PDA

View Full Version : Just asking...


arch2b
2010.09.25, 10:54 AM
it's becoming more and more common to attend events where autoscales are butchered, cut up, vented, flap, wings, scoops, no windscreens, etc. to the point to where i'm not certain we are racing autoscales anymore. have we lost the nerve to take a diecast autoscale and put it on a chassis and do what we can to get the best out of it without compromising the very essence of what an autoscale is?

are these 2 distinct and separate issues? meaning, clearly modified racing is exactly that. stock class has devolved however to such a degree that autoscales are rarely stock anymore.

i just wanted to broach the subject from a broad perspective and see what others think about the shift in racing styles over the last 10 years. we are clearly in a different place than we were from back in the mini-z cup days. i'm not saying those days were better or todays races are but there is a fundamental difference in the approach, styles etc. to the point to where it feels like something entirely different to me.

NO PERSONAL DISPARAGEMENTS, THIS IS A PHILISOPHICAL DEBATE ABOUT WHERE WE STARTED FROM AND WHERE WE ARE NOW WITH MINI-Z RACING.

mleemor60
2010.09.25, 12:17 PM
Development under the body has prompted the majority of the changes to the bodies good or bad. In my opinion. I have a very large and growing collection of ASC's that is being assembled for the art quality alone. Racing however leads us in different directions. In order to utilize the aerodynamic bit's that are built in by the mold process we must carve out the detail to make the opening functional. I personally don't find anything wrong with this approach. However. I deplore the cutting of wheel wells from 90mm out to 94mm and more just to take advantage of an otherwise beautiful shape or dimension. I would recommend a rule added to all groups that would allow for no more than 2mm up or 2mm down in length change to any body and hold it to an either or modification. The counter to this is the expense incurred to have a workable body for all applications.

We need a useable source of quality scale lexan bodies for racing. Not just the door stop offerings that are currently available.

bermbuster
2010.09.25, 01:02 PM
I like this thread.....
Myself im an Autoscale Purist. I feel they should be admired and run as manufactered. I remember when I had to hack my first body for the rear disc damper to clear....
I am not picking on Reflex Racing but I dont even like the idea of opening wheel wells...even 2mm....
For the life of me I dont understand why Kyosho didnt/doesnt offer replacement wings for bodies....That is what led to the new trend of Lexan wings....
The Lexan wings are durable and highly functional but they turn a beautiful piece of plastic into...blahhhh Its like 1/10 scale invaded our hobby.....

We say we have a stock class for racing but it is anything but stock.....
By me racing is done at shops and not clubs and at a club it is easier to get racers to truly race stock. A shop is in business to sell the latest greatest fastest etc.... A beautiful stock autoscale sitting on a stock chassis doesnt pay the bills....nor does it win the A main....:D
The funny thing for me is my classic autoscales come out on Sundays for the traditional Sunday drive.....Majs is open on Sunday and I can show up and turn some laps with a Ferrari GT 250 or chase down my son using my Chip cruiser w lights....

arch2b
2010.09.25, 01:31 PM
mike makes a valid point that i don't disagree with but i find it's a slippery slope and becomes a subjective thing to judge when evaluating the extent to which this is done in some cases.

i too got into mini-z for the asc quality and experience. while you won't find me tearing up my cars for better fap/wing wind flow, i do rounding/trim back the front splitter on gtc cars to prevent grabbing rcp (i do in fact leave the splitter on the car), filing down interior light buckets for wheel clearance and at times have drilled holes into the small recesses on rear bumpers where venting would be present on the real model.

i happen to like the challenge in taking an asc and getting as much as you can out of it mainly by chassis setup vs. asc modifications.

in general, it does seem like 10th scale is invading mini-z racing and i'm not certain i like it. i love the gains in performance with chassis development and overall racer skill levels in general, i'm disappointed to see larger numbers of autoscale bodies bearing little resemblance to the out of the box asc. i'm not much of a lexan body fan as they rarely are able to be produced with the same level of detail and quality that we have with the factory asc. that and there is a total lack of chassis kit protection as lexan just don't offer any protection to the chassis compared to an asc. over the last 10 years i've tested many lexan bodies, from the pro-z, the limitedED line to custom member made bodies and none have proven to be as reliable as an asc. in fact, squat did make a line of lexan bodies way back in the mr-01 days however it never seemed to sell well thus the lines were discontinued. i have been told they can be restarted however in all these years, it just hasn't happened meaning the sales just aren't there for lexan at the mini-z scale and i think a lot of it has to do with the sale appearance and attraction of the mini-z to the broader public.

