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rajiex
2011.04.21, 08:44 PM
Understeer is much better than oversteer.. I want to know will adding camber help stop a car being pushy. I tried softer rears, toe out, different tires.
In general doesnt a softer front and stiffer rear eliminate push and cause oversteer?

color01
2011.04.21, 09:06 PM
Neutral feel is achieved by a combination of ALL your setup parameters, including the radio and ICS.

Adding camber, in general, will increase your high speed steering and reduce low speed steering. The effect is very weak though because of the minimal amount that these cars actually roll in turns, so I would make understeer/oversteer adjustments using tires, springs/T-plate, and ICS settings. Everything else is just fine tuning.

Felix2010
2011.04.21, 09:14 PM
Neutral feel is achieved by a combination of ALL your setup parameters, including the radio and ICS.

Adding camber, in general, will increase your high speed steering and reduce low speed steering. The effect is very weak though because of the minimal amount that these cars actually roll in turns, so I would make understeer/oversteer adjustments using tires, springs/T-plate, and ICS settings. Everything else is just fine tuning.

Basically, without messing with the rear suspension on a car like T-plate and stuff (I have my car nice n' grippy where I want it) - but I would also like a more "Neutral" driving feel, "Easier to drive" is what I would call it :D

Add camber - After that, without adding softer/more-grip tires (which might cause more sensitivity due to better traction, right?) - What else can you do to make a car easier to drive and handle more neutral? Toe-In or Toe-Out? What ICS settings wuld you adjust to not sacrifice response speed?
Thanks in advance, sorry to highjack:o:)

EMU
2011.04.21, 11:41 PM
Neutral, is between oversteer and understeer... so, basically you want the car not to understeer and not oversteer.

I typically set up my cars to be very easy to drive, that way I can push them harder than a setup that is a little more edgy. I find this as being a neutral setup.

Front spring stiffness; In general, as the spring softens, the car will roll more, and be less responsive to the input given until the spring has absorbed the load or bottomed out. A stiffer spring will not roll as far, but give a more immediate reaction to input. I typically use a med-med hard front spring. I find this to give me a consistent corner entrance, mid corner and exit. The car does not roll quite as much, allowing me a little more ability to push the car harder through the corner. I typically want to use as slightly harder front spring than rear. Using a slightly harder front and rear spring than most of the people that I race with I feel allows me to get away with using a harder front tire, which makes the car feel more neutral, to me at least.

Tires; play a big part in the balance of the car. I typically use ATM 40d slicks, PN X15, or Kyosho 30d LM or radial in order of what I see their grip level at most tracks that I have driven on. These are basically the only tires that I use on the front of my cars on RCP.

Differential settings play a large roll in how the cars balance is as well. A tighter differential will have the car steer less into the corner off throttle, and rotate a little more as it exits on throttle, but you will get a better drive out of the corner, permitting that you have enough grip. A looser differential will steer more off throttle as you enter, but push a little as you exit due to the differential slipping. I try not to let the differential slip, as that is power lost.

T-plate lateral stiffness; a softer t-plate will give you more entrance steering, and less on throttle steering. A harder t-plate will give you less entrance steering and more on throttle steering.

T-plate longitudinal stiffness; as the stiffness increases, the amount of power that can be put down in the corners without oversteering decreases. If the car or suspension bottoms out, grip is immediately lost. if the t-plate is too soft, the car will not rotate enough on throttle.

If your overall suspension stiffness is too soft, the car will feel a little more floaty and react a little slower to input, which for me is a bad thing.

Camber; adjust for optimum tire wear (tires wear flat). too much camber will reduce turn in, too little camber will have aggressive turn in with reduced mid corner/exit. This is at extreme levels. a neutral car should have 1-2d camber.

Caster; as caster increases, turn in decreases, and corner exit increases. The car will also track straighter.

