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View Full Version : New PN Racing MR02 98-102mm Gimbaled Motor Mount


skyler
2010.05.21, 08:00 PM
If anyone has been waiting for the MR02 motor mount with the lower pivot like I have, they are on RC Kenon right now. They are called Gimbaled Motor Mount. Peace out.

arch2b
2010.05.21, 08:19 PM
too bad it's strictly mr-02.

Felix2010
2010.05.28, 01:22 AM
Throw an 03 board into your PN Double A-Arm equipped 02 and you've got one killer PN racing machine, 02 or not:)

I'm in!:D

herman
2010.05.28, 11:28 AM
been to rckenon site... page not found...
any pics of the new motormount?

doug01n
2010.06.02, 09:48 AM
Will it be released for 03 soon?

PNracing
2010.06.02, 12:53 PM
Yes, we will release the MR03 T-Mount and T-Joint soon!

doug01n
2010.06.02, 02:01 PM
Good to know!!!

Will the new T-mount and T-Joint be compatible with the 98/102mm actual version, that is currently used with the traditional T-bar?

herman
2010.06.02, 11:44 PM
just saw the pics on the pn f******k site... pretty cool... :D

hmm... just wondering... would it be a pain adjusting the springs?

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs569.snc3/31043_400010702706_231472532706_4029905_8007234_n. jpg
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs529.ash1/31043_400010727706_231472532706_4029908_5474357_n. jpg

Felix2010
2010.06.07, 11:27 PM
Spring adjustment isn't too bad at all.:D The TDS' side damper springs and top shock springs at least, I don't run the disk dampers because I find them to be redundant with the TDS.
I'm just glad there isn't any caster-adjustment for the rear. Getting those 0.2mm washers in place when adjusting caster on PN front suspensions, I have nightmares...:D

herman
2010.06.08, 02:46 AM
that's nice to hear... thanks for the update...

MikeL
2010.06.08, 11:25 AM
How do you feel the rear end feels compared to the standard setup?

Old Crow
2010.06.10, 11:45 AM
Just the concept of the pivot system and side shocks seems much, much better then anything we've seen yet for the 2WD rear end. Always felt that the H-plates and disk dampers/shocks were sloppy and imprecise, but it was what we were given. This really feels like we're heading in the right direction. Once again, PN leading the way. :)

chad508
2010.06.10, 02:12 PM
how do you get any forward to back action with a solid mount?

MikeL
2010.06.10, 03:08 PM
how do you get any forward to back action with a solid mount?

It's hinged, the button head on the bottom is a long pin.

chad508
2010.06.10, 03:12 PM
so the piece that mounts to the motor mount is hinged? i see a screw on the side of the mount now. thanks

Treadmule
2010.06.10, 03:22 PM
how do you get any forward to back action with a solid mount?

See in this photo that there are 2 axes of rotation: one down the centerline of the chassis from front to back, the other across the back of the "firewall", just in front of the motor. That's the axis that provides the fore-aft motion you're talking about.

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/images/attach/jpg.gif

I'm near the end of the adjustment range on my setup and I'm not using the damper plates that are provided in the kit on Phillips advice. I may try putting those parts back in to see how it works. This mount system is so totally adjustable that it's possible to arrive at a perfect setup - if you know what you're doing. I'm just a punter...:D

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/images/attach/jpg.gif

Felix2010
2010.06.11, 04:13 AM
How do you feel the rear end feels compared to the standard setup?

Sorry for the late response. IMHO this mount is excellent.:D
Quality=A+ ;
Design=A+ ;
Performance=A
Even Pricepoint-wise I give it an A.:D It is kinda weird when you first install the PN Gimbaled pod+TDS system before connecting the top shock - The whole rear-end just flops around.:D With no T-plate there's no "bottom-chassis" rear suspension and even when you do attach the top shock the feel of the rear-end is more "open-feeling". The pod moves where it wants to with more ease, the motion is instant - Which you can see when the top shock isn't hitched-up to the rear pod. The PN Tri-Damper System does a very good job of controlling the compression and the unloading of the rear suspension.

For top shocks I am liking the PN "dual" top shock more the more I use it. First I tried the Kyosho yellow oil shock which I've always liked. With the Gimbaled rear-end it is difficult for me to get the right spring tension on the Kyosho oil shock. I tried the K yellow spring(hard) and had to use 4 of the K plastic C-clips to preload the spring enough in order to achieve an acceptable suspension tension. But with the K shock so heavily preloaded it didn't perform like it normally would and it had a weird progressiveness to it. I switched back to the PN dual shock and everything felt smoother.

I think people might compare this Gimbaled mount+TDS to the Atomic SAS for the MA010. It takes a lot of work to get the rear end dialed. There's more slop with the Gimbaled mount, just one of the downsides to having 2 shaft-driven pivot points - There's going to be some play in there or else the system will bind. I agree with what Old Crow mentioned about how H-plates and disk dampers can be imprecise. The Gimbaled mount is capable of being very precise, just more work is involved with setup & maintenance. But even maintenance isn't too bad, esp. if you don't run the disk damper with the TDS (Which is my preference):).

***Recommended***:D

EMU
2010.08.02, 02:13 AM
Is there any possibility that we will see a delrin block for the pivot? Im afraid that the alloy part will wear and start to get sloppy, delrin should hold up longer.

cocowawa
2010.08.06, 04:37 AM
getting rid of the t bars and the disk dampers is the best thing thats happening to miniz now,we are heading to 12 scale direction now with the tds and now these pivots,thx a lot pn its the way to go

Cherub1m
2010.08.06, 07:59 AM
Is there any possibility that we will see a delrin block for the pivot? Im afraid that the alloy part will wear and start to get sloppy, delrin should hold up longer.

How about adding very small bearings to the pivot points? Total would be 4 small bearings or bushings, or just something that is replaceable.

arch2b
2010.08.06, 08:26 AM
when will a mounting plate be made for the mr-03?;)

cocowawa
2010.08.06, 04:29 PM
what i dont get is why would they do it for the mro2 first while the current is the03?are they promoting the 02 again,or it has somthing to do with chad nelson cars are all 02s and hes kicking arse with them:)

PNracing
2010.08.06, 04:38 PM
This is long project before, so we only arrnage production on MR02, the MR03 not yet release when we production, so the MR03 mount will be coming soon, we also change the design of the MR03 Gimbaled T Mount

cocowawa
2010.08.06, 04:56 PM
ah ok it make sense now,thx for the reply

EMU
2010.08.06, 05:32 PM
Also, by the looks of things, it is MUCH easier to mount it to the MR02 chassis than the MR03 since the MR02 has the springs side by side instead of in front of eachother, so the hinge pin can fit between them.