with that being said, i do love seeing what others are doing with their pan cars, lexan shells, etc. some are simply awsome. just not my cup of tea. for the record, i don't put the mosler in the pan car class. it's a scale replica of a real car, not a generalized wedge with wheel arches and huge sweeping back end.

in general, i'd like to see more scrutiny in racing classes with greater care concerning the bodies in use. this however is very unrealistic as we have yet to have any common class rules or even a large enough national presence to make the concept effective. were just not there yet. i know mike is pushing all of hard to get there though;) keep up the work.:cool:

i'd like to get many more opinions from the sponsored racer side as well as the casual club racer.

EMU
2010.09.25, 02:09 PM
I tend to take a subtle approach when modifying the bodies. I like them to appear as close as I can to the ASC mold. I do run a few 90mm bodies at 94mm though, but most of the time, I only shave off about 2mm from the rear of the wheelwell. I leave my tail lights out for better airflow, but dont cut off the back bumper. I personally like the weight there, but primarily I dont like the way that it looks. I shave down the front splitter so it doesnt catch on rails. Make sure the sides are smooth with no sharp edges. Sometimes I have to shave the bottom of the body for clearance to the track.

Almost every new body that I get, I run stock. Then gradually make the appropriate wheel/damper clearance adjustments as needed I dont like having a hole in the top of the body. And in the case of the F50, I put lexan over the rear to cover the damper where I removed the glass...

I think that there are many people that will continue to race Autoscales as they come, and others will make small adjustments for them to race better. Only a small percentage of racers fully modify their bodies to maximise the performance. There are given limits to what can be done.

What bothers me, is when racers cut away all of the rear well to use wheels much wider than the body. There are a few racers that do that locally, and I think that it hurts my eyes to look at, and peronally I feel is asking for damage.

cowboysir
2010.09.25, 03:53 PM
I tend to side with both camps of thought on Mini-Z ASC modification.

For example, I feel that open/mod class should be viewed somewhat like the original idea behind F1 and CanAm back in the day...by thinking outside the box and coming up with interesting views of the technogolical rules constructors developed the sickest fastest cars with the only limitation being keeping the cars in one piece for an entire race.:D Those free thinking engineers and guys like Mantis and Reflex are what keeps the mod class developing at a furious pace.

Our stock class here in whistler conforms to arch and others view as ASC purity. In the spirit of FIA GT, DTM and other touring class racing we set a power level (same type of board/motor and battery combo) and we pick a body unmodified in any way. Your setup progresses from working around the conformity of those parameters...it makes for interesting racing.

The one thing that bothers me about ASC's though is some models translation to 1/28th scale. For example, I've seen a 2003 Dodge Viper sitting beside a Ferrari f430GT in real life and there's no way you can tell me that the scale translation is a 4mm difference and a narrower offset. It's a minor beef but i think it is somewhat valid.:)

arch2b
2010.09.25, 05:35 PM
there is obvious leeway in the purity of the accuracy of scale however when you know it's not exactly 1:27 or 1:28 it's not surprising that some are slightly smaller or larger. take the 300c and mustang as examples as well. i don't really get hung up on the scale issue simply because these cars are not a precise scale. some of them have digits past the decimal point. i'd rather get a mustang that looks enormous when next to other cars than no mustang at all. it's simply the price we have to pay to get such a diverse asc collection to choose from. we get to choose from hot hatches, sedans, tuners, to exotics, gt, gtc and lemans race cars.

mleemor60
2010.09.25, 07:44 PM
When I first got involved with mini Z's about three years ago the first Auto scale I grabbed was the Porsche 935. It was a race car I could identify with. I followed up with a Ford GT-40 then an 015 Kevin Harvick car. Let's just say it has degenerated greatly from there. I never have purchased anything from Kyosho that was a Japenese version(JGTC) body because I can't identify with anything I have not seen compete. That isn't to say that I haven't purchased white bodies to try. Likewise I refuse to run a pasta wagon of any type. My disdain for the prissy mule goes back to a time when few of our members were even thought of let alone walking around and breathing air.

Kyosho's extremely honorable propensity for correctly obtaining liscensing rights to everything they produce has been at times very maddening to an old racer like me. I was overjoyed to see the LM cars enter production because for the most part I was lucky enough to have seen many of them in competition not to mention the fact that I actually competed against some of them. Realism is the driving factor for me. I can as I said before go along with massaging a body be it ASC or white body as an evolution from say a Porsche 934 and 935. I also take a great deal of pleasure from making as many things on the body functional components as opposed to merely cosmetic.

