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ruf
2010.05.19, 03:16 AM
Started testing tonight with the Carbon Limited Edition F1. I ran it box stock at Kenon tonight to get an impression of any improvements over the bone stock original.

Initial reports are mixed. I'll get more in depth later, but here are a quick 20 questions.

1) Is it better than the bone stock car? Yes.

2) Is that because of the upgrade parts? No.

3) Does the car come tweaked like the clear chassis sometimes would? No.

4) Is the grey chassis stiffer? Yes.

5) Does it drive differently? Yes.

6) Is the grey bumper stronger than the clear one? Yes.

7) Does the grey bumper have good ground clearance without modifications? Yes.

8) Is it the bumper I would race with? No.

9) Do the plastic knuckles still stick with the stainless kingpins? Yes.

10) Is the plate damper system good? Yes.

11) Is it enough to plant the rear end? No.

12) Am I happy with the upgrades that came on the car? Yes.

13) Am I happy with the way the car drives out of the box? No.

14) Is the car competitive out of the box? No.

15) Am I disappointed? No.

16) Am I planning on modifying the car? Yes.

17) Am I planning on adding upgrade parts to the car? Yes.

18) Will they be expensive? No.

19) Is this car the best way toward a competitive F1? Yes.

20) Will Crotty beat me this year with a near-bone-stock car? Man, I hope not... :D

All in all, it was a frustrating but valuable test session. The car needs some lovin. I'm tempted to just throw my old setup on it and be happy, but I know that the competition has definitely caught up in the last year or so. That plus the transition to mod motors means it's time for a clean sheet approach.

herman
2010.05.19, 03:39 AM
kinda love the shakedown... broken down to a simple yes and no... thanks for the info... :D

MantisMMA
2010.05.19, 10:21 AM
i too like that format!! since we finally have a world class track to run on in htown (technically in porter but close enough) i can do some testing myself, do yo mind if i use your format?

z3zinho
2010.05.19, 10:27 AM
20) Will Crotty beat me this year with a near-bone-stock car? Man, I hope not... :D


I thought we had established the problem *cough* wasn't the car *cough*... HEHEHEHEHE :D

Now I'm going to stop taunting Joe, as I need him to rebuild my car with the 2010 ass kicking spec!!! :D

EMU
2010.05.19, 11:54 AM
Excellent review Joe... great format. I agree with every point :)

ruf
2010.05.20, 04:49 AM
Thanks for the kind words guys!

herman - let us know how your F1 setup goes!

mantis - of course! I don't own 20 questions... :)

alberto - bite me, pole rider... (for those of you that don't know, a couple years ago, I announced that PNWC AWD stock TQ alberto was riding the pole position in the mains. I'll let you take it from there...)

emu - quit agreeing with me. I gotta get ahead of you somehow... :p

wcrotty
2010.05.20, 08:23 AM
20) Will Crotty beat me this year with a near-bone-stock car? Man, I hope not... :D

All in all, it was a frustrating but valuable test session. The car needs some lovin. I'm tempted to just throw my old setup on it and be happy, but I know that the competition has definitely caught up in the last year or so. That plus the transition to mod motors means it's time for a clean sheet approach.
Joe,

I don't think i can get away with this anymore. Bone stock just will not cut in in mod. But i'm going to try and not change it.

I will have to change my front bumper though. :( I'll just put the stock one on and try not to hit the walls :)

MantisMMA
2010.05.20, 08:51 AM
the rules have changed now you can still use your custom wing as long as it fits within the given measurements

EMU
2010.05.20, 12:55 PM
emu - quit agreeing with me. I gotta get ahead of you somehow... :p
Get ahead of me, you are a World Champion... We have raced once on the same track in F1, and you showed me what it takes. In order to beat Joe Chen, you must have a good start. Otherwise, you turn on the cruise control... I hope I can give you a good battle this year, which we were not able to do last year at the KO race.

Being a mod class this year, we have to re-develop the cars. Things that we needed to do for stock, may make the cars too loose for modified power. I think that we will see a lot of mild modified motors being used (Speedy 07), to keep the focus on corner speed rather than acceleration. I still havent decided what motor I will use for the PNWC. I currently use the Atomic Stock BB, which I have adjusted to since it is the handout motor for the Atomic series this year.