Also, there are probably more MR02's out there than MR03...

Arahawak
2010.08.06, 09:11 PM
This is long project before, so we only arrnage production on MR02, the MR03 not yet release when we production, so the MR03 mount will be coming soon, we also change the design of the MR03 Gimbaled T Mount

It be nice on the 03. can't wait. :D

yasuji
2010.08.07, 02:34 AM
what i dont get is why would they do it for the mro2 first while the current is the03?are they promoting the 02 again,or it has somthing to do with chad nelson cars are all 02s and hes kicking arse with them:)

funny thing is that chad is not using this mount....lol chad is jus that good!...
we started prototyping the gimbaled mount just after the proto AAarm front came out!:D
me personally ... i love this setup! ..:D

EMU
2010.08.07, 12:43 PM
I just finished assembly on an old MR015 chassis without electronics. Just to see how everything goes together, and move to an MR02 when I get a chance. The rear end is very smooth. I am going to try it out today and move my 94mm ATM MR02 setup onto an MR03 to make room for this. Grant, what springs do you recommend for the Mosler? Where you using the top shock as well?

I will be using a standard MR02 front end for now... just to get the feel for the rear end first, and may try the A-Arm after I get the car working well.

This does look impressive. And is surprisingly low clearance despite how it looks in the pictures.

yasuji
2010.08.07, 09:48 PM
Grant, what springs do you recommend for the Mosler? Where you using the top shock as well?

I will be using a standard MR02 front end for now... just to get the feel for the rear end first, and may try the A-Arm after I get the car working well.

This does look impressive. And is surprisingly low clearance despite how it looks in the pictures.

for the mosler as well as pancar @ MHS i used yellow main spring and silver rebound spring on the top shock and preloaded blue springs on the side with both top and bottom disc damper plates and blue dds springs
note; after seing all the diifferent set ups i decided to try a few things on my set up last night @ kenon...i learned more about this set up yesterday...i didnt think it could get any better than what i had....but wow....it will get better!;)

Treadmule
2010.08.07, 10:42 PM
...i learned more about this set up yesterday...

Can you talk more about this? Like, what did you learn that others can also benefit from? Or is it a weapon in your secret arsenal now? :)

wcrotty
2010.08.09, 04:28 PM
I love the Gimbaled rear end. I ran it for the first time a week before the NJ race and it was just amazing. I enjoyed driving modified again. For me it drives more like a 12th scale then any mini-z. I just need to work on my car a bit more to increase the rip. (grant style!!!)

I was running 5000 kyosho dampening on all the springs. Sides and front. With 30000 dampening on the Gimbaled pins. At the end of the weekend i was running the yellow springs on the side and front shocks. The reason i ran the yellow springs was for cut mid corner. If i wanted less cut i would go with a softer spring. I don't run any preload on the springs. That is different then grant. He preloaded the side springs.

Now that i'm back at my track that has so much less grip. Stock is an entire second slower. I will go to a softer side spring.

I would love to see a 94mm Gimbaled motor mount.

Felix2010
2010.08.09, 06:14 PM
Thanks for your input on your Gimbaled-rear pod setup. I am going to try your spring preferences.:)

lfisminiz
2010.08.09, 07:30 PM
I love the Gimbaled rear end. I ran it for the first time a week before the NJ race and it was just amazing. I enjoyed driving modified again. For me it drives more like a 12th scale then any mini-z. I just need to work on my car a bit more to increase the rip. (grant style!!!)

I was running 5000 kyosho dampening on all the springs. Sides and front. With 30000 dampening on the Gimbaled pins. At the end of the weekend i was running the yellow springs on the side and front shocks. The reason i ran the yellow springs was for cut mid corner. If i wanted less cut i would go with a softer spring. I don't run any preload on the springs. That is different then grant. He preloaded the side springs.

Now that i'm back at my track that has so much less grip. Stock is an entire second slower. I will go to a softer side spring.

I would love to see a 94mm Gimbaled motor mount.

Bill, thanks for input. Im working on mine now. Good to see you again as always. See you at the Beach...:)

tony-q
2010.08.15, 02:03 PM
Is there any possibility that we will see a delrin block for the pivot? Im afraid that the alloy part will wear and start to get sloppy, delrin should hold up longer.

thats something i was aking my self

EMU
2010.08.15, 02:37 PM
I had a chance to test the gimbaled mount setup Friday night. I was impressed, but I think it needs a little more fine tuning before I will run it for racing. I need to try different spring rates for top and side shocks. For testing, I was running it dry, no grease. So I can feel what the car is doing without masking it with the grease. I used DDS with green springs top and bottom and the stock side/top springs as a base setup. I first tried the old McLaren, but switched to the Murcielago which felt better at speed.

I would like a shorter wheelbase, since I find myself more comfortable with a shorter car right now (94/96mm).

wcrotty
2010.08.16, 09:10 AM
Emu,

I wouldn't recommend anyone run a car without dampening. The car will just bounce, It's like the stock t plate with the stock shock. UGH.

Keep working at it. Try the lub i recommended.

Felix2010
2010.08.25, 12:56 AM
Can I ask a question regarding Tri-Damper setup using the Gimbaled pod? :

To increase on-power turning rear grip, what should I do: Go softer side springs or harder side springs? Which will give me more bite and keep me from spinning-out on-power both early and late in the corners?

Thanks guys:D

EMU
2010.08.25, 03:01 AM
What body/tires are you using?

I would start by using a softer rear springs, and/or going to a stiffer front spring. If its in every part of the corner, you may need to go to a higher grip rear or less grip front tire. Suspension adjustments can make a difference, but trying to make them tame an unbalanced tire setup is alot of work and tracktime/setup. If you know the tire setup works for the track/chassis/body you are using, then you can fine tune with the spring rates.