For our rules package in the Carolina Cup we have established five classes with ten categories of car. We have GT, Touring, LMP, DP and Formula. Within each group we have made provisions for both stock and modified. We have chosen the class name designations to coincide with the major recognized racing classes that operate around the world. For each group designation such as GT we have GT1 and 2. In the 2 designations of all classes(what most all of us deem stock class) we run a spec rental motor and minimum weight. For the 1 class designation we use open motor and no weight limit. In the LMP-1 class and DP-1 class we allow lexan and in fact encourage it. The LMP-1 class is also the innovation class that allows aftermarket everything in an attempt to attract some of the larger class participant's that seem to think that if the car doesn't possess the ability to turn itself to dust in an incident it must be a toy and therefore not worthy. We have had a great deal of local success within the Carolina's and hope that we pick up another group or two to further increase the prestige of the series. The only classes we haven't run to date are the touring classes. These classes are limited to the 010 platform and don't enjoy much popularity in our area. We will continue to work on this until it fit's our concept. Some of the best racer's on the right coast have enjoyed great success while competing with us.

I am getting a bit off point here but to bring it back, one of our rules is the 2up 2 down rule which is intended to prevent the side of the car from looking like the entrance to "The Big Dig". We want to keep a semblance of realism to the whole thing. We fortunately don't have but a couple of drivers that on occaison want to run the Porsche GT-1 body which currently is the exception to the rule. The point has been brought up that as the car goes by at speed you can't even tell if it has a wheel opening let alone how big it is. This is a valid point but when a spectator walks up they invariably ask why the opening is so large.

As long as there is a race there will be a difference of opinion which is what created the race in the first place. I would guess that each group should police itself and when company comes make allowances.

We should all go out of our way to thank in particular Kyosho for giving us such a pleasant disease free way of disposing of our hard earned money. Additional gratitude should go to Atomic, Reflex and PN plus the myriad other companies of which we are all trick part of the month club members in extremely good standing.

See you at the races.

bermbuster
2010.09.25, 09:07 PM
I thank and curse Kyosho all the time for creating the mini z....:cool:
I wonder if they ever expected the platform to evolve into the high level it has attained. What Im finding interesting as well is the off brand they created the Route series of bodies.....The only other quality bodies being produced is TRP.
Remember the Iwaver bodies (yukkk...)

Now with the Lexan pan car from PN lets see how mini zs will evolve even further. (really want to see the mounting system). What scares me with Lexan I keep remembering my 1/24 slot car bodies (paper thin and no depth of detail)

Remember when we lost gloss coat to fine hand polish and now gloss coat is back....What scared me is when the bodies jumped in price.....I still cant believe im buying them but i just love the way they look.

The Porsche 935 was my first mini z readyset...:D We had a class at Majs old (banked track)place and man was that fun....

color01
2010.09.26, 06:59 AM
My personal opinion is that a car should not be "ugly". Yes I'll open up wheelwells, but it has to be done cleanly. Yes I'll make Lexan spoilers, but they have to be mounted cleanly and not look completely out of place. I'll knock mirrors and canards off the front end, but I'll often keep as much of the original splitter as possible if there is one, simply to keep the car looking a bit realistic. I'll cut out large chunks of the rear bumper too, but I always try to follow the car's original lines so that it doesn't look out of place.

The trouble with not allowing body modifications is that each body is very different, and if you want to be a racer, and be competitive without modifying a body, then usually you'll only get one or two that work. This was the case a couple years back when the SC430 and 360GTC basically ruled racing. Anyone who didn't like those two cars could try something else, and more than likely be at a disadvantage. Fast forward to today, and you find that if the longtail McLaren is too long and heavy, you can cut it to make it competitive; if the F430 doesn't hook up quite well enough, you can make a wing for it; if the 911 GT1 sucks at 90mm, you can cut it to 94mm, etc. Although yes, a lot of times you lose the scale beauty, I'm all for having different varieties of bodies on the tracks so long as they're still recognizable. I've put so much time into my 911 GT1 because I love the way it looks, and love to see it compete. I don't mind making diffusers and wings for the body so long as I can keep it looking decently realistic.