Getting the rear suspension to handle the power from the apex out of the corners will be the biggest challenge. The F1 tends to hook a little when power is applied. My latest SP2 F1 setup, was specifically developed for the small track at the Carolina Cup. On a large track, it works, but not as well as my previous SP1 setup with the Stock BB motor. The PN layout has a lot of high speed sections, so having good cornering at high speed is very important. The highest speed corner at the Carolina Cup is basically the slowest speed corner in the PN layout. So some work will have to go into increasing corner speed, while getting the traction that I need out of the corner.

Sorry to go a little off topic... :rolleyes:

ruf
2010.05.21, 06:45 PM
Bill - Please use a Mantis bumper so I never have to see that black kydex snowplow again... :D

EMU - I learned the cruise control trick from Crotty! You and Layman both had a tenth or two on me in terms of outright laptime. In the past, I have been lucky enough to have the best car on the grid. I think that will be much harder to do this year. :)

ruf
2011.04.14, 05:21 AM
I love my F1 again. Lots of learnings. Lots of stupidity.

If you've wondered why this thread went cold, my F1 was utter garbage at the worlds this year. Went down a lot of rabbit holes, but I've finally got it all sorted. Keep your eyes peeled for a follow-up. Beauty of it is that none of it is product-centric. Just proper setup and preparation in a few key areas. Also planning on a parts-only ground-up build video.

Traveler
2011.04.14, 06:46 AM
:cool: Can't wait!

EMU
2011.04.14, 09:26 AM
I am interested in hearing more ;)

ruf
2011.04.15, 04:56 AM
So here's what I've learned in order of importance. Will flesh out this post as we go. Pictorial coming on our blog.

1) Packaging

2) Tires, tires, tires

3) Steering consistency

4) Glitching

5) Sticking

bermbuster
2011.04.15, 07:50 AM
So here's what I've learned in order of importance. Will flesh out this post as we go. Pictorial coming on our blog.

1) Packaging

2) Tires, tires, tires

3) Steering consistency

4) Glitching

5) Sticking

Hey Joe...not to rush you Majs is having a BIG race on April 30th and there is an open F1 class.....
You gotta strike when the iron is hot.....:cool:

lfisminiz
2011.04.15, 04:02 PM
Hey Joe...not to rush you Majs is having a BIG race on April 30th and there is an open F1 class.....
You gotta strike when the iron is hot.....:cool:

Agreed!!!;):D

Felix2010
2011.04.15, 04:36 PM
Joe I could use some of your expertise on F1 setup, I'm building an F1 from the ground-up... :)

Looking forward to your findings:D

ruf
2011.04.16, 03:02 AM
Dialed it in some more with Grant, and a few of the guys at Kenon tried it out tonight. Grins all around.

Grant's background being motorcycle racing, he stated "it's a packaging problem..." I replied, "I just said the same thing on the forum..." ;)

ruf
2011.04.16, 04:35 AM
Some of you guys may have already figured a lot of this out. I had to relearn some stuff and also uncover some new weaknesses in my F1 setup now that the class has moved to mod motors. In any case, I hope this helps. First up, packaging.

"I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead."
- Mark Twain

1) Packaging. What does packaging have to do with racing? Everything, especially in F1. Packaging engineering is one of the most important and difficult parts in designing an F1 car and this translates to Mini-Z. It's the proverbial conundrum of fitting 10lbs of stuff into a 5lb bag. Whereas the bulk of a full-scale F1 car is limited by aerodynamics, Mini-Z F1 is constrained by scale appearance and rightly so. The rear suspension of an F1 is a challenge, trying to cram as much suspension underneath that gorgeous scale body without anything hitting. Some bodies offer more room than others, and the latest models have enough room for a top spring and disk damper setup with some internal clearancing.

In that quest for an effective low profile rear suspension, I selected the 3Racing disk damper (same as upcoming R246). The problem that I couldn't identify until recently was that the lower disk damper translated to a lower damper arm on the motor mount. Both the Atomic motor mount and the 3Racing motor mount allow you to run the damper arm low enough to hit the rear battery when the suspension compresses under acceleration. The top spring damper mount on the PN motor mount is not adjustable and doesn't hit, but it can't readily accept a disk damper.

