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Pierro
2010.10.10, 01:08 PM
Hi!

I have a question about the PN 80T motor.
On the next season of the belgian championship we may use this motor and the stock motor from kyosho.

What is the difference between the stock motor from kyosho and the PN 80 an 70 Turn? Which PN motor should be the equivalent of the stock motor from Kyosho? The 80 or the 70 Turn?

And also, what is the advantage of silver brushes? Better contact ensuring better response of the motor? A little more RPM?

Thanks a lot for your help.

herman
2010.10.10, 11:58 PM
i'm not a motor expert... but from the little i know... (somebody pls correct me if i'm wrong)
more turns means a slower motor... less turns means a faster motor

there are other factors to consider...
like the gauge of the wire being used in the armature... they can be thin, or thick...
the magnets (some magnets are stronger than others)... stronger motors provide more torque but lesser top end speed
the plates on the armature...
the commutator on the armature...
the brushes... etc.. etc..

the kyosho stock motor has about 70 turns in it i think...

click here ''how stuff works-electric motor''
(http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/motor3.htm)

if you want to read something technical try this thread click here (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27939)

or try searching the motor tech thread (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=33&order=desc&page=2)

hope this helps... :D

Pierro
2010.10.11, 06:32 AM
Yes, I know the 70t will be more powerfull thant the 70T has it has more turns.

But my real question is how close are those motors compared to the stock kyosho motor?

The data are missing on this particular motor (80T), at least for me.
And I suppose I my not be the only interrested in it...

Felix2010
2010.10.12, 12:11 AM
The PN70t motor is supposed to be very similar in performance to the box-stock Kyosho motor.

One big difference between the Kyosho stock motor and the PN70t motor is comm size: The PN70t has an extra-fat comm whilst the Kyosho stock motor has a standard/small comm. Having a thick comm usually results in more initial punch, and more torque. The brushes usually push harder against a thick comm which gives better current flow to the comm.
Standard or small commutators have their pluses too - They are more suited for speed races/tracks and where having extra-punch isn't important. The small comms tend to run smoother also due to the lesser tension of the brushes pushing against the comm. "Fat" or oversized coms also tend to have less max-Rpms.

I have not tested the new PN80t motor but I would say that having 10 more "turns" it will have less RPM than a Box-Stock Kyosho motor and the PN70t.

IMO there's too close of a margin in performance lap-time wise between Stock and Mod class. The PN70t when geared properly and on a lightweight chassis, the Stock drivers are putting up crazy-low laptimes. The PN80t might be a way to further separate Stock & Modified class racing.

Silver brushes are more conductive than carbon brushes. More conductivity means more power. Power in the sense in regards to both RPM's and Punch/torque.


I am not sure if either the PN70t or the PN80t are the equivalent to a Kyosho stock motor. RPM-wise, the Kyosho stock motor can spin really fast, over 30k and sometimes much faster. The PN70t maxes-out at 25-26k RPM's. The PN80t probably maxes-out in the lower-20K RPM range. The key difference is the commutator size. The PN motors have fat comms, the Kyosho has a small comm. The PN motors will out-perform the Kyosho stock motor in terms of Punch. Punch can win races on short, torque-necessary layouts.

You can gear the high torque motor to gain extra speed. If the small-comm motor is fast- enough you can gear-down the motor to make up for the lesser torque. It's all driver preference...:)

EMU
2010.10.12, 12:24 AM
Felix, I wouldnt necessarily blame the close margin of lap-times on the motor. The fast guys usually use all the tricks in the book to find more speed with a stock motor, fets, car wiring, battery work... Primarily, the layout makes a huge difference in laptimes. A higher speed flowing layout will have much less of a difference in laptime than a layout that has very tight corners before a high speed straight.

On Friday, I drove a fast lap of 10.16s with a 70t, 9.82s with a 43t and 9.61s with a 33t (each motor was in a different car). The layout had very fast sweeping corners, and a few really tight corners... video of layout from earlier in the week (http://www.youtube.com/user/Nnumbberrone#p/a/u/XiJS6kof81g)

Layout makes a huge difference. At most large events, the layouts are fast with few slow corners to high speed sections. Most of the time the slowest sections on the tracks are mid speed, and not really slow... so with the 70t classes, you just have to design the setup to keep speed up in the corners, and the laptimes will be similar to the mod cars that are typically faster on the straights and slower in the corners.