Honestly, small modifications to the bodies are unnoticeable when the cars are running on the track; even Lexan wings are hard to distinguish unless you know what you're looking for. I don't mean to point fingers, but if we want our cars to appear "scale" to laypersons the first thing to address is paint colors. I understand that bright patterns are the best for visibility, but they're the biggest tip-off to whether or not our Mini-Z's look "scale" while they're in motion. If your Stock class racers want to keep an ASC look when they race, then just force them to have realistic-looking paintjobs only, and your job is 90% finished. Last Friday when I went to Kenon everyone was running realistic-looking color schemes (save for Joe -- unpainted F1) and it really made a positive difference IMO. Again, not knocking bright schemes, but I wanted to point out that it's hard to have your cake (high visibility) and eat it too (realism).

bermbuster
2010.09.26, 09:10 AM
I too modify my painted autoscales with dremeling here and there and I found Tamiya paint in the jar matches autoscales pretty good. The only place my dremel doesnt go is in the wheel wells.....:cool: Maybe its my upbringing and the way I see things....I have to see things centered when I see something off it sends a message to my brain....:eek:

I have no issues with bright crazy colors on a "white" body. I do have an issue with racers who dont paint "white" bodies.....One track I race at has/had a rule against non painted "white" bodies....:D

What makes a sheet lexan wing look good are the stand offs you use to support them. I use either PN aluminum spacers (orange/blue/purple) or Kyosho (wheel) bushings....Now that Reflex is molding the total wing stand offs maybe a thing of the past....

herman
2010.09.27, 02:38 AM
nice read thus far... pretty interesting opinions too...

i'm kinda mixed on the issue myself... but i guess thats what rules are for...

if you are a hard core racer, i believe that you would do and try almost anything to your car that would give you that slight advantage (so long that you are within the rules)

rules for one race at a certain track may not be applicable at another race at another track... so mod races are mod races, some to the extent that anything goes...

stock however is also quite relative, as rules again for a stock race at one track, may be so different for another...

rules enable or challenge us to discover how far we can push development for each class... it also tests our skills as drivers...

i believe that the best test though can be likened to tamiya cup races (although i haven't participated in one) rules are pretty strict as to what parts are allowed and what parts aren't allowed...

this allows a pretty level playing field for all participants in terms of what parts can and should be used. it ensures that they nobody will have an unfair advantage over another because of a special third party part that was available to one participant, and not to the others.

in terms of bodies and color schemes... like some i'm more of a purist and just adore the look of these autoscales... i run them as they are, right out of the case/box...

but again because of rules, there are certain liberties that we can take advantage of, or get away with... (i ran my bulletproof clk with a plastic wing fashioned out of the autoscale flexible box it came in, when the original broke... there was no rule against it at the track, and everybody was doing it before i did... and it did improve the car's handling)... i would've even bought a white body at the time (they weren't available at the time), if it gave me faster lap times due to the lighter body without paint... if rules state ''autoscale bodies only'' then by all means it should be ''autoscale bodies only''... however it would be quite funny if there are 3 black clk's and 3 silver clk's on the track, and imagine the confusion of guessing where your car is on the track (that's how it was back then when the clk's were the only race bodies)...

i guess it all boils down to rules, how these rules are kept, and the scruteneering committee... they should be consistent and fair for all...

i feel that if kyosho (like tamiya) has an international set of rules... and hosts a regular race series... mini-z's will spread a whole lot faster over the world...

HammerZ
2010.10.13, 08:12 AM
Been a long time that I chimed in here. It seems to follow the trend slot car racing had way back in the 1960's. That started with cars that looked like scale models, by the 1970's it was nothing but lexan wedge bodies for speed. While Mini Z's are not there yet, they seem to inch closer and closer all the time. With the Mini Z Cup what all was allowed? shaving the flash from the wheelwells and breaking off the mirrors, and that about it.

Any way you look at it, it's the old foggies vs. the young upstarts. Clash of old and new ideas.

arch2b
2010.10.13, 08:39 AM
...It seems to follow the trend slot car racing had way back in the 1960's. That started with cars that looked like scale models, by the 1970's it was nothing but lexan wedge bodies for speed. While Mini Z's are not there yet, they seem to inch closer and closer all the time....
this sums up my opinion as well. ikt seems like every year we are pushing toward eventual lexan/plastice non-descript, vague pan cars. i think there is a good place for pan car classes but this seems to the general direction racing interest is going with the exception of a few shops/club that have distinct classes which i really like. the trouble is my area simply doesn't have the volume of drivers to support distinct classes on a steady basis. we strive to hold unique events like the short wheelbase race, trailer race, megane race, etc. but never enough to keep anything going for a season of any real length.

