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View Full Version : MA010 ASF DWS (Double Wishbone Suspension)


tlkris
2010.07.16, 07:54 PM
What do you guys think?

http://www.kyoshoamerica.com/miniz/index.php?part_num=30590

I will sure get one once it is available. Very curious to try it.

lfisminiz
2010.07.16, 08:34 PM
Should be a winner with the PN front!

SaiTam
2010.07.17, 08:19 AM
How much for each of the above? The simple, tried and trued stock AWD suspension design can also be very fast as demonstrated by the local racers here.

yamar6
2010.07.17, 11:29 AM
When is it coming out

Eman
2010.07.17, 12:12 PM
Found this on you tube. Supposed to be testing of the DWS. Looks pretty quick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf5VN1HIooY

WhiteCharisma
2010.07.19, 09:08 PM
wow that video really showed off what it can do. It didn't even wiggle out of the turns or slide! man, that must be pretty stable compared to the old setup. wonder how it will compare to the SAS setup if it is better or worse.

eztuner12
2010.07.21, 01:37 AM
Definitely DWS will provide the best ride & handling performance. Now let’s wait for the front Unequal Double A-arm (FRONT DWS) suspension from PN, the only way possible to the perfection on MA-010 mini-Z
Cheers

Old Crow
2010.07.30, 07:36 AM
Pre-order is up here at the shop. I wasn't expecting the $90 price tag....

machgo5go
2010.08.07, 10:07 PM
Pre-order is up here at the shop. I wasn't expecting the $90 price tag....
http://www.kyosho.com/common/image.php?id=122302
Like Larry said, it will be a great match with PN D-AA up front.

mleemor60
2010.08.08, 07:55 AM
Pre-order is up here at the shop. I wasn't expecting the $90 price tag....

Which shop?

Old Crow
2010.08.08, 09:12 AM
Which shop?

Mike, the tinyrc.com shop has them for pre-order.

mleemor60
2010.08.08, 01:10 PM
Thank you sir.

mleemor60
2010.08.08, 01:15 PM
Thank you sir.

Old Crow
2010.08.12, 03:41 PM
Got this today. Quick points.

A lot of small parts and no extra.

The plastic for the Diff case and arms that attach to the chassis are a lower grade plastic then the rest of the set, at least it seemed that way, could be wrong.

2-3 Grams heaver compared to the rear end I had on.

Droop screw is 1.3mm hex head for adjustment, a pain considering nothing else is that size.(comes with a key)

For camber adjustment, you need to take some parts off and deal with small parts.(screws in or out of a ball joint, you will need a ruler, or some kind of other measuring method for this)

Toe is like before, just take two screws out and change the bar, you have two options with this set 3 and 4 degree.

Shocks are all plastic, was hoping the rod would be metal though, it's not.

Comes with Spur Gears for 98mm length, and the arms also that attach to the chassis.(Optional ball bearing can be used with spurs, mounts in case)

Comes with spring tension adjusters.

Bodom
2010.08.12, 05:05 PM
@Old Crow: what was the rear end you had on?
@all: Why everyone expects this to handle better than the Atomic SAS Pro v2?
edit: The only available setting for the rear Toe included in the kit are 3 and 4 degrees of toe-in ?! Isn't that too much?

Felix2010
2010.08.12, 05:11 PM
@all: Why everyone expects this to handle better than the Atomic SAS Pro v2?

Exactly what I am thinking...:D Don't get me wrong, the Kyosho DWS is mad cool, but for people like me who already have an Original SAS (Lightest-weight version) or SAS Pro v2 - I personally think the SAS v2 is swizeet:cool:

ub0211042
2010.08.12, 05:19 PM
can any of Atomic SAS shocks / springs usable on the Kyosho's DWS?

Old Crow
2010.08.12, 05:56 PM
I had the stock rear end with Alum. knuckles and Alum. toe bar.

I thought and said somewhere on the board the same thing, what will be the difference between the SAS and DWS? I don't have the SAS, but it does seem like the same principal in how it would work. SAS springs might work, not sure.

I know, the toe measurement is odd to me, I have the 3 degrees on and it does not look like as much my 1.5 toe rod did.

mini-z
2010.08.12, 08:29 PM
Which shop?

