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LED
2011.02.06, 03:15 PM
Hi all.
I cannot understand this on my own anymore. To confusing.
When do I change wich spring in the rear end?
I mean I have a DDS, PN top shock and offcourse H-plate.
So in wich way does each spring effect the car handling?

Thank you

Skv012a
2011.02.06, 04:05 PM
H plate is the base for the rear end's flex. Top shock absorbs harder bumps that would result in vertical flex of the rear end; DDS dampens every movement of the rear end.

The the tri-shock's side shocks help rebound the sideways flexing back to neutral faster.

I personally don't even use the top shock, but I may just try it in the future sometime. So just the H/T plates and DDS have been parts of my MR setups.

color01
2011.02.06, 10:12 PM
T-plate provides "general stiffness": makes your suspension stiffer or softer so you get faster steering response or more traction in general.

DPS provides damping: match the damping to your T-plate stiffness so that the rear axle cannot move too fast. When the axle moves too fast you get a phenomenon known as "chatter", which reduces your ultimate traction and corner speed, and often causes traction rolling.

Top shock loads the rear suspension a little bit more in the up-down direction: because of the extra loading, you get momentarily more rear traction when hitting the gas, and momentarily less rear traction when braking. The stiffer the top spring, the stronger this effect becomes, but you can't go too stiff because most tracks are not glass-smooth -- too stiff and you will lose traction due to the wheels skipping over bumps instead of gliding over them.

The PN top shock in particular has a rebound spring that you can use to soften the loss of rear traction when braking: you can use that and the main spring to tune the on-throttle/off-throttle responsiveness of your car. Very helpful once you get the hang of how it works.

mdowney
2011.02.08, 01:13 AM
How do you decide when to run the top shock or not? I have the PN disk damper and PN top shock and one of the fast guys told me to remove the shock because it only really kept the car from "sagging". This was on a large, high-traction track and I was having trouble with traction rolling as I turned off the long straight at high speeds.

EMU
2011.02.08, 01:51 AM
When using a hard t-plate (carbon), the t-plate provides enough stiffness that a top shock is not really necessary. If using a very soft t-plate (FRP), the t-plate does not have enough stiffness to keep the car from sagging too much, so a top shock is required to increase the stiffness. You want a little sag when the car is placed down, but not to the point that you will bottom out or the car will not lift after you press down on the rear with the car in race trim (batteries and body installed).

mdowney
2011.02.08, 02:38 AM
So the shock that the US spec kit comes with is basically useless because it also comes with carbon t-plates?

Well, it doesn't come with a dual disk damper though. So I don't think you could remove the shock. Maybe that's why it's there?

Are there any other reasons to run a top shock?

EMU
2011.02.08, 02:53 AM
The Kyosho carbon t-plates are not very stiff front/back, but the wide is pretty stiff laterally.

Without a DDS, you can use the oil shock to dampen the suspension a bit, so the car reacts more consistently when you get on/off throttle.

LED
2011.02.08, 05:18 PM
Thanks for replys so far.
What about the springs in the DDS?
Is it simply a mather if you want to use a thicker oil then you have you put in a stiffer spring ?

color01
2011.02.08, 08:13 PM
No, it's an either/or situation. :) You can use stiffer DPS springs or put thicker oil on the plates, both will increase the amount of damping. I would imagine that thicker oil is better, as you're not increasing the amount of inherent stiction in the system, but changing out springs is a lot faster.

Felix2010
2011.02.09, 02:25 AM
I actually am all confused right now with rear-suspension springs/damping as well:o

If I have a mod car running tri-shock with high torque+high rpms that is over-steering on-power most of the time, what rear TDS spring+dampening lube setup should I try?

- How hard should T-plate be for high-power mod motors(usually)? Softer is better, correct?
- How hard top-shock spring should I run with the (soft)T-plate? Then - Thick grease or Thin(er) grease for top-shock (For damping the T-plate+Top spring suspension action)?
- TDS Side Springs: How hard do I go for this hi-power motor? Super-soft or medium-hard? What grease do I use for this setup's side springs?

