or Ni-Cd batteries may be used. No other type of battery may be used. For example: Lithium Polymer may not be used.

Wheel Rims
All brand Plastic and Aluminum rims are allowed. Maximum front wheel width is 8.5mm. Maximum rear wheel width is 11mm. Maximum wheel diameter is 21mm. LM-size wheels and tires are NOT ALLOWED.
• All wheel rims must be original, any modification is not allowed.

Tires
Any Brand of Rubber / Silicone tire may be used. No foam tires allowed. No tire insert use. No traction compounds allowed on tire or on race surface. Tire warmers are allowed. Tires may be cleaned with a 70% alcohol solution. If a driver uses tire cleaner that has been deemed illegal, the driver will be subject to any penalties that apply. Please address any questions concerning tire cleaners at the drivers meeting.

Hop Up Parts

Drivers may use any Kyosho or after market parts available. All upgrades must conform to all other rules posted in this document. All upgrades must be designed for the chasse that the upgrade has been installed on. No upgrade will be allowed if the upgrade will interfere with the cars of other drivers. The racing director, tech inspectors and race officials reserve the right to disqualify any part deemed improper based on fairness and possible interference.
Chassis
90mm to 102mm Wheel Base, Kyosho Mini-Z MR01, MR015, MR02 and MR03 only. Kyosho colored chassis may be used.

Body
Kyosho Mini-Z and TRP Scale body only, Le Mans body also allowed, all windshield and window must be installed.
Tires
Any Brand of Rubber /NO Silicone tire may be used. No foam tires allowed. No tire insert use. No traction compounds allowed on tire or on race surface. Tire warmers are allowed. Tires may be cleaned with a 70% alcohol solution. If a driver uses tire cleaner that has been deemed illegal, the driver will be subject to any penalties that apply. Please address any questions concerning tire cleaners at the drivers meeting.

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.11, 06:19 PM
Rules updated. ( See Above )

Cherub1m
2011.07.11, 07:38 PM
Sorry for any confusion but rather then just putting out rules and forcing everyone to fall in line we felt for this first event we would use it to gauge input and adjust rules accordingly. We have met with Grant (Yasuji) and come up with a compromise that should make most of you happy.

Kyosho Summer Shoot Out Rules.
(Ver. 2.0) Updated on July11th
Kyosho Summer Shoot Out 2011 Saturday July 30th
Doors open 9am. Registration / Check-in begins at 9am Racing starts 11am

Kyosho EX (Formally called Kyosho Stock)
All Parts (sans bearings) must be Kyosho Brand.
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, & MR-03 Mini-Z Chassis with original kit motor. Chassis can be any configuration including LM.
Chassis - No modification (shaving or drilling.)
PCB - No Modification allowed (i.e. adding FET’s etc.) No Gyro Allowed
Bodies - Must be Kyosho Kit or Autoscale body, no white bodies allowed. Modification (shaving or drilling, adding wings etc) not allowed. (Exception hole may be drilled in rear deck lid of Ferrari F355 to allow for damper clearance.)

Wheels – Kyosho Plastic wheels only. Styles must match i.e. BBS fronts must be paired with the proper BBS rears, colors can mix and match. Wheels/tires must fit inside the body without rubbing.
Tires - Kyosho Brand Rubber tire (No grooving, cutting or silicone based tires allowed)
Batteries - Cars must be powered by four AAA batteries. Alkaline, Ni-MH or Ni-Cd batteries may be used. No other type of battery may be used. For example: Lithium Polymer may not be used.
The only option parts allowed are the following:
• Ball Bearings (any none ceramic)
• Kyosho Rear Shock Set (#MZ206)
• No aftermarket option parts allowed (sans ball bearing)

*NOTE: Cars running within the EX Specification are also eligible to run in the GT stock class as is. (Including Kyosho Kit Motor)

Kyosho Cup (formally GT Mod)
All Parts (sans bearings) must be Kyosho Brand.
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, & MR-03 Mini-Z Chassis with original kit motor. Chassis can be any configuration including LM.
Chassis - No modification involving shaving or drilling unless required by Kyosho/R246 manual for installation.
PCB - No Modification allowed (i.e. adding FET’s etc.) No Gyro Allowed
Bodies - Must be Kyosho Kit or Autoscale body, or white body. Modification minor shaving or drilling allowed for clearance purposes. Windows must be installed.

