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monkeyracing
2011.07.18, 06:33 PM
Hey guys, I'm wondering about what would constitute a good stock spec for racing Mini Z. When the class gets going, it's going to be run on a track that's about 12' x 26'. There will (hopefully) be a lot of new and younger racers and we want to keep it as controlled and affordable as possible.

My thoughts are to allow tires to be replaced with something grippier and leave it at that. The stock motors appear to last a little while and are dirt cheap. If no chassis mods are allowed, this class could stay fun for a while.

I say a while, because somewhere around the 10 month mark, people inevitably start whining and want to upgrade this or that and get a faster motor because they're always losing, instead of just becoming a better driver. We had a TT-01 class that was VERY strict spec. People wanted more speed, so we allowed a new motor. Certain parts broke, so we allowed alloy hop-ups. The new motors didn't last long enough, because the cars were over-geared and the whole class got dropped in favour of something much more expensive that pretty much no one runs now and now there are hobby shops with load of parts they can't sell and people saddled with cars that won't sell, either.

Aah, the unstoppable cycle of RC racing! I think I may be becoming jaded.

Anyway, thoughts, ideas?

Jim

reaper
2011.07.18, 06:56 PM
im all for stock class
a couple of things to chew over for the future , alloy knuckles as plastics get broken alot and although cheep can be anoying when you carnt race because you break one

i would try to keep the stock class and if some members want extra then run a "mod" class alongside

unearthed name
2011.07.18, 07:31 PM
Or you can try using pn racing stock class rules. All hop-up allowed, but motor is limited to 70-80 turn motor

bermbuster
2011.07.18, 09:43 PM
Hey guys, I'm wondering about what would constitute a good stock spec for racing Mini Z. When the class gets going, it's going to be run on a track that's about 12' x 26'. There will (hopefully) be a lot of new and younger racers and we want to keep it as controlled and affordable as possible.

My thoughts are to allow tires to be replaced with something grippier and leave it at that. The stock motors appear to last a little while and are dirt cheap. If no chassis mods are allowed, this class could stay fun for a while.

I say a while, because somewhere around the 10 month mark, people inevitably start whining and want to upgrade this or that and get a faster motor because they're always losing, instead of just becoming a better driver. We had a TT-01 class that was VERY strict spec. People wanted more speed, so we allowed a new motor. Certain parts broke, so we allowed alloy hop-ups. The new motors didn't last long enough, because the cars were over-geared and the whole class got dropped in favour of something much more expensive that pretty much no one runs now and now there are hobby shops with load of parts they can't sell and people saddled with cars that won't sell, either.

Aah, the unstoppable cycle of RC racing! I think I may be becoming jaded.

Anyway, thoughts, ideas?

Jim
Hey Jim
Kyosho has just made a stock class for racing. It allows only 2 hop ups...bearings and the yellow kyosho shock. In 2 weeks there will be a race at there hqs rt 241 in Lake Foest, CA I just bought box stock car so i can compete. They have another stock class that allows limited hop ups as well.....check it out

EMU
2011.07.18, 09:43 PM
I would recommend t-plate and bearing/wheel/tire changes... as well as spring and other tuning options. Each body handles quite differently, unlike with most 1/10 bodies that dont change as drastically with the different CG/weight of the body.

The stock MR03 is quite good as far as performance is concerned. The stock bushings will wear out quickly, so bearings will definitely help that. The stock t-plate is pretty soft, so with the higher CG bodies, this will lead to the car rolling a lot more than wanted, a stiffer t-plate should help with that. You want to leave some tuning options, completely limiting spring options reduces how you can adjust the setup basically to tires and body choice. Which can be more expensive, as people may want to find the body that works best for the type of track that is being raced.

greenepa76
2011.07.18, 10:20 PM
Hey Jim
Kyosho has just made a stock class for racing. It allows only 2 hop ups...bearings and the yellow kyosho shock. In 2 weeks there will be a race at there hqs rt 241 in Lake Foest, CA I just bought box stock car so i can compete. They have another stock class that allows limited hop ups as well.....check it out

Bermbuster,

The shock that is allowed in the Kyosho stock class is the black kit plastic one, not the yellow oil damper. So it's just a spring and not truly a damper.

bermbuster
2011.07.18, 11:21 PM
Bermbuster,

The shock that is allowed in the Kyosho stock class is the black kit plastic one, not the yellow oil damper. So it's just a spring and not truly a damper.

did they change that?i thought i when i researched the number the yellow shock came up......the yellow shock is mz207 the black plastic shock is the mz206.....sorry for any mis-information

LED
2011.07.19, 02:51 AM
Ok I'm goign to try to be heard one more time in this issue.
We have been race stock class for years now.
Following items are what we allow.

- H-bar carbon of any other material.
- bearings (dont think this needs any kind of argument)
- kyosho yellow top oil shock. Yes you do need it. makes alot of difference.
- 0 knuckles. Mainly for the mr02 because they tend to break easy.
- 0 alu tower bar. Again mainly for the MR02 because the top arms of the chassis break off easy. It is better to allow this for a beginning driver then to replace the chassis every month. I went through 3 chassis in 2 months time when I started out with this.
- Alu H-bar mount. Why? because in the beginning you are lookign for your setup and you try alot of different things. Including the H-bar. Change the H-bar 6 7 times and the holes in the chassis are ruined. Besides maybe a little weight this doesnt change the car at all.
- Front springs. Because you do need something for tuning. Like Emu said each car is different. + it is cheaper to have a couple of tires and a set of springs then to have to buy every tire out there in order to find a good one for you.
- Toe in - out bar. Alu or plastic. Same reason as the springs.
- Alu front clip. Because again for starting drivers this is a breaking point.
- Stock motor.

Thats it.