herman
2010.10.13, 11:56 PM
hmm... wondering if anybody or any shop has run or sponsored a series of box stock races?

keeping it box stock will help keep costs down... i know the speed will suck, but eventually i feel it will initially invite more racers into the hobby...

color01
2010.10.14, 01:16 AM
It seems that Kenon/Grant was trying to promote some ASC Spec-Class racing where you have to run the body as it was, and minimal power and suspension mods are permitted. For the guys who want to "keep it real", I'm pretty sure this formula is the way to go. I've kept my SC430 Test Car nearly untouched in case an ASC class ever takes off -- only changes I've made to it are GSR decals and some smoothing out of the front splitter to avoid catching rails. If RCP tracks had smooth plastic rails instead of foam, I'm sure I wouldn't even shave the splitter, I'd just run the ASC as is.

As Arch has mentioned, there are more or less two camps of RC hobbyists, and unfortunately for Mini-Z the member base is NOT large enough such that we can split camps and still have enough people for racing. The current PNWC rules are OK at making concessions to both sides, but they have definitely been getting more liberal since the series started. Perhaps for next year we should put an ASC Stock class right alongside Stock class with the following added restrictions:

-ASC or true-realistic bodies only
-non-visible body mods allowed (internal diffusers, etc.)
-only external mods allowed are minor splitter and rear bumper shaving; no major cutting
-(edit) stickers allowed for better visibility
-mirrors, headlights and taillights must be installed, light buckets too if the body has them
-spoked or mesh wheels only UNLESS the body has stock dish wheels
-chassis rules are the same as normal Stock class (70t, any FET, any suspension, etc.)

Aside from the possible purchase of a new body and wheels, adding a class like this doesn't seem like it would strain people's time and money a whole lot. After Stock class has raced, just throw on the prettier ASC version of the body and race ASC Stock, same opponents, same chassis. Food for thought. :)

EMU
2010.10.14, 01:29 AM
The main reason why I race painted white bodies, is to differentiate my car from the rest... If you use ASC only versions, you must permit decals as well; otherwise 3 people running the same body in the same race may get confusing :rolleyes: Ive been there many times with a yellow Enzo after a collision trying to figure out which car was mine (I added some black electical tape and it helped a lot). That is one reason why I stayed away from the 'hot' bodies, and tried to drive bodies that nobody was using.

color01
2010.10.14, 01:43 AM
That is a very valid point, I kind of took it for granted that people would be putting stickers on their bodies anyways. The GSR decals on my SC430 definitely help make the black body visible on the track. However, the PN body skins would have to be disallowed under this kind of situation, as they're all very loud colors, not exactly realistic with respect to 1/1 scale race cars, and they also cover up a large portion of the body, breaking the spirit of an ASC class.

Pierro
2010.10.14, 05:31 AM
Hi!

The technical reglement of the Belgian championship is rather good for me about the body modifications. No changes except lip and diffusor shaving (only for clearance reason), internal reinforcement authorized and one only hole of max 2cm for transponder. So, no removing of lightbuckets, no lexan wing etc...

For me the mini-Z racers are all about the scale look of the bodies. There's not comparison between an autoscale and any other RC race body. The closer I can find is slot racing. I like to have a look at my racing body and still finding it very attractive although a little used from the battles on the track.

I don't see the point on using a body on another wheelbase. If you don't like the way this car ride, just pick up another body that suits you as a driver. We have the chance in the mini-z scene to have a great choice of bodies to race.
We aren't stuck between a mazda 6 protoform and a all-looking-similar lola.

On the other hand EMU is right on the use of decals. At the last race I had a Sauber C9 and so had another racer in the same serie. It was difficult for the other racers to find out who was who. That's the reason why I added some blue decals on my car to easily differentiate it from the other. Only a few square inches of blue vinyl and my car is now unique.

color01
2010.10.14, 06:08 AM
I don't see the point on using a body on another wheelbase. If you don't like the way this car ride, just pick up another body that suits you as a driver. We have the chance in the mini-z scene to have a great choice of bodies to race.
We aren't stuck between a mazda 6 protoform and a all-looking-similar lola.
To be frank, the point is that when you're trying to extract the absolute maximum speed out of the car, some bodies have the exact shape that is desired, just not the right wheelbase. Perhaps all the bodies at a particular wheelbase do not have the optimal shape desired for racing. So if the rule book allows it, I want to have the best of both worlds so I'm going to cut the nicely shaped body to the right wheelbase. Of course if the rules disallow this then racers will simply have to compromise when choosing bodies, this is what we did for several years prior and this is presumably what you guys do now at your local track.