Wheels – Any Kyosho wheel.

Tires - Any Kyosho Brand Rubber tire (No grooving, cutting or silicone based tires allowed)
Batteries - Cars must be powered by four AAA batteries. Alkaline, Ni-MH or Ni-Cd batteries may be used. No other type of battery may be used. For example: Lithium Polymer may not be used.
Option Parts - All Kyosho & R246 option parts allowed.



GT Stock
Chassis
90mm to 102mm Wheel Base, Kyosho Mini-Z MR01, MR015, MR02 and MR03 only. Kyosho colored chassis may be used.

MOTOR
P/N 80T motor. The motors are to be run as is. Any modifying/tampering with the motor will result in disqualification. If any race official suspects motor tampering, the driver will be subject to disqualification.
PCB
Drivers MUST be use the Kyosho PCB AM, 2.4G and KO AD brand only. Any modification allowed. Gyro NOT allowed.

Body
Kyosho Mini-Z and TRP Scale body only, Le Mans body also allowed, all windshield and window must be installed.

Body Modifications
• Bodies may be functionally modified with minimal effect external appearance. The following non-comprehensive list of body modifications are allowed:
• The rear bumper may be removed up to Maximum 20mm from the ground.
• Wheel wells may be cut forward or backward to accommodate different wheelbase chassis.
• Wheel wells may be cut or chamfered internally for tire clearance.
• Lower portions of the body may be cut for ground clearance in front, sides or rear.
• Body material may be shaved or thinned internally for weight reduction. Technical inspection officials reserve the right to disqualify any modified body deemed to be too fragile due to excessive material removal.
• Body panels may be reinforced or strengthened internally without affecting external appearance.
• Original windshield and windows must be installed, but can be modified by cutting unexposed internal areas.
• Original headlight covers must be installed, but headlight buckets may be removed or omitted. In the event that a headlight cover is lost, the hole may be covered with a decal.
• Taillights and taillight covers may be removed or omitted.
• Small body parts such as mirrors, canards, exhausts may be omitted or removed to prevent racing damage and debris on track.
• All rear wing comes with the body may be installed according to the no height limited. Custom wings allow to use on the body, according to the height limited 45mm from the ground.
• The above list is non-comprehensive. The purpose and spirit of the rules is to allow functional performance modifications to the body while preserving the scale appearance and realism. The technical inspector has final authority in the judgment of body modification legality.
• If you have modified your body and have questions regarding the legality of the modifications, please submit the body in question to technical inspection PRIOR to racing qualification or main event round. This is in order to prevent any inadvertent disqualifications. The technical inspector will judge the legality of body modifications and photograph the body in its legal state if necessary.
• If the body is further modified post-inspection, the modifications may or may not be legal. For the racer's protection, please re-submit the body in question to technical inspection IMMEDIATELY if significant modifications are made.
• If the body is damaged, the condition of the body may or may not be legal. For the racer's protection, please submit the body in question to technical inspection IMMEDIATELY if significant damage occurs. If the damaged body is judged illegal, it must be repaired or replaced for the next qualification or main event round. Qualification or main event results during which racing damage occurs on track will be allowed, as long as the body is not judged to be intentionally designed to break away to benefit performance.

Bearings
Any type of bearing by any manufacturer is allowed. For example: Ceramics are allowed.

Batteries
Cars must be powered by four AAA batteries. Alkaline, Ni-MH or Ni-Cd batteries may be used. No other type of battery may be used. For example: Lithium Polymer may not be used.

Wheel Rims
All brand Plastic and Aluminum rims are allowed. Maximum front wheel width is 8.5mm. Maximum rear wheel width is 11mm. Maximum wheel diameter is 21mm. LM-size wheels and tires are NOT ALLOWED.
• All wheel rims must be original, any modification is not allowed.

Tires
Any Brand of Rubber, NO Silicone tire may be used. No foam tires allowed. No tire insert use. No traction compounds allowed on tire or on race surface. Tire warmers are allowed. Tires may be cleaned with a 70% alcohol solution. If a driver uses tire cleaner that has been deemed illegal, the driver will be subject to any penalties that apply. Please address any questions concerning tire cleaners at the drivers meeting.