I keep getting mixed results whenever I try to test the various options I mentioned above. This is for "Medium" grip RCP track. No traction rolling problems. I just want maximum rear traction.

Right now the problem I have is I "drift" the rear-end on my 02 and 03 too much. I want my car to understeer mainly (esp on-power, for more control) and I can't figure out for max rear traction if I should go harder top spring? Softer? Add thicker grease to a soft top spring, or go thinner? Or should I go harder on T-plate and softer on topshock and side shocks? Or go softer(softest) T-plate and then go harder on top shock spring and harder on side-shock springs?

I'm glad someone started this thread, I am lost:o Just too confused and now nothing makes sense to me...:(

Digitalis West
2011.02.09, 04:39 AM
It is all a bit convoluted, a little hard to explain and completely impossible to make specific reccomendations without seeing you and the car in person... if you want a starting point, look at one of the setups people have posted after placing at an event. It will not exactly match your track or driving style but it is a good place to start. Getting a little help from someone experienced at your track is the best way to progress from there.

In some attempt to explain... generally, the softer the suspension, the more grip you will have. Softer tires, softer spring rate, softer damping all increase grip. Spring rates too soft and the suspension will bottom causing abrupt changes in handling. Damping too soft and the car will hop or chatter over bumps. Too much grip and the car will traction roll.

Springs on the DDS allow you to have different effective spring rates fore-aft and side-side. Stiff spring on bottom, soft on top increases the fore-aft spring rate without affecting side-side rate. Soft spring on bottom, stiff on top decreases fore-aft rate. Top shocks are similar except that you can change fore-aft damping independently from side-side damping and spring rate adjustments are a little more intuitive. T-Plates can also be used to do this. For example, Kyosho plates (thin and wide) are relatively stiff side-side for a given fore-aft rate, wheras PN plates (thick and narrow) are relatively soft side-side for a give fore-aft rate.


In general, softer fore-aft allows more traction under throttle, stiffer fore-aft prevents bottoming under accerlation with mod motors. Softer side-side allows more rear grip during cornering, stiffer side-side reduces body roll which can cause rubbing or traction rolls. Increased damping slows the reactions of the car making the car easier to drive and less sensitive to bumps. Softer damping speeds the reactions of the car improving transitions.

Where it gets really tricky is that changes in the rear also affect the front. Anything you do at one end of the car will have the opposite effect at the opposite end of the car. Softening the rear will not only increase rear grip, but also decrease front grip. So, making a big change at the front, may necessitate making some changes at the rear.

Personally I like to start with really soft rear tires (Kyosho20 or PN6) and a relatively soft rear spring rates with relatively heavy fore-aft damping and relatively light side-side damping. I am not the smoothest driver on the throttle and the heavy fore aft damping make it less obvious. I stiffen the rear suspension until nothing is rubbing then I start working on the front. I find the softest front tires that do not traction roll with a moderate front spring rate and adjust the front springs until I get the balance I want... then I fine tune the rear... then I fine tune the front... then I keep going like that until I like it. Sometimes it works.... sometimes it is a disaster.... more often than not, my poor driving is the real problem... but we don't talk about that....

color01
2011.02.09, 05:33 AM
Maximum rear traction for Mini-Z's is accomplished with a 1/12-scale type of rear suspension setup: very soft in roll, but stiff in bump to load the rear tires under power. So you would use the softest T-plate you can find, but add a top shock with a medium spring rate (TOO stiff is bad, the tires will skip over bumps) and stiffen the front springs (again TOO stiff is bad). If you have TDS, then you absolutely need the softest side springs possible + the softest T-plate you can find. Or you could use a gimbal mount to make the roll stiffness even softer. :) But then you would have to use a stiffer top shock to compensate for the lack of T-plate bump stiffness.

For damping oil, you will want to lean towards the thin side of the spectrum (side shocks and top shock!), that way the weight shifts to the back more quickly under power for more traction.