There are a few ways to check if you are running your damper arm too low. The easiest way to check is to inspect the area from underneath the battery box while working the suspension. If the damper arm looks like it's intruding into the battery box area, you're too low. Another way to check is to install the batteries, but leave the battery door off. If the rear battery pops out a little when compressing the suspension, then you're too low. With the battery door on, the damper post/top spring will abruptly move up instead of forward when compressing the suspension if the damper arm hits the rear battery, i.e. - you're too low. Finally, if you're noticing weird chunks missing from the center of the battery insulation after a big wreck, you're too low.

The net effect of this is that you will have no rear suspension compliance under acceleration, which is why I couldn't put any power down at the worlds. The deceptive part is that the suspension looks like it's working, aside from the strange upward movement replacing the forward movement when the damper arm hits the battery. This effectively turns the bottom disk damper spring from a disk tensioner to a rear suspension spring, if the suspension can even get past the initial shock of hitting the battery. I fixed the issue by installing 1mm spacers underneath the disk damper plate, raising the whole assembly and the damper arm once the disks/post were centered. 1mm fixed the rear end... I'll pause to let that sink in. A side benefit is that motor wire clearance is improved. Drawback is that you have to clearance the underside of the body for the higher screw heads, top disk and rear top spring damper end.

Speaking of top spring dampers, I currently use the PN side damper for this application because it's a good length, has screw preload, and lots of options for spring rates. I like the PN white spring. You have to aggressively file the sides of the rear damper end and clearance the inside of the body cowl to give enough roll travel, but I think it's worth it. Additionally, don't short yourself on rear ride height with the top spring preload or the axle spacers trying to dump the car. RCP is bumpy, and dragging hard parts will lead to inconsistent handling. I also like to sand down the rear corners of the battery door to points to give more squat clearance during cornering.

So now that we can accelerate, let's look at cornering and roll stiffness. I'm going to go against the grain, and say that the rear end doesn't need to be MR floppy for mod. The F1 is a heavier chassis, and I think that the roll stiffness of a side plate setup is more than compliant enough to handle the power with a couple of tricks. Old school tuning left various side plate screws loose. This WILL NOT WORK with grey chassis, as for some reason the screws do not grip the grey plastic as well as the clear plastic and will back out unless tight. I personally have moved away from this, since the side plates are the only things that "locate" the motor mount and thus the rear axle and wheels in relation to rest of the chassis. Leaving them loose has led to inconsistent handling as the car struggles to stay "square".

I've got quite a few options in my pit box for dialing in the rear roll stiffness. Side plates include Kyosho carbon, Kyosho carbon thinned down to 60% width, and Mantis carbon in order of decreasing stiffness. In addition, I use the full plastic spacers/blocks that come with the Kyosho carbon side plates for full stiffness, but I have beveled versions of both front and rear blocks that I can use in different combinations to soften up the side plates by increasing the effective plate length (moving up the pivot point with the beveled front block), or relieving the rear tension on the plate with the beveled rear block (so it bends in more of a "C" shape than an "S" shape). If you don't believe these have an effect, you will if you install a beveled block on one side and a full block on the other… Side springs can also be employed, and I've cut the "tubes" out of an old plastic motor mount so that I can screw them onto the Atomic motor mount. The 3Racing and PN motor mounts have the tubes machined in. Using the side springs will also let you use the Kyosho tube dampers.

Other things to look out for with side plates include the dreaded tweak. While the grey chassis has addressed the molded tweak issues of the clear chassis, the Kyosho carbon side plates also have a slight tweak that you need to address. The Kyosho side plates are made identically left and right which means that any bend in the raw material will be in the opposite direction when mounted on opposite sides of the car. Most of the Kyosho carbon side plates I've seen have a slight upward bend when mounted on the left which means a slight downward bend on the right. This means a stiffer right side which leads to the infamous left tweak. A thin shim between the side plate and the motor mount will usually address this without having oddball steering bias in the radio that can have inconsistent side effects. The Kyosho side plates I thinned down don't seem to exhibit this tweak which means that they are just too soft or I wasn't perfectly even with my sanding. The Mantis side plates are made individually left and right, so they aren't tweaked, though the holes can elongate. With an aluminum motor mount, it's also cheap insurance to use a nut in addition to loctite to capture the rear side plate screw.

