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View Full Version : PN MR03 Front Double A-Arm Suspension Coming Out?


Felix2010
2010.09.03, 02:40 AM
Hi PN and Co.,

I thought that it was great when you came out with the PN Adjustable Alm. Upper Camber/Caster bars for the 03 and now there is also the Reverse-Kingpin MR03 PN Front Suspension when used with the PN Lower Tower Bar set.

But is there still a Double A-Arm being developed for the MR03? I know there's a lot of fans out there for the MR02 Double A-Arm Front...

I have to say that the Reverse-Kingpin Front suspension, It looks interesting. Haven't tried it... Yet:D... No matter how smooth it looks though, the Double A-Arm Front Suspension for the MR02 is just Sooo Sweet.:cool: I prefer it right now to the many various suspensions for the MR03 that are available, so I am stuck running an old MR02 modded with an MR03 RA-22 board. Not that the 02 is bad, especially with that Gimbaled system.... Man, Talk about Smooooth. For anyone who hasn't tried it yet, the advantages over the T-plate suspension are definitely there.:D
Got off topic a bit...

When's the PN Double A-Arm Front coming out for the 03?!?:D:D:D

Felix2010
2010.09.13, 08:54 PM
Any news at all? Is there going to be a PN Double A-Arm Front Suspension for the MR03? PN - If you've changed your mind about developing an MR03 Double A-Arm System, and are only going to be selling your Reverse-Kingpin MR03 Front Suspension, then could we just find that out please? Thanks!:D

PNracing
2010.09.13, 08:55 PM
The MR03 on production, should be almost done.

Felix2010
2010.09.13, 08:57 PM
Fast reply! Again! Thanks!!! -Lawrence

dgomes
2010.10.11, 09:19 PM
It has been a month now from the last update.

Any news?

dxm2
2011.01.08, 07:06 PM
Has anyone tried this? How does it compare to the stock and alll the after market mods to the stock system?

machgo5go
2011.01.08, 09:11 PM
Has anyone tried this? How does it compare to the stock and alll the after market mods to the stock system?Forget stock!
Just like 02's set up. So much camber & caster for dialing in that there is so much steering input.

lfisminiz
2011.01.08, 09:55 PM
I agree. Just like the 02 version, this is my favorite on the 03 as well.

arch2b
2011.01.08, 09:57 PM
wow, jut noticed the last update on production was september 2010.

lfisminiz
2011.01.08, 10:00 PM
Arch, it just came out about 2 weeks ago.;)

arch2b
2011.01.08, 10:09 PM
ah, i guess you have to infer that given the comments but no official release news? i see it's in the 'new arrive' list but i don't check that site as often as i should so wouldn't have known had this thread not gotten more attention.

moz
2011.01.23, 02:07 AM
Saw no much review on this 03 PN double AArm:(.....any one?love to read more about this special product..thx:D

mdowney
2011.01.23, 02:53 AM
Yeah I'd like to hear some feedback on this. I've been running the PN reverse kingpins and really like them so I'd like to know what this might offer me. Anyone have any experience with it yet?

blt456
2011.01.23, 12:25 PM
I got to recently drive a local's car with it. He was running the new green springs (basically what a lot of people like) and it felt good. The car is very smooth through the corners. I got to feel the front and it is like there is 0 friction. Coming off of the straightaway is nice because I like to try and cut the corners close and go full throttle, something that I was able to do very easy with the a-arm (car was also running the TDS in the rear).

I will drive a PN Racing sponsored driver's car very soon on my own 3pk so I can get a better review, since we both have a somewhat similar driving style.

lfisminiz
2011.01.23, 04:36 PM
Agreed.........if you like it on the 02 chassis (like i do:)), you will like it on the 03 chassis! Its been my favorite and in this version still is.

PadrinoNY
2011.02.27, 11:08 AM
Ok time to wake this sleeping dragon of a thread. Now I have been a fan of the competiton company for most the 2 1/2yrs that i have been mini-z racing. Just recently I have taken the strides to change a few of my setups to PN and this front end was the reason why. I am all about aethstetics which is that I keep my rides all the same company cause that is how they are manufactured and tested. Now the big question Is there a possibility of this design being made for narrow cars? As of recently i have been more succesful in my narrow setups then wide and would like to try some PN Narrow setups.