Setting up the car like this, however, will give you a major amount of push at speed, and possibly rear chatter as well if your damping oil is not thick enough. But you can make the car more aggressive from a baseline like this (in fact you will probably get aggravated at the amount of push, unless you're running 8deg slick front tires).

Felix2010
2011.02.09, 08:29 AM
Maximum rear traction for Mini-Z's is accomplished with a 1/12-scale type of rear suspension setup: very soft in roll, but stiff in bump to load the rear tires under power. So you would use the softest T-plate you can find, but add a top shock with a medium spring rate (TOO stiff is bad, the tires will skip over bumps) and stiffen the front springs (again TOO stiff is bad). If you have TDS, then you absolutely need the softest side springs possible + the softest T-plate you can find. Or you could use a gimbal mount to make the roll stiffness even softer. :) But then you would have to use a stiffer top shock to compensate for the lack of T-plate bump stiffness.

For damping oil, you will want to lean towards the thin side of the spectrum (side shocks and top shock!), that way the weight shifts to the back more quickly under power for more traction.

Setting up the car like this, however, will give you a major amount of push at speed, and possibly rear chatter as well if your damping oil is not thick enough. But you can make the car more aggressive from a baseline like this (in fact you will probably get aggravated at the amount of push, unless you're running 8deg slick front tires).

Thank you color0, you basically answered all my questions very concisely and in the easiest way I could understand them:D - I appreciate your posting and helping with this. Your Stock-Class 03 chassis w/GTR2008 body is actually a lot like what my chassis has parts-wise, so your comments are that much more helpful.:D

I don't need specific recommendations for my car so much, it's more of knowing in general what the suspension tuning break-down is for doing certain things to the rear suspension. Like going with thicker lube/more damping, going with softer t-plate or softer springs, etc, etc - What will this do to my rear traction?(Generally):) You've given me the answers I was looking for color0.

Push for me is good. It means power is getting put down onto the track. It usually is easier for me to start with a car that pushes and then tune-in more steering with softer front springs and/or grippier fr tires.

Yes I do follow Race-winning pilots' setups and try them, a lot... but it doesn't help me if I need to adjust something about the setup if I don't know what it is going to do to the car;) I was overloaded with options I guess.:confused:

Good thread:)

geeunit1014
2011.02.09, 12:13 PM
Felix10-

For the TDS I have found that too soft on the side springs will give the car too much steering (this happens in 1/12 as well). What happens is once you get into the corner (middle to out) the chassis rolls too much and the car will unload and make the rear come around. A stiffer spring prevents the roll and keeps the back end in check. I originally went very soft on the side shock springs thinking that same thing (softer = more traction), but the going a little stiffer really helps make the car more stable and driveable.

The top shock is forward traction, softer is more traction on power, stiffer is less. I am running a very soft t plate right now to let the TDS do most of the work. For lube/oil, for the top shock 30-40 weight oil (losi or ae oils) or around 500cst oil (xray, kyosho oils) should get you in the ballpark. I have been running the kyosho oil shock, and the silver unmarked spring I believe, which is the same as the green one IIRC(2 on a scale of 1-5, 5 = stiffest). The red is the softest I believe, and this one works well too.

For the side shocks, most of the reflex guys run the kyosho 15K grease on them, again too "soft" of a grease and the car can transfer weight too fast and break loose, too stiff and the rear just chatters, this grease seems to be the "just right" for the reflex shocks. If you have PN's they are probably different, I would look and try to find some setups and see what they are running.

Felix2010
2011.02.09, 02:43 PM
^ Thank you for your input also, sounds like I have a good idea of what I want to try (And the reason behind it makes sense too!):D

Any more info is appreciated and welcome:) I think the info on here is really going to help, not just myself but others too running Modified motors especially. Thanks again everyone:D

color01
2011.02.09, 03:33 PM
Kyosho 15k grease is also perfect for the PN TDS, actually. :) If you really need more traction you can drop to the 5k, but on a high-grip track you will risk rear chatter. On a low-grip track, 5k will be good and 15k will give you a consistent, but slightly loose rear end.