Hop Up Parts

Drivers may use any Kyosho or after market parts available. All upgrades must conform to all other rules posted in this document. All upgrades must be designed for the chasse that the upgrade has been installed on. No upgrade will be allowed if the upgrade will interfere with the cars of other drivers. The racing director, tech inspectors and race officials reserve the right to disqualify any part deemed improper based on fairness and possible interference.

Something is missing...MR 010 (AKA AWD) Tell me this is not so... not even in GT Mod... I liked Ver. 1.3 it at least had the MR 010 in GT Mod and GT Stock. This Ver. 2.0 has no mention of the MR 010. I don't like Ver. 2.0 :mad:

At least give the AWD a chance in GT Mod

I am waiting for Ver. 2.1

EMU
2011.07.11, 09:28 PM
Something is missing...MR 010 (AKA AWD) Tell me this is not so... not even in GT Mod... I liked Ver. 1.3 it at least had the MR 010 in GT Mod and GT Stock. This Ver. 2.0 has no mention of the MR 010. I don't like Ver. 2.0 :mad:

At least give the AWD a chance in GT Mod

I am waiting for Ver. 2.1

GT Mod has been changed into the Kyosho Cup class, another stock motor class with only Kyosho parts. People dont like modified classes? We only run mod, minus the 90mm narrow class on the same carpet :p

Even on the carpet, I dont see the MA010 being faster than a 2wd with the box or 80t motor, so I can see why it is excluded from the rules. I think it should still be an option, even if its slower. As there is no current class that permits it.

The Kyosho Cup class states that the parts must be Kyosho. Does this include R246 parts due to the affiliation with Kyosho?

Being that the NE PN regional has been moved to a date that I cannot attend, I had thought about trying to go to this event for my summer event, but with no mod and no AWD... I think I may have to pass, plus it would be a difficult/expensive trip (although it is a good draw having a big race at the Kyosho track, I went to the first KO race because it was the first Mini-Z race sponsored by KO). I know it will be great racing with stock classes, but there isnt enough of a draw to travel across the country for the race without Mod/AWD.

arch2b
2011.07.11, 10:04 PM
Option Parts - All Kyosho & R246 option parts allowed..... it's there.

color01
2011.07.11, 10:11 PM
SoCal hasn't wholly embraced Mod yet, sadly, so I guess that might be where the decision is coming from. While I'd miss it too, I do tend to like stock 80t for the ridiculous battles you can have on carpet -- in Mod you and I both had trouble keeping our game together for 3 minutes, lol.

Shame on me, I didn't even notice the lack of AWD. :o Those could be fit in anywhere honestly, might as well give people an opportunity to run what they brung, who knows maybe Cherub's front-one-way MA010 is the way to go. :)

ruf
2011.07.11, 10:22 PM
Alright guys, great discussion on rules, etc. but let's get ready to RACE!!! I'll be on the mic and running in Open Stock class.

That being said, I'm glad I've finally made the switch to Mod. The car feels like it used to back in 2005 when we actually DROVE the things. My opinion is that "experienced" drivers need to quit sandbagging Stock at the club level to remove the "intimidation" factor. Big event Pro Stock races are of course awesome for pack racing. AWD, let them run.

Thanks to big K for trying to do the right things to grow the Mini-Z scene in the US and learn from other scales and other countries. I think that Kyosho Stock really has legs if we can keep the sandbaggers out. At the same time, we need to have somewhere for them to progress - i.e. Cup classes and Open classes. IMO, a "box stock" class is not about removing all the competitive variables but "driving skill" for experienced racers. Inevitably, that leads to "cheater stock" in any scale (spec Miata anyone?) "Box stock" is about addressing the barriers to new entry.

I honestly don't think that there is that much "variation" in Open classes in terms of hardware. I'll pretty much guarantee that most A-main drivers could swap cars and have them dialed in pretty close within hours. Just different ways to skin a cat and different flags to fly.

