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EQMOD
2011.01.05, 10:09 PM
Brushless Mini-Z F1 Mod DONE !!

I used a Futaba R152JE AM reciever that is compatible with the stock Kyosho Mini-Z TX so that i can derive the CH1 and CH2 PWM signals for the Brushless ESC and Servo Steering;

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii128/EQMOD/brsminizf1_001.jpg

With the shell mounted, holes were made to accomodate the tall portion of the RX components which is the 27Mhz crystal and a LC tank unit.

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii128/EQMOD/brsminizf1_002.jpg


Here is a view of the RX as mounted on top of the battery holder;

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii128/EQMOD/brsminizf1_003.jpg

And the brushless motor and ESC (with built-in forward/reverse/abs brake function)

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii128/EQMOD/brsminizf1_004.jpg

Brushless motor is a TurboACE 10300KV ;

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii128/EQMOD/mbrush_009.jpg

For me to be able to use the stock steering mechanism with the Futaba RX which consists of the gears, motor and pot (typical Kyosho style steering mechanism), i used an external servo controller which processes the PWM data from the CH2 of the standard receiver and the POT feedback and converts it to motor signals for steering.

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii128/EQMOD/brsminizf1_005.jpg

ESC is tucked at the rear end of the F1;

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii128/EQMOD/brsminizf1_006.jpg

VIDEOS:

a quick test on the Steering and Brushless ESC functionality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABiA9hA8o1U

Some Throttle Punching. Obviously the floor is too slippery :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vNQh7g1bX0


And some quick steering tests;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIb6mx96oGs


Only thing left to do is the ESC programming data fine tuning :D

EQMOD
2011.01.05, 10:13 PM
some quick theoretical calculations on its top speed with such setup;

At 1S lipo power using a 6T pinion / 44T Spur Gear;

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii128/EQMOD/mspeed_01.jpg


At 2S lipo power using a 6T pinion / 44T Spur Gear;

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii128/EQMOD/mspeed_02.jpg

Of course this will change with the type of lipo battery used, overall weight, and motor efficiency ..

color01
2011.01.05, 10:38 PM
You, good sir, are crazy. Typically such a conversion is a lot of work for not all that much benefit. I like your style. ;) Great job!

herman
2011.01.06, 01:08 AM
hey eqmod.... welcome to the forums... can't wait to see that monstrosity of an abomination in person...

doug01n
2011.01.06, 04:52 AM
Wow! great job! Please... can you tell more about the ESC? is it comercial, or DIY?

I really need 1 or 2 of this little beauties. Thanks!

wildthing
2011.01.06, 05:03 AM
the ESC is a BL ESC rated for 10A sold in china.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b371/2wildthing/Toys/IMG_0057.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b371/2wildthing/Toys/IMG_0056.jpg

5v BEC
Forward, Brake, Reverse... ABS brake (all other features programable manually and/or through a prog-Box)

ChiMiniRc
2011.01.06, 09:27 AM
Nice job! Don't suppose you have a link for that ESC?
Does it support brushed motors too?

EQMOD
2011.01.06, 09:49 AM
Brushless F1 on the mini dyno (Tamiya Speed Checker) measuring approximate top speed;

Using 4 Cell NiCad - 40 Km/h;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q8pLCCvThk



Using 2S Lipo - 62 Km/h


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC_tjvvNl1M

wildthing
2011.01.06, 03:47 PM
Nice job! Don't suppose you have a link for that ESC?
Does it support brushed motors too?

http://www.sunrisemodel.com/

it is not listed in their line up but you can email them to inquire for it (10A car ESC).

it does not work with brushed ESC because it have 3 wires and power is "digitally" transfered to these three wires in certain pattern that will not allow it to be used on a brushed motors.

unless EQMOD knows how to hack to be used on brushed motors :D

wildthing
2011.01.06, 03:51 PM
Brushless F1 on the mini dyno (Tamiya Speed Checker) measuring approximate top speed;

Using 4 Cell NiCad - 40 Km/h;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q8pLCCvThk



Using 2S Lipo - 62 Km/h


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC_tjvvNl1M

even with NiCad... it is quite fast enough already....

drhavy
2011.01.06, 05:30 PM
Hello, how well does that bl controller work? Good throttle response, does it have proportional brakes? Does it cog at the start?