I still have the stock springs on mine, but I just got my spring sets in, and I am going to try a harder spring next track day. I think the stock springs are too soft for just about any track conditions, but I normally prefer harder t-plates.

I feel that a harder t-plate/side springs will reduce body roll entering the corner, which delays the turn in a little, so it can reduce some early off throttle corner entry, but helps with exit steering on throttle. I like to be able to step the car out a little when I clip the apex and get on the throttle hard. If its too soft, the car will push too much.

Top spring rate changes how the throttle input effects rotation in the corner. Preload and spring rate make a big difference. If the car pushes through most of the corner, and rotates hard on the exit, a little more top spring will give more rotation earlier in the corner. I use top springs on most of my cars. If you are having trouble getting rear grip, you can try a softer top spring first. This will take less percentage of mass off the front wheels when on throttle. There usually is little effect on the corner entrance with the top shock, so it is primarily for on throttle rotation. Too much top shock, the car will rotate too early as you apply throttle. Too little top shock, the car wont rotate early enough as you apply throttle.

In general, the smaller/slower the track, the softer springs you would want to use. It will give more body roll and allow the car to lean harder in the corners. Larger tracks you would want to use harder springs to get less roll. The harder springs will give less steering in the corners, but you can carry more speed. Some body roll is good, but too much will make the car sluggish and scrub too much speed. My car felt great on a small track with the stock top/side springs, but on the large track I went to a t-plate car because it wasnt working and I didnt have my spring set yet...

I recommend you try different combinations of springs and see what feels best for the grip level you have and tires you are using. Are your tires glued to the wheels? Some tires need to be glued down in order to work properly (Kyosho 20d radials are a great example).

I typically use Kyosho 30d radials (worn to slicks) or ATM 40d slick fronts on most of my cars. They run consistently for the entire run. I usually use Kyosho 20d radials in the rear, unless the track calls for a different rear tire.

Felix2010
2010.08.25, 03:39 AM
What body/tires are you using?

I run lot's O' bodies:D - Mainly tho, I'd say 2007 350z Super-GT, Enzo, 2008 Nissan GTR Super GT, Aston Martin, and '05 NSX and '07 NSX Super GTs.

I feel that a harder t-plate/side springs will reduce body roll entering the corner, which delays the turn in a little, so it can reduce some early off throttle corner entry, but helps with exit steering on throttle. I like to be able to step the car out a little when I clip the apex and get on the throttle hard. If its too soft, the car will push too much.

This is basically what I really want to know. But I want more push coming out of the corners, and not have the car "Step-out" as you say.:) I like my cars to push rather than over-steer.

Top spring rate changes how the throttle input effects rotation in the corner. Preload and spring rate make a big difference. If the car pushes through most of the corner, and rotates hard on the exit, a little more top spring will give more rotation earlier in the corner. I use top springs on most of my cars. If you are having trouble getting rear grip, you can try a softer top spring first. This will take less percentage of mass off the front wheels when on throttle. There usually is little effect on the corner entrance with the top shock, so it is primarily for on throttle rotation. Too much top shock, the car will rotate too early as you apply throttle. Too little top shock, the car wont rotate early enough as you apply throttle.

Finding the "Sweet Spot" Top/Center shock sprig is the key for me and it's a pain! For this Gimbaled mount at least... I wish PN made an Oil shock that worked better with the Gimbaled pod, I've tried the Kyosho but even with the Yellow spring it still felt kinda funky; Anything less than Yellow spring feels too soft. Plus it's a pain to get the proper droop for the rear pod setting up the Kyosho OIl Shock IMO.:o

In general, the smaller/slower the track, the softer springs you would want to use. It will give more body roll and allow the car to lean harder in the corners. Larger tracks you would want to use harder springs to get less roll. The harder springs will give less steering in the corners, but you can carry more speed. Some body roll is good, but too much will make the car sluggish and scrub too much speed. My car felt great on a small track with the stock top/side springs, but on the large track I went to a t-plate car because it wasnt working and I didnt have my spring set yet...

I recommend you try different combinations of springs and see what feels best for the grip level you have and tires you are using. Are your tires glued to the wheels? Some tires need to be glued down in order to work properly (Kyosho 20d radials are a great example).

Tires aren't a problem:)

Thanks for all your help and input. Keep it coming!:D

EMU
2010.08.25, 03:50 AM
The body that I felt most comfortable with my limited time was the murcielago. I didnt try the Mosler, but I have a feeling that it would be just as good if not better.

My cars dont really spin out, they controllably rotate as I increase the throttle. Wihch gives them good drive out of the corner. Some people drive the car into the corner hard, I drive it out hard and am less aggressive entering the corner. If the car pushes as I add throttle, I have to wait longer to get on throttle. Even with the stock springs, I felt that the gimbaled mount had good drive out of the corner.

If you want more push out of the corner, then use a softer top spring.

yasuji
2010.08.25, 11:06 AM
in my testing on the side shock i found that a "preloaded" spring gave me a more linear feel and a "zero" preloaded spring gave me a progressive feel
on my side shocks i prefer the blue pn springs "preloaded"
and on my top shock i am using the yellow main spring with the silver rebound spring
on the top shock i also slightly preload the main spring for a more linear feel
for my settings if i go to a softer side spring"orange" the car will push ...if i go to a stiffer side spring "red" i will get some over steer
recently i have tried some other settings and have found that the dds provides too much damping....so as per chad n,davey g, and bill c...i removed the lower dds plate and in turn got more transition stability and a but more on power steering...thank you pn team drivers!;)

EMU
2010.08.25, 11:56 AM
Grant, thanks for your description. I am going to try out the springs that you recommend, and see how they feel. First with DDS, and 2nd without DDS. Do you use any grease on the shocks?

Felix2010
2010.08.25, 07:13 PM
Grant - Do you still use a top disk damper, and with what disk spring?

The thing I'm trying to get used to is the fact that there is no "bottom" chassis suspension (No T-plate). The top shock is doing all the fore/aft work. I thought that a Yellow spring would be too hard... Well, after testing today from stock-SIlver to Green to Yellow Main springs, it looks like the Yellow Main Top spring is what I'ma go with. Also, with the side shocks, if I try to run softer springs running no preload which I thought in theory should give me more understeer, I've found that I get too much roll if and I think that is what is causing me to lose grip and spin-out when on-power throughout corners. Just a guess...