The other argument for body modifications is that buying new bodies gets expensive -- I literally cannot afford a new white body right now -- and unless you've tried out someone else's you really don't know how a new body is going to handle and how much potential it has. It is, however, easy to get familiarized with a body over time and then extract the full potential of the body through modification. It's certainly cheaper and likely will be faster than buying the new fastest body of the week, which ultimately means more cost-effective racing -- and cost-effectiveness is one of the other drawing points for Mini-Z racing. And as I mentioned earlier in the thread, allowing extensive modifications to the body will even out the playing field and introduce a wider variety of bodies to the racing field, which is definitely a gain from a marketing/promoting standpoint. So both sides of this discussion have very good points, which is why it has been so hard to come up with a community-wide solution to the problem.


Edit: I need to get off this forum for tonight, lol, I just spent the last few hours thinking about this thread and what to do about it. :o

cosmicsoul
2010.10.14, 10:54 AM
I think it really shouldn't matter what you do to the car, if done neatly most body mods are not even noticeable. In full scale racing body modifications are allowed as long as they fit the paremeters of said rules. We have several guys at our club that work on NASCAR teams, one of them is a body man. All he does is tweek the body for the next race scenario why should Mini-z's be any different. Racing is about testing, tuning and tweeking.

To me the wheel base issue is a non-issue especially since we have determined autoscales are not exactly to scale any how. I mean if you really want to be a purist then make rules that state Autoscales designed to be run as Rear motor cars should only be run RM. Don't we already have enough rules.

The general rules of most clubs and sanctioned events are all within the same guidelines. Why complicate things with yet another petty rule:(.

I must admit it does make for some good content though. So on that note lets keep the discussion going:).

arch2b
2010.10.14, 03:10 PM
... So both sides of this discussion have very good points, which is why it has been so hard to come up with a community-wide solution to the problem....

it's not necessarily a problem and i don't think a community wide solution is necessary really when classes can be separated catering to both camps.

i personally don't mind painted white bodies provided all the bits are installed, or trimming of splitters, etc. to reduce rcp drag/bite. what i don'e like are the cars with everything from the rear deck down removed, no light buckets and at times, no windows and very rarely neatly done wheelbase extensions.

i think the hfay rules are sufficient for the most part. limited acceptance of modifications for clearances and or useability of the body. i don't see how any class can require the mirrors for example. these never last more than a single race for me. sure they get installed but they will eventually break off. i can't tell you how many headlight lens's i've lost in races as well. i always start off with them but rarely end a season with them.

not all of us can appreciate nascar. i find the comparisons between nascar and mini-z racing offensive. i loved the old school days when real cars were used but todays nascar is a travesty. obviously, this is only my personal opinion. i'm sure there are racing series that have very strict body modification rules so to pick only one style to make a comparison is like any statistical number, subject to the authors interpretation and easily manipulated to make ones point.

Pierro
2010.10.14, 04:20 PM
As Arch said, we're not here to raise a problem to be solved.

This post is all about personnal feelings and way of acting. For me, I like to keep my car as stock looking as I can.
But I can fully understand that some want to take the little bit of extra of a body by some mod. That's just not my cup of tea.
I'm also more indulgent with mod made seriously and not with an axe and some rough putty.

Sure mini-Z are not true scale bodies. you only have to put some bodies side-to-side to notice. How can a mini been almost as big as an Fort mustang GT? But the limitation of the chassis wheelbase and the fact that offset wheels can't extend too much gives us some tweak.
But on my personnal point of view, even if I take a close look at the rear diffusor thread, I won't cut out the whole rear of my body even if this can give me one thenth on the track. As I said the scale look of the autoscale is one of the most important thing that attracted me in the mini-Z world.

And thus, for me, I prefer that mini-z continue to be a good looking chassis capable of doing amazing speeds and turns on a track rather than a real "full racing" car that doesn't look like the real one anymore.

kot
2010.10.14, 08:32 PM
Though I'm slightly intimidated to post what I feel due to not being a very active member, let alone a mini-z RACER at that, I'll express my opinion towards what I feel about autoscales and various modifications.

I'm merely following arch's first post based on the appearance of Kyosho's rendition (is that right? for a lack of words I guess) of vehicles from all sorts of classes.

