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Cherub1m
2010.10.05, 02:35 PM
Just want to point out that the GT Mod Class was entirely MR02 or MR03 has far as I know no one used an MA010(AWD) to compete in GT Mod. I know the AWD is competitive but I've noticed these two chassis drive very differently. Also, I want to point out RCP is a very high traction surface, I know it varies from track to track but that variation is not enough to call the other tracks low traction. Given that, 2WD will always be faster in high traction and has traction goes down the AWD will shine. I would like to see the AWD Mod class make a come back. Because AWD is a fun and competitive class, its a very different style of driving, companies are making parts for it, unfortunately many racers will not try new parts if they know they will not be racing the AWD. I love the AWD and I've thought why put any money in the AWD if I can't race it. I consider my self lucky that I have a LHS (Maj Hobby Shop) that still has a separate AWD Mod class. Not having an AWD Mod class will cause a slow death of the AWD It would be a shame for this class (or chassis) to just simply die.

I hope all the AWD enthusiast will put their two cents in. Lets bring the AWD back. :D

cocowawa
2010.10.05, 05:22 PM
:)Just want to point out that the GT Mod Class was entirely MR02 or MR03 has far as I know no one used an MA010(AWD) to compete in GT Mod. I know the AWD is competitive but I've noticed these two chassis drive very differently. Also, I want to point out RCP is a very high traction surface, I know it varies from track to track but that variation is not enough to call the other tracks low traction. Given that, 2WD will always be faster in high traction and has traction goes down the AWD will shine. I would like to see the AWD Mod class make a come back. Because AWD is a fun and competitive class, its a very different style of driving, companies are making parts for it, unfortunately many racers will not try new parts if they know they will not be racing the AWD. I love the AWD and I've thought why put any money in the AWD if I can't race it. I consider my self lucky that I have a LHS (Maj Hobby Shop) that still has a separate AWD Mod class. Not having an AWD Mod class will cause a slow death of the AWD It would be a shame for this class (or chassis) to just simply die.

I hope all the AWD enthusiast will put their two cents in. Lets bring the AWD back. :D

I agree with u but i have a question:
u said; will cause a slow death
and; just simply die.
are u a doctor?just curious:)

PNracing
2010.10.05, 07:43 PM
Philip

I will re-consider on PNWC 2011, but everything still consider by demand, in past PNWC finals, I got a lot of complain too much classes, and in past couple year AWD world final had 10-12 entires, so that's why we combine the AWD Mod to 2WD mod to GT Mod.

Philip

bermbuster
2010.10.05, 07:51 PM
Just want to point out that the GT Mod Class was entirely MR02 or MR03 has far as I know no one used an MA010(AWD) to compete in GT Mod. I know the AWD is competitive but I've noticed these two chassis drive very differently. Also, I want to point out RCP is a very high traction surface, I know it varies from track to track but that variation is not enough to call the other tracks low traction. Given that, 2WD will always be faster in high traction and has traction goes down the AWD will shine. I would like to see the AWD Mod class make a come back. Because AWD is a fun and competitive class, its a very different style of driving, companies are making parts for it, unfortunately many racers will not try new parts if they know they will not be racing the AWD. I love the AWD and I've thought why put any money in the AWD if I can't race it. I consider my self lucky that I have a LHS (Maj Hobby Shop) that still has a separate AWD Mod class. Not having an AWD Mod class will cause a slow death of the AWD It would be a shame for this class (or chassis) to just simply die.

I hope all the AWD enthusiast will put their two cents in. Lets bring the AWD back. :D
Here is my 4 cents......me and miniberm are in AWD RULES...........

lfisminiz
2010.10.05, 08:45 PM
I agree, i would like to see AWD class too. Weather its mod or maybe like a 50T class or whatever.

BUT, i see Philips (PN) point. Cant overload with to many classes. The AWD class needs all of us that are into it, to support and grow the class.

yasuji
2010.10.05, 09:11 PM
fwiw... i love to see the classes the way they are!...what i dont understand is where are the AWD supporters???@ the worlds in 2008 TJ had his AWD mod hooked up on the super high grip track! i think he was also faster than most of the GT mod drivers!...proving that a AWD CAN run against a 2wd on a high grip track! and fastest laps we within hundreths of a sec!:D
gt mod is set to drivers preference!
i love the fact that the classes are full of drivers and even better yet... to see about the same amount of blank spots in stk gt and pan:cool:

lfisminiz
2010.10.05, 09:21 PM
Grant, good point!;) See you in a couple of weeks.

EMU
2010.10.05, 11:00 PM
I would definitely love to see AWD in its own class... a 43t handout would be perfect ;)

Especially with all the new goodies on the market for the chassis, there are many people getting back into AWD (me included). I think that most people would still choose 2wd for mod GT, its just easier to work with.

yasuji
2010.10.05, 11:46 PM
I would definitely love to see AWD in its own class... a 43t handout would be perfect ;)

Especially with all the new goodies on the market for the chassis, there are many people getting back into AWD (me included). I think that most people would still choose 2wd for mod GT, its just easier to work with.

you should race it in gt mod in this years worlds!:D

imxlr8ed
2010.10.06, 09:15 AM
Ok... try to put aside all of the silliness surrounding the "drifting" phenom over the past few years before you read further...

Good...

I've always had this idea that if a manufacturer made a set of spec drift tires (and not hard plastic either) that a drift class on RCP could be a real racing class possibility. The tires would have to be hard enough to force the drift on RCP... I experimented with all kinds of tires on the RCP and there was a very fine line that decided which ones produced the type of drift that worked the best. The rules would have to specify type of tire, minimum diameters, and whether or not you could glue the sidewalls and such.

I had more fun drifting my AWD than trying to race it... and I would love to see some of our top racers in the scale compete in something like this. I also think it would be very interesting to see what tuning techniques would develop around something like this.

We now return you to serious AWD discussion... ;)

z3zinho
2010.10.06, 09:46 AM
Philip

I will re-consider on PNWC 2011, but everything still consider by demand, in past PNWC finals, I got a lot of complain too much classes, and in past couple year AWD world final had 10-12 entires, so that's why we combine the AWD Mod to 2WD mod to GT Mod.

Philip

FYI at the last years worlds we had 18 and 20 entries for AWD mod and stock respectively and 14 and 7 entries for pan car mod and stock... This just to show that the reality is a lot different when you compare European and US drivers.