The coolest thing about the TDS is the cut you get in the corners. Very quick reaction.

I am using 15k Kyosho grease on the Main spring to help control the hard reaction of the Yellow spring, and 5k Kyosho grease of the side springs.

I may try Grant's setup with Blue side springs w/preload. Might be what I'm looking for. I really don't want to use disk dampers at all since it seems it would be redundant damping, but if Grant uses a top disk damper + disk damper spring with no bottom disk damper, I might try it out.:) Thanks Grant for your help!

I know I've had a hard time getting the K Oil shock to work with the Gimbaled Pod, but anybody out there use the Kyosho Oil Shock or the new Atomic Oil Shock with this pod? The main problem I have with the Kyosho shock is there's no droop adjustment. Does the Atomic Oil Shock have droop adjust? It might be worth a try.

yasuji
2010.08.25, 10:00 PM
i use kyosho kin pin oil w. fluorine on my main,side shocks and gimbal piviot system
i am currently using the top dds plate with the blue damper springwith kyosho 200 wt silicone oil:D

lfisminiz
2010.08.25, 10:18 PM
Grant, thanks for the ideas.;):)

mleemor60
2010.08.26, 12:22 PM
It seems that the LCG V-4 mount is being phased out for a new V-5 mount that will be ready in a few week's. The new mount will be non-gimballed and span from 98mm out to 104mm.

This information was passed to me when I contacted Kenon to see when more of the V-4 mounts would be available. I was also asked to post the information here on MZR. Currently that is all the information that has been related to me from Kenon. I was not told of or offered any photo's of the new product line but it was added that a gimballed version of the V-5 would be forthcoming.

Felix2010
2010.08.27, 09:00 AM
Thanks for the V5 info. I'm looking forward to seeing this thing. Part of the problem I'm having right now I think has to do with the slop on the Gimbaled mount's side-to-side shaft. (The Mr02 kingpin looking shaft). There's a lil' too much movement on there than I would like. I am going to get some K 30,000 grease And see if that helps control slop at all. 15k grease masks the slop well but still the "wiggle" on the rear pod is not good. There is not even enough space for me to fit a .2mm shim in the bottom Gimbal assembly either to tighten things up... Maybe, maybe one 0.1mm whim might fit...

mleemor60
2010.08.27, 09:08 AM
I have no knowledge of the gimballed mount as I have not acquired one yet. I don't have the ability to get the last 10-15% out of the existing pieces so I haven't made the transition yet. That isn't to say I won't but for now I think the design show's promise. The execution however seems to be a bit of a compromise.

EMU
2010.08.27, 09:21 AM
Mike, I will be bringing my Gimbaled car down to Carolina, so you can eye it and get an idea for the suspension.

Sinister_Y
2010.08.27, 09:50 AM
re: Felix's post-

Great- more dead stock at my shop :(

Anyway, I guess now it's time to frankenstein some dead stock items together and race it.

Thinking of the following: 2.4 MR-15, EMU front tower bar, gimbaled mount and tri damper system

Felix2010
2010.08.27, 10:20 PM
re: Felix's post-

Great- more dead stock at my shop :(

Anyway, I guess now it's time to frankenstein some dead stock items together and race it.

Thinking of the following: 2.4 MR-15, EMU front tower bar, gimbaled mount and tri damper system

The PN Gimbaled Mount IS good. But there's some things that I wish were better - As there always is.:D The thing is, you really need to know how to setup your car or you'll be frustrated as hell with the Gimbaled Mount. The value is there though - You get the V4 Gimbaled mount + Tri Damper for what I think is a great price. I DO believe that the Gimbaled mount will surpass the T-plate pods in the future performance-wise, and who knows, PN might even come out with a simple fix to eliminate the slop from the Gimbaled V4 mount. Fingers crossed...:)

2.4 MR15 + EMU Front Tower + Gimbaled pod + Tri Damper = Super nice ride!!! Sounds good to me!!:)

pfcparts
2010.08.28, 01:10 PM
So there will be two versions of a particular mount
depending on what you want to use?

Can a mount be developed in which you could use
either by just swapping out parts?


parts

Sinister_Y
2010.08.28, 06:15 PM
Started the build last night at the sop
. Love that everything was included. Showed my customers and theyloved the design. Everything so is tight without being binding. Also will run li-fe cells in this bad boy. Will post pics when built is complete.

Felix2010
2010.08.29, 12:07 AM
^ @Sinister_Y --- The V4 Gimbaled PN pod+Tri Damper IS good, not doubt about it. You should be able to sell some Gimbal pod+ TDS kits to those guys who like Modified. :D

I like to help others find out the truth behind products. I get aggravated of hearing crazy, over-the-top reviews like how a spur gear gave someone 5kph more speed with the same gear ratio and non-scientific hype that sells a bunch of products early... Only to have those "Extraordinary"products become paperweights because people don;t get the results and/or something new comes out... Rather I try my best to give real-world info: The Good + The Bad (And sometimes the Ugly... Not often anything Ugly though:)).

About my opinions that are not 100% positive, it is meant only as constructive criticism; As people have said, without critique nothing would improve. With the V4 Gimbal mount though YMMV.... Could be the sweetest pod you've tried yet or maybe something not your type. But this pod will not make your car 3 seconds faster/lap just by installing it.;-)

I hope you enjoy your new built ride! Just remember to use heavy diff grease like Kyosho 15k or better yet Kyo 30k diff grease on those Gimbal pins to help keep the "wobble outta the system. ;-)

Sinister_Y
2010.09.06, 11:47 AM
Well, got to complete the build on the dead stock Frankenstein MR015.

This setup was hot! It beat my tricked out MR03 car! but only by like 1/100 of second on best lap time. The setup was good, however I don't use brake and like off throttle steering (remnant of my 1/10 scale days).

Will post pics later.