Felix2010
2011.02.28, 03:31 AM
Ok time to wake this sleeping dragon of a thread. Now I have been a fan of the competiton company for most the 2 1/2yrs that i have been mini-z racing. Just recently I have taken the strides to change a few of my setups to PN and this front end was the reason why. I am all about aethstetics which is that I keep my rides all the same company cause that is how they are manufactured and tested. Now the big question Is there a possibility of this design being made for narrow cars? As of recently i have been more succesful in my narrow setups then wide and would like to try some PN Narrow setups.

So I take it you like the PN MR03-Version Front Double A-Arm Suspension?:D

PadrinoNY
2011.02.28, 10:17 AM
Oh yeah it's great. The only problem I have is that PN doesn't really cater to the narrow scene and there is alot of local clubs that run this in there program... Then again alot of the locals just use the competitors equipment but they hate the fact of low availability...... AT LEAST GIVE US THE ALUMINUM LOWER TOWER BAR.....

JuniorWKR
2011.02.28, 10:31 AM
dont mean to hijack a thread but a reverse kingpin narrow setup would be sick... i would definitly like to have that...

PadrinoNY
2011.02.28, 11:48 AM
dont mean to hijack a thread but a reverse kingpin narrow setup would be sick... i would definitly like to have that...

I'm telling you. I think we have to start patenting our ideas and forward them to Philip.....

EMU
2011.02.28, 12:06 PM
dont mean to hijack a thread but a reverse kingpin narrow setup would be sick... i would definitly like to have that...

I have been using reverse kingpin on my both of my narrow cars for a while... definitely good. Would love to see a lower tower bar for it....

SabRC
2011.03.29, 05:53 AM
Will PN start to make spare parts for the double A-ARM.

Davey G
2011.03.29, 11:33 AM
What spares specifically are you looking for? Pretty much all the hardware is the same as the 02 double A ARM, the upper and lower arms are the same. The upper bar and lower bar are different.

glider
2011.06.12, 05:25 PM
Having experience with a couple PN Racing A-Arm Front Suspensions I have a couple questions and a suggestion.

First off I think that the A-Arm Suspension is an exquisite piece of machined aluminum and is a bargain at the price. However, having experienced this product first hand I tend to think that it fits the profile of nascent Chinese products that tend to look better than they perform, in that too many short cuts were made, to make early sales without longterm performance in mind.

Specifically, while the detailed machining is impressive, when examining the ball joints under magnification they are finished rather roughly. Additionally, it appears that cheap aluminum was used in their construction and anodization was relied upon to provide strength and marginally increase profits short term. I say that because I went about the trouble of deanodizing the pieces and lapping them smooth to decrease the obvious friction in the suspension from the machining imperfection in the joints. Unfortunately, in spite of the initial smoothness I obtained, this resulted in a rather dramatic degradation of the ball joint surface after about a month of heavy usage. So while it sounds good in lacking kingpin stiction, it brings its own friction problems to the table.

Personally, I think the joint between the upper A-Arm ($28 replacement expense) and the knuckle is a poor design. It is rough metal on rough metal. A much better decision and product would have resulted from a full delrin to metal joint even if it would not look as pretty.

Is there any possibility of a fix for this in a 2nd generation product that would be adaptable to customers who have purchased the 1st run? Additionally, is there any thought to making optional toe out tie rods (not the toe in ones)?

yasuji
2011.06.12, 09:39 PM
Having experience with a couple PN Racing A-Arm Front Suspensions I have a couple questions and a suggestion.

First off I think that the A-Arm Suspension is an exquisite piece of machined aluminum and is a bargain at the price. However, having experienced this product first hand I tend to think that it fits the profile of nascent Chinese products that tend to look better than they perform, in that too many short cuts were made, to make early sales without longterm performance in mind.

Specifically, while the detailed machining is impressive, when examining the ball joints under magnification they are finished rather roughly. Additionally, it appears that cheap aluminum was used in their construction and anodization was relied upon to provide strength and marginally increase profits short term. I say that because I went about the trouble of deanodizing the pieces and lapping them smooth to decrease the obvious friction in the suspension from the machining imperfection in the joints. Unfortunately, in spite of the initial smoothness I obtained, this resulted in a rather dramatic degradation of the ball joint surface after about a month of heavy usage. So while it sounds good in lacking kingpin stiction, it brings its own friction problems to the table.

Personally, I think the joint between the upper A-Arm ($28 replacement expense) and the knuckle is a poor design. It is rough metal on rough metal. A much better decision and product would have resulted from a full delrin to metal joint even if it would not look as pretty.

