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thestug
2011.07.06, 12:41 PM
I have been having issues with my AWD. It steers to the left on throttle. I have the blue/grey chassis. I have checked bearings, rebuilt diffs, checked wheel nut tension, new wheels and tires, and adding weight to balance out the chassis. It also seems that the torque steer gets worse as the motor heats up. It it possible that the chassis is warped by heat? I dont really have any idea what could be causing it. Is there a way to use shims to cause it to torque steer in the other direction, thus balancing it out. I will note that the car tracks straight when maintaining a constant speed. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

The Stug

greenepa76
2011.07.06, 01:04 PM
You seem to have listed everything. On my AWD, I noticed what you're describing when the axle play was more on one side than the other. I ended up shimming the backside of the wheels. I checked everything you've checked before also, but shimming the axle play helped. I was going to mention diffs, but you've got that covered. Maybe check the diff shimming? Worn diff outdrive hubs? Worn dogbones? Doesn't sound like your chassis is tweaked.

PadrinoNY
2011.07.06, 01:11 PM
In my personal experience tourque steer is being created from the shaft. If you look at most 10 scale forums and ask a few questions or do some searches you'll discover that most of them are belt drive because of the shaft driven cars tourque steer. I have found out thru some tuning that tightening the front ball diff(or putting thicker grease/lube on the gear diff) and loosing the rear ball diff(or putting lighter grease/lube on the gear diff) would help greatly reduce the tourque steer but never eliminate it. Now as far as it getting greater when the motor is getting hot is probably the motor outputing more tourque as it is getting hot. Again this is based on my personal experience with the MA010......

PadrinoNY
2011.07.06, 01:14 PM
On another note I always run the Kyosho Ti64 shafts on all my AWD's unless the Atomic Ti hollow shaft is available locally. The lighter weight shaft doesn't put too much strain on the drivetrain also reducing the torque steer....

blt456
2011.07.06, 01:26 PM
Reflex racing sells titanium and aluminum drive shafts too.

thestug
2011.07.06, 02:42 PM
You seem to have listed everything. On my AWD, I noticed what you're describing when the axle play was more on one side than the other. I ended up shimming the backside of the wheels. I checked everything you've checked before also, but shimming the axle play helped. I was going to mention diffs, but you've got that covered. Maybe check the diff shimming? Worn diff outdrive hubs? Worn dogbones? Doesn't sound like your chassis is tweaked.

I'm still not exactly sure what you mean by axle play. Do you mean like sliding in and out of the bearing or like axle wobble? Where do you get shims for this? My diffs are new kyosho ball diff with ceramic balls int the front and rear. I wet sanded the diff plates with 2000 grit before installing them. I used atomic plastic ball diff before I switched to kyosho. They are the smoothest diffs I have ever used by far. I think the diffs might be shimmed just a little bit to tight against the gear, but I'm not exactly sure how this would affect torque steer. I will check my universal shafts to see if they are worn. How do I check for wear?

thestug
2011.07.06, 02:46 PM
In my personal experience tourque steer is being created from the shaft. If you look at most 10 scale forums and ask a few questions or do some searches you'll discover that most of them are belt drive because of the shaft driven cars tourque steer. I have found out thru some tuning that tightening the front ball diff(or putting thicker grease/lube on the gear diff) and loosing the rear ball diff(or putting lighter grease/lube on the gear diff) would help greatly reduce the tourque steer but never eliminate it. Now as far as it getting greater when the motor is getting hot is probably the motor outputing more tourque as it is getting hot. Again this is based on my personal experience with the MA010......

Hmm... I have never thought of this. I have tried some reflex racing titanium shafts, but they were not as true as the stock shaft. I run the stock shaft only because everything else I have tried has caused binding in the shaft or caused bad gear mesh. I have not tried the atomic or the kyosho titanium shafts. I still dont understand how the shaft would cause torque steer though.:confused:

PadrinoNY
2011.07.06, 03:40 PM
Hmm... I have never thought of this. I have tried some reflex racing titanium shafts, but they were not as true as the stock shaft. I run the stock shaft only because everything else I have tried has caused binding in the shaft or caused bad gear mesh. I have not tried the atomic or the kyosho titanium shafts. I still dont understand how the shaft would cause torque steer though.:confused:

The shaft is stiff it has no play. When you apply power it's almost like direct drive making the chassis shift to one side when trying to catch grip in acceleration. Watch a 1/4 mile drag race when the cars go up in a wheelie you will notice almost every car torques to one side and thats due to possie traction torque steer. Belt drive AWD sedans are driven directly on the diff, shaft driven relies on a pinion on a shaft. Thus given you almost a possie traction on the rear making the front pull to one side..... I hope this helps....