Setup:

Gimbaled Motor Mount setup:
-30,000 weight Kyosho diff grease on shocks shafts with PN center shock blue springs. No disc damper plate installed
-white spring on center shock (rear). Rebound cranked tight
-5000 weight kyosho diff grease on center shock shaft

Front:

-PN std. MR02 white front springs- with Kyosho 5000 weight diff grease on king pins. No lowering. Longest spring cup (red colour)
-EMU MR015 to MR02 conversion top/lower bar set (awesome!)
-Kyosho optional plastic toe-bar #2 (which I think is around 1.5 deg toe-in)
-PN bearings all around
- PN adjustable rims (black alloy)
-PN 1.5 deg (camber) alloy knuckles

Tires:
-PN Parada 6 deg rears
- PN 10 deg slick fronts

-PN Titanium screws through entire car
-Kyosho Xspeed 2.4 Ghz motor (drilled can for PN motor mount)
-PN 64 pitch ceramic ultralight ball diff kit
-Murcielago body

Car weighs in a lofty 190g but works good. Also tried the R246 Li-Fe cells in this bad boy. It works good, however had tendency to flip at end of straight going into the sweeper- really had to be smooth on steering inputs. The car handled excellent with the heavier cells (AAA) and lower power.

EMU
2010.09.06, 01:21 PM
Sean, I really want to see pics of that car. 1.5d camber is perfect for the 015 with tower bar set. One thing that I would suggest, is a 19 or 18mm front wheel.

The Murcielago works great on the 015, works good in general, but especially on the 015. Try a short McLaren if you have one too...

I love how the 015 beat out the chassis that replaced it :rolleyes:

Sinister_Y
2010.09.07, 09:06 AM
EMU- thanks for the comments. Will try to take pics this coming Sat and post.

Others- quick question to all has anyone tried the gimbaled setup with a LeMans car? i.e. was thinking of turning another deadstock item (MR02 2.4 Ghz Mazda 787B) into a frankenstein car. Wanted to make sure that the shocks will fit under the body.

Feedback?

EMU
2010.09.07, 11:08 AM
Maybe you should make a Gimbaled 015 LM spec class :) Should have good racing, and get your dead stock moving :rolleyes:

I havent tried to see if it will fit over the shocks, but I will check when I get a chance. I believe that it should... I have the 787, C9, and P962 that I will check for you.

The more I race it, the more I like LM.

Sinister_Y
2010.09.07, 11:27 AM
EMU- cool.

I think I'll throw in the PN MR-02 Double A-arm suspension kit with the gimbaled rear setup- should be 'da bomb.

Re: Lemans- I think I remember it being posted that the LM diff is longer that the standard MR02/03/15 diff. However, the MR02/03/15 diff is the one to use with the gimbaled (V4 motor mount) setup.

Question: Can you still use the stock LM rims with the MR02/03/15 diff? Will it fit properly (i.e. offsets stay the same?)

EMU
2010.09.07, 11:32 AM
The LM diff requires less offset wheels compared to the standard diff. So you would want to use 2 or 3mm offset wheels on the standard diff compared to 0mm on the LM.

Sinister_Y
2010.09.26, 10:47 PM
As promised and requested, pls. find attached a couple of pics showing my dead-stock frankenstein MR15 using a silver gimbaled mount.

yasuji
2010.09.26, 11:12 PM
im not sure as this mount is dead stock....as imo it is the BEST and ONLY mount i have tested and still use to date!! this gimbaled motor mount is the icing on the cake!
i feel that it gives the 98mm chassis some of the the agility it lacks to the 94mm chassis:cool:

Felix2010
2010.09.26, 11:59 PM
Awesome car Sinister_Y:D Looks Awesome. I like the LiFe-cell optional connectors too:D

I agree with Grant about how good the Gimbaled mount is. However, I do wish there was less slop coming from the Gimbal-assembly. Even though my Gimbaled mount hardware is very tight and flush (The Main bottom "Kingpin" for side-to-side movement and the Screw/Post for fore-aft movement), I still have some tweak and when I am pushing hard thru turns on-power I can actually see the rear chassis "wiggle" a bit. The performance is still excellent though despite this slight amount of play in the Gimbal joints. It's funny too because the two Gimbal "pins" are as tight as can be - There isn't even enough room to fit a 0.1mm spacer in there to "tighten" things up. It's just the nature of the beast I guess.

Don't forget to use heavy diff grease like 15k-30k on the Gimbal "pins", this will help with the little bit of Gimbal-pin play. I was recently running what SInister said - " I think I'll throw in the PN MR-02 Double A-arm suspension kit with the gimbaled rear setup- should be 'da bomb." It is sweet. I am just trying my PN Tri-Damper with a T-plate suspension right now, but I think I'ma be going back to the Full-PN, Dbl- A-Arm Front/Gimbaled+Tri Shock Rear MR-02 soon:D:cool:

BTW- I love the MR-015 RED chassis parts!

machgo5go
2010.11.08, 12:01 AM
I agree with Grant about how good the Gimbaled mount is. However, I do wish there was less slop coming from the Gimbal-assembly. Even though my Gimbaled mount hardware is very tight and flush (The Main bottom "Kingpin" for side-to-side movement and the Screw/Post for fore-aft movement), I still have some tweak and when I am pushing hard thru turns on-power I can actually see the rear chassis "wiggle" a bit. The performance is still excellent though despite this slight amount of play in the Gimbal joints. It's funny too because the two Gimbal "pins" are as tight as can be - There isn't even enough room to fit a 0.1mm spacer in there to "tighten" things up. It's just the nature of the beast I guess.

"I think I'll throw in the PN MR-02 Double A-arm suspension kit with the gimbaled rear setup- should be 'da bomb." It is sweet. I am just trying my PN Tri-Damper with a T-plate suspension right now, but I think I'ma be going back to the Full-PN, Dbl- A-Arm Front/Gimbaled+Tri Shock Rear MR-02 soon:D:cool:

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh123/machgo5go/MR02NSXGT003Large.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh123/machgo5go/MR02NSXGT004Large.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh123/machgo5go/MR02NSXGT007Large.jpg
This combo is da bomb! I never thought I can get the rear to stop bouncing out of a corner from hard acceleration with a 32T motor with a conventional DDS. I felt that this Gimbaled made the rear so planted from its rotation.