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.11, 11:10 PM
I understand the concern about AWD. For GT Stock I will ask Grant his thoughts. I know in the year we've had R241 we have had maybe only 4 AWD cars ever show up. To be honest we've had more F-1 cars come out then AWD. Nothing against AWD ( I have one myself ) however I understand the resistance not to mix and match AWD and 2WD. They tend to have a different driving line and it often leads to an increase in incidents. That being said if we have enough of an interest who knows I'm sure we could possibly have a fun unofficial class until numbers increase to point that an individual class is possible same thing for F-1.

yasuji
2011.07.11, 11:12 PM
Something is missing...MR 010 (AKA AWD) Tell me this is not so... not even in GT Mod... I liked Ver. 1.3 it at least had the MR 010 in GT Mod and GT Stock. This Ver. 2.0 has no mention of the MR 010. I don't like Ver. 2.0 :mad:

At least give the AWD a chance in GT Mod

I am waiting for Ver. 2.1
there is no more gtmod.... however i will add the ma010 to the gt stock class!:rolleyes:

greenepa76
2011.07.11, 11:14 PM
Cliff, I happen to run two of the AWD cars you've seen. The little white Subaru and the Xanavi GTR. The lines are very different and shouldn't be run at the same time. I have to go wide with those and stay on the throttle. It would be fun to have a AWD only class since they do work well on that track, except if they're racing against a field of modded 2WD cars.

yasuji
2011.07.11, 11:15 PM
GT Mod has been changed into the Kyosho Cup class, another stock motor class with only Kyosho parts. People dont like modified classes? We only run mod, minus the 90mm narrow class on the same carpet :p

Even on the carpet, I dont see the MA010 being faster than a 2wd with the box or 80t motor, so I can see why it is excluded from the rules. I think it should still be an option, even if its slower. As there is no current class that permits it.

The Kyosho Cup class states that the parts must be Kyosho. Does this include R246 parts due to the affiliation with Kyosho?

Being that the NE PN regional has been moved to a date that I cannot attend, I had thought about trying to go to this event for my summer event, but with no mod and no AWD... I think I may have to pass, plus it would be a difficult/expensive trip (although it is a good draw having a big race at the Kyosho track, I went to the first KO race because it was the first Mini-Z race sponsored by KO). I know it will be great racing with stock classes, but there isnt enough of a draw to travel across the country for the race without Mod/AWD.
see above post!;)

emu.... come for this race and the fpr pnwc regional the following weekend!:D

yasuji
2011.07.12, 10:50 AM
also or those who plan to run the Summer Shoot Out there will also be racing @ the local carpet track TQ in chino that sunday
we will be running open gt mini-z on 90ft straightaway!:eek::D

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.12, 11:57 AM
Cliff, I happen to run two of the AWD cars you've seen. The little white Subaru and the Xanavi GTR. The lines are very different and shouldn't be run at the same time. I have to go wide with those and stay on the throttle. It would be fun to have a AWD only class since they do work well on that track, except if they're racing against a field of modded 2WD cars.
Yeah I think your two plus mine and one other person makes up the four I spoke of.:D

I agree with you the line is very different and hopefully there will be an opportunity one day give AWD it's own class.

Rules are having their final updates as you read this and AWD will be allowed in GT Stock. Some very minor tweaks more like clarifications will be posted with the next/final update.

Cherub1m
2011.07.12, 03:45 PM
Yeah I think your two plus mine and one other person makes up the four I spoke of.:D

I agree with you the line is very different and hopefully there will be an opportunity one day give AWD it's own class.

Rules are having their final updates as you read this and AWD will be allowed in GT Stock. Some very minor tweaks more like clarifications will be posted with the next/final update.

Yeah well that is one of the reasons AWD is not a popular class (not the only one). On RCP AWD is not has competitive because traction is to high. On carpet its just as competitive if not more when in mod class (I am biased). Stock AWD class is a joke. And having stock AWD class will further kill the class. Most people will not run it stock because the 2wd stock will be faster, hence manufacturers will say "see its not a popular class", a self fulfilling prophesy. Very weird because it is not cost effective for manufacturers to have a chassis like this and block it from competitive racing. I agree, AWD and 2wd run a different line and it makes it a bit harder to run them together but its doable.

I really appreciate Grant adding AWD to the stock class I know he would add it to a mod class if it were allowed. But, there is not much that can be done, not until the manufacturers have a shift in thinking. (its confusing, and correct me if I am wrong because China has a big AWD community)

Still waiting for Ver. 2.1 or Ver. xx.xx when the shift in thinking takes place

Cherub1m
2011.07.12, 04:22 PM
Just wanted to add a video link recorded by Sai at Cruzin with RC's. The first two cars are mine and Sai both are AWD the rest are 2wd. Look at the lines... Look at the results...