ROBG
2010.10.06, 09:58 AM
Just want to point out that the GT Mod Class was entirely MR02 or MR03 has far as I know no one used an MA010(AWD) to compete in GT Mod. I know the AWD is competitive but I've noticed these two chassis drive very differently. Also, I want to point out RCP is a very high traction surface, I know it varies from track to track but that variation is not enough to call the other tracks low traction. Given that, 2WD will always be faster in high traction and has traction goes down the AWD will shine. I would like to see the AWD Mod class make a come back. Because AWD is a fun and competitive class, its a very different style of driving, companies are making parts for it, unfortunately many racers will not try new parts if they know they will not be racing the AWD. I love the AWD and I've thought why put any money in the AWD if I can't race it. I consider my self lucky that I have a LHS (Maj Hobby Shop) that still has a separate AWD Mod class. Not having an AWD Mod class will cause a slow death of the AWD It would be a shame for this class (or chassis) to just simply die.

I hope all the AWD enthusiast will put their two cents in. Lets bring the AWD back. :D

I aggree, AWD is so much fun and so different than other driving styles. I would hate to see this die out.

JuniorWKR
2010.10.06, 10:25 AM
you got my vote to bring back awd... and if a class has to die because of it i would eliminate 2wd stock and mod and just make one 2wd class with a decent hand out motor... something like the 50t... the classes are too close to make a difference anyway...

Cherub1m
2010.10.06, 11:48 AM
you got my vote to bring back awd... and if a class has to die because of it i would eliminate 2wd stock and mod and just make one 2wd class with a decent hand out motor... something like the 50t... the classes are too close to make a difference anyway...

Great ideas by everyone. I particularly like Junior's idea (I am paraphrasing) that 2WD stock and mod are very close in several categories, so why not just have one 2WD class (calling it 2WD Touring/GT) (of course leaving Pan and F1 class alone :D) and start an AWD class (calling it AWD Touring/GT). Or something like that. This would still keep the class numbers to 4.

EMU
2010.10.06, 11:55 AM
you should race it in gt mod in this years worlds!:D
I am definitely considering it ;) But I just dont know if it will be on pace with the 2wd cars... It really depends on the layout :rolleyes:

Regarding 2wd mod and stock, they are two completely different driving styles... stock is all about momentum, and mod is all about getting the power down... Before 70t, ~50t motors were the handouts, but with the electronics packages, they were probably the slower or same speeds that we are going with the 70t. I think a 50t motor would be too fast for a stock handout...

If the 2wd classes are combined, I think it would be good to break them up in sportsman/pro classes, where you cannot run both. That would keep the number of heats the same, but give some of the non pro/expert drivers a chance to race for a win.

yasuji
2010.10.06, 12:06 PM
Great ideas by everyone. I particularly like Junior's idea (I am paraphrasing) that 2WD stock and mod are very close in several categories, so why not just have one 2WD class (calling it 2WD Touring/GT) (of course leaving Pan and F1 class alone :D) and start an AWD class (calling it AWD Touring/GT). Or something like that. This would still keep the class numbers to 4.

that is a good idea I LIKE THIS ONE!.... 2wd spec and awd spec.....
apparently majority of the drivers feel that a awd mod can not be competitive to a 2wd mod.....on a high grip track... :rolleyes:
so this will be a way to keep the classes to a minimum
awd handout motor
2wd handout motor
f1 open
and PanCar
i like it!

JuniorWKR
2010.10.06, 12:15 PM
the problem with awd in mod open against 2wd is the gearing.. especially at the worlds.. you have to run the gearing a bit higher to keep the motor from rasting which will always keep it a bit off pace...

But my vote is -
2wd spec - 50t bushing
awd spec - 43t
f1 open
pan open

i think the 2wd spec should be 50t bushing.. this way there is still a break in process to keep things interesting... and it wont be to fast for some of the new racers out there...

if therre is enough time i would run a novice or a kids class that would be a 70 or 80t handout... this might bring some more racers in who would other wise be to intimidated to run against the fast guys...

yasuji
2010.10.06, 12:20 PM
the problem with awd in mod open against 2wd is the gearing.. especially at the worlds.. you have to run the gearing a bit higher to keep the motor from rasting which will always keep it a bit off pace...
.

in 2008 pnwc 2wd mod and awd mod ran 33 t handout motors!....
tj and a few other guys running awd mod were going faster than most 2wd mod on a high grip track!
with a handout! and we already had 64 p back then!:D

EMU
2010.10.06, 12:21 PM
I personally dont like the 50t, but love the 43 and 39.

I think it would be good to keep the two 2wd classes, stock and mod... stock being a more novice/sportsman 70t class, and mod being the expert class... Again, with racers having to choose one or the other, and not double dipping... Or just run them both as stock, and if they want to run mod, then they better get a pan body ;)

Or if AWD/2wd would run in the same class... the 2wd get 50t, AWD 43t handouts...

Im just brainstorming here a little... getting ideas out. Dont take anything personal if you dont agree with the ideas.

I do agree with less classes being better ;)

JuniorWKR
2010.10.06, 12:24 PM
i just feel thqat 2008 was a long time ago for 2wd... no tri shock, no 96mm, no aarm, no 03, no reverse kingpin.... in 2010 awd just doesnt have what it takes to hang with 2wd anymore... I feel that i have one of the best awds out there... TJ drove it and said it was one of the best cars he has ever drivin and even he admitted as good as it is it just wont hang with 2wd...

not only that awd and 2wd together causes accidents... its 2 totally different lines.. we trid it a MHS and it was carnage...

yasuji
2010.10.06, 12:29 PM
i just feel thqat 2008 was a long time ago for 2wd... no tri shock, no 96mm, no aarm, no 03, no reverse kingpin.... in 2010 awd just doesnt have what it takes to hang with 2wd anymore... I feel that i have one of the best awds out there... TJ drove it and said it was one of the best cars he has ever drivin and even he admitted as good as it is it just wont hang with 2wd...

not only that awd and 2wd together causes accidents... its 2 totally different lines.. we trid it a MHS and it was carnage...

i see....good points....
the 2wd it def a little better than it was a few years ago!
i think ur idea of awd 2wd h/o motors are good....:D

Cherub1m
2010.10.06, 12:50 PM
i see....good points....
the 2wd it def a little better than it was a few years ago!
i think ur idea of awd 2wd h/o motors are good....:D

I agree! :D

AWD (GT/Touring) with H/O motor
2WD (GT/Touring) with H/O motor
Pan Open motor
F1 Open motor

Has technology improves its always important to reassess these classes. It's great to have these discussions and brain storm about these factors. Let's hope more will have some input and let's see what direction this will take us.:D

JuniorWKR
2010.10.06, 12:52 PM
u know what motor would be great for 2wd... the old speedy 05 bb... it had good low end and could handle the ridiculaously low gearing without getting hot... what was that like a 60t motor?

