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View Full Version : a more realistic race category?


chucelli
2011.03.31, 11:23 AM
I'm still pretty new to the mini-z scene, but it seems that in all the races I've seen and attended, tires choices/combinations is something that is not only allowed, but necessary to even begin to be competitive in this type of racing. From what I've gathered so far, most, if not all choose a very soft compound in the rear (20d) and a harder (30d) compound in the front. IME, this leads to a car who's handling characteristics range from massive understeer to mild understeer, depending on other setup variables like T plates, front springs, wheelbase, etc...
During driving, these cars rarely if ever spin out. This leads to handling characteristics very different than that of a real RWD race car. It seems that there are no consequences to bad throttle input, which results in a relatively safe driving experience. Too much and the car will only push, too little, just means you will go slower. In real track driving, at least from my experience, assessing the amount of rear traction is always in play, since too much throttle around a tight turn can cause you to spin out into the wall and too little throttle or abrupt off-throttle actions around a high speed sweeping turn can also cause your rear to slide out (even worse than first situation). The importance of these variables introduce a certain awareness during cornering that makes things very intense. The same can't be said of mini-z racing at least from what I've seen.
If mandatory tire choices were to be instituted, say 30s all the way around (on RCP), that would definitely make for a more realistic driving experience. This IMO would give car set-ups more emphasis as it is in real cars. This would also increase the number of factors to pay attention to when racing. Overall speed will go down no-doubt, but that would hold true for everyone, and only the most skilled will be able to drive within that fine line.
Is this just not practical? or it's just that most racers prefer the current way?

Scrapper
2011.03.31, 11:57 AM
I think on 2wd the cars spin out very easily

geeunit1014
2011.03.31, 01:01 PM
The biggest difference between most real cars and most Mini-Z's, is that most real cars posses enough HP to overwhelm the available traction. If all you ever do is run stock Mini-Z, you will never encounter that situation. In running mod, you can, and it does require a good driver to keep the back end in check.

Ever see a GTC or GT3 ALMS car? Those are sports cars (in some cases with less HP than the streetgoing version, a la the corvettes), and they are never really "tail happy" as one would say, or in comparison to something like an F1 car (where Adrian Sutil nearly demolished his car and himself this past weekend in Australia during qualifying when he spun out coming onto the main straight.)

Tires are tires, and racers will always want the grippiest ones. If you showed up to say an autocross with econo car tires on, nobody would wonder why you werent up to pace ;)

briankstan
2011.03.31, 01:54 PM
where Adrian Sutil nearly demolished his car and himself this past weekend in Australia during qualifying when he spun out coming onto the main straight.

that was an amazing save. I couldn't beleive he didn't hit anything/one.:eek:

cowboysir
2011.03.31, 03:27 PM
our club holds spec class tire races...it makes very interesting 70turn motor racing.

submit your idea to your club and see what happens.;)

geeunit1014
2011.03.31, 04:57 PM
that was an amazing save. I couldn't beleive he didn't hit anything/one.:eek:

I know, im sure his team was thankful he kept it out of that inside wall :eek:

Mike Keely
2011.03.31, 05:56 PM
I know, im sure his team was thankful he kept it out of that inside wall :eek:

I bet the owner even happier$$$$

iruninsoga
2011.04.01, 04:41 AM
Driving an RC car is probably too different from driving a real car for a low grip regulation tire class to be practical. Although I'm sure that there is no shortage of drivers that could handle it, I think it would take away a little too much of the enjoyment. You only have visible feedback and by the time you can visually notice one end of the car "going," the angle is already quite severe. I am amazed that RC cars, mini-z cars in particular, can recover so well. In an actual car the driver would have backed off well before letting the car slide so far. But there is all the physical feedback that makes car control possible so it can be done at every corner on every lap. I just don't think it's possible to drive an RC that way.

When F1 went to grooved tires the drivers were quite vocal of their dislike of the lack of grip. The purpose however was to create a better spectacle even at the expense of driver enjoyment. I think RC racing is more biased toward driver enjoyment as opposed to fan enjoyment.

Action B
2011.04.01, 09:11 AM
Driving an RC car is probably too different from driving a real car for a low grip regulation tire class to be practical. Although I'm sure that there is no shortage of drivers that could handle it, I think it would take away a little too much of the enjoyment. You only have visible feedback and by the time you can visually notice one end of the car "going," the angle is already quite severe. I am amazed that RC cars, mini-z cars in particular, can recover so well. In an actual car the driver would have backed off well before letting the car slide so far. But there is all the physical feedback that makes car control possible so it can be done at every corner on every lap. I just don't think it's possible to drive an RC that way.