Video link:

http://www.youtube.com/user/dealerxing#p/u/8/GvSXJvfd1wE

Result link:

http://www.imageextreme.com/cruizin/resultsauto/03-26-2011/R3_Race_11_AWD_Mod_A-Main.pdf

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.12, 04:38 PM
We have now the final rules for the race, thank you all for your patience.

Kyosho Summer Shoot Out Rules.
(Ver. 2.1) Updated on July11th
Kyosho Summer Shoot Out 2011 Saturday July 30th
Doors open 9am. Registration / Check-in begins at 9am Racing starts 11am

Race Format
Qualifying:
There will be FOUR qualifying runs for each class.
Each run will last 5 minutes.
For the first run, the starting grid will be staggered in a random order.
For the second to fourth run, racers will be re-shuffled each rounds into heats based results
The starting order for each run will be based on the number of laps run in the time allowed.
Top Qualifier (TQ) will be awarded to the racer with the highest lap count for a single heat.

Mains:
Single Mains (8 drivers per main) lasting 8 minutes, No bump up.
All mains results will be posted on kyoshoamerica.com.

CLASSES:

Kyosho EX (Formally called Kyosho Stock)
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, & MR-03 Mini-Z Chassis. Chassis can be any configuration including LM.

Chassis - No modification (shaving or drilling.)

Motor - Original kit motor only.

PCB - No Modification allowed except for updating to Kyosho 2.4GHz board, No Gyro Allowed

Bodies - Must be Kyosho Kit or Autoscale body, no white bodies allowed. Modification (shaving or drilling, adding wings etc) not allowed. (Exception hole may be drilled in rear deck lid of Ferrari F355 to allow for damper clearance.)

Wheels - Kyosho Plastic wheels only. Styles must match i.e. BBS fronts must be paired with the proper BBS rears, colors can mix and match. Wheels/tires must fit inside the body without rubbing or shaving required.

Tires - Kyosho Brand Rubber tire (No grooving, cutting or silicone based tires allowed)

Batteries - Cars must be powered by four AAA batteries. Alkaline, Ni-MH or Ni-Cd batteries may be used. No other type of battery may be used. For example: Lithium Polymer may not be used.

The ONLY option parts allowed are the following:
• Ball Bearings (any none ceramic)
• Kyosho Rear Shock Set (#MZ206)

*NOTE: Cars running within the EX Specification are also eligible to run in the GT Stock class as is. (Including Kyosho Kit Motor)


Kyosho Cup (formally GT Mod)
Open to Kyosho MR-015, MR-02, & MR-03 Mini-Z Chassis. Chassis can be any configuration including LM.

Chassis - No modification (shaving or drilling.)

Motor - Original kit motor only.

PCB - No Modification allowed except for updating to Kyosho 2.4GHz board, Gyro IS Allowed

Bodies – Any Kyosho brand body allowed slight sanding for clearance is allowed, Body must retain all windows and lights.

Wheels - Any Kyosho brand wheels maybe used.

Tires - Any Kyosho Brand Rubber tire (No grooving, cutting or silicone based tires allowed)

Batteries - Cars must be powered by four AAA batteries. Alkaline, Ni-MH or Ni-Cd batteries may be used. No other type of battery may be used. For example: Lithium Polymer may not be used.

ANY and ONLY Kyosho/R246 brand option parts are allowed!!! (exception aftermarket Ball bearings allowed).

*NOTE: Cars running within the Cup Specification are also eligible to run in the GT Stock class as is. (Including Kyosho Kit Motor)


GT Stock
Chassis - 90mm to 102mm Wheel Base, Kyosho Mini-Z MR01, MR015, MR02, MR03 and MA-010 only. Kyosho colored chassis may be used. Minimum weight 175 Grams.

MOTOR - P/N 80T motor or Kyosho Kit motor. The motors are to be run as is. Any modifying/tampering with the motor will result in disqualification. If any race official suspects motor tampering, the driver will be subject to disqualification.