lfisminiz
2011.04.17, 10:46 PM
Joe, thanks for the interesting reading.
Right now i have the 3RAC disk damp on. Im not sure where you are saying the damper is hitting the batt. area. Of course it may depend on how its mounted. I have the PN pod with a damp post on it. I put spring cups under the 3 RAC damp to raise it. I guess thats the difference which means mine probably sits a bit to high.

ruf
2011.04.18, 02:56 AM
Damper doesn't hit, the area on the motor mount where the damper post hits. If you remove the batteries and look from the underside, you'll see the hole were that damper arm mount enters the battery box area. If you are using the PN mount, it doesn't have adjustability there, so there should be no way to adjust it too low. Just make sure whatever mods you made to attach a damper post don't intrude into the the battery box.

Which spring cups are you using? I found that 1mm between the carbon plate and the alloy mounting block was enough to do it.

ruf
2011.04.18, 03:10 AM
2) Tires, tires, tires. An old adage in racing of all scales is that tires are 90% of your setup. At a big race at an unfamiliar track, we talk about "hitting the tire setup". The challenge is to predict the best tire combo which changes throughout the race weekend. The "best" tire combo is one that provides the most overall grip while offering a balance that suits the motor and your driving style. This balance can be additionally tuned with dual rate, but you don't want to stray too far as steering angle has other repercussions.

You know the track will change, so there's no use in freaking out about overall grip. At the same time you can't afford to compromise practice or qualifying with an unbalanced car. What a lot of newer drivers don't realize is that low traction usually makes a car push, not oversteer (especially on entry). The exception is a motor with a lot of power or an abrupt powerband that can overwhelm the rear tires on exit. I start with as much rear grip as possible and a pretty aggressive front tire. The front tires gradually shift to harder compounds and less steering as the traction and front bite comes up over the weekend. Experiment with different brands, compounds, carpet tires and truing to develop a spectrum of front grip you can use accurately dial in the balance.

At the worlds, I completely screwed over my teammate Matt in the main with a bad call on rear tires. Due to the aforementioned packaging issues, I had been struggling with grip the whole week and took a last chance gamble with trued PN8's over Kyosho 20 rears. The grip was improved on a few trial laps, so I recommended it to the rest of my team. What I hadn't accounted for was the chemical grip fade of the PN8's. Less than halfway through the main, the rear grip disappeared and Matt and I were left with a couple really ill-handling F1's.

Luckily, Eugene and Jacob stuck with consistency of the K20's. Later on, I tried the same trued PN8's back-to-back against worn K20's, and it was like night and day. There was no physical indication of wear on the PN8's, but the grip was gone. The truing probably didn't help. The lesson learned is to understand your tires, how they wear, and when they will let go. The PN8's might just be the hot ticket when new, and I need to study how many runs I can get from them without relying on physical wear indicators.

Additionally, you MUST use R246 tape with these tires. There is just too much squirm in the center that leads to unpredictability. We also superglue the tire with mod motors for even more consistent traction.

ruf
2011.04.18, 04:35 AM
3) Steering consistency. Few things are more annoying than a wandering center. The Mini-Z F1 chassis has a great servo saver, but it could use some work. If you notice any sticking, give it a good polish and lube on the mating surfaces. The big e-clip at the end can also hang up a little on the inside of the top cover. I like to sand down the edges and the overall diameter to ensure that nothing binds. Finally, if nothing seems to be working, try a new one. Servo savers can wear out or just be bad.

If you've raced F1 for a while, you've broken a plastic tie rod. This isn't the servo saver's fault, as the wheel is actually being ripped past the travel stop. The servo saver does it's job and saves the gears, but the tie rod or knuckle often can't take the load. You've got to use aluminum tie rod and knuckles. I like the 3Racing tie rods since they have a smooth finish. The old Kyosho aluminum knuckles were the best, but they've been discontinued and replaced by the R246 versions with the brake disks. These are essentially the same as the 3Racing aluminum knuckles, so you might want to give those a try. Camber plays a role here and less tends to give you more turn in.

Now if you've ever tried to install an aluminum tie rod, chances are you've broken those little tabs on the chassis. Don't bother replacing them with an aluminum holder, none of them work particularly well. I've spent time filing and sanding, and they all stick. While I've run with the tabs broken, I like stabilizing the tie rod a little more. The trick is to just go ahead and trim the front of the tabs, so you can slip the aluminum tie rod in, but they still support the tie rod from underneath. This keeps the tie rod operating on an even plane, so that the knuckle pins have a good contact surface. Aluminum on aluminum can bind once dirty, so a little lube here keeps the steering nice and smooth.