SIDEWINDERZ
2010.10.06, 01:03 PM
Great Discussion!
I don't know what the answer it, but I definitely agree with Phillip in terms of limiting classes.
Sometimes less is more.
I've always looked at the PN Series as the standard and will watch and be influenced to follow a similar format.
As a new organization, I certainly want to be careful about spreading things too thin even at the local level. It would be great to run everything seperately, but if the entries within the individual classes are spread to thin, I think it takes away some of the excitement and incentive to be competitive. If there's only 8 racers in a class; other then winning the mains, what's the point of even qualifying because you're already in the "show" before you make one lap?
Yes, its always fun to race no matter what but racing is still racing and meant to be some type of competition.
I just think the more racers there are (at a similar level) competing in the same class the more excitement,validity and respect it brings to the experience for racers, fans, and the entire event.

EMU
2010.10.06, 01:08 PM
Im pretty sure the Speedy 05 was 50t. But may be something like 52t...

I think many racers will want a stock class, especially the guys that arent super fast. The majority of racers run in stock 2wd for a reason. Its slow enough to keep ahead of, but fast enough to carry good speed through the corners and post similar laptimes as the mod cars...

Switching to a faster motor will satisfy the fast guys, since theyre always looking for more speed, but leave the guys that like slower motors out in the cold (newer racers). I just wanted to put that out there...

CristianTabush
2010.10.06, 01:09 PM
i just feel thqat 2008 was a long time ago for 2wd... no tri shock, no 96mm, no aarm, no 03, no reverse kingpin.... in 2010 awd just doesnt have what it takes to hang with 2wd anymore... I feel that i have one of the best awds out there...

This is not entirely true. We came out with 96mm right before the Worlds, and we won every 2WD class with it.

Grant already had a double A-Arm on his 02 and Gimbaled mount. Granted it was in the early stages of development, but it had been a couple of months they had been playing with it.

With that, maybe the Worlds should be all Mod, like in other scales. Mod AWD, MOD PAN, MOD 2WD and Mod F1. This also forces the faster guys to run in the faster classes at the regional level races and leaves the stock class for beginners and amateurs. The handout motor thing has always been kinda lame in mod. 50T and 43T would be too slow for the Worlds, these are supposed to be the best drivers battling it out. I am ok with PN-only part rules for the motors, although I wish the quality of their can was a little better so that the tabs would not break after opening it 2 times.

Then at the Regional and National Level races you can have any stock classes/novice/sportsman/kids/Mini/ whatever that you may wish. Stock does have and plays a very important role in the development of racers and clubs, I am just not sure that it truly has a place at "The World Championships".

I still think the AWD is very capable, even in high grip situations and in stock. I remember that on a couple of occasions I went faster with an AWD that a 2WD in stock. Like EMU said, it really depends on the layout. For the style of track that PN makes, the 2WD cars are usually quicker. Yet at every single Worlds, with the exception of Vegas, the fastest times are run by AWD Mod cars.

JuniorWKR
2010.10.06, 02:56 PM
these ideas can be for regional races... the worlds can be different as its a different layout anyway... maybe run spec classes at all regional races on smaller layout so all races can track there driving skills against all other racers then just have everyone run mod at the worlds on the big layout... just the classes would stay the same...

Traveler
2010.10.06, 04:54 PM
I think many racers will want a stock class, especially the guys that arent super fast. The majority of racers run in stock 2wd for a reason. Its slow enough to keep ahead of, but fast enough to carry good speed through the corners and post similar laptimes as the mod cars...

Switching to a faster motor will satisfy the fast guys, since theyre always looking for more speed, but leave the guys that like slower motors out in the cold (newer racers). I just wanted to put that out there...

As a newer racer that's not super fast, I agree completely with this assesment. If the PNWC were to go all Mod, I'd probably not bother participating. This could have the unintended consequence of excluding drivers that might otherwise participate and grow to become world class racers. Leaving stock in for the newer/slower drivers and making the faster guys run mod seems like a more fair approach. Just a newbs perspective FWIW. :)

JuniorWKR
2010.10.06, 05:41 PM
thats why i suggested a 70 or 80t novice class...

hrdrvr
2010.10.06, 05:55 PM
I will elaborate more when I get to a pc, but I want to make a couple of quick points :)

I don't consider myself a novice (or world champ material) but I highly prefer 'stock' classes.

Also every regional I have ever gone to that had an awd class there were more participants than mod pan. Also I attended two regionals last year and 70t pan got far more entrants at both (c-mains in 70t and only a-mains in mod).

bermbuster
2010.10.06, 08:18 PM
I will elaborate more when I get to a pc, but I want to make a couple of quick points :)

I don't consider myself a novice (or world champ material) but I highly prefer 'stock' classes.

Also every regional I have ever gone to that had an awd class there were more participants than mod pan. Also I attended two regionals last year and 70t pan got far more entrants at both (c-mains in 70t and only a-mains in mod).

Honestly what is stock about a mini z in the stock class.... almost nothing....
The only thing is the speed of the motor...and the main chassis.....

Thats why you need a sportsman class (novice/beginner)

hrdrvr
2010.10.07, 09:05 AM
I agree, almost nothing is stock in stock class....which is why I put these little things ' ' around the word stock. Its a relative term, but PNs version of stock is probably the most accepted version of stock class that I know of. To keep it proper it should probably be titled 'spec' instead of 'stock'.

Back to my point though....:D I race in a small club. Id like to say we have fast racers and good competition within our group though. A couple of our guys can race with top level competitors, and a few of us have done really well at regionals. Since our group is small though, we choose to run on a lot smaller track than what is typical of regional and world layouts. With only four people on the track at a time (have to have some one call and marshall) regional sized layouts get really impersonal really quick, and the joy of door to door racing goes away. I know it is somewhat of a choice for us, as we have a location where we can run large layouts, but there are other clubs (and people) that don't have the space to practice on large layouts, but do have the skill to be world champs. The size of the layout isn't the problem for me though...its the speed of the cars. On our two wide tight layouts, you don't have enough space to run hot motors. 70t cars are generally the fastest, and if we set up a "mod friendly" layout, you still go faster with 50t motors than you do -40t motors. The size of the track just doesn't allow the faster motors to do anything but hinder the driver. Because of this I only get practice running mild or stock motors, and as much as I practice, I just cant get the hang of true mod speeds over the course of a weekend. Maybe that means I am not "world class", but to segregate the "world class" drivers to people who have access to "big tracks" only is not right, and eliminates a huge majority of the serious racers in the world.

Last year I ran at Maj's regional, which probably had the stiffest competition of any regional that I heard of. I was coming off of a win in F1 (70t) at our regional, and placed fourth up there. In pan stock I was coming off of a second at our regional and placed third up there (after bumping from 3rd in the B). I got a chance to race with some sponsored drivers, and some that are considered world class (even previous world champs). I matched (some of them) pace and consistency, which had me racing door to door and bumper to bumper with them finishing very close in contention for some wins. With (practically) all mod classes this year, I didn't have any hopes of doing this, and if the trend continues next year, I will likely also not have any chance at any high finishes at major regionals, or any chance to race with "top level" racers.