There are many people who are into Mini-Zs for the love and beauty of how vast and realistic the bodies that are made for it are. There are also many people who enjoy racing these bodies because of how they look, rather than how they perform. There are manufacturers like PN or Atomic who create the wedge style body for the sole purpose of function and performance.

I understand that in the racing section of Mini-Zs there are different classes (not entirely sure what they are), but for those entering the specific class(es) that enable and enforce to use an ASC or whitebody, I believe that they should STICK TO REALISM and do their best to race/play with the design the body was molded in withOUT the use of non-factory parts (i.e. lexan wings. I'm a hater to lexan wings, no matter how big of a performance boost it gives to racers).

I, myself, being more of an autoscale cutter (only to very few, given I have more than one copy!), would have to say that I believe in cutting up whitebodies or ASC's to a certain degree where it still looks like the car it was intended to be. I'm also aware that this argument may have been regurgitated and supports one of what I see as two conflicting arguments: function vs form.

If mini-z racing was done with the intent for function, move to the class with pan car bodies. If you have to and want to use autoscales (form), do it while keeping it looking like what that base car should look like without looking like an eyesore. Keep original lines, but if changing it up, make it look real, not have insanely huge wheelwells like that on a SUV limo, or a wing that no one in the real world would ever use, let alone have designed.

. I thought these were classified under hobbies where you can collect and, if you pleased, race the bodies you love the most. If it's ALL ABOUT racing, move to higher scales where lexan bodies have general but hardly realistic body designs. It hurts personally to see a nice and beautifully replicated body cut up for the sake of racing :(



(Extra blurb, don't need to read it, but it goes into slightly more detail of my opinion)

I feel that if one were to butcher an ASC, they should stick to the wheelbase it was molded in (based on the argument of wheelwell cutting), and by butchering, they should still use the little parts that defines the autoscale to be what it is, despite creating many wild and crazy body lines. If you want to start with a whitebody, use the little parts, and if feeling wild, putty and styrene it to make it a whole 'new' car (like JGTC / GT300-500) in the sense that body lines are different, but are REALISTIC in a degree to tell that THAT body is still, lets say, an altezza:
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k49/Flipsoulja/DSC06692-1.jpg
(my rendition of the HKS altezza, not meant to hijack a thread or anything.)
On that note, it's like saying if longbody McLaren's weren't made yet, and someone wants to change the look of the shortbody, do it while still making it look realistic. If you cut the wheelwells, like someone said, do it neatly. Heck, it'd be better to putty up that 4mm gap to make it look a little more, again, realistic.

winner
2010.10.14, 09:40 PM
not to go upsetting anyone or anything, and i have not actually gotten a chance to race my miniz on a track yet.

but the bodies i use are normally other peoples junk that they wouldnt even use for racing because being 15 and jobless i cant afford a decent or new ASC and if you look at my cars i have a MR-02 i got a great deal on and had to sell most of my old xmods to get. and when i had to buy a body for it i found a old junky lamborghini merc that was covered in spider cracks which im currently in the process of trying to rehab. but if it comes down to it and it was get a new rear axle and a junked cheater body to race vs buying a new ASC im probably going to go for the cheater body and hoping no one realizes it.

and the price of anything for mini-z is not helping either lol..... like $7 for 2 sets of tires that last 2-3 races gets kinda expensive after awhile lol..

cosmicsoul
2010.10.15, 03:50 PM
not all of us can appreciate nascar. i find the comparisons between nascar and mini-z racing offensive. i loved the old school days when real cars were used but todays nascar is a travesty. obviously, this is only my personal opinion. i'm sure there are racing series that have very strict body modification rules so to pick only one style to make a comparison is like any statistical number, subject to the authors interpretation and easily manipulated to make ones point.

RAY,

It's a good thing I have met you in person on more than several occasions and consider you to be a friend.:) If this where not the case I might take your comments as offensive and as an insult to me personally. :confused:.

Not sure exactly what your intentions were or are. Maybe your recent stink bug infestation has affected your senses or something.

Ask anybody that knows me if I where going to say something offensive, it would be apparent.

My motive was not to offend, only to make an anology for friendly conversation sake so that maybe one day I can reach my goal of making 1000 plus posts.