Bodom
2011.07.07, 03:08 PM
I bet on suspension/chassis tweak.
Have you tried lifting the front and rear of the chassis to see if both left and right tire lifts and then touches the ground simultaneously?

thestug
2011.07.07, 04:41 PM
I bet on suspension/chassis tweak.
Have you tried lifting the front and rear of the chassis to see if both left and right tire lifts and then touches the ground simultaneously?

It is pretty close. Its pretty hard to tell though, because the car is so light its easy to lift it completly off the ground too fast.

blt456
2011.07.07, 05:45 PM
Place the car on a flat surface (mirror, table etc..) and get a straw. Put the straw in the middle of the front clip and lift up. They should both lift at the same time. One thing I do is when both wheels lift up, check the distance from the ground. The two distances should be the same.

thestug
2011.07.08, 06:50 PM
Place the car on a flat surface (mirror, table etc..) and get a straw. Put the straw in the middle of the front clip and lift up. They should both lift at the same time. One thing I do is when both wheels lift up, check the distance from the ground. The two distances should be the same.

Right, I think got it. I found this thread that talks about adding shims after lifting the wheels, but do the shims go above or below the knuckle. I'm not sure if I should be adjusting the ride height and spring preload or just preload. Also, this thread says something about adding a spacer between the bottom of the chassis and the lower rear plate of the chassis. But how much, what side, and where do you get/make such a spacer? Also, I run an X-speed motor on the lowest gearing. Would switching back to stock or my CTP 70t help with my tourque steer. I really want to get rid of this tourque steer it is aggrivating. :mad:

thestug
2011.07.08, 06:52 PM
Right, I think got it. I found this thread that talks about adding shims after lifting the wheels, but do the shims go above or below the knuckle. I'm not sure if I should be adjusting the ride height and spring preload or just preload. Also, this thread says something about adding a spacer between the bottom of the chassis and the lower rear plate of the chassis. But how much, what side, and where do you get/make such a spacer? Also, I run an X-speed motor on the lowest gearing. Would switching back to stock or my CTP 70t help with my tourque steer. I really want to get rid of this tourque steer it is aggrivating. :mad:

Oops, I forgot a link to the thread. lol.

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21486

color01
2011.07.08, 09:41 PM
Lol, even that answer depends on how the car sits as it is now.

Does your suspension have droop? If it does, taking away a little of it on one side will very effectively quash torque steer, possibly even overcompensate.

Does your suspension have lots of preload? It it does you're fairly screwed, since the shims won't actually do much to change the chassis' dynamic weight balance if the springs are already overloaded. In this case you want to fix the preload problem first, and then deal with your torque steer. Heck, the problem in this case might even be that the springs themselves aren't even and preloading them is exacerbating the symptoms.

If your suspension has zero droop and zero preload, then add a very small shim under the spring, to increase the preload just a tad, this will generally alleviate the torque steer problem. You can buy thin shims from PN or Atomic, Atomic's are prettier (anodized) but I find PN's to be more durable (they don't bend or warp as easily).

thestug
2011.07.09, 11:29 PM
Lol, even that answer depends on how the car sits as it is now.

Does your suspension have droop? If it does, taking away a little of it on one side will very effectively quash torque steer, possibly even overcompensate.

Does your suspension have lots of preload? It it does you're fairly screwed, since the shims won't actually do much to change the chassis' dynamic weight balance if the springs are already overloaded. In this case you want to fix the preload problem first, and then deal with your torque steer. Heck, the problem in this case might even be that the springs themselves aren't even and preloading them is exacerbating the symptoms.

If your suspension has zero droop and zero preload, then add a very small shim under the spring, to increase the preload just a tad, this will generally alleviate the torque steer problem. You can buy thin shims from PN or Atomic, Atomic's are prettier (anodized) but I find PN's to be more durable (they don't bend or warp as easily).