Is there any possibility of a fix for this in a 2nd generation product that would be adaptable to customers who have purchased the 1st run? Additionally, is there any thought to making optional toe out tie rods (not the toe in ones)?
we have done some testing with delrin and molded plastic arms but it didn't amount to any thing.... understand that the AA arm front end for the MR03 uses many of the same parts from the MR02. i have never changed my upper and lower arms however i do change my knuckles from time to time ... but not for the reason u state i have changed them due to the wear from the tie rod
my front ends stay butter smooth withe minimal slop and work great! 02 or 03but i maintain my front ends on a regular basis as with the rest of my car!:)
on the toe out issue... the toe bars that come with the kit is 0 to + toe
if you would like toe out u will need to obtain the +2 +1.5 +1 standard wide MR03 toe bars

lfisminiz
2011.06.12, 10:23 PM
Agreed....under semi regular use, i havent replaced any parts yet with regular maintenance.....and smooth!;):)

blt456
2011.06.12, 10:35 PM
I have driven and held the PN a arms. 02 and 03. Both are extremely smooth from the factory with delrin balls in the upper arms. I never had to polish anything. If anything, you could have tried the new teflon balls (only $5) to replace the black delrin ones.

Multiple locals have this a-arm on their 03's. None of them mention polishing the upper arms.

color01
2011.06.13, 01:08 AM
Glider, you should never deanodize the aluminum parts, for reasons you already understand -- the surface anodizing is aluminum oxide, harder than the base aluminum underneath, which makes it a better material to line the joint with than bare aluminum. If you deanodize the joint we really can't help if the joint gets rough later on. To do it properly, lap the joints as they are with a polishing compound on the anodizing. The result will be smooth AND long lasting, and this procedure is actually listed in the manual so you should've tried it first.

glider
2011.06.13, 02:59 PM
Glider, you should never deanodize the aluminum parts, for reasons you already understand -- the surface anodizing is aluminum oxide, harder than the base aluminum underneath, which makes it a better material to line the joint with than bare aluminum. If you deanodize the joint we really can't help if the joint gets rough later on. To do it properly, lap the joints as they are with a polishing compound on the anodizing. The result will be smooth AND long lasting, and this procedure is actually listed in the manual so you should've tried it first.

Hi Brian,

Yeah, I found out the hard way :-(. I also saw the info elsewhere about using polish on the anodized surface and tried that first. Trust me when I say that the imperfections in the surface can in no substantial way be addressed in the manner suggested. Moving the suspension up and down a few times with Mothers polish will essentially do nothing to a hardened anodized surface. Perhaps the best solution is to just run it a long time and let the natural wear smooth it out.

I am considering the following hack now that I have some compromised pieces :-). Check out the attachment. To get this to work will take a bit of relief with a Dremel but could possibly end up being a more durable and friction free solution. Something along these lines would be a relatively easy improvement for a next version and could be adapted to existing systems. What do you think?

glider
2011.06.13, 03:10 PM
I have driven and held the PN a arms. 02 and 03. Both are extremely smooth from the factory with delrin balls in the upper arms. I never had to polish anything. If anything, you could have tried the new teflon balls (only $5) to replace the black delrin ones.

Multiple locals have this a-arm on their 03's. None of them mention polishing the upper arms.

I agree with you. However, the friction that is there is generated between the top a-arm and knuckle metal to metal surface. To get an idea of the source of the friction have a look at these surfaces under 8x magnification. And while it is smooth enough for a good product I believe if you look at it critically you will come to the conclusion that it is not as smooth as some other systems out there after one modifies them using polished kingpins. And that is the true competition if your choosey.

I am interested in finding those teflon balls you refer to (a small 4mm diameter size is needed*) to address the hack (previous post) I am considering. I will have a look for those!