As far as AWD I do agree it needs it own place. I always used to let them run together, and it has been successful, but due to the general opinions of people who run both, you wont get too many people happy or even willing to allow them together. I raced 2 regionals in each of the past two years in which AWD classes were on the class list. Despite the fact that every one thinks they are underpowered with 70t motors, only stock class got run at each.

On another point, both of those regionals had more people in the 70t AWD classes than the pan mod classes. Why is pan mod considered the premier class when it gets the least following of any of the classes? IMO, it should be the most open class, but in some ways it is the most restrictive, which holds it back.


IMO, you need more classes so all the demographics can be covered. You don't have to run everything at the finals, just the ones that get more than 20 entries (any number would do). This year the finals are in the southeastern US (my home). The other club down here is in our same boat and would happily support 70t classes over mod (at least I think they would, guess I shouldn't speak for others), but its not even an option. It was the same at our regional. We had about 10 less people this year than last. Most of them were put off because they had to buy motors that they likely couldn't handle just to run in one event. Last year we offered 3 stock classes (F1, 2WD, and 70t pan) and mod pan (only offered mod pan cause Grant said he'd come race with us if we had the class ;)). Mod pan got 8 entries, and the last one joined just so we would have a full field (Thanks Pedro!). If I remember correctly, we had C-Mains in all the other classes.



This is just one guy's opinion and thoughts.....but it's one guy who likes to share them ;)

Gofast
2010.10.07, 09:43 AM
these ideas can be for regional races... the worlds can be different as its a different layout anyway... maybe run spec classes at all regional races on smaller layout so all races can track there driving skills against all other racers then just have everyone run mod at the worlds on the big layout... just the classes would stay the same...
This is a good recommendation. For regionals you want to provide opportunities for newbies and experts to race. Offer classes that the local shop sponsor believes will get a minimum field. Say there is an AWD stock class and if a racer is so intended to race his/her AWD stock then he/she should go get others to sign up.

If you believe you belong to the Worlds then Mod baby! How many times have I heard people saying they didn't do so well because they got a slow controlled motor. No holds barred if you are a worlds driver which many of you are.

Lastly, PN could decide to have stock classes at Worlds to cater to the local racers as demo events. How about an AWD stock drift class? Just kidding.....

CristianTabush
2010.10.07, 09:44 AM
Great Post Landon!

I really like the idea of 20+ entries min. to make it a class at the PNWC finals.

At the Regional Level, again, I would allow whatever classes people want to run, based on past years' rules, just so each club can maximize their entries based on what they race locally.

As an additional requirement. I would like to see a rule where, if you a specific Mod Class, you can't run it in stock. Or maybe something like sponsored drivers can't participate in the stock class. This way this class is left to the privateers and upcoming drivers to battle it out. It would be a great place for people to develop and showcase their talents.

I would suggest to do away with the mandatory regional layout. This has been the slow death of the PNWC regional races. It reduces the number of clubs that can participate in it and it is an entirely irrelevant statistic. Tracks vary SOOOOO much from place to place to compare times in a fair way. Some guys run on this layout 360 days a year (reserving the other 5 days for the Finals layout :P ) and get excessive track time compared to others. This puts out of towners at a VERY distinct disadvantage to not only surface, but also layout. I would think that this deters some participation. On top of that, the stats were not even updated this year, so what is really the point?

On Pan Car... Do people really consider this the premier class? I think this might be to only a few handful of people. Up until recently, it seldom is the fastest class (vs mod GT) I would think that based on popularity around the globe, the premier class would be Mod GT. It gets the most participation globally from the "top drivers." I know PN and his guys push this class a lot, but it really is not very popular anywhere, with the exception of a VERY FEW clubs. Sure it's fun, and it definitely belongs at the PNWC, but it will never surpass the GT categories in popularity. I personally look at it, as a great support class to pass some time in between the Mod GT heats ;)

Guinness
2010.10.07, 10:02 AM
i use to love racing my AWD. now i don't really see anyone racing them so doesn't inspire me mod it anymore. a seperate class for AWD would be nice, but since not many people around here race them, i guess it wouldn't really make a difference to me anyway

Daddy Rabbit
2010.10.07, 10:31 AM
I would like to see a AWD class come back, locally as well as on the Regionals and World levels. It is so diiferent when it comes to set up and that's what makes it interesting.

PNracing
2010.10.07, 10:38 AM
Thank you for everyone suggestions, it is very helpful for I design next year PNWC, after this year PNWC, I will be make many changes in PNWC 2011.

JuniorWKR
2010.10.07, 10:45 AM
if everyone is so concerned about the 70t motor then why not eliminate 2wd mod... run a pn SPEC class which will be the handout 70t motor... run pan open... awd mod (any pn motor)... and f1 mod (any pn motor)...

or run a pn spec 2wd class with a handout 50t or something like that and run a sportsman class like CT mentioned with no factory sponsored drivers with a 70t motor...

i dont think the difference between 4 or 5 classes will have that big of an impact on the racing schedule...

i just really feel that the need for a 2wd stock and a 2wd mod class is pointless...

it would look something like this:
2wd 80t or 70t privateer class (no factory sponsored drivers)
2wd PN SPEC Class - 50t motor ( i think this motor would be plenty fast enough for some great battles amoung the top drivers)
AWD Open (pn motor only)
F1 Open (pn motor only)
Pan Car Open (i think this class should be anything goes outside of lipo or lith batteries)

CristianTabush
2010.10.07, 11:05 AM
Mod 2WD/GT should not be spec, especially since 2WD mod is the most popular class WORLD wide. In the US, we love 70 turn, EVERYWHERE else they LOVE Mod GT. Why would you do away with the most prestigious international class? One thing is regional level, another thing is the finals. This is the reason why I make a distinction between the 2, because even though they are intertwined, they are kinda mutually exclusive as well.

2WD mod should allow you to use any motor you feel like. If you can't handle the power, run a 39, 45, 50T, whatever you want in the class. This is what they typically do in Europe and Latin America. People do much better with a motor that is as fast as they can handle. The way I see it, only a handful of people can truly drive 32-36T motor quicker than a 39-70T motor. Let's not "handicap" these guys just because they have better control of their cars. This also can stunt driver development. It should be open motor for this, amongst other reasons. If we start adding spec classes we will just thin racing out and this is the whole reason why they reduced the number of classes in the first place.