Felix2010
2010.11.28, 07:31 PM
I am a PN fanboy so don't take this the wrong way, all of my PN friends....:) :

Is anyone else a little concerned about the total slop when usimng the Gimbaled V4 Pod 98-102mm for the MR02/MR03 pod/rear-end? First I noticed it was a nice tight fit between the "T-Bar" axis and the pod itself. But when you are NOT using a Disk Damper with a Tri-Damper System (The way I prefer to run it, no Disk Damper just 3 separate oil/grease shocks) - When you don't use disk dampers in combination with the TDS the pod has left-to-right slop almost to the point that after a few weeks recently the the chassis will "mini-Jackknife" through corners...lol

There is no room to shim the Gimbled axle on the T-bar mount. It is a good finish and quality job. But the design of PN's TDS "T-plate" connector has you install it so that you will never achieve 'slop-minimization perfection (At least I don't now how to do it).

Then add-on that for the MR02/03 Gimbaled mount the rear diff axle rests in two bearings and that the 2 bearings sit in molded bearing spacers (#1 & #2)allowing 4 diferrent axle heights possible. But every 1/10 millimeter in slop adds up and I am just not happy running my Gimbaled rear pod anymore. Due to the total amount of slop coming from use of the Gimbaled 98-102 pod, The rear axle can articulate like almost 3-5 degrees left-right/diagonally - Just due to the slop! Now I think running half a DPS or a Full DPS might lessen the slop or damp it more to limit it's feel, but I want to only run Tri-Shocks for a Tri-Damper: One Main Spring and the two Side Springs:) .


I posted that I love the Gimbaled pod because I do believe it can out-perform a DPS equipped chassis. But Philip Ng, Davey, Grant, CHad N, and all the PN Tech Staff, can I ask - Is there anyway that can be done to get the slop on the Gimbaled pod down - limit the slop by A lot? Compared to my T-plate equipped 98mm PN V4 equipped chassis with TDS (No DDS used), the rear diff at the wheels barely articulates at all, there is not ANY slop whatsoever.... That's on the T-plate pods.

On the other hand for the PN Gimbal 98 mount there's a lot of degrees of articulation(slop) when I grab the rear wheels at each end of the diff and move gently side to side and up/down. This slop I fear is critical. I would really like some opinions on this please! THank You guys!:D

yasuji
2010.11.29, 02:15 AM
ok this is what used to concern me in its proto stages...back then i had a good set up but as the T block wore due to usage the car would get a little squirly
so i did things ssuch as... ca glue in the hole to shrink the holes and reaming them back to proper size
on the aluminum block it is easy to SHRINK and stretch the holes and the block....or u can file one end of the block to be able to shim it i have don all of this in the past!
FF>> to TODAY...as i have found it is much better to allow it to wear as it will happen over and over again to a point!
then dial in you set up!
and then get a couple of these: http://www.kenonhobby.com/PN-Racing-Mini-Z-Gimbaled-Mount-T-Joint-Silver_p_42712.html
chad nelson had the same complaint then i set up a thoroughly used gimbal set for him and he said he loved it
we have been looking in to alternatives for this but have not found anything better as of yet.... we will tho....
setting wise i use the dds with the tds no matter what... i feel it gives a more consistent feel to the car... and as i said before... KYOSHO KINPIN OIL WITH FLOURINE ON ALL PIVOTS AND SHOCKS!....:D
as far as GIMBAL vs TPLATE... i will NEVER use a tplate again.....VIVA LA GIMBAL!!!:D

Felix2010
2010.12.03, 03:13 AM
Thank you for the tips Grant:) . I'ma try eliminating slop with shims and "shaving" the T-vlock down if I have to, then shim it tight...

The DDS - Doesn't anyone else feel that running the TDS: Top SHock with 2 Side Shocks, PLUS the complete DDS (Bottom spring+delrin disk/Top spring + delrin disk) over-complicates things and is redundant as well? You have 4-point/4-way redundant damping. I always thought it was best to let one thing do it's job right rather than have two parts have to work together to get the results you want. Cause then when things go off... You need to check twice as many damping points, wouldn't you?

I have Modded a Kyosho Yellow Oil Shock for use as the PN TDS' Top shock; I run 98mm with a soft Kyosho T-plate right now plus a PN V4 98mm-102mm pod. No DDS installed, only 3 spring damping system. I usually use RUBY LUBE for the side shocks and Kyosho 200wt oil in the shock but have the rebound at 50-65% and use a soft spring instead of hard to soak up more track bumps (I gotta bumpy track at the moment...:o).

I Think using the DDS actually lessens the effectiveness of the TDS system over a TDS setup w/3 springs only. The DDS plates don't always center perfect; The Side shocks and Top shock do a great job all by themselves of handling all the rear end's bumps and suspension demands. It would seem the best and only way right now is to drive the TDS -equipped chassis until rear-end slop is plainly visible, then replace/shave-down the Gimbal T-block and re-shim for tight fitment until this process needs to be done again.

Thanks again for your help Grant. I really do like the Gimbaled Mount a lot, maybe I just need to spend more time maintaining the rear-end play/slop values with the pod and Gimbal shafts...

yasuji
2010.12.03, 08:58 AM
Thank you for the tips Grant:) . I'ma try eliminating slop with shims and "shaving" the T-vlock down if I have to, then shim it tight...

The DDS - Doesn't anyone else feel that running the TDS: Top SHock with 2 Side Shocks, PLUS the complete DDS (Bottom spring+delrin disk/Top spring + delrin disk) over-complicates things and is redundant as well? You have 4-point/4-way redundant damping. I always thought it was best to let one thing do it's job right rather than have two parts have to work together to get the results you want. Cause then when things go off... You need to check twice as many damping points, wouldn't you?

I have Modded a Kyosho Yellow Oil Shock for use as the PN TDS' Top shock; I run 98mm with a soft Kyosho T-plate right now plus a PN V4 98mm-102mm pod. No DDS installed, only 3 spring damping system. I usually use RUBY LUBE for the side shocks and Kyosho 200wt oil in the shock but have the rebound at 50-65% and use a soft spring instead of hard to soak up more track bumps (I gotta bumpy track at the moment...:o).

I Think using the DDS actually lessens the effectiveness of the TDS system over a TDS setup w/3 springs only. The DDS plates don't always center perfect; The Side shocks and Top shock do a great job all by themselves of handling all the rear end's bumps and suspension demands. It would seem the best and only way right now is to drive the TDS -equipped chassis until rear-end slop is plainly visible, then replace/shave-down the Gimbal T-block and re-shim for tight fitment until this process needs to be done again.