I may get an 80t soon just to try... :)

herman
2010.10.12, 03:18 AM
hmm... isn't 70t = 70T?
t=T; where t & T is turns...

70 turns is 70 turns right? the only difference will be the other factors i mentioned...
type of can used, type of brushes used... & more importantly gauge of wire used, type of magnets used, type of armature used...

from what i've read, the stock pn 70t seems faster than kyosho stock... has more torque and has more top end speed than the kyosho stock motor (which i believe has 70t (turns) too)

as for the pn 80t, don't have any experience with that type of motor, and haven't read anything on it... except for this... click here (http://www.rckenon.com/public_html/shop2/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=37_129_144&products_id=4880)

http://pnracing.us/productsphotos/motor-spec-sheet-100713.jpg

can anybody else chime in? hope this helps...

* was composing the above when felix and emu replied... anybody else?

Pierro
2010.10.12, 05:42 AM
Thanks to you for the answers.

Felix, thanks for your explanation of the comm. Very instructive and clear.

Arch has point out something interesting. On our championship, the cars are stock in a matter of FET and other bord modifications. So the max powered boards are the 2.4 with 4 3010 FETs. The difference might be greater than on a PN race where stock cars can be more modified.

In fact here the problem is to find someone who has already tested the 80T.
As a personnal point of view, I would rate the motors like this (from lower to higher power):
1) 80T?
2) Stock kyosho
3) 70T
4) X-speed

As our aim is to get close to the stock motor from Kyosho, we don't know what to chose between the two Pn's.

herman
2010.10.12, 06:00 AM
As our aim is to get close to the stock motor from Kyosho, we don't know what to chose between the two Pn's.

hmm... if your aim is to get close to the stock motor from kyosho.... why not just buy a stock motor from kyosho? just a thought... will greatly simplify things :D

Pierro
2010.10.12, 08:24 AM
The kyosho stock is a good motor but the PN have some interesting features...

Easy replacement of the brushes, cage with M2 holes to screw it on all kind of rear pod, open endbell to check the brushes state, better cooling...

And the price is really low compared to the simple stock motor from kyosho.

leonen
2010.10.12, 10:37 AM
Pierro,

you're absolutely right. Those things make it an attractive motor to use. But, we tested it for our stock class.

First we received a batch of 5 motors. 3 were too slow. 2 were normal on low gears, and extremely fast on high gears.

But the major problem was that they weren't stable through out race weekends. Some races they performed great, some others they sucked.

Our stock class used to be Kyosho Stock + 6 tooth pinions when we had a 9x5 meters track with a 1 meter wide rail. We now have a 13x8 meters with 1,4 meters wide and we raised to 7 teeth pinions. And still use Kyosho Stock motors.

We tested the 70t motors again, but... they were no better than the box stock from Kyosho.

I'd love to see a 60t motor, much more than an 80t.

ChiMiniRc
2010.10.12, 11:30 AM
Pierro,

you're absolutely right. Those things make it an attractive motor to use. But, we tested it for our stock class.

First we received a batch of 5 motors. 3 were too slow. 2 were normal on low gears, and extremely fast on high gears.

But the major problem was that they weren't stable through out race weekends. Some races they performed great, some others they sucked.

Our stock class used to be Kyosho Stock + 6 tooth pinions when we had a 9x5 meters track with a 1 meter wide rail. We now have a 13x8 meters with 1,4 meters wide and we raised to 7 teeth pinions. And still use Kyosho Stock motors.

We tested the 70t motors again, but... they were no better than the box stock from Kyosho.

I'd love to see a 60t motor, much more than an 80t.

I don't know if it is batches or FET configuration, but the 70t PN motors are MUCH faster than the kyosho Stock 70t. I think I'll have to take a video of the two against each other. Most of the cars using PN motors are 2.4ghz so they have the 4 FETS. In just a short straight of 7-8 tiles, the PN motor can make up a 2 tile deficit out of the turn.

mugler
2010.10.12, 03:08 PM
That's why i wish MR-03 was already a lipo/brushless machine. With brushless you really do get very very close power from motor to motor (same model/brand) and consistant performance from run to run. add to that the same brand/model lipo battery and valla the power inequality is taken out of the equation as much as it can be.

herman
2010.10.13, 06:11 AM
hmm interesting feedback...

with the features mentioned... does seem like a worthwhile purchase...

but with leonen's review... looks like the 80t has reliablility and consistency issues...

did a simple interpolation on rpm's of a 60t motor...