Gee: What's the side spring + T-plate combo you experienced this on? I'm curious as I've never been able to go that soft. I'm running 3racing AWD Black springs + PN G10 #3 T-plate, my car still doesn't roll a lot though so I can stand to go softer.

Also, for a little more controllability under Mod power you could consider one of PN's LSD spur gears. Again I'm not the biggest proponent of advertising new parts, but this one does work really well for keeping the rear end in line. It works pretty much like an LSD does in a real car, increasing the diff stiffness, which 1) makes the car push a little bit under power and 2) gives you more error margin should the rear end slip out. Whenever I use it I purposely set up the car to let the rear end slip out a little mid-corner, I get lots more steering that way but the consistency doesn't suffer at all. :)

mdowney
2011.02.09, 03:51 PM
I'm learning a TON from this thread! Thanks to all of you guys for taking the time to write this up. This is what I love about the Mini-Z community. You don't often find this level of effort in helping our other drivers with the larger scales. Great stuff!

geeunit1014
2011.02.09, 08:33 PM
Kyosho 15k grease is also perfect for the PN TDS, actually. :) If you really need more traction you can drop to the 5k, but on a high-grip track you will risk rear chatter. On a low-grip track, 5k will be good and 15k will give you a consistent, but slightly loose rear end.

Gee: What's the side spring + T-plate combo you experienced this on? I'm curious as I've never been able to go that soft. I'm running 3racing AWD Black springs + PN G10 #3 T-plate, my car still doesn't roll a lot though so I can stand to go softer.

Also, for a little more controllability under Mod power you could consider one of PN's LSD spur gears. Again I'm not the biggest proponent of advertising new parts, but this one does work really well for keeping the rear end in line. It works pretty much like an LSD does in a real car, increasing the diff stiffness, which 1) makes the car push a little bit under power and 2) gives you more error margin should the rear end slip out. Whenever I use it I purposely set up the car to let the rear end slip out a little mid-corner, I get lots more steering that way but the consistency doesn't suffer at all. :)

Im running this (http://www.reflexracing.net/proddetail.asp?prod=RX1148S) t-plate, and the Reflex TDS. With the black springs (softest), the rear rolls too much and will make the rear unload and comes around. Go to the medium spring (silver) and the rear stays in check. Happens in stock and mod. Ive seen that and the interesting thing is, Grabowski was saying at the GSS he runs that but put together backwards so you get that effect under braking:eek:

You may not see this if you have a lot of preload on the springs, that is a way to fine tune how much roll you get with the TDS.

color01
2011.02.10, 06:03 AM
That is stiff! :eek: The Reflex soft T-plate is worlds stiffer than the PN G10 #3 already, if I ran your setup at Kenon my rear end would be skipping all over the place. :p

I don't think it's a good idea to preload the springs more than a little bit, springs do fatigue after all and preloading them heavily against each other is bound to make them fatigue faster. I set mine to zero preload on both sides, then work out any tweak, then increase preload by 1/8 turn on each side to make sure the springs are seated fully, and that's about it. :)

geeunit1014
2011.02.10, 11:38 AM
That is stiff! :eek: The Reflex soft T-plate is worlds stiffer than the PN G10 #3 already, if I ran your setup at Kenon my rear end would be skipping all over the place. :p

I don't think it's a good idea to preload the springs more than a little bit, springs do fatigue after all and preloading them heavily against each other is bound to make them fatigue faster. I set mine to zero preload on both sides, then work out any tweak, then increase preload by 1/8 turn on each side to make sure the springs are seated fully, and that's about it. :)

Intresting. We seem to like at least a medium amount of preload. With no preload the car is a bit lazy and unresponsive and seems to wander a bit, with the preload its much better. Not sure how stiff your springs are, but if they are stiffer thats probably why you can run a softer t-bar and less preload.