THE shop! :D

Kyosho Mini-Z MA-010 DWS Rear Double Wishbone Suspension Set (http://shop.tinyrc.com/product.php?productid=20753) (MDW100)

and

Kyosho Mini-Z MA-010 DWS Rear Double Wishbone Suspension RC Chassis Set (2.4GHz ASF) (http://shop.tinyrc.com/product.php?productid=20752) (30590)

(and, additional DWS parts such as the cool orange plastic parts are now available!)

machgo5go
2010.08.12, 08:50 PM
I just got email from my company coworker at our Japan office who is a Mini Z geeks that this DWS is not selling like hot cake in Japan as you can see for 5800 yen retail so now already dumping it at 4300 yen street price which equal to our suck USD no value money around $50.00! So now I will jump on it for sure at that price!

lfisminiz
2010.08.12, 09:39 PM
I got my wishbone set today to. Also some xtras.....not sure if they are replacement parts or actual hop-up/upgrades. Ill report back later over the weekend. Want to take my time and do it right.;):)

JuniorWKR
2010.08.12, 10:02 PM
does anyone know if this will do 90mm...

EMU
2010.08.13, 12:13 AM
I cant see Kyosho producing this suspension without 90mm compatability. A bunch of the AWD bodies released are 90mm. I will have it tomorrow, unassembled, and maybe it will have something in the instructions...

I feel that the ATM SAS Pro can be improved upon. The rear is prone to slight tweaking. This is due to the fact that it has many parts that hold the diff. This increases slop, and in hard collisions, the entire rear end can tweak a little and the gear mesh tightens or loosens a little. I am currently using the Eagle Racing SAS cage, with ATM SAS arms. The Eagle Racing arms have camber adjustment, but not toe. A Kyosho ball diff needs a little modification to the cage where the lower rear screws fit on. This is the best rear suspension that I have tried on the AWD. It is a little heavier than full ATM SAS, but weight that I am willing to pay for the decrease in slop, especially since the increase is sprung weight not unsprung mass..

SAS works with 90mm. There was only one specific model that didnt, which was 94-98mm specific. I have never used it at 90mm, but know people that have, and have seen their setups...

One thing that I really like about the DWS, is the spur gear bearing. This will help gear mesh a lot, especially at 98mm. If the rest of the package works as well as SAS, this could be the difference maker.

I dont think I will have the DWS assembled until Sunday at the earliest. Its nice to see new parts for the AWD from both Kyosho and PN. I hope there will be a resurgence in the class.

kryten
2010.08.13, 07:05 AM
It does 90,94 and 98mm. I've not seen the kit for sale over here yet,but i have seen the new chassis with the orange parts and this rear end over here. :)

Old Crow
2010.08.13, 07:41 AM
does anyone know if this will do 90mm...

Yes, it will do 90mm.

It comes with two different top and bottom lengths for connection to the main chassis. One does 90-94mm and the other does 98-102mm.

Also, the two toe bars 3 deg. and 4 deg., are the total amount of both sides, so 3 deg. is what we knew to be 1.5 and 4 deg. 2.0.

Old Crow
2010.08.19, 07:36 PM
If looking for a "upgrade" for the DWS shocks, the Atomic SAS Aluminum shocks do fit. It has a up/down screw adjustment for the spring, and works with the Kyosho springs. The screw adjustment is nice for lowering the car, or preload.

ub0211042
2010.08.19, 10:46 PM
If looking for a "upgrade" for the DWS shocks, the Atomic SAS Aluminum shocks do fit. It has a up/down screw adjustment for the spring, and works with the Kyosho springs. The screw adjustment is nice for lowering the car, or preload.

Pic Please :D

Davey G
2010.08.20, 06:30 AM
I used to own a SAS and knew it pretty well. I have not seen the new KYOSHO rear in person but from what I gather from the pics. Here is why I think it "MIGHT" be better

- 90, 94, 98mm all in one kit.

- Adjustable roll center by adding or taking away shims from underneath the ball joint that attaches to the top of the knuckle

- Aftermarket companies "WILL" make mods for this

- Adjustable camber on the fly

-Looking at the pic the hub hingepin hole,the hole is very far out, which means the lower arm will be long. The sas is the exact reverse. Longer arm will be more stable, in essence it has less built in offset.

Are there different camber rod position holes on the hub?

I will see OLD CROWES car tonight at Majs HObby. I'm sure he will write more on it tomorrow.

EMU
2010.08.21, 02:05 PM
I just got the Orange DWS chassis :) I noticed the same thing that Dave mentioned. Adjustable upper arm height, the pivot is closer to center line with longer arms. I havent driven it yet, but I am going to build up this chassis soon and give it a go. I am going to install the PN A-Arm front end on my SAS car, and move the parts from that front end to this car.