PCB - Drivers MUST be use the Kyosho PCB AM, 2.4G and KO AD brand only. Any modification allowed. Gyro NOT allowed.

Body - Kyosho Mini-Z and TRP Scale body only, Le Mans body also allowed, all windshield and window must be installed. Bodies may be functionally modified with minimal effect external appearance. The following non-comprehensive list of body modifications are allowed:
• The rear bumper may be removed up to Maximum 20mm from the ground.
• Wheel wells may be cut forward or backward to accommodate different wheelbase chassis.
• Wheel wells may be cut or chamfered internally for tire clearance.
• Lower portions of the body may be cut for ground clearance in front, sides or rear.
• Body material may be shaved or thinned internally for weight reduction. Technical inspection officials reserve the right to disqualify any modified body deemed to be too fragile due to excessive material removal.
• Body panels may be reinforced or strengthened internally without affecting external appearance.
• Original windshield and windows must be installed, but can be modified by cutting unexposed internal areas.
• Original headlight covers must be installed, but headlight buckets may be removed or omitted. In the event that a headlight cover is lost, the hole may be covered with a decal.
• Taillights and taillight covers may be removed or omitted.
• Small body parts such as mirrors, canards, exhausts may be omitted or removed to prevent racing damage and debris on track.
• All rear wing comes with the body may be installed according to the no height limited. Custom wings allow to use on the body, according to the height limited 45mm from the ground.
• The above list is non-comprehensive. The purpose and spirit of the rules is to allow functional performance modifications to the body while preserving the scale appearance and realism. The technical inspector has final authority in the judgment of body modification legality.
• If you have modified your body and have questions regarding the legality of the modifications, please submit the body in question to technical inspection PRIOR to racing qualification or main event round. This is in order to prevent any inadvertent disqualifications. The technical inspector will judge the legality of body modifications and photograph the body in its legal state if necessary.
• If the body is further modified post-inspection, the modifications may or may not be legal. For the racer's protection, please re-submit the body in question to technical inspection IMMEDIATELY if significant modifications are made.
• If the body is damaged, the condition of the body may or may not be legal. For the racer's protection, please submit the body in question to technical inspection IMMEDIATELY if significant damage occurs. If the damaged body is judged illegal, it must be repaired or replaced for the next qualification or main event round. Qualification or main event results during which racing damage occurs on track will be allowed, as long as the body is not judged to be intentionally designed to break away to benefit performance.

Bearings - Any type of bearing by any manufacturer is allowed. For example: Ceramics are allowed.

Wheel Rims - All brand Plastic and Aluminum rims are allowed. Maximum front wheel width is 8.5mm. Maximum rear wheel width is 11mm. Maximum wheel diameter is 21mm. LM-size wheels and tires are NOT ALLOWED. All wheel rims must be original, any modification is not allowed.

Tires - Any Brand of Rubber Only. No Silicone tire may be used. No foam tires allowed. No tire insert use. No traction compounds allowed on tire or on race surface. Tire warmers are allowed. Tires may be cleaned with a 70% alcohol solution. If a driver uses tire cleaner that has been deemed illegal, the driver will be subject to any penalties that apply. Please address any questions concerning tire cleaners at the drivers meeting.

Batteries - Cars must be powered by four AAA batteries. Alkaline, Ni-MH or Ni-Cd batteries may be used. No other type of battery may be used. For example: Lithium Polymer may not be used.

Hop Up Parts - Drivers may use any brand of option part available on the market. All upgrades must conform to all other rules posted in this document. All upgrades must be designed for the chassis that the upgrade has been installed on. No upgrade will be allowed if the upgrade will interfere with the cars of other drivers.

The racing director, tech inspectors and race officials reserve the right to disqualify any part deemed improper based on fairness and possible interference.

yasuji
2011.07.12, 04:41 PM
Just wanted to add a video link recorded by Sai at Cruzin with RC's. The first two cars are mine and Sai both are AWD the rest are 2wd. Look at the lines... Look at the results...