CristianTabush
2011.02.10, 12:08 PM
[QUOTE=color01;405641]That is stiff! :eek: The Reflex soft T-plate is worlds stiffer than the PN G10 #3 already, if I ran your setup at Kenon my rear end would be skipping all over the place. :p

You guys are actually running very similar T bars. The PN # 3 ssg and Reflex Soft are very similar in rolling rigidity, but have different flexing characteristics. Our T Bar is more elastic, and just barely harder. The PN, being SSG, has more memory and does not return as well to center. This, with a tri-shock obviously is not a problem whatsoever. Fore and aft ours is a bit softer as well, which helps on bumpier surfaces.

Felix2010
2011.02.10, 12:32 PM
[QUOTE=color01;405641]That is stiff! :eek: The Reflex soft T-plate is worlds stiffer than the PN G10 #3 already, if I ran your setup at Kenon my rear end would be skipping all over the place. :p

You guys are actually running very similar T bars. The PN # 3 ssg and Reflex Soft are very similar in rolling rigidity, but have different flexing characteristics. Our T Bar is more elastic, and just barely harder. The PN, being SSG, has more memory and does not return as well to center. This, with a tri-shock obviously is not a problem whatsoever. Fore and aft ours is a bit softer as well, which helps on bumpier surfaces.

I've been running Kyosho FRP T-plates on my 03, experimenting between the soft/med/hard Kyosho FRP T-plates in the set. I'm going to go back to the Reflex G10 Soft T-plate so that I can get that more-responsive and elasticity back into the rear suspension. To everyone who posted Thank You all for posting what you guys run, I am getting back some grasp of how I should set up my car's rear suspension.
For whatever reason, setting up my front suspension(s) has always been a lot easier for me.

Keep the info rolling in guys.:) It's not that I completely understand everything being talked about but it helps that all you expert racers explain the reason behind your setups. This fact definitely is aiding in my understanding, ummm, I mean my "re-understanding" of rear suspension characteristics :D (I used to have a good idea of how I should run my rear suspension but it all became too confusing real fast this past year:o)

geeunit1014
2011.02.10, 01:50 PM
You guys are actually running very similar T bars. The PN # 3 ssg and Reflex Soft are very similar in rolling rigidity, but have different flexing characteristics. Our T Bar is more elastic, and just barely harder. The PN, being SSG, has more memory and does not return as well to center. This, with a tri-shock obviously is not a problem whatsoever. Fore and aft ours is a bit softer as well, which helps on bumpier surfaces.

I was gonna say, I didnt think that t-bar was that stiff! lol

Digitalis West
2011.02.10, 02:13 PM
I guess I should chime in with what I actually run. My current setup is Kyosho soft T-plate and PN Tri-shock. I removed the side springs and run Kyosho 5K on the side shocks for stock, Kyosho 15K for mod. I have the Kyosho oil top shock with AE 30wt and a soft spring for stock a stiffer spring for mod.

Originally I ran with the side springs but I found that it took too long to get the setup I wanted... and when it was wrong it was very wrong. This is a lot simpler to set up and definitely performs better than my driving skill.

LED
2011.02.10, 03:09 PM
Wow I didnt excpect this much reply.
Thank you all for the responses. I think i'm going to need to read this thread 5 times before I understand everything in it.

color01
2011.02.10, 05:55 PM
Cristian, I'm running the G10 #3 bar, which is an absolute limp noodle compared to anything made by anyone else. ;) To prove that to myself I just re-installed a Reflex soft T-plate I had with me -- the rear bump stiffness increases dramatically and roll stiffness increases a bit.

The 3racing AWD springs are very similar rate-wise to the ones included with the RR tri-shock (Cristian please correct me if this is incorrect). I chose the black ones out of the package, which again are limp noodles compared to most other tri-shock springs: they're softer than PN Blue springs, so I would venture a guess that they're somewhere between the Orange and Blue springs -- very soft.