To be honest with you I don't follow Nascar or any other racing, other than Mini-z racing for that matter. I do however take offense to your comment, not for myself but for some of my club mates, PEDRO and RODNEY as their profesional careers are with NASCAR. I have seen first hand how their work experience directly affects thier tuning and driving skills. Not only are they great drivers but very nice people as well.:D

May be there is a place for ASC purists at a competive level. From what I have seen though the fastest guys are running the lightest white bodies they can find. I am sure if you inspected them closely you would find that they where all running lexan wings and where dremeled out so much it would make you head spin. :rolleyes:

So there it is no hard feelings, next time I see you hopefully we can still be friends:)

Not that it has happened very often on this site, but sometimes when you are reading some ones response it can be taken the wrong way and people truly get offended.

These situations sometimes can cause trouble in a hobby that doesn't have enough participants as it is. There are certainly not enough of us for there to be enemies.

In order for this hobby to continue to grow we must support and encourage one another despite our differences and opinions.

Oh yeah and don't forget to use the :) they are your friends.

arch2b
2010.10.15, 04:51 PM
i think the intent of my reply was simply misunderstood:p there are no problems at all.:p

in my head it all made sense so let me explain it another way.
i found the analogy of mini-z racing and nascar offensive in the sense that i consider nascar in the same realm as dirt track oval vs. lemans and or european leagues. nascar is techinically racing, just as me racing around our neighborhood circle on bigwheels with my kids is as well. we go round and round at what the kids consider high rates of speed in very close proximity to eachother, curbs and drainage ditches, and use similar spec rides. the other point is that you can make just as good an analogy and comparison to much more strict racing series where body modifications are tightly controlled so to say it's accepted as part of one type and use that as a comparison to mini-z racing is not really accurate or about as accurate as me comparing it bigwheel racing. our bighweel racing is purly box stock, no modifications, no surgar rushes, power bar boosts, no high performance track shoes, no cross drilling the neck to shave weight, etc. i make an exception for gi joe, transformers sticker applications however :)

i'm more concerned about close tight racing that is both challenging and fun vs. going as fast as i can around the track thus my opinions and preferences reflect that in my classes of racing i enter and participate in.:)

i simply take offense to any comparison to nascar, has nothing at all to do with you my friend.:) i realize there is an enormous fan base in america for nascar and i was one of them at one time. i had the old school t-bird and mote carlo plastic models as a kid. i just don't care for it in it's current form at all.

i've done oval mini-z racing...i'd take hfay over that any day of the week.

we are good:) hoping it's not another couple years before we get to hang out again.

pedrocamp
2010.10.15, 05:31 PM
I hope all racing goes back to the "good old days", NASCAR, Indy Car, Sports Cars, when there was some interesting machinery (actually Sports Cars are making the most progress!). F1 always has interesting machinery but the racing suffers sometime because of it. A lot of us in the sport don't like many things about it, no offense at all Arch. Easy Jay, easy...
I do love the realism of the Kyosho bodies (built lots of static models as a kid) but think we also need a class or two available for the 12th scale/slot car type bodies (as an old CanAm fan I like the style). Kudos to PN for putting out a dedicated go-fast body.

arch2b
2010.10.15, 05:35 PM
:p yep, to reiterate, this is not to debate the need for rules to make racing one or the other as there is a place for both or more styles. just a place to ponder, speak your mind about your thoughts on the issue of one or the other or more.:)

color01
2010.10.15, 09:10 PM
I like the degree of seriousness that we get in RC racing today, although it does lead to "hot part of the week" syndrome and opportunities for uglifying some cars, it also encourages people to think out of the box and try new things to get faster (for example, aerodynamics). Progress is progress, and I'd rather not sacrifice new developments for the sake of keeping things looking pretty.

On the other hand, I should add that as Mini-Z enthusiasts, we should hold ourselves to a higher standard and not put out ugly work. If we're cutting into the body, please sand edges, round off wheelwells, trim flashing, etc. If you're going to add a Lexan wing, don't let it look like crap, trim it smooth and try not to make it obnoxiously large, and mount it properly on standoffs (unless you're going for a lip spoiler). Spending the time to make a body look decent really helps the attention it gets on the track, and helps draw new people into the hobby. I admit my guilt in leaving past whitebodies unpainted and ugly, so my 911 got trimmed in black, clearcoated and polished before hitting the track. The clearcoat and polish makes a big difference, the way the light hits and glances off the body makes it look much more realistic and pretty now. The students in my dorm see my 911 now and it actually gets compliments on the paint, some have actually expressed interest in coming to Kenon to see Mini-Z racing, and everyone here now knows about "that little toy car" and how fast it is on the communal pool table. :)