I'm not exactly sure what droop is. I think the only spacers I have on the knuckles is .2mm (ATM shims) on top to preload the stock springs. (I'm not really sure because this car is mostly for drifting) I'm using stock springs, but I have some PN lowering springs. I don't really race so I have never really used the PN springs much. I'll try taking out all the shims (because that should be zero preload) still not sure what droop is. :o

color01
2011.07.10, 01:46 AM
Put your car (whole thing, chassis + batteries + body) down on the ground. Now take a toothpick or a screwdriver, and slowly lift the chassis up off the ground. The distance that you can lift the chassis without the wheels coming off the ground is called droop (or uptravel). Most Mini-Z are setup without droop, but sometimes the MA010 has a little bit to make it grip more on slippery surfaces.

tastetickles
2011.08.26, 10:07 AM
Torque Steer plain and simple on all shaft driven cars, especially more pronounced on powerful motor and more noticeably on a long straight.

ScoobyPete
2011.08.26, 01:18 PM
Gtee it suspension, I am running the SAS rear on my AWD and when the car torque steers it's always down to uneven suspension. I cure it by tighning up the adjusters on the rear shocks being uneven.

thestug
2011.08.26, 03:17 PM
Torque Steer plain and simple on all shaft driven cars, especially more pronounced on powerful motor and more noticeably on a long straight.

I think this may be the case in my AWD, but what can be done to reduce it besides going to a less powerful motor? Lighter drive shaft maybe?

tastetickles
2011.08.26, 11:39 PM
I don't think there's any cure for that other than a belt driven car, at least not to my knowledge. Every high end touring/drift kit out there is belt driven.

color01
2011.08.27, 02:21 AM
I've heard of some experienced shaft drivers using different preload settings left/right to counterbalance the torque steer -- while I've never done this myself, it makes perfect sense actually.

My typical stance towards AWD torque steer really is "deal with it". :confused: It's a characteristic you have to get used to, sure, but it's not really making you slower in the absolute sense IMO. You give up speed in left turns but gain speed in right turns, so since most tracks are run clockwise aren't you actually at an advantage? My Mod MR03 is tweaked on purpose, to the right for clockwise tracks and to the left for counterclockwise. It makes sense to me that I need a steering advantage in the predominant turn-direction, and that's exactly what the MA010 gives you (on clockwise tracks).

thestug
2011.08.27, 01:39 PM
I've heard of some experienced shaft drivers using different preload settings left/right to counterbalance the torque steer -- while I've never done this myself, it makes perfect sense actually.

My typical stance towards AWD torque steer really is "deal with it". :confused: It's a characteristic you have to get used to, sure, but it's not really making you slower in the absolute sense IMO. You give up speed in left turns but gain speed in right turns, so since most tracks are run clockwise aren't you actually at an advantage? My Mod MR03 is tweaked on purpose, to the right for clockwise tracks and to the left for counterclockwise. It makes sense to me that I need a steering advantage in the predominant turn-direction, and that's exactly what the MA010 gives you (on clockwise tracks).

I understand this if you were racing the torque steer that you get on a high grip track is considerably less than when you are drifting. It is really annoyong to constantly have to battle torque steer while drifting.

color01
2011.08.27, 02:20 PM
Wait, what? Torque steer is the least apparent to me when drifting -- there is the least torque actually being applied to the wheels! On anything less than a glass track you'll be fighting the road anyways to keep the car in line, I feel the bumps and ruts in the surface far more than I feel on-throttle torque steer. And honestly I don't know any setup tricks to get around *that* other than leaving the springs very soft.

I feel like you may be confusing torque steer with plain old tweak. :confused:

thestug
2011.08.27, 08:01 PM
Err.. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have had issues with my AWD spinning out with drifting tires while accelerating in a straight line. Normal tires mosty fix this issue until you really accelerate hard, then it will spin. This is probable normal though. Perhaps a SAS rear end would help, but I don't really want to spend much money on anything right now. I guess I will just have to deal with it.

Cherub1m
2011.08.27, 08:25 PM
Err.. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have had issues with my AWD spinning out with drifting tires while accelerating in a straight line. Normal tires mosty fix this issue until you really accelerate hard, then it will spin. This is probable normal though. Perhaps a SAS rear end would help, but I don't really want to spend much money on anything right now. I guess I will just have to deal with it.

Something is very wrong if that is happening with normal racing tires. I can accelerate with no issues. The AWD's left turns are more pronounced then right turns, that is because of the balance. This can be fixed by adding some weight to the left of the chassis. I can't help you with drifting but if your running good tires like say Kyosho 20deg on the rear and Kyosho 30 or 40 on the front then you should not spin on hard acceleration unless you have something that is binding. Check and make sure the drive is free a and nothing is rubbing of dragging on the ground.

Also, I run the stock Kyosho rear and SAS (first gen. and second gen.) both run just fine no spinning on hard acceleration with either one.