70t = 22,000rpm
60t = x
50t = 31,500rpm

solving for x.... is approx 26,750 rpm... dunno what it means but looks kinda interesting...

doug01n
2010.10.13, 08:47 AM
We run the 70T in our track as a stock motor... The main thing on that motor is that is consistent batch to batch, very good torque, very durable (I still use the first one I got an year ago), and with nice batterys (R1, Atomic, Orion) there's enought speed to our track.

Fastest lap time with PN70T is 12"06, but 12"80 as average good lap. With the modified motors (stockR and Atomic Stock), we drop the time to 11"75, and 12"30 as average good lap.

Our track have two 11m straights and some low speed curves, with one of the straights suspended, so there's a median speed curve going up and another going down. The carpet have a low grip, so we use Atomic Wgroove 10 at rear (any of the PN tires works there), or pure latex hand made tires.

We was thinking about test the new 80T motor in our track to see what happens... It may be even more competitive than the 70T motor, slowing down the fastast pilots and make the novice take more chances.

Comparing it to the Kyosho motor, I think it's a better motor to handle, and have a LOT of drag brake, wich is a good thing IMHO... Makes the car more predictable anda we never use the brakes, what makes things easyer to novice.

EMU
2010.10.13, 01:14 PM
I dont think that using a slower motor will bring the gap between the fastest racers to intermediate racer any closer. If anything, I think it will widen that gap. With slower motors, you have to focus on keeping speed up in the corners while taking a tight line consistently. I have found that when racing faster motors, you can alternate the line a little more to get a better run out of the corners.

With slower motors, I think you can run closer to the other racers, but finding an opportunity to pass is a little more difficult. One mistake (not necessarily a crash), might be enough to take you out of contention, which gives the edge to the expert drivers.

When racing Forza III for Xbox 360, I find that it is much easier to be in front with the higher rated classes than the slower ones, since you have to push hard in every turn with the slower cars. I feel that the same is true for Mini-Z with respect to motor power.

Felix2010
2010.10.17, 12:38 AM
I dont think that using a slower motor will bring the gap between the fastest racers to intermediate racer any closer. If anything, I think it will widen that gap.

Just to clarify, I am only referring to the overall median and fast-lap times for all racers in Stock & Modified classes - That this is where the Stock & Modified lap times (IMHO) are just too close to each other in each class's overall Fast-Lap and median lap times.

EMU - I agree that the gap between the Pro's and the Joe's will indeed become bigger with a PN80t rather than a PN 70t. The ability for slower guys to use all-out speed to make-up for mistakes/crashes is lessened tremendously when dropping down to slower stock/handout motors. Alls I was referring to was how just for example, say the fastest lap on a PNWC layout for the 70t/80t/Kyosho-Box stock is 11 seconds and overall best median lap was 11.5 seconds. Assume this is for the A-Main'ers.
Then look at the Open-Modified fastest lap and median lap times for the same A-Main pilots; Even though the Open-MOD class you can use a 30t or faster handwound custom motor that spins literally 35k RPM's Faster than the Stock Class' PN70t stock motor - The Fastest Hot Lap in Mod is only 0.5-1.0 seconds faster for both hot lap and median lap? Almost makes it seem more fun to just run Stock, if the fastest you can be with MOD is only a half-second/lap even using an insane-fast motor, you know what I mean?

What I am thinking is that if PN makes the Stock required/handout motor slower (Go to the 80t from the 70t) then the comparison in lap times between Stock 80t class and Open-MOD class will be further apart and make the Mod class more fun to see how fast you can drop that hot lap or best median laptimes(Even when comparing only the best of the best pilots only, the A-Mainers, not intermediate vs. Experts). It won't be like, "For the weekend the best fast lap for Stock 70t was 11 seconds; the best fast lap for Open Mod was 10.1 seconds." That's it? Only 0.9 seconds between the using the fastest motors (^0k+ RPM) and using a stated 24k RPM motor?