And if you want everyone to run the same speed, select a brand of batteries to use.
For us this is still free, and as you know there is alot of difference between batteries and with the stock motor this becomes very obvious.

Trust me, we have been racing this for years. It is alot of fun to race stock, but not if your car keeps breaking down for something stupid like an upper front arm.

Something I stil lhave to investigate, I found generic motors that are the same as the kyosho motor at about 1/7 of the price. Stil lhave to take a look at them to see how they compare to each other. Could be a nice price reduction.

I have been racing my current kyosho stock motor for about 16 months now, so they do last a long time.

monkeyracing
2011.07.19, 03:58 AM
Or you can try using pn racing stock class rules. All hop-up allowed, but motor is limited to 70-80 turn motor

Interesting option. Thanks.

Ok I'm going to try to be heard one more time in this issue.

I hear you, loud and clear. I suppose a response to this and to unearthed's suggestion is that it's an interesting option, but it does end up making the class more expensive when one opens up options like this.

Racer psychology dictates that it's never your own fault if you lose and that if you just had that one extra part, you'd win.

What I'm looking for is the bare minimum. Front suspension bits are a must, I suppose, as there will be a lot of crashing. Good tires are important. Don't really care what batteries are run as long as they're nimh AAA.

Something I still have to investigate, I found generic motors that are the same as the kyosho motor at about 1/7 of the price.

Now that's my kind of thinking! We're considering hand out motors and this sort of thing would really help.

I was investigating why we were paying $12-$20 for silver can motors for our Tamiya Mini class a while back. What I discovered is that the good ol' Johnson/Mabuchi 540 motor has been in production for nearly 50 years. Development and tooling costs are ancient history and the motors can be had for around $0.50 at wholesale. The rest is pure profit! I'm sure the same goes for most 130 size motors.

A side note to the 540 motor story is that we've had cars running variations of them that had been pulled from vacuum cleaners, drills, blow dryers...you name it.

Jim

LED
2011.07.19, 07:01 AM
Interesting option. Thanks.



I hear you, loud and clear. I suppose a response to this and to unearthed's suggestion is that it's an interesting option, but it does end up making the class more expensive when one opens up options like this.



Actually, most of the thing I suggest are optional. Like the alu suspension. A person can deside themself if they want to invest in it or not. But if you see that a chassis costs about 1/2 an alu front suspension, you already win back the costs of not having to replace the chassis a third time. Wich will happen with alot of newcommers.

Only the front springs and the toe bars are options that have an effect on the handling of the car. If you want to keep it cheap, you can say only toe bars in a kyosho set. They ar eplastic, not expensive and do the job as good as an alu one.

The front knuckles you can only buy in a set containing other parts for the suspension, and having to buy the set each time you brake a knuckle is also money down the drain. + the alu knuckles are not that expensive.

Anyway, if you deside to go completely stock, nothing is holding you back to change to rules at a later date.

I hope you will enjoy this class as much as I do.

Grtz

EMU
2011.07.19, 07:45 AM
For MR02/015, I would definitely allow kingpin upgrade. Compared to the stock MR03 kingpin, the stock MR02/015 kingpin is not smooth. Stock knuckles are not a problem, so long as racers pay attention to the offset, and dont have the wheels sticking out too far, breaking a stock knuckle wont happen often unless there is a big wreck.

I would personally disallow aluminum towers. There are tuning options that are available with the aluminum towers (caster/camber), and as with the knuckles, if you run a little less offset, you are not likely going to have a problem with breaking the stock tower. I think I have broken 2 upper arms on my MR02/015 chassis in all of my years of racing them. For a durability standpoint, the aluminum tower can save cost and time of having to replace chassis if you are prone to breaking the towers... however, it will change how the cars handle, whether thats a good thing or not.

To compare the MR02/MR015 with the MR03, the MR03 is much better out of the box, so you may want to be a little more lenient with them. Upgraded kingpins should be allowed, a relatively cheap upgrade that makes the front suspension much smoother. The MR03 comes with kingpins that are smooth, essentially the same as the MR02 upgrades in performance.

I agree completely with LED in the alloy t-plate adapters, as this is usually one point that you can easily strip the chassis, and then have to change the chassis to get the tweak out of the car.

LED
2011.07.19, 08:40 AM
If you use 0 tower bar it doesn change anything on the car handling?
I guess it depends on how good you are from the start.In my beginning days I hit the wall alot, and I did break a couple of arms in a short period of time.
Also what kind of offset you run can have a big effect on it.

About the king pins, we do not allow stainless steel ones for the MR02 but we do allow polishing them. Even if you do nithing after a couple months they are smooth anyway and the black is gone.
I polished mine using a handdrill and soap with pulp in it. You can realy take of the anodizing easily and make them realy smooth.

EMU
2011.07.19, 11:27 PM
I definitely feel the difference between stock and 0d towers. For some, it may increase the handling, others decrease. Its all about weight distribution and suspension stiffness. Stock towers are softer, and have a little more flex than the alloy towers. The alloy tower also adds a little mass to the front of the chassis. It is a small increase, but so are the cars. I personally prefer the feel of the stock towers over alloy 0d, as do a few racers that I race with. One racer broke his tower, replaced it with an alloy spare that I had, and could not get the car to do the same lap times he had done before the tower broke. Slapping on the tower is a good solution to a broken tower, but it is not the same, and setup may have to be adjusted with front spring and tire due to the change in stiffness and change in center of mass.

As far as kingpin, you have to be very careful when polishing them... You decrease the diameter of the shaft, which can cause slop. I used to do this to cut costs on my cars, but over time, they get rough. The SS kingpins are a basic necessity, and are the primary reason why I would use an MR03 over MR02/015 if SS kingpins are disallowed.