In other words, is it good for racing? I imagine the run times are rediculous. I'm partial to bl. This mod would also alow me to run a spektrum reciever. I like it. But it has to be controllable enough to race for me to do it.
So whats the verdict?

EQMOD
2011.01.06, 09:49 PM
very minimal cogging or almost none at all. I think this brushless motor is primarily designed not to cog as specified on the manufacturer's website. Throttle response is ok. In fact i need to tame this down by using an adjustable throttle curve TX. The kyosho tx doesnt have any programmable EPA/throttle curves except for trim and channel reverse.

As for the other ESC parameters, you can download the ESC manual from the site specified above (

The only issue so far i see right now is the power options which basically concerns the following;

- NiCad or Lithium Ion ? or Lipo
- Weight of battery
- C rating

I need to find the balance somewhere in terms of weight and the amount of power the battery can give.

herman
2011.01.06, 09:58 PM
here are some video's he posted...

vid 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABiA9hA8o1U&feature=player_embedded)
vid2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIb6mx96oGs&feature=player_embedded)
vid3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vNQh7g1bX0&feature=player_embedded)

drhavy
2011.01.07, 12:34 AM
First off, i think i forgot to congradulate you on the project! It is awsome.
I am partial to bl motors ever since I started playing w/ my micro cars many years ago.
Do you have an idea of the max rpm your shooting for? Close to a stock motor or a modded one? (motor Kv *voltage). Btw, does anyone know the max RPM of either the stock or the mod motors? As far as batteries, so many choices. The best equation for the full advantage of Bl motor is low Kv and high voltage. For me, i think high voltage just doesn't seem to feasable, so maybe higher kv to match a mod or stock motor and some LiFe would be good.

I think i might have to give this a try. I am particularly interested in how you did the servo if you dont mind explaining further. Was the board from an analog servo? Or a digital one?
Great stuff, thanks for sharing.

EQMOD
2011.01.07, 01:06 AM
Thanks and you are welcome :)

BL motors need to rotate on a per average run to roughly about 80 to 90% of its capacity in order for it to become efficient. At this state, motor usually runs cooler and the current drain is minimal. So it is basically a question of the appropriate gear ratio on a per desired average race speed. In my case, i initially chose to use lowest pinion teeth count of 6T given that i wont be able to change the teeth count on the differential gear side. If ever there is a lower pinion teeth count, i would rather get that over the current 6T as i will make things more efficient and gain enough torque at the same time. BL conversions is mainly not only for speed alone but rather on extending the run-time at the most efficient means at the least current drain.


For the servo side, i am currently using an analog servo. A digital servo will also work as long as the RX module will support it. Whether its digital or analog, the side that intefaces with a motor and the steering pot are the same on both.

EQMOD
2011.01.07, 01:23 AM
the ESC is a BL ESC rated for 10A sold in china.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b371/2wildthing/Toys/IMG_0057.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b371/2wildthing/Toys/IMG_0056.jpg

5v BEC
Forward, Brake, Reverse... ABS brake (all other features programable manually and/or through a prog-Box)

Thanks :)

Wildthing here was actually the one who provided me with the ESC. Great Stuff!!

Here are the programmable functions;

- Reverse On/Off
- Motor Timing adjust from between 0 to 30 degrees in 1 degree increments
- Acceleration : Soft, Common, Hard
- Battery Type : NiCd/NiMh, Li-Ion, Li-Pol
- NiCd/NiMh Cut off voltage : 0.05V, 0.4V, 0.5V,0.6V, -- 1.0V
- Number of Cells Li-Ion, Li-Pol
- LiIo/LiPo Cutoff voltage
- Cut-off type: Soft, Hard
- Throttle Curve: Logarithmic, Linear, Exponential
- ABS Brake on/off
- Power Limit for Forward - off,75%,50%,25%
- Power Limit for Reverse - off,75%,50%,25%
- Delay Time of startup : 0.25sec,0.5,0.7,1sec,1.5,2sec,3sec,5sec
- Forward Point: Automatic, 1.7ms,1.8ms,1.9ms,2.0ms
- Reverse Point: Automatic, 1.0ms,1.1ms,1.2ms,1.3ms
- Timing Monitor: on/off

drhavy
2011.01.07, 07:31 AM
Wow, thank you for all the input. This definitely convinces me how doable this is... Totally agree with you on the Bl motor and the reason to do this mod.