JuniorWKR
2010.10.07, 11:12 AM
the entire reason for having a spec class with a spec motor is the same reason PN runs identical layouts everywhere... you can say what you want about the tracks being different but its the idea behind it that i agree with...

of course home field advantage is at play but thats with every major sport out there... hence the title "home field advantage"...

i enjoy being able to see where i match up against drivers from all over... and if they run there best at their home track then i know i can compare myself to them at their best...

yasuji
2010.10.07, 11:18 AM
things that i notice at this past ILR regional....almost all of the drivers there ran gt mod....they do not run stock @ the club level... they run mod only....
and i gotta say...the level of drivers this time around was the best i have ever seen it up there! i feel that it incerases the skill level of drivers to run a mod motor and also advances there stock class set up!

as far as the PanCar class...in my mind it is the premier class it is the only class that has the least restrictions!
2wd stock= ama sportbike gtmod=world superbike PanCar=motogp:D
i run 2wd mod to kill the time;)
my reasoning for this is that i am ultimately faster with the PanCar .it is the best of all worlds.. it suits my driving style with the intro of lexan it makes it even more of a chalange;)
i do also feel that sponsored drivers(of any type) should not be in the stock class that should be the class to show new and up and coming talent to showcase the drivers and give them a chance to be seen by others!

JuniorWKR
2010.10.07, 11:27 AM
i personally always liked the idea behind a spec motor... i think it has always made for some of the best racing i have ever seen... it really shows how setup knowledge and driving plays a huge roll in the racing... so many aspects of racing come in to play with a spec motor... break in, suspension setup, batteries, driving, which line to take.... to me that makes for some exciting racing... if someone sets a new hot lap or a new lap record its that much more exciting when you know they did it with the same motor you have...

JuniorWKR
2010.10.07, 11:40 AM
and i disagree with mod makes someone a better driver... all mod makes for is bigger crashes... almost everyone i see racing mod runs way to much motor... they can thandle it... they cant hold a line... they cant improve... noone in this hobby is gonna run a slower motor in mod... the first time they get walked on in the straight they r running right back to the pits to throw the fastest motor they can get in there...

stock/spec makes for a better driver... give a guy a motor he can handle and tell him to keep pace with the best drivers out there is gonna make a better driver... stock/spec classes makes for greater setup... the guys i run with push the limits everyday with their stock cars by trying whatever it takes to squeeze another 10th of a second out... and when you learn to find the best line on the track to suit your driving style and setup... whether it be on power or off power that you prefer then and only then will you have a full understanding of what it takes to do the same in mod... only then will they know if they are blowing the line... over shooting the turns.. or pushing through them... thats my opinion...

CristianTabush
2010.10.07, 12:05 PM
You have some valid points Junior, but notice that no one said that Mod makes drivers better, rather class structure develops better drivers. If you keep the fast guys out of the slow classes, there are going to be great battles in both classes, without people getting in the way of each other, plus it also allows for the up and comers to have a better shot at winning.

Spec racing does yield some good racing, no argument here, but with good drivers, mod also yields these battles, especially with the level of talent available now in the World of Mini-Z racing.

On the home advantage, sure I am aware that it happens. I have NEVER had anyone come to our home track to come race, so that does not deter me whatsoever. Every major race I have been to, I have been the visitor. Top guys go to these events, everywhere, and usually place in the A mains. The average guy does not though. Changing the layout for a race makes for a more equal playing field, where people feel like they might have a better chance at placing well. If average Joe decides to go to a regional at X track this year, because his club can't host the specific layout, and he gets blown out of the water, he won't come back next year.

Grant, unfortunately these aren't motorcycles, and I think your comparison is a bit biased, because we all know you love Pan Car. ;) When it is the same 3-6 guys, that all belong to a same team, competing in a class, it does not make it premier. It makes it a very fast "manufacturers" cup. (Sure we have participated in it, and I know Jacob, for example likes it more than GT- but let's face it, this is predominantly a PN Driver's class at the PNWC.) If I was to compare it to anything, I would say Pan Car is like Daytona Prototypes and Mod GT is Closer to Le Mans... The prestige, though, I think does not come from the sheer speed of the cars for example, but rather from the level of competition. Usually there is a much bigger pool of talent in the GT classes. That's just the reality of it.

hrdrvr
2010.10.07, 01:22 PM
Grant, I don't think the pan class has the least restrictions. You can only run one body, and you can only run two manufactures wheels. I know it is open to electronics and other chassis, but who runs anything other than Kyosho? I know CT used to have a spektrum car (never saw him run a pan on it though), but he is the only top driver I've ever seen run something other than a Z with modified electronics. I saw Davey G try to get an MRCG together at the regional last year, but he ended up running an MR 02 in the main.


From my perspective, I like the spec classes for stock, but I don't want to be separated out. The thing that got me most excited last year at the NJ regional was actually racing with Bill (til his F1 quit), EMU, Sai, Roland, and I even hung with Chad for a few laps in that pan race. I couldn't have done that in the mod classes, or if they were told they couldn't race the stock classes. It made me better to get to run on the track with them, and compete with them for position. I learned a lot about overtaking, and being overtaken that weekend.


Our group went through something a while back when we had an influx of new racers (who were coming from a different scale). They were used to running large events with lots of people and wanted to have a sportsman class for our Z racing. It thinned the field too much, and the sportsman only progressed to the top of their class, and not up to the bottom of the "pro" class. Mike Morse said something to me back then that has stuck. "The D-Main is the place for the sportsman and beginners". After 2+ more years of racing, I agree.

dahlis
2010.10.07, 01:44 PM
I think PNWC rules and classes are good but understand that some would like too see a awd class only. 2wd stock is the biggest class in Sweden and the reason that interest of Mini-z is raising here again. People love too race this stock cars because its tight racing with few crashes and the run nearly as quick as a mod car.
Let the classes stay as they are and add AWD mod.

I absolutely dont think it should be forbidden to participate in Stock class because you are a factory driver, but I think the only parts allowed should be the one that is available for all drivers worldwide.

One thing I didnt like last year at PNWC final in Barcelona was that some guys had homemade lasercut tires which seemed too perform better than any other tire. Only tires that are availible for all drivers should be allowed. That is for all classes.

CristianTabush
2010.10.07, 02:25 PM
Sorry to start a ruckus about the stock class, and who should be allowed in it. :p This is a never ending argument that can go around for years and years. I honestly don't think there is a "right" answer, but the reality is that the Sponsored guys need to not be selfish and realize that them participating in the slower classes, intimidates beginners and amateur drivers. Not everyone, some it makes them want to try harder (Landon, for ex), but i would say that 3 out of 5 guys end up giving up. I have seen this in RC for over 20 years. I suggest this change by looking at the big picture of the racing scene, not small microcosms. At your local club, Regional Race, etc, you can run what you want.

While the World Cup does not need to be catered only to beginners and amateurs, if we all think about, these guys are the majority of our core group. Why not let them have a chance at winning a class? This has always been my argument for it. Yes, stock is fun and it's also close for the Pros but this is because it's easy. If you are a factory sponsored guy (not saying like support racers, who might not be on a factory team), you should want to be racing in the advanced level classes. I would equate it to playing a video game in easy/medium mode all the time because you can beat it with your eyes closed.

And I understand what Landon says about Mike's philosophy on the drivers sorting themselves out. This is correct, and it's gonna happen regardless of if you have pro guys or avg Joe guys. My argument has always been that as a pro driver, you should leave the easy classes for the guys with less skill.