Another random tip I learned was to "screw" the front springs into the knuckles. The knuckles on the F1 have very tight tolerances for the springs, and I have chased setup for a while with one spring not seated all the way in the knuckle, essentially preloading one corner. Speaking of preload, make sure you've got enough preload on the springs to prevent the front bumper or wing from dragging. I do a lot of work filing the bumper mounting points to bring it up to the wing, but even the wing level can drag at times as the weight transfers forward on entry. If you are getting an initial push, chances are you are dragging something in the front.

EMU
2011.04.18, 05:34 AM
While I agree with most of your points... I just wanted to state that the World Championship winning car (that Jacob drove) had a stock plastic tie rod :rolleyes: Being the developer of the car, I felt using the Mantis v1 bumper that the tie rod would not be subject to the high impact forces that would break the tie rod. It also produces less binding with the Mantis camber/caster towers that were installed in the car. When using an alloy tie rod, a little shaving of the tie rod may be necessary (depending on manufacturer) to reduce binding, since the angle of the knuckle pins are slightly different, and some tie rods have very narrow eyelets for the pins. While I would still recommend an alloy tie rod, it is not entirely necessary if you protect the front wheels well with an appropriate bumper. I feel that sometimes the need for performance exceeds the need for durability if you take alternate methods to protect the tie rod (bumper).

I feel that the 3Racing/R246 tie rod support bracket is better than the ATM, but as you stated, not as good as the stock chassis. With the plastic tie rod, it is much better, and doesnt bind, but with an alloy tie rod (which is a little larger than the plastic) it will bind unless you modify... Perhaps a delrin version would be better... I have a few chassis' that have broken tabs and I feel that using these support brackets help reduce wandering over a chassis that has no tabs, but as you recommended, removing the tips of the tabs so the tie rod does not tilt, works better than the brackets... I just hate having to replace a chassis because the tabs are broken :(

As far as tires, I only use Kyosho 20d rear tires. Perhaps on some tracks where the PN rubber has a grip advantage over the Kyosho rubber, they may be an option... but for the most part I feel that the Kyosho tire has less thermal fade, and is consistent throughout the run. For front tires, in order of low to high grip: PN20, K40, PN15, K30... I prefer the tires worn or trued to slicks (take in mind that a trued tire needs a few runs to lose a little of the grip gained by the truing process). Be careful when trueing the front tires, as you dont want to make the front tire too small, as you will lose ground clearance, and possibly drag the bumper/chassis on the track as you transfer weight to the front on turn in. Using servo tape, or the Kyosho F1 tire tape will help increase wheel diameter if you true down to a slick and find the car bottoming out on the track.

ruf
2011.04.18, 06:07 PM
Good points. I'm going to revisit using the 3Racing tie rod support with the front tabs trimmed off for bottom support only.

EMU
2011.04.18, 06:43 PM
Good points. I'm going to revisit using the 3Racing tie rod support with the front tabs trimmed off for bottom support only.

Let me know how it goes... I have to check to see what I had on the car that I drove at the worlds... I think I used the 3Racing support with 3Racing tie rods, but did not have any caster/camber towers since I wanted less exit steering...

lfisminiz
2011.04.18, 09:33 PM
Damper doesn't hit, the area on the motor mount where the damper post hits. If you remove the batteries and look from the underside, you'll see the hole were that damper arm mount enters the battery box area. If you are using the PN mount, it doesn't have adjustability there, so there should be no way to adjust it too low. Just make sure whatever mods you made to attach a damper post don't intrude into the the battery box.

Which spring cups are you using? I found that 1mm between the carbon plate and the alloy mounting block was enough to do it.

Joe,
Heres 2 pics to show what i have. The spring cups that hold the damper up are 4.0. I guess i should try to lower whole unit some.
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af104/lfisminiz/P4180625.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af104/lfisminiz/P4180621.jpg

ruf
2011.04.18, 11:17 PM
Yah that's kind of way up there. Damping will be magnified and the rear suspension should be slowed down and more stuck. I don't know how you're fitting it all under the body, but I don't see any problems with it. I would chop off the PN post mount and lower the damper post, but that's just me.