*correction from initial post

glider
2011.06.13, 03:24 PM
we have done some testing with delrin and molded plastic arms but it didn't amount to any thing.... understand that the AA arm front end for the MR03 uses many of the same parts from the MR02. i have never changed my upper and lower arms however i do change my knuckles from time to time ... but not for the reason u state i have changed them due to the wear from the tie rod
my front ends stay butter smooth withe minimal slop and work great! 02 or 03but i maintain my front ends on a regular basis as with the rest of my car!:)
on the toe out issue... the toe bats that come with the kit is 0 to + toe
if you would like toe out u will need to obtain the +2 +1.5 +1 standard wide MR03 toe bars

Yeah, I have already ordered the +2. If I am deciphering the pdf correctly this will result in 1.5 degrees of toe out, right? I was thinking of something a bit more subtle but I will give it a try.

from the pdf:
"If a stock MR03 tie rod is used, a +3.5 toe out will be equivalent to 0
on the A-Arm suspension"

Thanks,
Brian

yasuji
2011.06.13, 06:44 PM
Yeah, I have already ordered the +2. If I am deciphering the pdf correctly this will result in 1.5 degrees of toe out, right? I was thinking of something a bit more subtle but I will give it a try.

from the pdf:
"If a stock MR03 tie rod is used, a +3.5 toe out will be equivalent to 0
on the A-Arm suspension"

Thanks,
Brian

for my mod MR03 i use the AA Arm "0" bar and i get approx 0.5-1 deg toe out....\ / this setting works good for me as it makes my car stable!
@ the 2010 RCX event i ran MR03 prototype AA Arm with the +2 bar with a bit of toe out but it was good enough to take the win!:)

glider
2011.06.13, 09:03 PM
for my mod MR03 i use the AA Arm "0" bar and i get approx 0.5-1 deg toe out....\ / this setting works good for me as it makes my car stable!
@ the 2010 RCX event i ran MR03 prototype AA Arm with the +2 bar with a bit of toe out but it was good enough to take the win!:)

I am currently running the AA 0 bar and like it as well, which is why I want to mess with a bit more toe out as well. You know, I never know how to measure the toe angle. There is a fair bit of slop in the toe bar, so do you measure it in the middle of the slop or one end or another of the slop? It seems like the outer wheel is getting pushed by the toe bar and the inner wheel is getting pulled by the toe bar in turns so that each wheel actually experiences a different level of toe in a turn. But if I take the average it does look like the AA 0 bar actually gives some toe out :-)

glider
2011.06.14, 12:01 AM
Well after giving my hack idea some more thought I think it is a no-go as it simply transfers the friction problem to the interface at the e-clip. Oh well, I will probably have to bite the bullet and go back to the anodized parts. Still I would like to see an upper arm option that locks into place a rotating teflon ball to give this system the best possible smoothness. It would appear to not be economically feasible to mass produce a really clean polished metal to metal interface on such a product.

And yes I am picky!!

cowboysir
2011.06.16, 07:43 PM
so...

building the kit Ive come across a snag. It appears that i need 4 e-clips, 2 for the bottom pins and 2 for the center pivot pin (for the knuckle) and yet my package only has 2 e-clips...

Am i missing something or am i just stupid? (only tell me Im stupid if you have documented proof)

yasuji
2011.06.16, 07:54 PM
so...

building the kit Ive come across a snag. It appears that i need 4 e-clips, 2 for the bottom pins and 2 for the center pivot pin (for the knuckle) and yet my package only has 2 e-clips...

Am i missing something or am i just stupid? (only tell me Im stupid if you have documented proof)

no clips r needed for the lower arm pivot pins.. they r held in place by the carbon plate!:)

cowboysir
2011.06.16, 08:28 PM
You forgot to call me stupid...I can't believe I didn't think of that!?!! Thanks for that...

lfisminiz
2011.06.16, 09:00 PM
You forgot to call me stupid...I can't believe I didn't think of that!?!! Thanks for that...

You should really like it. It runs great and smooooth!;)

machgo5go
2011.06.16, 09:27 PM
You should really like it. It runs great and smooooth!;)
I second that!

yasuji
2011.06.16, 09:52 PM
You forgot to call me stupid...I can't believe I didn't think of that!?!! Thanks for that...

no worries man!... it is a valid question.... it does have what looks like c clip groove!lol

lfisminiz
2011.06.16, 10:43 PM
I second that!

See you at the PN race.;)

machgo5go
2011.06.16, 11:00 PM
See you at the PN race.;)
For Sure Larry!

color01
2011.06.17, 01:13 AM
Hm, so last week when I ran at Kenon one last time Grant showed me how to properly get rid of slop on the double A-arm front end... I may have to give it another shot as I clearly haven't done this front end proper justice in my last review.

cowboysir
2011.06.17, 10:23 AM
I'd like some views of that, Brian...I finished the build last night and I have to report not being too satisfied with the end result.