Video link:

http://www.youtube.com/user/dealerxing#p/u/8/GvSXJvfd1wE

Result link:

http://www.imageextreme.com/cruizin/resultsauto/03-26-2011/R3_Race_11_AWD_Mod_A-Main.pdf

Philip,
please bear with and reread the rules....there is no mod class:eek:
so in saying that...the awd is included in gtstk.and is allowed to run either the pn80t motor or the stk kyosho motor:D

Cherub1m
2011.07.12, 06:23 PM
Philip,
please bear with and reread the rules....there is no mod class:eek:
so in saying that...the awd is included in gtstk.and is allowed to run either the pn80t motor or the stk kyosho motor:D

:D:D:D I know, I know no need to re-read, I got it the first time. I am just trying voice the need for Mod AWD class whether it be its own class or in same group has Mod 2wd. And you know, I am still hopefull, because we now have Ver. 2.1:D which mean, more version will come...:D

Have fun with the race guys. I am curious to see time differences with all these stock classes. Also, I hope this new dedication by Kyosho will make Miniz more popular in the US.

bermbuster
2011.07.12, 08:43 PM
Any of my metro nyc buddies want to come out and stay in my place hit me up.
im a few minutes from john Wayne airport and about the same to Kyosho

I also have my awd ready for this race. I have been using Kyosho rubber at Cruizin with
excellent results

arch2b
2011.07.13, 01:28 PM
i have to ask, if just to get ti out but are any of the limited chassis sets kyosho ex legal if kyosho upgrade parts are removed and replaced with stock parts? for example, could i take the limited red chassis and remove the ball bearings, lock nuts, strut bar and ball diff and replace with stock parts, except for the strut bar which simply comes off. the rest is simply red plastic vs. stnd color. its not like the sp chassis parts where the plastic is supposed to be better.

EMU
2011.07.13, 06:01 PM
Any of my metro nyc buddies want to come out and stay in my place hit me up.
im a few minutes from john Wayne airport and about the same to Kyosho

I also have my awd ready for this race. I have been using Kyosho rubber at Cruizin with
excellent results

George, youve been using rubber on that AWD? :eek: I need to try that, your car looks good.

I will look into travel, and see about making the trip. I would think fly in Friday night, out Sat night or Sun morning if I can do it. Thanks for the offer :) This is a race that I definitely want to attend... things have been really tight lately, so I havent been able to race as many events as I would want.

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.14, 03:01 PM
i have to ask, if just to get ti out but are any of the limited chassis sets kyosho ex legal if kyosho upgrade parts are removed and replaced with stock parts? for example, could i take the limited red chassis and remove the ball bearings, lock nuts, strut bar and ball diff and replace with stock parts, except for the strut bar which simply comes off. the rest is simply red plastic vs. stnd color. its not like the sp chassis parts where the plastic is supposed to be better.


Yes this would be legal. Any Kyosho chassis as long as it fit's within the rules of EX is allowed. EX class is primarily a class for those to race ReadySets but if you have a red chassis set and the only hop-ups are the ball bearings and the upper shock and everything is reverted to the equivalent of a ReadySet then you are good.

arch2b
2011.07.14, 04:58 PM
thanks, i didn't want to assume anything so i asked.

just pointing out that within the next month or two, the autoscale alone will comprise 25-30% of readyset cost. even in the cup class, the autoscale will be the most expensive hop up. this will really impact stock and cup classes :( say a part on a body in a qualifier making it illegal per race director rules, the cost of a new autoscale will be prohibitive in my opinion :( not heaping blame on you as your not setting the cost. just kind of a sucker punch to the gut feeling after the excitement of build up to stock and cup class racing.

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.15, 12:48 PM
the autoscale will be the most expensive hop up. this will really impact stock and cup classes :( say a part on a body in a qualifier making it illegal per race director rules, the cost of a new autoscale will be prohibitive in my opinion :

I am assuming you meant to say "say you break a part on a body in a qualifier"

I can only speak for our experience but historically the bodies run in a class of this nature tend to last a long time. Especially you apply a thin layer ShoeGoo® to the inside of the front bumper I have bodies that I have run for years that literally have the paint worn off them but are still complete. For our EX class if somebody has the rear view mirror missing ore a winglet broken off we are not going to disqualify them.

arch2b
2011.07.15, 01:04 PM
correct, meant to include 'break'.