Thanks again for your help Grant. I really do like the Gimbaled Mount a lot, maybe I just need to spend more time maintaining the rear-end play/slop values with the pod and Gimbal shafts...

i use the pn shocks all the way around... and it is not necessary to run both dds plates... i currently run only the top disc and 200 weight kyosho oil
the bigst problem with the kyosho top shock is it has no top out spring.... with the gimbal this is most important..... there neede to be some for and aft movement just as if it was mounted to a t plate....

Felix2010
2010.12.03, 10:35 PM
i use the pn shocks all the way around... and it is not necessary to run both dds plates... i currently run only the top disc and 200 weight kyosho oil
the bigst problem with the kyosho top shock is it has no top out spring.... with the gimbal this is most important..... there neede to be some for and aft movement just as if it was mounted to a t plate....

I might be trying the PN top shock again as well as top DDS disk with 200wt K oil.:) Thanks Grant, as always:) I appreciate the tips, please keep them rolling in:D

Felix2010
2010.12.03, 11:55 PM
ok this is what used to concern me in its proto stages...back then i had a good set up but as the T block wore due to usage the car would get a little squirly
so i did things ssuch as... ca glue in the hole to shrink the holes and reaming them back to proper size...

I hate messing with CA glue, I just was about to try this and I got CA everywhere. I'm not precise with CA enough to use thistechnique you mentioned (Davey G mentioned this to me as well, but I'm scared of CA binding stuff up).

on the aluminum block it is easy to SHRINK and stretch the holes and the block....or u can file one end of the block to be able to shim it i have don all of this in the past!

The largest amount of free-play I found is with the front-to-back Screw-in Gimbal Pin, not with the center-chassis side-to-side MR02 Kingpin-type Gimbal pin (like I first thought). I could probably file-down 0.1mm from the inside of the T-block and squeeze a 0.2 shim in there then tighten things up...
But then I read how you wrote this, Grant:

FF>> to TODAY...as i have found it is much better to allow it to wear as it will happen over and over again to a point!
then dial in you set up!
and then get a couple of these: http://www.kenonhobby.com/PN-Racing-Mini-Z-Gimbaled-Mount-T-Joint-Silver_p_42712.html

Do you mean, I should dial the setup and just drive the car until the Gimbal assembly is worn and has some slop to it, then replace the T-block with a new one? I was thinking about this too, buying a spare(or 2) T-Blocks.


chad nelson had the same complaint then i set up a thoroughly used gimbal set for him and he said he loved it
we have been looking in to alternatives for this but have not found anything better as of yet.... we will tho....
setting wise i use the dds with the tds no matter what... i feel it gives a more consistent feel to the car... and as i said before... KYOSHO KINPIN OIL WITH FLOURINE ON ALL PIVOTS AND SHOCKS!....:D
as far as GIMBAL vs TPLATE... i will NEVER use a tplate again.....VIVA LA GIMBAL!!!:D

Just to be sure - Do you mean that the Gimbal system's slop is just unavoidable and even with the Gimbal rear pod assembly having tweak&slop side-to-side, that you STILL would drive the Gimbal setup WITH SLOP than go back to running a T-plate+pod that has ZERO SLOP?

BTW - Also, did the chassis you set up for Chad have any Gimbal tweak/slop to it? Or was the Gimbal system freshened-up new and tight and all perfect like a T-plate setup?

I'm just not sure what to do, run the Gimbal pod and hope that the slop in the pod doesn't make the car inconsistent.... Or, just stick to your "old" setup Grant, the one you used at RCX for GT-MOD with the Mclaren F1 Long-Tail body (Using PN V4 pod, Fiberglass T-plate, and PN TDS)?

RussF
2011.02.15, 10:59 AM
I just got mine installed and have a few comments.

1. It was very tight at the up/down pivot point. I had to sand the "T" shaped part slightly on both sides to keep it from binding.
2. It was really sloppy side to side. Once everything was installed I noticed that the whole rear end would move like if you had a t-plate system and the screws mounting it were loose. What I did to try and fix it was to place a shim between the "T" shaped peice and the king pin chassis mount part. It was too tight of course so I sanded it and test fit until I could get the e clip on and still have a smooth non-binding rotation.
3. My parts list said it should have come with 4 plastic nuts for the side shock ends. It did not come with any plastic nuts. There were 2 steel nuts though, still not enough to get the job done.
4. Even the lowest setting on the #2 bearing holders didnt get it as low as I thought it should.

I havent track tested it yet to see how it works, but it sure looks cool!

I was hoping to hear some more about set up guys are using on the pod. Like for starters I put on the red side springs and the yellow top spring. I preloaded the sides about 2 threads, and the top about 4-5 I think. I used the green springs on the damper top and bottom and have not applied any lube yet.

I plan on testing it out soon as I can.

yasuji
2011.02.15, 11:18 AM
i run the yellow top spring with 3 threads showing and the AAarm white rebound spring this keeps the motor mod almost parallel to the ground
as for the axle inserts i run the #1 in the down position
fro the side shocks i use the blue springs preloaded... my base setting is to load the motor pod to the left and set the rt spring to ZERO PRELOAD then load the motor pod to the rt and set the left spring to ZERO PRELOAD
And as far as the dds... i run only the top disk with the grn spring

blt456
2011.08.21, 03:58 AM
I'm building a new modified car and just got this gimbaled mount today for the 03. Everything is nice except the gimbal screw. When I put the screw in, I threaded it in until it stopped, then slightly tightened it some more. That resulted in the screw head popping off of the actual screw....luckily the screw had some weird hex design so I was able to unscrew it with an exacto blade.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r198/blt45/IMG_0222.jpg

I'm just curious if anyone else has had this issue. I guess I need to buy more of these screws, but at 6 dollars a piece, that's a lot. The screw I got wasn't even shiny like MR2299N, so I'm hoping the replacement screw is stronger.