[On that note, I am considering running stock and mod GT at the WC.(I know, kinda hypocritical, but...) I would have run Pan Car, but not having a body for it, 3 weeks before is kind of an issue. Not that I am expecting to contend on any of the classes since I have only raced a Mini-Z 3 times this year, and that's it. Unfortunately we don't have a track in Houston at the time.]

With the tire thing... It's kind of a wash. Someone always has something that the other drivers may not have. It is so hard to patrol and control these things and where do you exactly draw the line? If i am not wrong, the lazer cut tires only won 1 class. All the other classes were won by commercially available tires.

dahlis
2010.10.07, 03:00 PM
Couple of things CT
2wd Stock is easy to handle but probably the hardest to win
Tires are about 90% of the cars setup, tough if you cant get "THE" tire
Last year some guys in Sweden had kind of same opinion about what drivers are allowed to race in which class.
Several fast guys said they will give up racing if the were banned from stock class racing so here everybody are welcome in all classes and stock class is bigger than ever and mod class has almost died out unfortunaly.

CristianTabush
2010.10.07, 03:12 PM
Stock being the hardest to win is not true. It might be the closest racing, but the hardest classes to win are the modified classes.

While I agree that tires make HUGE difference. There were other tires out there that worked equally well in Barcelona. Just ask the Candel Brothers, Hodei Urra and Jacob Feinstein. They all won with commercially available tires.

wcrotty
2010.10.07, 03:32 PM
2wd stock: This is a necessary class at any level. Hand out motors even the playing field and the slower speeds make for some great racing. Stock class in every scale of racing has always been determined by battery and motor. Not the parts on the car. If you want every car to be the same then a spec class is needed. Limiting drivers also is a mistake unless you are going to call it 2wd novice, then where do you draw the line? I for one love stock and Im not a huge fan of modified. I feel its all about caring speed and not scrubbing it off with a bad line. Then you have drivers that hate stock because its slow and they like to use the speed when they can. If you like going fast then run mod. If you like driving a slower car then drive stock. If you like both then drive both. Stock and mod require a different set of skills.

Awd stock: This class was killed when the 70 T motor was put in place. It was like watching paint dry. When speedy was the hand out motor the awd stock cars were faster than the 2wd stock cars. But the problem was that stock AWD was only 1 lap slower then the mod class after an 8 min race. Just get rid of the class if its only one lap slower.

2wd / gt mod: This class started as a combined 2wd and awd in 2006 then got broken apart for 2007 2008 2009. I cant remember If an awd or 2wd took down the win in 2006 but I think it was an awd. The track was new and AWD cars ran better. This really is just A kyosho mini-z mod class with no other chassis or esc. Best driver that can keep the fastest cars under control for 8-10 min will win.

Awd mod: started after the 2006 race. Dropped after the 2009 season because there were so many classes and people complained about that. I love this class when my car run well. I HATE this class when the car isnt. It takes a lot of work to keep an AWD mod car to run perfect. If this class returns I for one will not run it.

Pan mod: started in 2006 also. People complained that Philip wasnt opening the racing to any other chassis so he created this class. Really this is the 1/28th scale class with a body restriction. Now with the lexan bodies its as close to a 12th scale class we can get. It opens things up to other manufactures. This is the class that needs to develop and its getting better. Who knows maybe in the future it will be foam tires and you will see the return of graphite chassis cars. Lipo maybe? brushless?

Look at the results below. They are all very close. 2 out of the 3 years pan was the fastest class. 2007 had different tracks for different classes.

2006
Awd/2wd mod - 47 8:01
Pan mod - 47 8:03
Awd stock 46 8:06

2008
Awd mod 54 10:12
2wd mod 54 10:02
Pan mod 55 10:01

2009
Awd mod 40 8:09
2wd mod 40 8:04
Pan mod 40 8:02

The real issue is this.
Kyosho is killing this hobby by producing a very expensive car (188 bucks for a 2.4 ghz car with no radio) and its sub par at that. Add 160 for a radio or 75 bucks for a module that fits in a 250 radio. So just to get into the hobby is $340 to get a car and Radio. (I will not accept that plastic piece of junk stock radio as a radio) The kyosho mini-z should be $100-130 and spectrum bind and drive. Look at how many cars are bind and drive and they are at a great price. Losi will be producing a bind and drive brushless version 1/24th scale rally car for 100 bucks soon. 109 for the am version now. What will i be pushing for new drivers? 109 vs 300. you do the math.

Kyosho even dropped the ball and got rid of the mini-z cup racing. I for one am happy Philip kept it alive with the PN world cup.

My suggestions for classes.

2wd stock (70t handout)
Awd mod
F1 mod
1/28th 2wd mod (lexan or plastic body)
1/24th scale stock
1/24th scale mod

CristianTabush
2010.10.07, 05:05 PM
Good post Bill, I like your class break down. I still would like to see factory guys out of stock though.

My suggestions, remember are at the FINALS level. One of the classes, at least, should be left to the amateurs. This should be the 2WD stock.

I also don't agree that there is a different set of skills to pilot stock vs. mod cars. Look at the results at EVERY regional this year, pretty much every time both classes are won by the same 2-3 guys in each area. The podiums also look very similar. This to me, says that a extremely similar skill set is being used in both classes. Bottom line is the best drivers win, whether stock or mod, 2WD, Pan or AWD.

Again, I am only suggesting this for the promotion of our sport. It will never happen, but I will always keep preaching it (and might even race stock once in a while.) If it was to happen, everyone would have to agree, and this would never happen :P

Just being idealistic... :)

bermbuster
2010.10.07, 06:20 PM
I also don't agree that there is a different set of skills to pilot stock vs. mod cars. Look at the results at EVERY regional this year, pretty much every time both classes are won by the same 2-3 guys in each area. The podiums also look very similar. This to me, says that a extremely similar skill set is being used in both classes. Bottom line is the best drivers win, whether stock or mod, 2WD, Pan or AWD.
Just being idealistic... :)

There definitely is a different set of skills and I am living proof....:D
I can get 2 more laps in stock than in mod....
The guys who win the regionals are the best drivers and some of them used one car to win and or place in the two classes......The really good drivers dont use a lot of power either.....the truth is "slow is fast"
Just being Realistic :cool:

yasuji
2010.10.07, 08:47 PM
Good post Bill, I like your class break down. I still would like to see factory guys out of stock though.

My suggestions, remember are at the FINALS level. One of the classes, at least, should be left to the amateurs. This should be the 2WD stock.

I also don't agree that there is a different set of skills to pilot stock vs. mod cars. Look at the results at EVERY regional this year, pretty much every time both classes are won by the same 2-3 guys in each area. The podiums also look very similar. This to me, says that a extremely similar skill set is being used in both classes. Bottom line is the best drivers win, whether stock or mod, 2WD, Pan or AWD.