I think this will be a good part, and hope that Kyosho uses the new information into a new AWD chassis that is better balanced and thoughroly thought out suspension wise. The standard suspension does work well, but it has its limitations.

Old Crow
2010.08.21, 04:58 PM
I ran my Kyosho DWS with my PN A-Arm last night. Because it was the first time using either of them, let alone together, it was hard for me to judge the potental and test/tune them for the amount of time I would have liked too. I will say tons of turning and traction, so finding the right springs, tires, droop, camber etc. is a lot to do with two brand new supension systems that, till last night(at least that I know of), have never been used together before. I'm sure as some more time passes, we'll get a better idea of what these will be capable of. It's going to be better, just need to learn how to use them.

EMU
2010.08.21, 10:20 PM
I just finished disassembly, installed bearings and ball diffs, and alloy knuckles up front. At first glance, the system looks pretty complicated, but after playing with it for a little, its not too bad. There are a few things that I like, and dislike about the design.

Pro:
-Camber adjustment on the fly
-toe adjustment with one part
-little slop on lower arm
-sturdy feel
-longer arms, with lower pivot than SAS. Should increase roll center a little, and provide more mid cornering than SAS. It looks like you should be able to shim the upper arm pivot to raise the upper arms and lower the roll center.

Con:
-upper arm has more slop than I would like
-have to half disassemble to adjust ball diff tension, SAS one hinge screw gives access to Kyosho adjustment bolt
-downstop limiter access through upper plate is small, and you need to use very thin tool (one that comes with it works fine, but if you want to use a better tool, you may need to drill a larger hole).

This is an initial over-view, I still need to get the car track tested, but overall I like it. Is it worth $90? I cant answer that yet. Its nice to see Kyosho produce something new for the AWD, and I hope they continue development into the AWD, and develop a better balanced chassis with lower CG and similar suspension in the front.

(pics will come later)

lfisminiz
2010.08.22, 12:58 AM
Ive been messing with mine for a couple of days. Im liking it alot (with the PN A-arm front). No chatter, built well. Hopefully ill have pics also soon.;)

pfcparts
2010.08.23, 05:05 PM
Anyone get the bearing for 98? 5mm x 8mm x 2.5mm right?

Also, what type of grease are you using for the shocks?


parts

lfisminiz
2010.08.23, 06:44 PM
Anyone get the bearing for 98? 5mm x 8mm x 2.5mm right?

Also, what type of grease are you using for the shocks?


parts

Havent seen the bearing for sale yet. Didnt really see the size of it either. Hopefully your right.
Grease, i have been using Losi brown grease or Davey G. jade jizz.

EMU
2010.08.23, 07:16 PM
I thought the kit would come with the bearing :( I assume that it would be smaller than the diff bearings. Have to take a look when I get home and see if there is anything in the manual...

CristianTabush
2010.08.23, 07:45 PM
Anyone get the bearing for 98? 5mm x 8mm x 2.5mm right?

Also, what type of grease are you using for the shocks?


parts

Best stuff to use is CST Grease/oil in the 5000-20000 range. By having different thickness oils you can fine tune and find different degrees of consistent dampening under different track/temperature/grip conditions. Take advantage of this and use it as a tuning aid properly because it is one of the 2 most important aspects of tuning a shock type suspension, along with the springs you chose. Silicone based lubricants are used predominantly for sliding type shock suspensions because they have a way of attaching themselves to the surface of the suspension parts and not only smooth out operation, but actually control oscillation much better.

pfcparts
2010.08.24, 10:53 PM
CT, Thanks for clearing that grease question up
and inadvertently answering another post I had. :p

I've been using K ball diff grease and it works ok.
Probably try out some of the different K gear greases
I have left over.

The manual lists the bearing as BRG002. I
did a search and it is a 4 piece bearing set
they offer for the lazer 5 at those specs
above. Will try to find my own alternative
as I had planned an 98mm awd.


parts

Felix2010
2010.08.24, 11:35 PM
No 98mm spur gear bearing in the kit? I mean, I know I'd upgrade mine almost immediately:), but still, no spur gear bearing???:confused:

Thanks for all the info guys:)

lfisminiz
2010.08.25, 08:54 PM
Heres some pics of my completed chassis. Almost matches my team car colors..........:D
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af104/lfisminiz/P8250312.jpg
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af104/lfisminiz/P8250306.jpg

ub0211042
2010.08.25, 10:01 PM
lfisminiz, does putting in MR-03 board makes the car runs straight?

lfisminiz
2010.08.26, 04:36 AM
lfisminiz, does putting in MR-03 board makes the car runs straight?