Like it more each time. Wonder if that BL motor fits in the AWD. The motor was origionally for a CB100 right, or that size? Looks that way.

He he, I get chills thinking about it. Awsome.

Drhavy

wildthing
2011.01.07, 09:04 AM
I think it would fit an AWD... the motor is small. diameter is 12mm, can lenght is 22mm... shaft is only 1.5mm. modification is required to make a motor mount and properly mount the pinion.

FA130 vs BL motor size (picture taken by EQMOD)
http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii128/EQMOD/motor_0001.jpg

If you are familiar with the losi xcelorin BL motor... it is of nearly the same size.
http://www.losi.com/Content/ProductStatic/1-36_Xcelorin/1-36motor.jpg

drhavy
2011.01.07, 10:40 AM
The motors look small enough! Did you try the outrunner yet. I was thinking of trying that one out.

I have a cb100 and a couple of those motors lying around. Gonna order the stuff i need to do this. Thanks.

EQMOD
2011.01.07, 06:20 PM
The TurboAce motor is actually a Losi Xcelorin replacement upgrade motor

http://www.wowhobbies.com/turboaceblmotor81016with16tpinion-2.aspx

I-Lap
2011.01.08, 02:33 AM
Please post info on the steering servo board.

I did a similar conversion using the board from a small Blue Arrow servo and I sometimes get oscillations where it seems to overshoot, then overcorrect the other way.

Does your steering behave well?

EQMOD
2011.01.08, 04:08 AM
Connections pretty much standard;


http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii128/EQMOD/servo_.jpg


The servo is pretty much stable on my setup.

I-Lap
2011.01.08, 10:59 AM
I have it wired correctly, I think it is just trying to drive the motor too fast or maybe doesn't work well with the range of the F1 feedback pot.

I was asking for details or source of the board you used. I watched some of your videos and the steering looks like it works very well.

.

EQMOD
2011.01.08, 06:46 PM
here is one little test while the tx and rx is active; if you force the wheels to steer on one side by hand, does the servo motor buzz ? I am basically using the type of servo board that sends a pulse width modulated fixed amplitude pulses on the motor (cause of the buzzing) instead of the type that varies the voltage (amplitude). My first attempt actually was that kind that varies the voltagte and it usually oversteers or barely moves at all even with steering input from the TX.

Right now i am using a Esky 8g Servo control board which i got from a Esky Lama V4 rc helicopter.

drhavy
2011.01.09, 02:03 PM
EQMOD,

Thanks for the help, got my stuff ordered and on the way. Before this thread I was going to dump money into several ideas (none brushless), but what I really wanted was to get to brushless. So your post has helped me to buy the right things for the project.

I have to ask, what do you find to be a drivable top speed for the average track... lets say a mini96 or something slightly larger? And what voltage did you end up using. I'm thinking of even trying 3.6 LiFe 500 cells 2 or just the 4 AAA cells are good enough?

drhavy
2011.01.09, 07:30 PM
Here is a link to a Mini Z with a X racer engine and LiFe 400 mah cels. It says he gets 15 min: I think that looks like a good target max speed for that size a track. Maybe slower for smaller tracks. Is that BL motor w/ the NiMH's similar to this in speed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0mRYOK_qYg

Drhavy

EQMOD
2011.01.15, 04:55 PM
Here are more Dyno runs on the F1 after a ball bearing upgrade ;


http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii128/EQMOD/bearf1_001s.jpg


Dyno run at 2S - 65 Km/h

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg0Teurxxks


Dyno run at 3S, throttle only at 70% due to tire ballooning - 74Km/h

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swv-50Lbb14

Tire ballooning at hi-speed;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3_uCad8c-4

wildthing
2011.01.15, 05:23 PM
next upgrade.... ball differentials with ceramic bearings... hehehe

NoBrainer
2012.08.22, 10:53 AM
Love this things.
Nice work man!