Again, I am only suggesting this for the promotion of our sport. It will never happen, but I will always keep preaching it (and might even race stock once in a while.) If it was to happen, everyone would have to agree, and this would never happen :P

Just being idealistic... :)
on that note....ive seen alot of my drivers come and go (at the club level) because they couldnt win ...not all but quite a few! we tried handicapping and other stuff .but the less they win..( and i mean "ok we r all racing for 2nd")
it seemed they easily lost interest :(

CT... when i compared it to motorcycles i we looking @ structure as well as numbers... ama sport bike has alot of rules but close racing and huge # of entrys
wsb has more open rules but close racing and huge # of entrys
moto gp has very little rules but the smallest of fields....12 or 15....lol

landon , u r right in that aspect ...but i need not worry about minimum weight and not once will i ever look over the whole pancar field and have to think to myself....."wow his car is so fast.....he must be cheating...";)

Racer-HH
2010.10.08, 03:34 AM
Just read through the 4 pages and like to share my initial thoughts with you.

As additional information I have to point out, the we normally race a Kyosho Cup at our club and had our first PN Regional this year.

Layout: I think it is a great plus for PN, to have a standardized layout for the regionals. Of course this favours the racers with a permanent local track, but as mentioned before, there is always some kind of home court advantage. That the grip levels are not the same from track to track is known, but it is always good to have some reference.

Classes: In general I expect all classes from the regionals to be raced at the respective world finals. The classes itself should be reconsidered imho. With the Kyosho rules you have a stock class, meaning RTR plus bearings and T-/H-Bar. That's it. Talent, motor and batteries will mostly decide the outcome, which keeps this class simple, cheap (in comparison to mod classes) and beginner friendly. PNs stock class is with all the tuning as mod (I acknowledge they have to sell stuff) and the only major difference is the motor. I think this could be balanced out a little more in the future, like stock with minimal tuning and hand/out motor. To seperate the experienced drivers and the newbies you could differ between the 70T for the beginners and 80T for experts. I know it will be hard to draw a fair line between these groups, but that should not keep us from thinking this way.
To exclude stock drivers from mod and vice versa isn't necessary a good thing as a lot of people - including me - like to race both classes for their respective characteristics.
GT Mod is okay for me, but I see that some like to have a seperate AWD class. So we can think about it, especially with the new A-Arm Suspension and DWS system out there boosting interest.
F1 stands for itself and that it is an open class now is a big plus in my opinion.
Pan Cars are not popular at all at our club, but I understand that Philip wants and maybe needs to have an really open class.

Also there should be an official number of minimum entries per class and event. I think it is not necessarily a bad thing if you happen to be 8 drivers per class and everybody automatically qualifies for the A-Mains at a regional, as you still have to beat 7 other guys to finish first. But if there are only 3 entries and you have a save podium this is definitly something else.

So my wish list for 2011:
2wd stock with h/o motor (70t/80t)
2wd mod
4wd mod
Pan Car open
F1 mod

imxlr8ed
2010.10.08, 08:20 AM
Sigh...

Nobody wants the drift class... bummer. :rolleyes:

Everyone is so serious! Great reading and good points by all! (except me)

I'll try here, we've all heard this before though:

The layout issue is one point that was touched on back there somewhere. IMO, if you are a really good racer it doesn't matter what the layout is... you will prolly do well. But when racers have access to squeeze every last 10th second out of a layout, everyday, for a month before an event on that will use that specific layout... you will have a clear advantage over someone just starting on it. I've driven the layout in my basement with my eyes closed and have gone 1 1/2 laps before even brushing a wall (yes... I need to change it)... racers do get mentally tuned to the layouts. You get to know where you can push it, where you can go to avoid traffic and get away with it traction-wise as well.

I think if there is one way to keep any event fair for all, the host of the event must make sure that all drivers who enter that race have equal time on a specific layout. And to add to that, that layout should be completely different from what was down before the event.

And I would like to add that the only racers who ever shoot this idea down are usually the racers who have access to the facilities that can house these layouts... kinda noticed that over the years. ;)

Just my 2 cents...

Oh, and PNWC 2006 AWD... that was the dustiest track ever! My cars looked like they were rolled in some nasty grey flour after every heat.

JuniorWKR
2010.10.08, 02:58 PM
bottom line... i love racing these cars.. and whatever the classes or format i will be there trying my best to win and properly represent the people that back me... i really would like to see awd make a comback in its own class though...

bermbuster
2010.10.08, 04:26 PM
[QUOTE=yasuji;395061]on that note....ive seen alot of my drivers come and go (at the club level) because they couldnt win ...not all but quite a few! we tried handicapping and other stuff .but the less they win..( and i mean "ok we r all racing for 2nd")
it seemed they easily lost interest :(QUOTE]

Bob Stormer once said If it isnt fun they will not come back.....
and he was so right....
For some racers fun is the first place , others its just the competition,
others like tinkering and so on.....
If your having fun you keep on doing it. Mini z is not the cheapest form of racing either. Especially now that 1/10 scale has gone rubber tire....

Bill Crotty is spot on with Kyosho pricing.......

Cherub1m
2010.10.09, 03:48 PM
Great ideas by everyone. After I started this thread I wasnt expecting these many responces, I appreciate the kind and non judgemental coments. My hope is that AWD comes back has its own class but also find a way to keep the number of classes down.

I still like

2wd Stock or 2wd Mod
AWD Mod
F1 Mod
Pan Mod

For a total of 4 classes and maybe 5 classes if both 2wd Stock and 2wd Mod are kept in the line up.

arch2b
2010.10.09, 07:49 PM
as a casual competitive racer i can offer my opinion on the stock class. stock class should be made of of mostly amateurs, novice and those like myself. i can't tell you how many times i think to myself when entering these sponsored events, why am i doing this? when i know and see most of the sponsored drivers entering stock classes and mod classes and the results are almost always the same. you end up with maybe 3-4 people winning all the classes.

to add onto this, my sons ask me every year if they can come and race with me. i have to tell them, no, sorry, your just not good enough yet to put your car out there on a track with sponsored drivers. they are going to back into someone with a $5-600 mini-z and i'm going to be the a'hole of the day. how are my kids to grow with the hobby when they are never really welcomed or accepted? lets be honest, i'm not going to make any friends entering my kids in heats that have sponsored drivers. we all know the reality of the situation.
these events are not amateur friendly in my experience. sure, we continue to participate but in reality, its the same results every time. a novice level driver like myself gets tossed into a mixed heat only to spend a good deal of time trying to stay out of the way of the sponsored guys and continually apologizing for causing someone 10 laps ahead of me to be slowed down. the rationale being the heats sort everyone out into mains. well, techinically this is true however i can tell you that after 9 years of running c or d mains with no hopes of ever getting a trophy for any class, it sucks. i can freely admit i'm not a great driver and nearly a decade of practice has not made a significant difference. i'm just one of those types that never really had the natural talent for this despite my addiction and compelling nature to push forward and compete year after year.

i don't know what the proper solution is as your never going to get top drivers to willingly turn away from a trophy winning opportunity but at the same time, those like myself continue to enter into these events knowing with almost certainty that we will never make a podium but continue to participate out of sheer love of the experience. i may never win a trophy in any class but i will continue to race, that i can assure you.

i will continue to push for a novice class as i have for years.