With regards to my not achieving any good results with a stiffer rear suspension, it MAY be possible that the G10 #3 T-plate is just too soft, i.e. there's no solid pivot "point" for the rear pod to move around. Stiffening my main or side springs could possibly have a null effect, if the T-plate is so soft that the rear pod just kinda flops around instead of accurately guiding the rear wheels. I'm definitely not ruling out this possibility but it's difficult to test. I suppose I should test out my car again using a the Reflex soft T-plate just to be sure. :)

Digitalis, what you have is also a legitimate setup, just that you'll probably have more rear traction than all of us. :) The Kyosho T-plates are a little wider so the roll stiffness is usually higher for the amount of bump stiffness you get. Nothing wrong with taking out the side springs to compensate for that, it's just another tuning option one has with a TDS.

EMU
2011.02.10, 07:26 PM
Brian, maybe you should try the RR t-plate adapter with adjustable pivot with the G10 t-plate. I ran the #3 for a little while with the pivot in the rear most position and had decent results on the lowest grip and bumpiest RCP in the area where the RR t-plate had too much bump stiffness.

I am currently using the Qteq t-bar in most of my cars, and love its adjustability and performance :)

chad508
2011.02.10, 08:13 PM
emu. were you still able to run a kyosho oil shock with the qteq bar. i found i had to go back to the pn dual shock as the car would bottom with just the oil shock. i could not get a spring stiff enough to hold up the pod.

VAzRACER
2011.02.10, 08:41 PM
emu. were you still able to run a kyosho oil shock with the qteq bar. i found i had to go back to the pn dual shock as the car would bottom with just the oil shock. i could not get a spring stiff enough to hold up the pod.

When you fill the shock with oil make sure you have 50-75% rebound without the spring and then you should be ok. This worked for me.

chad508
2011.02.10, 08:57 PM
i may need to try a thicker oil in the shock. i was running the shock with as much rebound as i could get(well over 75%) and still no luck. i did get a new oil shock and i may have to try it out.

hrdrvr
2011.02.10, 09:26 PM
Chad, I've got some thicker shock oils sitting on my pit table. You are welcome to try any of them out. If you are running the Kyo 200, I've got some thing heavier.

chad508
2011.02.10, 09:45 PM
im currently running ae 35. not sure what that compares to

hrdrvr
2011.02.10, 09:51 PM
I think I've got a chart to show how it compares to the cst ratings somewhere. I've got some heavier ae too.

lfisminiz
2011.02.10, 10:16 PM
IF any of you guys have a chart or know where to find one to compare shock/damper oils, that would help. Some are in CST and so many others. Would be nice to be able to compare the different types.

mdowney
2011.02.11, 12:26 AM
IF any of you guys have a chart or know where to find one to compare shock/damper oils, that would help. Some are in CST and so many others. Would be nice to be able to compare the different types.

This is the best one that I've come across.
http://www.twf8.ws/php/tip/shock.html

geeunit1014
2011.02.11, 02:06 AM
im currently running ae 35. not sure what that compares to

AE 35 = 425cst ( the new ae bottles list the wt and cst). Im currently running AE 40, which is 500cst, at 50% rebound. I also have the "t-bar preload screw" (screw behind the t-bar going into the t-plate adaptor) out a bit which helps keep the ride height up (its kinda like preloading a spring), my car felt much better with the t-bar preload.

EMU
2011.02.11, 03:44 AM
The preload screw also gives a more defined pivot point for the t-plate. After trying it, I use it on all of my t-plate cars. It is especially helpful with the PN/ATM/KYO FRP t-plates to define the pivot point.

color01
2011.02.11, 08:03 AM
Just tried it out -- I stuck an M2x10mm grub screw into the rearmost original T-plate mounting hole before installing the G10 #3 T-plate. On the bench, it feels great! The pivot point is definitely much better defined and surprisingly it only took 4 tries to set properly. Hopefully I can track test it soon, thanks for the tip! :) Can't believe I never thought of it though, lol... it's Dave's MRCG setup!

LED
2011.02.12, 04:26 PM
Springs on the DDS allow you to have different effective spring rates fore-aft and side-side. Stiff spring on bottom, soft on top increases the fore-aft spring rate without affecting side-side rate. Soft spring on bottom, stiff on top decreases fore-aft rate.