Felix2010
2011.04.22, 12:29 AM
Thank you for the detailed reply EMU, I am starting to get it...:) I will try a few of your suggestions, the culprit for me is front spring I believe now.... I went soft to give very steady, floaty (NEUTRAL) steering input, but by going too soft I have killed the response completely... I need to find a happy medium... And boy I could go for a Happy Ending... :D But anyway, yeah, the differential action I believe Ineed to make tighter in order to reduce corner turn-i that extra bit when I go one-two harder on the front springs, and then I should have me a neutral car to my liking... The diff tip was especially one that I was missing:o Much obliged my friend! Thanks:D

LED
2011.04.25, 04:35 PM
just a post to find that great piece of EMU advice again when i have the time toread it 5 times :)

EMU
2011.04.25, 05:05 PM
just a post to find that great piece of EMU advice again when i have the time toread it 5 times :)

Graag dank :) Glad I could help.

Felix2010
2011.04.26, 10:49 PM
EMU - I just re-read your post where you listed all the tips, and man, what a great post!

I typically set up my cars to be very easy to drive, that way I can push them harder than a setup that is a little more edgy. I find this as being a neutral setup.

Exactly. I am Mr. Outlaw, and anything goes at my track... So for a TSM/LL3 Industries Long-Arm Hand Pattern-Wound 21t, I'm looking for just the right balance of steering - Not over-steering, not under-steer either. I think in addition to adding camber, and tightening my diff's action, I will add front caster via RR's Adjustable Front Upper Alm. Tower bar. Back in 2008 at the Atomic West-Coast Championships, CT won Modified running 94mm Vodaphone CLK with a setup consisting of:
FRONT
> Kyosho YELLOW MR02 front springs;
> 3 degree camber knuckles;
> 1 degree caster (PN Tower bar);
> Atomic AWD 40 degree front tires

REAR
> CHILI motor (NICE!!! :D);
> Atomic soft T-plate and V3 ATM pod, Running 94mm WB;
> Atomic top shock with black spring;
> DDS with top&bott. PN-RED springs;
> Reflex SSG rear tires

The front sounds like he set this car up to eliminate oversteer. I run 98mm WB 98% of the time though; How could I adjust the above specs to mirror CT's car but in 98mm WB instead of 94mm? Also, for a body let's say I'm running Enzo, '08 GT-R Super-GT, McLaren Long-Tail, or similarly Low&Wide style body?

Thanks EMU (and others) in advance :D I appreciate the time you take to give us all this setup info.:)

blt456
2011.04.26, 11:27 PM
I don't think there is a magic setup. All tracks are different so one setup could work at a high grip track but be loose at a medium grip track.

For a medium grip track with a few bumps, I use reflex front suspension with white lowdown springs, 0 camber, 2caster and pn8 slicks on 20mm atm dish rims. In the rear I run pn tds (red main spring, blue sides) with a #4 g10 tplate and kyosho 20 slicks. Lexus sc430 1n 2w

I typically run the pn 33/32 turn motors or my own hand wounds (33 turns). Both have lots of torque but mine typically have a little more speed. I don't know anyone who runs lower than 32t and 21t sound crazy lol...I don't know how anyone could even get a motor to spool up that quick and have enough torque..plus batteries must not last too long. :confused:

color01
2011.04.27, 02:38 AM
FRONT
> Kyosho YELLOW MR02 front springs;
> 3 degree camber knuckles;
> 1 degree caster (PN Tower bar);
> Atomic AWD 40 degree front tires

REAR
> CHILI motor (NICE!!! :D);
> Atomic soft T-plate and V3 ATM pod, Running 94mm WB;
> Atomic top shock with black spring;
> DDS with top&bott. PN-RED springs;
> Reflex SSG rear tires
So looking at this, I see a front setup primarily concerned with avoiding traction roll. On an MR02 the front springs are the only thing limiting chassis roll, so Yellows are the way to go. Camber is similarly set to avoid letting the outside wall of the tires dig into the track, so even if it reduces low-speed steering, at least high speed steering and stability will be good. Caster would be for high-speed stability, and the AWD 40 tires have a decently stiff sidewall and enough grip to generate both turn-in and corner speed.