It seems straight on my home track. Ill know more when i get to the bigger race track. Giving the fact that its still the same servo, i would say doing work to the servo/arm/gear area would help the most. Make sure its not rubbing/binding somewhere.

machgo5go
2010.08.26, 05:47 AM
Heres some pics of my completed chassis. Almost matches my team car colors..........:D
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af104/lfisminiz/P8250312.jpg
http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af104/lfisminiz/P8250306.jpg
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh123/machgo5go/MA010AWDEnzoFerrari014Large.jpg
Looks really pretty Larry & I like the holes idea which I may attempt for max cooling.

JuniorWKR
2010.08.26, 08:16 AM
lfisminiz, does putting in MR-03 board makes the car runs straight?

when putting a 03 board on an o2 servo youneed to change the gain setting from 2 to anywhere from 7-10 depending on ur driving prefence... you can do this one of three ways... through the ko computer program.. the ko handheld programmer or through the new ko dds eurus remote controlle with supplied module that comes with it...

mk2kompressor
2010.08.26, 10:20 AM
My 03 conversion has been running fine with just the drive freq changed :)

car looks awesome larry, I got the orange chassis but no time to play yet

ub0211042
2010.08.26, 10:41 AM
cool, thanks for the replies...

lfisminiz
2010.08.26, 03:03 PM
when putting a 03 board on an o2 servo youneed to change the gain setting from 2 to anywhere from 7-10 depending on ur driving prefence... you can do this one of three ways... through the ko computer program.. the ko handheld programmer or through the new ko dds eurus remote controlle with supplied module that comes with it...

JR, thats a good point.

lfisminiz
2010.08.26, 03:04 PM
My 03 conversion has been running fine with just the drive freq changed :)

car looks awesome larry, I got the orange chassis but no time to play yet

Thanks. Its actually just the chassis parts.

mk2kompressor
2010.08.26, 04:27 PM
No gold terminals in the new one;)

Scrapper
2010.08.26, 04:28 PM
so does anyone find the chasis to be better than an awd with sas

EMU
2010.08.26, 08:34 PM
I find DWS more difficult to work on than the SAS. I still havent hit the track with it, so I just wanted to put that out there. As far as fit, and slop, they are very close, edge goes to DWS. I like the fact that the SAS has shocks that have more adjustable preload. The main issue that I have with the DWS, is that it has to be disassembled a good amount just to adjust the Kyosho ball diff, which is very easy with SAS. Most of the time I dont adjust my AWD diffs, but when going to a low grip track from high grip or vice versa, you may want to fine tune it a little... which means 3-5 minutes to disassemble then adjust, and 3-5 minutes to rebuild. Compared to 30 seconds with the SAS or stock suspension.

The diff and DWS can be modified to make it easier, but many people wont want to do that.

DWS has more of a closed gearbox, so dust wont get in as easily, but it will also be more difficult to get that dust out when it gets in there. Also, more work to adjust gear mesh when you are setting it up. Once you get it worked out with how many shims go on the diff, it wont be a problem...

I like the ability to adjust rear toe without really disassembling the suspension, compared to changing out the hub carriers on the SAS to adjust toe...

In the end, I think it will be pretty close in performance, maybe the edge will goe to the Kyosho... but I think it will be almost too close to call.

At 98mm, I would say hands down the DWS should be better, with use of the spur bearing... That should keep gear mesh nice and tight, and prevent the spur from sliding back and its pinion hitting the diff spur.

Both have their ups and downs... Is Kyosho worth twice the price? Dont know yet. I will see when mine hits the track.

lfisminiz
2010.08.26, 09:22 PM
Eugene, did you see the spur gear bearing yet?

EMU
2010.08.26, 10:12 PM
Nope... but Im going to look for one, just in case I ever want to try 98mm again.

tony1
2010.10.09, 03:35 PM
too expensive for plastic, hopefully they will make an alloy or alum copy and cheaper

Sinister_Y
2010.10.19, 08:28 AM
Looks like K is releasing shocks for DWS. See attached pic. Part number is MDW101

URL:

http://www.kyosho.com/jpn/event/presently/plastic_radio/car.html

lfisminiz
2010.10.19, 03:21 PM
Ya they will look cool. I assume they are plastic? I thought i saw Aluminum shocks comming out to?

njd13
2010.12.12, 11:01 PM
Has anyone confirmed the spur gear bearing size?

ub0211042
2010.12.12, 11:08 PM
5x8x2.5mm :)