Felix2010
2011.08.21, 09:09 AM
I'm building a new modified car and just got this gimbaled mount today for the 03. Everything is nice except the gimbal screw. When I put the screw in, I threaded it in until it stopped, then slightly tightened it some more. That resulted in the screw head popping off of the actual screw....luckily the screw had some weird hex design so I was able to unscrew it with an exacto blade.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r198/blt45/IMG_0222.jpg

I'm just curious if anyone else has had this issue. I guess I need to buy more of these screws, but at 6 dollars a piece, that's a lot. The screw I got wasn't even shiny like MR2299N, so I'm hoping the replacement screw is stronger.

Yup, same thing happened to me… I got in a day’s-worth of practice racing first at least, but the head snapped right off the pin with me being careful even, because I THOUGHT this might happen… I guess I jinxed myself...

blt456
2011.08.25, 08:17 PM
Well, I ordered a replacement gimbal screw. When I got it, I put ca glue under the screw head so the glue would attach to it and the pin itself, letting the glue dry just under the first thread. When I put the screw through the motor mount and screwed it in until snug, the head didn't rip off so I guess that's one way to fix the issue.

As for the actual gimbal mount, I'll try it this weekend. :)

Felix2010
2011.09.02, 10:57 PM
^Thank you for the update, I’ll put a little bit of CA glue on the pin like you mentioned.:)

Now that I take the extra second to be careful to only use as little pressure as possible on the Gimbal screw when tightening it into the mount, I haven’t had any problems. For anyone who gets the PN Gimbal Mount I’d just recommend being easy with the tension when tightening the threaded side-screw. Just something to keep an eye out for. If I was just more careful/gentle I would not think the pin’s head would’ve popped off.

Overall > Big fan of the Gimbal Mount right chere! :D

blt456
2011.09.03, 01:43 AM
No problem, I have disassembled the gimbal swivel mount a few times today and the screw hasn't broken yet. This shows me that this fix might work and solve the gimbal screw issue.

On another note, I think I have an idea on how to get rid of the gimbal slop for the main swivel. It just came to light to me tonight after many failed attempts (15k kyosho grease on shaft, next plan was to put an 02 knuckle insert in the t-block). I'll work on my car tomorrow at the track I go to and try my idea. If it works out good, I'll post a comparison before and after and how it works on the track.

Felix2010
2011.09.03, 02:56 AM
Appreciate the update again blt456. Also, please do post any tuning ideas you might find that help lessen the slop of the Gimbal system. I’ve heard many tips from Grant that have helped already; But of course more tips for the Gimbal pod are always welcome. :D Thanks!

lfisminiz
2011.09.03, 03:42 PM
No problem, I have disassembled the gimbal swivel mount a few times today and the screw hasn't broken yet. This shows me that this fix might work and solve the gimbal screw issue.

On another note, I think I have an idea on how to get rid of the gimbal slop for the main swivel. It just came to light to me tonight after many failed attempts (15k kyosho grease on shaft, next plan was to put an 02 knuckle insert in the t-block). I'll work on my car tomorrow at the track I go to and try my idea. If it works out good, I'll post a comparison before and after and how it works on the track.

Sounds good, Luke....let us know.

blt456
2011.09.04, 02:02 AM
I got around to testing the mount today. I drilled out the t-block with a hand drill and put teflon tape around the shaft. In my hands, it felt like there was no slop, but when put back on my car, the slop returned.

I tried to drive my car as best as I could. It would wander at the end of the straight. The mod I did doesn't work that well but I am open minded and would like to try other methods.

yasuji
2011.09.04, 03:03 AM
i will start to post pics of the different mods and stages of modis that i have done.... the key is to preload the side springs....i have made a modded on today with an mr03 knuckle insert and boring out one end of the block... i will take pics later next week
it is by far the fastest set up i have used to date...!:D

LED
2011.10.12, 04:07 PM
I'm wondering if there are still guys using the gimabled mount?
I installed it today and I was realy horrified with the amount of slop in it. I first thought it was hitting something because it makes a little click each time I rock it side to side.
The feeling of it makes me think I'm waisting my time installing this thing and should simply use a T-plate mount.
Has anyone made some improvements on getting rid of the slop?

Second question. Are there suppose to be shims underneath the T mount on the chassis? The mount hits the chassis realy fast when you turn it. So I wonder if it is suppose to be higher.

Also on a side note, I looked at every store I know and they are all out of stock. Are they taking out of sales maybe?

Felix2010
2011.10.18, 10:34 PM
I'm wondering if there are still guys using the gimabled mount?
I still use it. ;P Seriously though, the PN Gimbaled 02/03 Rear pod+TDS seems to still be alive and well going back about a month now… I know some people Love Gimbaled, some don’t; I like it a lot. Lot’s of potential and hopefully there will be future revisions and follow-up releases to the original. Fingers crossed :)

I installed it today and I was realy horrified with the amount of slop in it. I first thought it was hitting something because it makes a little click each time I rock it side to side.
The feeling of it makes me think I'm waisting my time installing this thing and should simply use a T-plate mount.
Has anyone made some improvements on getting rid of the slop?

Almost-Zero-friction free float of the motor pod is worth the slop for just about everyone, even the slop I was worried about (like you) at first seemed bad; Then the slop was handleable; There’s plenty of tips from Grant on this forum about removing slop… But just one thing - You are going to have a little slop in order to have the Gimbal System work properly as it should - Instantaneous action/reaction of the rear-end :)

Second question. Are there suppose to be shims underneath the T mount on the chassis? The mount hits the chassis realy fast when you turn it. So I wonder if it is suppose to be higher.

Not sure, but I don’t think shims are necessary. What exactly is happening? What part of the chassis is in the path of the suspension float of the pod? I can;t say I ever encountered this on the MR02, but I have yet to try the Gimbaled Pod & TDS System completely on an 03…:o

Also on a side note, I looked at every store I know and they are all out of stock. Are they taking out of sales maybe?

Aye-aye-aye! I hope the Gimbal will continue to be produced… Philip Ng? Any comment about that last side-note LED mentioned??? The Gimbal isn’t being abandoned? Is it? :eek::confused::(

@GRANT - Any pics on the mods you’ve done to make your Gimbal system work the best for you - Please share a few pointers if you could please? I and many others would GREATLY APPRECIATE IT! Thanks again…. @LED - Hope I helped at least a lil’? :)

Viva la Gimbal baby