EMU
2010.10.09, 08:32 PM
This is why I suggest a sportsman class which no factory drivers can compete. And the non sponsored drivers can choose to run in either the sportsman or pro classes, not both. Both should be run with the same motors, so you can compare laptimes.

Many good non sponsored racers would still enter a sportsman class, because they see a trophy in sight... Although there will be racers that would rather race in the pro/expert level...

I feel that it would bring a more beginner friendly race, and sort the field a little better for the faster racers as well. It also shouldnt increase the heat count by more than one heat.

bermbuster
2010.10.09, 08:38 PM
Hey Arch
If and when you come up to NJ and run at Majs your kids are always welcome to race.....We call kids equalizers and we deal with them....
I wished for a kids/novice class for my son as well....and in the end you will be surprised how fast your kids will mature and develop as racers when thrown to the wolves....:D

arch2b
2010.10.09, 08:57 PM
my kids used to race with our club drivers who understood and at times brought their kids.
i've been to many events over the years and i feel safe in saying that sentiment is not common across all clubs or events.

kromie101
2010.10.09, 09:27 PM
arch,i've been in your shoes many of times. i have felt the same way for alot of races mini-z and offroad. but you know what, pardon my french but F-them guys that say something about my kid racing:D.

most of those guys that biatch about it sucked when they started.we all have to start somewhere.both my boys are 10 and 13. my oldest has raced for about 4 years and is now on pace with his dad on his good day:D. he kicks my butt in offroad:(. my 10 year old is not far behind:cool:.

anyhow, don't let your kids miss out because of some jerk complaining:D. the race director of what ever event should be able to shuffle them into the right group.

sorry to dwell but man i have been through this before and it's a touchy subject for me.the kids gotta start somewhere. bring them to the worlds,i'll pay:D.LET THEM RACE WHEN EVER:D

CristianTabush
2010.10.09, 09:34 PM
Arch, what you speak, is exactly the reason why I have always felt that stock should be for amateurs/ beginners/ intermediates. Sure we can add a sportsman class as well, but it is just adding another class which thins out the field, instead of directing the most skilled guys into the faster classes, where they belong. This rule would not affect many people either. In the US, there are maybe 8-10 guys that are the "Pros" to whom this rule would apply.

Back when I ran the racing program at Atomic Mods, we would not allow the fast guys in stock. Not even at the regionals. This really helped increase participation, avoided problems on the track and overall elevated the skills of the drivers at a much quicker rate. It also motivated more people to participate at the regionals because they had a chance of qualifying for the Worlds this way. Back then, only the Top 3 from each class would qualify.

tudor_47
2010.10.10, 04:44 PM
Grant, I don't think the pan class has the least restrictions. You can only run one body, and you can only run two manufactures wheels. I know it is open to electronics and other chassis, but who runs anything other than Kyosho? I know CT used to have a spektrum car (never saw him run a pan on it though), but he is the only top driver I've ever seen run something other than a Z with modified electronics. I saw Davey G try to get an MRCG together at the regional last year, but he ended up running an MR 02 in the main.

Please!

Do not touch the pan car mod class as it is the only class we are allowed to compete in with our car the P28. And I think, although we have not had any major top finishes yet, we should be able to compete in altleast one class.
The same goes for the MRCG...

I can mount the PN pancar and I have now mounted the mosler body on our chassie, but we are NOT allowed to run in the GT.mod class.
So who knows maybve we will be allowed to compete in GT-Mod in 2011? After all Mosler is a GT body?

EMU
2010.10.10, 05:05 PM
I have never liked chassis limitations. I prefer wheelbase limitations, and the wheels must be under the body, not sticking out past it.

The Kyosho chassis has proven itself to be very reliable and fast, but that shouldnt stop someone from driving a custom built chassis if they wanted to (Mod classes).

hrdrvr
2010.10.11, 08:10 AM
Please!

Do not touch the pan car mod class as it is the only class we are allowed to compete in with our car the P28. And I think, although we have not had any major top finishes yet, we should be able to compete in altleast one class.
The same goes for the MRCG...

I can mount the PN pancar and I have now mounted the mosler body on our chassie, but we are NOT allowed to run in the GT.mod class.
So who knows maybve we will be allowed to compete in GT-Mod in 2011? After all Mosler is a GT body?

The intent of my statement was not to change the pan car class so that only Kyosho could be used. I don't know of any other group that primarily uses cars other than MiniZs, but I'm glad you came forward. There are probably more groups like you that I don't know about, and didn't take into consideration. At the World Finals level though, I think most everything has been won with a Z chassis or Z electronics.


Grant, Bill, I guess Bill's previous results prove that the pan class is premier at the finals level. :D I still think it would be regarded with higher prestige if it allowed other manufacturers bodies and wheels. This is however the "PN" WC, and I totally understand.


Arch, It is my understanding that supporting a kids class is up to the host of each PN regional. No, there isn't a "kids class" on the line-up, but as ILR has shown, you can run them at the events if there is participation. Philip is allowing me to run a kids class at the upcoming finals. Sadly, only one person seems to be keen on taking advantage of it. It seems to be that way in our local events too. The kids always end up racing with the adults. In the end, I like it better this way. The clubs that generally make up our events have a lot of beginner to intermediate level competitors. So the kids fit into our rosters perfectly. If you ever get a chance to come down to an event at HSH in NC, or one of our events at MBMZR, your kids will be welcomed as well as any one else at any driving level! You wont feel out of place!

arch2b
2010.10.11, 10:21 AM
my sons have raced with adults many times and it's always been fun for us. what we all know to be true however is that there are many out there that make a big gruff about slower drivers not giving way, backing up, or blocking them, etc, etc. at events. it happens every event i go to, someone or some people are just wired that way and very intense. regardless, it's not novice friendly for the most part.
granted, it's been years since i've seen someone chuck their car and or transmitter but i see/hear plenty of disgruntled people. we all keep saying it's a race, enjoy and move on but at the same time we all know some get pissed and are vocal about it. it's this type of response, even though it's in the minority, that makes it unwelcoming to novice drivers. no one likes to get the cold shoulder or evil money stares.
http://www.dragoart.com/tuts/pics/5/1876/how-to-draw-the-evil-monkey-from-family-guy.jpg