I'm having trouble understanding this.
I think I understand why it would affect the fore aft, but I dont understand why it doenst affect the side to side at the same time.
Can anyone explain ?

color01
2011.02.12, 06:37 PM
It could be that the total spring tension on the plates is the same, therefore side-to-side is not as affected as fore-aft damping. I don't think this is strictly true, but approximately so as the disk damper post always moves on an arc (whether fore-aft or side-to-side) so you will always register little changes. I've never thought about it that way, but interesting concept. :) Back when I ran a disk damper I would usually put the stiffer spring on the bottom by default for more on-power traction (back in the days of Inside Line ICE Racing... :D).

Digitalis West
2011.02.13, 01:21 AM
The reason DDS spring rates and preload affect the fore aft rate and not the side side rate is that the virtual pivot point of the t-plate is forward of the damper post and centered between the wheels. This means that there is a moment arm between the DDS and the virtual pivot fore aft but no moment arm side to side. You can see this in action when the suspension is compressed fore aft, the disks move lower on the damper post. Likewise when the lower spring rate and preload are increased the rear of the car will ride higher.

Now once the suspension tilts side to side a moment arm is created between the virtual pivot and the damper post because the post is not in the same plane as the virtual pivot. However this effect is relatively small within normal travel for the suspension.

Of course, both gimbal systems on the market have the fore aft pivot very close to the damper post and the moment arm with a gimbal is near zero fore aft and side to side.

LED
2011.02.13, 06:00 AM
The reason DDS spring rates and preload affect the fore aft rate and not the side side rate is that ...

Thank you, I totaly understand that part now.

I got another question. In my club we race stock races. Now stock here is not the same as in the US.
Stock here allowed hop-ups:
ball bearings
H-plate
kyosho top oil shock
0 alu caster bar
0 alu camber knuckles
toe in bar
kyosho stock motor
Thats it.

As you can see we have no means to provide damping on the rear end. This poses a problem for me because the back tends to oversteer when coming out of the corner and putting down the throttle. So if I understand this thread correctly I need to provide damping on the rear end to stop the oversteering. Because I cannot provide damping I think I need an H-plate with stiffer side to side resistance with the same amount of front aft to not affect grip when going on throttle.
Is this correct ?

color01
2011.02.13, 07:56 AM
Under a situation like that, I believe it's OK to skirt the rules a little:

What you can do is take advantage of the leverage the damper post gives you. Remove your Kyosho oil shock, and pop out the steel balls; now coat these balls in some industrial-strength THICK grease, and coat the inside of the shock ends (where the balls would go) in the grease as well.

Pop the balls back into the shock ends, wipe off the excess grease (definitely leave enough there though!) and reinstall the oil shock into the car. You'll notice that you have at least some side-to-side damping now, which will put you light-years ahead of any other car running with just the raw oil shock for damping. The thicker grease you can find the better, as you might imagine, we're taking advantage of an extremely small point of friction. This method is crude, it doesn't last a very long time, but if you REALLY want that side damping, here's how you can do it without anyone else noticing in the pits. ;)

dvsstrike
2011.02.13, 09:35 AM
no runs the qtec plates? if you run them you can have the tds do all the lateral dampning and the plate do the fore and aft movement and run the top shock softer than normal. I got tired of running tplate to find the flex I needed. The qtec plate does everything I need and found is the most consistant for me on my track.

geeunit1014
2011.02.13, 01:16 PM
no runs the qtec plates? if you run them you can have the tds do all the lateral dampning and the plate do the fore and aft movement and run the top shock softer than normal. I got tired of running tplate to find the flex I needed. The qtec plate does everything I need and found is the most consistant for me on my track.

I just tried one last night, the initial results are very promising :D Versus the Reflex soft t-plate, it yielded more steering and more forward traction, plus the ability to tune on the fly.

chad508
2011.02.13, 02:40 PM
i still cant get the qteq plate to work with a kyosho oil shock. i have the shock set to full rebound and with the body on it will not rebound the pod, it just bottoms out when compressed and just stays there. i can only get it to work with the pn dual shock. i may just have to see what you guys are doing that i am not when i get to the MD race in a couple weeks.