I just would like to see the fast laps for Stock be at lest 1-1.5 seconds (Or even more than 2 seconds) Slower than the fastest laps the Experts can lay down with their super-premium Modified motors. I just think it would make the Mod class look like, "Wow, there's potential to absolutely smoke the Stock class' best time of the day if you use a 28t handwound motor." BUt you need the skill to handle the 28t's power or you'll run slower than you would with a Stock motor.:D

Just some thoughts, overall this isn't a big deal for me or anything. I just think seeing wicked-fast laptimes (Or at least the possibility) with MOD is the way it should be with Op[en-MODified. WHen a guy running a Stock PN70t can put down a hot lap only a few tenth's/second slower than what he put down with a motor 3 times faster, that just seems weird.:D

EMU
2010.10.17, 04:48 AM
One of the main reasons why the laptimes are so close between 70t and mod are that the layouts typically have a lot of high speed corners, where the stock cars are usually faster in the corners because the setups are more aggressive to compensate for the decreased power. Since a lot of time is spent in the corners on these layouts, the difference in top speed on the main straight is marginal. In stock you usually dont crash as much, if at all... For many years before the 70t motor became the handout, and the handout had a little more speed, the stock class typically outperformed the mod class.

Felix2010
2010.10.17, 10:05 PM
I hear ya EMU... Years ago when the stock handout was a SPeedy 05/07 the stock cars were faster! But to me, that's no fun! I totally understand what you mean about the RCP/Track layout being the reason for the close lap times between Stock & Modified classes. I just hope that maybe going with a little but slower motor might better separate a Mod-class hot lap and race from a Stock class hot lap & race, you know what I mean?

Pierro
2010.10.25, 08:45 AM
I see that i'm not the only one interrested in these motors...

Maybe someone from PN can give us more informations? Either a driver or Philip himself?

color01
2010.10.25, 02:29 PM
As I understand it the 80t motor was supposed to slow down "expert" drivers when racing in the same field as "novice" or "sportsman" drivers... I'm not sure if anyone will ever adopt it class-wide as the Stock-class handout because it really is a slow motor... it would necessitate that you run perfect lines on the track, have exactly the right gearing, and reduce the car's weight to an absolute minimum in order to get any kind of good laps.

On the other hand, it would also make suspension setup less crucial and encourage drivers to spend more time practicing than tinkering, and if adopted would probably prompt many more experienced drivers to go to Mod class. I don't think it's a bad idea, but I would miss the good ol' 70t if it were to happen. I think it will get more newcomers into the game if they see that there is a class (80t) where the power absolutely will not overwhelm their developing driving skills... and when it comes to racing, splitting off the field into Sportsman and Expert classes seemed to work fine in the past, doing it again should be no problem. The newer drivers can run better lines with the reduced speed, their satisfaction goes up, they stay in the hobby; the expert drivers can push the envelope of the 80t and see how fast they can make it go.

Meanwhile I'd probably move up to Mod with my 43t to continue developing aero packages... yeah, I'm still not fond of the ultra-high powered motors, I just don't have reflexes that good. :o

CristianTabush
2010.10.25, 03:12 PM
If you get the Pros out of stock, the Mod times and stock times will be contrasted further, and you would see about 1 sec/ lap differences.

Any top guy that runs both classes, will go about 3 tenths of a second faster in stock than in mod. THIS IS AN ETERNITY when racing. On most track layouts this is about 2-3 laps in overall time. While numerically it does not seem like a big number, it is huge in terms of racing at the highest levels.

We at Reflex, will be supporting the 70 turn motor as "the" stock class. Atomic will as well and PN is already. It would not be good for this small industry to make a change like this right now. Standardization of the classes and compatibility in between all the racing series is key to growth, development of our scale.

If you want to slow down the cars for certain events, a good idea might be to mandate alkaline batteries in the sportsman classes with a 70 turn motor. This will make the cars slightly slower.

Felix2010
2010.10.26, 12:16 AM
I guess there are good arguments for both keepting 70t stock and making stock slower. 70t works fine right now, so I will go back to me old adage" If it ain't broke don't fix it":)