LM bodies for example are very fragile at the front light bucket areas. it doesn't take much to crack these and eventually break. this is common for many autoscales actually. some are just more durable than others due to design and or thickness of the plastic. there are countless threads here from years ago when racing autoscales was much more common experience regarding which are most durable and which tend to break more often.

the upside to stock and cup class is, they are not going to be carrying as much speed.

ok, sorry for the side track conversation:o

Cherub1m
2011.07.18, 09:24 AM
Some guys are interested in making a box stock class at Ron's I just need to know some specific about the Kyosho rules. He may use the Kyosho format.

1) Just wondering will it be legal in Kysosho EX, Kysoho Cup, to change the setting on the PCB (ex. drive fequency,... etc)

2) Also the original box stock LM has a plastic damper will that be considered legal since the LM is heavier than the other cars

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32000&d=1311001576

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32001&d=1311001583

3) One more thing is it legal to use an MR-03 board on a MR-015 or MR-02? it would mean the 02 servo would remain and one would need to make space for the gyro connection that protrudes from the PCB.

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.18, 01:58 PM
1) Just wondering will it be legal in Kysosho EX, Kysoho Cup, to change the setting on the PCB (ex. drive fequency,... etc)

2) Also the original box stock LM has a plastic damper will that be considered legal since the LM is heavier than the other cars

3) One more thing is it legal to use an MR-03 board on a MR-015 or MR-02? it would mean the 02 servo would remain and one would need to make space for the gyro connection that protrudes from the PCB.

1) It is not legal to change any settings or components of the PCB unless you are of course replacing a damaged board for a new Kyosho version or replacing the board to make your car 2.4GHz

2) the LM damper will be legal to use on the LM chassis in EX and on any chassis where is can be mounted without modification in Cup class.

3) If you cannot mount the board without having to physically modify the chassis then you cannot swap boards.

The main purposes of both Kyosho classes is to limit all modifications to basic, simple, none evasive adjustments. If something requires skill with and or use of a drill, hobby knife etc. consider it against the regulations and sportsmanship of these two classes.

-KyoshoVP

Cherub1m
2011.07.18, 03:48 PM
1) It is not legal to change any settings or components of the PCB unless you are of course replacing a damaged board for a new Kyosho version or replacing the board to make your car 2.4GHz

2) the LM damper will be legal to use on the LM chassis in EX and on any chassis where is can be mounted without modification in Cup class.

3) If you cannot mount the board without having to physically modify the chassis then you cannot swap boards.

The main purposes of both Kyosho classes is to limit all modifications to basic, simple, none evasive adjustments. If something requires skill with and or use of a drill, hobby knife etc. consider it against the regulations and sportsmanship of these two classes.

-KyoshoVP

Ok thanks, so I guess that mean if you have to solder the 02 servo to the 03 PCB that is "skill with and or use of a drill, hobby knife etc. consider it against the regulations and sportsmanship of these two classes.":D

bermbuster
2011.07.18, 06:31 PM
Hey guys
what can we buy when we are at the track?
parts? autoscales? batteries?
thanks in advance
I know you werent open on Sunday but I made a dry run to make sure I can find the place.....:D Scoped out places to eat too....haha

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.20, 06:46 PM
Ok thanks, so I guess that mean if you have to solder the 02 servo to the 03 PCB that is "skill with and or use of a drill, hobby knife etc. consider it against the regulations and sportsmanship of these two classes.":D

You are correct.

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.20, 06:51 PM
Hey guys
what can we buy when we are at the track?
parts? autoscales? batteries?
thanks in advance
I know you werent open on Sunday but I made a dry run to make sure I can find the place.....:D Scoped out places to eat too....haha

We will have all of the above available at the track come race weekend. This weekend we will be open and we have begun working on increasing inventory in the shop to make sure everyone is covered. We are expecting a shipment between this and next week so if it's not in stock this Sunday it probably will be by race day Sat. Also come race weekend if we do not have it in stock in the R241 shop we will have access to the main warehouse and can make periodic trips to accommodate.

KyoshoAmerica
2011.07.22, 04:25 PM
FYI for everyone coming this weekend to practice we are anticipating there may be more drivers then normal and we recommend bringing a folding chair incase we run out of space so we can book end our pit tables and if need be run power outside for additional pitting.

ThankYou,

Kyosho VP

bermbuster
2011.07.22, 10:16 PM
I cant wait for Sunday.....:D