LED
2011.02.13, 02:41 PM
Wich one are you talking about?
Because if doesnt look like a standard plate I cant use it :p

EMU
2011.02.13, 03:10 PM
Chad, what spring are you using?

geeunit1014
2011.02.13, 03:32 PM
i still cant get the qteq plate to work with a kyosho oil shock. i have the shock set to full rebound and with the body on it will not rebound the pod, it just bottoms out when compressed and just stays there. i can only get it to work with the pn dual shock. i may just have to see what you guys are doing that i am not when i get to the MD race in a couple weeks.

I had the same issue initially when I put the q-teq plate on, it turned out I had an rm spring on it, which are slightly shorter than the mm springs. I put an mm spring on and it was good.

dvsstrike
2011.02.13, 04:53 PM
Led
the plate in questions is for the mr03 only. i am sorry tothrow it in the mix of all the complicated information. right now I think miniz's are turning into 1/10 touring cars overly complex toys to run

Digitalis West
2011.02.13, 08:35 PM
LED, you can try a "dual T plate" like this to increase side side rate while maintaining a soft fore aft rate.

http://shop.tinyrc.com/product.php?productid=19784&cat=366&page=2

chad508
2011.02.13, 08:39 PM
Chad, what spring are you using?
currently i was using the stock silver spring but i have tried the yellow with no luck. i have heard of some putting a spring on the shaft as well. has anyone tried this. i just cant seen to get a spring with enough tension to push the pod back.

lfisminiz
2011.02.13, 09:21 PM
I just tried one last night, the initial results are very promising :D Versus the Reflex soft t-plate, it yielded more steering and more forward traction, plus the ability to tune on the fly.

Hey Mike,
Would you say since this T-bar has the teek screws....would you still use the side shocks?

geeunit1014
2011.02.13, 09:55 PM
Hey Mike,
Would you say since this T-bar has the teek screws....would you still use the side shocks?

I assume you mean to tweak the car, since you still need the side shocks on the car ;) I would rather use the tweak screws to tweak it so that way the damping can be exactly the same left to right. You can also us the tweak screws to make an adjustment on the fly during warmup laps, 1/4 turn makes a noticable difference :)

lfisminiz
2011.02.13, 10:10 PM
I assume you mean to tweak the car, since you still need the side shocks on the car ;) I would rather use the tweak screws to tweak it so that way the damping can be exactly the same left to right. You can also us the tweak screws to make an adjustment on the fly during warmup laps, 1/4 turn makes a noticable difference :)

So your trying it without the side shocks? Right now i dont have side shocks on because of the tweek screws. Didnt know if i should do it this way or with side shocks and tweek screws set at nuetral.......thanks.

geeunit1014
2011.02.13, 10:46 PM
So your trying it without the side shocks? Right now i dont have side shocks on because of the tweek screws. Didnt know if i should do it this way or with side shocks and tweek screws set at nuetral.......thanks.

No, I still have the side shocks on, you need them for most of the side to side damping (I couldnt imagine not having them, there would be so much roll :eek:) I would imagine without the side shocks and the preload screws cranked the car would skip around a lot since there is no side to side damping and the t-plate now has to be "stiff" enough to prevent roll.

I dont have a lot of time on the t-bar yet, but what I was doing with it was to make slight adjustments. I started with the screws all the way out, and tightened them progressively to fine tune the car. It would be kind of like adjusting preload on the side shocks, its a small change, but noticeable, but you can do it on the fly quickly :)

lfisminiz
2011.02.13, 10:50 PM
Thanks, Mike.

LED
2011.02.14, 10:23 AM
LED, you can try a "dual T plate" like this to increase side side rate while maintaining a soft fore aft rate.

http://shop.tinyrc.com/product.php?productid=19784&cat=366&page=2

Thank you. I will