How are those PN diff parts holding up? Is the axle durable?

EMU
2011.04.19, 12:21 AM
Larry, try using the damper post from the 94mm LCG mount, or flipping this damper post upside down (flange upwards to lower the discs). If you go with the shorter post, you may want to use softer springs as well to compensate for the increased preload.

Have you tried putting the spacers for the DPS between the alloy and CF plate rather than between the chassis and the alloy? This is the method that I used when I set up the DPS with PN mount. I mention this because I see some stress marks on the chassis around the screw holes...

mdowney
2011.04.19, 01:50 AM
This is all great info, Joe. I'd like to build an F1 myself but I'm having a he'll of a time finding parts anywhere. Where do you get the parts you've mentioned above? I don't see them on your site. I did find MantisWorks though...

ruf
2011.04.19, 02:42 AM
Meh. No go on the 3Racing tie rod support on the 3Racing aluminum tie rod. Also noticed a little bump area on the rear of the tie rod close to the center that could use some filing flat. Removes a little hitch close to lock.

ruf
2011.04.19, 02:44 AM
Mike - Sorry about that! Send Cristian an email at contact@ and he'll be able to order anything you need. Later this week, I'll compose a list of parts I would use for a ground up build.

BTW, after seeing Larry's "tower", and my craptastic dremel job, I'm seriously considering making a low profile alloy tower with multiple shock mounting holes. I think we could sell 10 of them. Hahaha!

EMU
2011.04.19, 03:56 AM
I have 4 cars that I would like to fit with that low profile tower ;)

Traveler
2011.04.19, 05:24 AM
Joe,
Heres 2 pics to show what i have. The spring cups that hold the damper up are 4.0. I guess i should try to lower whole unit some.
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af104/lfisminiz/P4180625.jpg

http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af104/lfisminiz/P4180621.jpg

Holly cow Larry! :eek: Have you ever driven that thing? I've never seen anything so clean, even right out of the box! :confused:

EMU good catch on the chassis stress point!

lfisminiz
2011.04.19, 05:31 AM
Yah that's kind of way up there. Damping will be magnified and the rear suspension should be slowed down and more stuck. I don't know how you're fitting it all under the body, but I don't see any problems with it. I would chop off the PN post mount and lower the damper post, but that's just me.

How are those PN diff parts holding up? Is the axle durable?

Will do! I was thinking of doing that anyway.;) Im using the titanium axle with the PN diff parts.

lfisminiz
2011.04.19, 05:33 AM
Larry, try using the damper post from the 94mm LCG mount, or flipping this damper post upside down (flange upwards to lower the discs). If you go with the shorter post, you may want to use softer springs as well to compensate for the increased preload.

Have you tried putting the spacers for the DPS between the alloy and CF plate rather than between the chassis and the alloy? This is the method that I used when I set up the DPS with PN mount. I mention this because I see some stress marks on the chassis around the screw holes...

Im with you on this. Ill be changing it.:)

lfisminiz
2011.04.19, 05:34 AM
Holly cow Larry! :eek: Have you ever driven that thing? I've never seen anything so clean, even right out of the box! :confused:

EMU good catch on the chassis stress point!

Yes its been run....:D Just not many F-1 oppertunities.

bermbuster
2011.04.19, 07:19 AM
Awesome info....
Figures Im really busy with work and I haveno time to play and try these tips...At least I can aquire the parts I need.

Joe make the tower and Ill take 2....:D

Traveler
2011.04.19, 08:37 AM
How are those PN diff parts holding up? Is the axle durable?

More info on this would be nice. It didn't look like a QteQ diff half...

Pierro
2011.04.21, 12:26 PM
Hi!

Interesting review Ruf. Thank a lot for these info.

I currently use the SP2 chassis. I do believe you started from such a kit?
Is there a reason why you prefer the 3 racing damper to the kyosho that comes with the chassis?

ruf
2011.04.23, 05:39 AM
Hi Pierro!

I did start with an SP2 chassis. The Kyosho damper did not seem to control the rear end as much as I would have liked. I like the 3Racing or Atomic disk dampers a lot. I am planning on trying the Kyosho damper again now that I've got the chassis sorted out, and I'll report back here.