Not only do I have one knuckle with a bit more play than the other on its "kingpin" but the actual arms have way more back and forth play than my previous MR02 A-arms I purchased from other people(already assembled).

I've viewed some of the shim locations on those A-arms from other purchases so I think I can improve it but in my opinion if I was to use shims to de-slop-ify (good word huh?) they should have been provided.

It has smoothish travel but has a sticky/squeaky arm at the top of the travel...my guess is at the tie-rod/knuckle interface I'm getting a bit of rub. Polishing or just grease to remedy?

Not complaining as susch...just trying to post to get answers for future members who need help getting solid smooth action from their A-arm getup.;)

color01
2011.06.17, 11:08 AM
So in general, the way that I've seen slop dealt with on this front end is to file a bit, then use a thicker shim to fill up the space. This strategy works well on the Delrin pivot balls (file the flange down, then add a 0.5mm aluminum shim, works GREAT to remove all vertical slop without binding up the ball) as well as the upper arm caster adjustment (file hinge mount down, then replace the 2x 0.2mm steel shims with a 0.5mm aluminum shim for full caster and no slop). Shimming the lower arm is a little more difficult though, as it actuates the spring and that itself is on a sliding kingpin.

The trouble is that after you run it for a while, the double A-arm will develop slop due to most joints being metal-on-metal. I didn't like that fact and I didn't know how to fix it, so Grant pulled out a pair of pliers and showed me how, lol... just squeeze the arms in towards the hinge mount and there you go, no more slop! I don't think this qualifies as an elegant solution by any means, as you'll have to squeeze the arms every so often, but it does work. That's why I'm heavily considering running the double A-arm again as I definitely don't dispute that it generates a little more grip than the reverse-kingpin setup I have now (which, again, I've stuck with because it's virtually zero-maintenance and performs quite admirably).

greenepa76
2011.06.17, 04:00 PM
Good ole brute force tuning and adjusting! I need to take some slop out of mine Brian! You drove my A-arm equipped Mosler with that slop in it.

lfisminiz
2011.06.17, 04:12 PM
I'd like some views of that, Brian...I finished the build last night and I have to report not being too satisfied with the end result.

Not only do I have one knuckle with a bit more play than the other on its "kingpin" but the actual arms have way more back and forth play than my previous MR02 A-arms I purchased from other people(already assembled).

I've viewed some of the shim locations on those A-arms from other purchases so I think I can improve it but in my opinion if I was to use shims to de-slop-ify (good word huh?) they should have been provided.

It has smoothish travel but has a sticky/squeaky arm at the top of the travel...my guess is at the tie-rod/knuckle interface I'm getting a bit of rub. Polishing or just grease to remedy?

Not complaining as susch...just trying to post to get answers for future members who need help getting solid smooth action from their A-arm getup.;)

Ive also polished all the pins in the front. Mine seem very smooth in operating.

dr_hfuhuhurr
2011.10.10, 08:53 AM
The spring cup, does it get mounted up or down. The instructions show down but at the track Friday someone said it's supposed to be up. Up has less binding and seems more "right".

I think my inconsistent handling is coming from binding with the spring cup in the down position. I was about to throw out the front end and try something else...hopefully this will take care of the issue.

Can someone confirm/deny these observations?

yasuji
2011.10.10, 10:53 AM
The spring cup, does it get mounted up or down. The instructions show down but at the track Friday someone said it's supposed to be up. Up has less binding and seems more "right".

I think my inconsistent handling is coming from binding with the spring cup in the down position. I was about to throw out the front end and try something else...hopefully this will take care of the issue.

Can someone confirm/deny these observations?

on all of my front ends i have it :lower arm, spring cup, spring.... no binding issues :)

themelis factor
2011.10.10, 11:48 AM
The spring cup, does it get mounted up or down. The instructions show down but at the track Friday someone said it's supposed to be up. Up has less binding and seems more "right".

I think my inconsistent handling is coming from binding with the spring cup in the down position. I was about to throw out the front end and try something else...hopefully this will take care of the issue.

Can someone confirm/deny these observations?

I saw your car last week and it looked really good I think your radio needs some adjusting not the front end buddy if I come this friday we will work on the radio setting together:)

dr_hfuhuhurr
2011.10.10, 12:29 PM
I saw your car last week and it looked really good I think your radio needs some adjusting not the front end buddy if I come this friday we will work on the radio setting together:)

Interesting...see you Friday! And can we pretend it's your birthday again this week? That cake was awesome!