In the rear, the soft T-plate, low damping, and SSG's are for maximum rear traction, and CT either used the black spring just to set preload or to add a little corner speed to the setup. Either way, back in 2008, Mini-Z setup theory was nowhere nearly as sophisticated as it is now, so on an 03 it would be irrelevant to try and "mirror" CT's MR02 Mod setup that's three years outdated.

On the MR03, the front suspension has innate camber gain HOWEVER it varies with the height of the tower bar and the knuckles. You can use the same tire combo as CT (AWD 40/SSG) but I would suggest using a high roll center to counteract chassis roll rather than stiff springs. I would personally space the tower bar up (0.4mm or so?) to raise the roll center, then use a medium-soft to medium spring -- for PN springs that would be in the Blue or Red range, adjust accordingly for other brands. Don't spring too stiffly for a low and wide body unless it's very heavy, because you need it to roll a little bit to generate grip. Use a 2 degree camber arm and you'll have about 1.5-2deg static camber, which is more than enough for the MR03 to avoid digging a tire into the track, and that should save you from traction rolling. I personally think the ideal caster for the MR03 is 2 degrees, but you may find 4deg more suitable. Since you have the Reflex tower you should definitely try both, one will dive into corners faster and one will come out with more steering.

The disk damper system is, IMO, completely obsolete for Mod cars. You're much better off with a soft T-plate/tri-shock combo or a gimbal/tri-shock combo (Qteq T-plate is similar to a gimbal). That will give you the traction you need but at the same time allowing you to address other issues such as rear steer and spring linearity, things that the T-plate/DPS combo just can't do. A well-tuned tri-shock setup will put you worlds ahead of CT's 2008 setup already. The rest is just fine-tuning the stiffnesses to put the power down most effectively. That will depend both on your power and your downforce -- for low, wide, bodies with lots of downforce in the rear you're probably going to want a medium to stiff top spring, lest the car bottoms out and you lose grip entirely. The stiffer spring also gives you an instant of more grip at throttle tip-in, improving consistency and at the same time increasing on-power steering. Go relatively soft on the side springs, since this car is low and wide you don't want to bother too much with reducing roll, or your rear end will start to skip over the RCP and that's not how to put down the power.

94mm vs. 98mm depends on how much stability you need. Since you're set on 98mm then as long as you have sufficient rear traction, there really isn't anything else to worry about. If you have enough traction with your stickiest tires then 98mm is more stable than 94, and thus easier to drive Mod with. Btw most good MR03 setups transition just fine between 94mm and 98mm. I don't change a thing on my suspension between 94mm and 98mm other than lowering the tri-shock to fit under the GT-R (I know, this softens the effective spring rate, but only slightly).

The rest of the game is tires and that will be up to your track. Seems like one of the current "hot setups" is PN 15 X-Pattern or PN 8 Slick in front, and PN 6 Slick or Radial in the rear. This combo puts the power down and turns in well without overheating the tires or traction rolling (much...), but the results will depend on your individual track.

blt456
2011.04.27, 03:00 AM
+1 on the TDS. In 2010 I ran the PN tds (red top blue sides) and a 32t motor. 10-53 ratio. track the same size as 2010 PN regional layout but a lot more turns..with a 32t motor and r1 750's the tds was able to control all the power and lay it down to the ground. top disk w/ green spring

I have been running the disk damper on my car for the past few months. My car is ok, but it's good enough....;)

I have already ordered the PN tds again and the new reflex mount. Honestly the TDS is the way to go for rear suspension. You can fine tune rear traction with springs and it's nice because when I added the tds, I got more steering in the front along with the rear traction (unexpected).

herman
2011.04.27, 05:59 AM
another great read... great tips... :D

Felix2010
2011.04.27, 06:07 AM
Brian, thank you for taking the time to write-up such a detailed setup tutorial for me. I appreciate it bro!:D I will put your tips to good use ASAP:cool: Thank you also to BLT456 for your setup advice. I appreciate everyone's help, sometimes things become complicated for me where the answer is right there but I can't see the forest through the trees if you know what I mean :)

Take Care,
-LL3