When F1 went to grooved tires the drivers were quite vocal of their dislike of the lack of grip. The purpose however was to create a better spectacle even at the expense of driver enjoyment. I think RC racing is more biased toward driver enjoyment as opposed to fan enjoyment.

Great points here.

The physics are also substantially different so it would be really hard to mimic real life physics. We would have to limit the cars to around 6 to 7 mph to have a scale speed of around 175-200 and still the acceleration would be so much more than the real thing scale considered.

chucelli
2011.04.01, 10:33 AM
The biggest difference between most real cars and most Mini-Z's, is that most real cars posses enough HP to overwhelm the available traction. If all you ever do is run stock Mini-Z, you will never encounter that situation. In running mod, you can, and it does require a good driver to keep the back end in check.

Perhaps that's why I haven't experienced this in stock 70t racing. However, any faster, most of the skill required becomes anticipation because you are already going too fast to make true real-time adjustments. I guess what I am trying to say is, does it make it less enjoyable for most if the overall speed and traction was reduced to allow for a different set of skills? I agree that feedback on mini-z is visual, but I've found that with practice, you do learn to interpret that feedback much like the seat of the pants feel in a real car. Of course it will never be the same, but closer.
I would make the spec class tire suggestion to my local club, but wanted to get some opinions from the more experienced drivers as to whether this is totally impractical. I know I personally prefer the challenge of happy tail, but not too much speed that I can't make corrections mid turn.
Perhaps it's not practical or possible as iruninsoga mentioned...

cowboysir
2011.04.01, 10:44 AM
Its a feasible concept for both RWD and AWD racing and it works well in our club.

What we do is email around to members and tell them that the spec tire race is coming up. The shopper (or LHS in your case) gets orders from members who can make the event for the spec tire choice (if they dont already have them) and on the day of event get the handout tires.

we've done this with all sorts of tire choices both medium and high grip choices and its fun. High grip choices usually wind up with difficult late day driving because the wear rate means the track conditions and tire compounds dont always stay in sync and medium to hard wear tires make for very different driving styles and promote very careful driving.

all in all, the spec tire day in conjunction with a spec motor makes for very close racing in our field of competitors.

iruninsoga
2011.04.01, 11:22 AM
If you can get enough racers to agree I do think a low grip class would be doable, but I think it would be hard to convince people.

I've done something like that informally with track friends trying to make use of all the wide 30 and 40 degree tires we get with autoscale bodies. We used Tiki Tiki cars set to unlimited (250 actually) boost to make them drivable. 70% power in the infield and boost on the straight. It was very challenging but fun nonetheless. If it were a real race though I think it might be too frustrating.

If you can gather enough people who can enjoy slow and difficult driving then it could be good competition. But I have a feeling that the more competitive drivers would still set their cars up to understeer and eliminate the oversteer challenge.

Beatles
2011.04.01, 01:11 PM
ive had practice racing with oversteer and its quite fun. theres nothing more fun than being halfway through a corner and gunning it to see the rear end kick out and keep the drift!

warrenC7432
2012.09.05, 09:56 AM
For driving, all you need is master card prepaid (https://www.nextpay.com/prepaid_debitcard_solutions.php) brain in your head and power in your car. But of course you can not compare an RC car with a real car, too much power difference...
and of course there will be driving difference too...

arch2b
2012.09.05, 12:30 PM
i like the idea personally but in my opinion, competitive racing has become increasingly unrealistic. it's always been geared toward speed, and more speed in the u.s. Look at how much people hack off their cars these days as an example. until recently racing has been dominated at the top by mostly non descript pan style cars. i think racing is trending toward larger scale pan/wedges vs. realistic classes and heaven forbid, a car with most of it's bumper still attached.

there is a class for all though, you just have to find it or start it. find something that fits your style and stick with it. i'm still trying to push stock class racing in my area but it's an uphill battle.

color01
2012.09.05, 11:53 PM
Mini-Z is going to be an Audi R8 LMS spec race this coming year lol... and to boot, the R8 needs no bumper modification to be competitive. :)

The big deal with Mini-Z is that the power/weight ratio is too ridiculous for us to drive on slow enough and narrow enough tracks to be realistic. Mod cars on narrow tracks is realistic IMO, you have to be conservative because you can spin the tires and put the car into the wall, and also you need to actually brake (not just weight-shift) before entering corners. But can many people accomplish this feat at once while battling each other? A little too difficult IMO. Taking the fun out of Mini-Z racing is way worse than not having realism.