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twinkie
2011.10.07, 02:28 PM
Guess I put this originally in the wrong area...anyhow


Why is it, in mod/open class (i.e pn races) it is illegal to run the li-fe battery even though kyosho has one?

color01
2011.10.07, 04:41 PM
I *believe* that it's mostly because of cost and lack of equalization measures vs. other Mod/open setups. LiFe is significantly more powerful as well as a little bit lighter, and I think a lot of racing series didn't want to force all of its Mod drivers to adopt Kyosho's pricey LiFe setup to stay competitive.

If someone can come up with a nice affordable LiFe (or voltage-regulated LiPo) setup then I think it would be worth giving it a shot in a racing series.

twinkie
2011.10.07, 07:29 PM
A main has the li-fe battery for 15.00 bucks, and its 6 bucks i think for the harness.


Considering that r1 can cost 15 bucks... its not as expensive as when it first came out possibly?

color01
2011.10.08, 07:17 AM
Ok, nice find! That would indeed be worth a shot to test out. I wouldn't be expecting much though since ProTek-branded stuff is usually entry-level, their AAA NiMH cells are long-life low-punch stuff (crap for racing, nice for bashing/newcomers).

twinkie
2011.10.08, 11:49 AM
cool thanks for letting me know... guess i'll try the kyosho pack and then get the pro-tek and compare the two.... are you coming up for nationals next weekend?

btw this is elliott

josyskunk
2011.10.08, 12:29 PM
I have used both. The r246 LiFe fits perfect in the chassis but only 400 mah and Protech is bigger and I have to cut chassis to fit it in. The reason I m willing to cut the chassis is the protech seems to have more power and have 500 mah and longer.

mugler
2011.10.08, 06:46 PM
Whatever happened to Lithium Ion battery pack idea that atomic mods started?
they seem to have found some batteries with capacities as high as 780mah that would fit with some shoe horning:
http://www.atomicmods.com/search.aspx?keyword=lithium+ion
I think lithium batteries have a place when mini-Z's are raced on 1/10 scale track such as TQ here in SoCal. It would be cool to have a mini-Z race at 2012 iic :eek: if so Lithium would be the way to go so far as impressing onlookers.

arch2b
2011.10.08, 06:56 PM
i had them and they are punchy, light weight and your car flys down the track. what is unfortunate is that after years of people asking for battery packs for mini-z racing, no one is adopting these factory made kits.

mugler
2011.10.08, 10:23 PM
i had them and they are punchy, light weight and your car flys down the track. what is unfortunate is that after years of people asking for battery packs for mini-z racing, no one is adopting these factory made kits.

I think packs might have had a better chance if they were hooked up in a series for capacity equaling existing nimh vs parallel for speed that is not really usable on small tracks. The low capacity is not good.
Maybe MR-04 will be designed around a 1s lipo battery like dNano's not to mention 12th scale cars.

arch2b
2011.10.09, 09:02 AM
i'm sure that is something any one of the aftermarket companies could do. still no support for it or else they would have it on the shelves already. if what kyosho made won't sell, it doesn't show much promise to aftermarket manuf. that there is money to be made. if it won't make money, were not going to see it.

Ancient Artist
2011.10.10, 04:39 PM
I have used both. The r246 LiFe fits perfect in the chassis but only 400 mah and Protech is bigger and I have to cut chassis to fit it in. The reason I m willing to cut the chassis is the protech seems to have more power and have 500 mah and longer.

Any chance can you provide pics of the batteries in the car? I'm curious to see the size difference.
-Also you noted that the Protek "seem to have more power...". Have you done any reasonability testing to ground that like lap times, or total laps?
Sorry for all the questions but I'm really interested to see how practical these are and how they perform.
I'd love to see the 1/28 class evolve more into using Li-Fe's and even the Lexan bodies to be more in sync with larger scales.
Not only do I think it would make racers from other scales more accepting of possibly racing Mini-Z's but would more importantly provide better value (long term) for the racers. Even with the Kyosho packs being a bit pricey, i think you would get more consistency, longer use and ultimately a better value out of them then using AAA's.
For example -Just the other day I fired up my Dnano for the first time in over a year, and the packs were all still charged up and ran great. I can't imagine any of my AAA's doing that!:rolleyes:

In theory i would think using lexan bodies and Li-Fe batteries would instantly make you go faster for less money. Who wouldn't want that?

arch2b
2011.10.10, 05:22 PM
i'm sure there are some that would but i'm not interested in 1/28 lexan racing. i got into mini-z for the autoscales and that is where i'll stay. i support alternate battery options though.

Atomic-USA
2011.10.10, 05:39 PM
i'm sure that is something any one of the aftermarket companies could do. still no support for it or else they would have it on the shelves already. if what kyosho made won't sell, it doesn't show much promise to aftermarket manuf. that there is money to be made. if it won't make money, were not going to see it.

Atomic has the ability to produce better LiFe for the current Mini-z lineup but it all depends on whether we can sell enough to justify production and whether other popular racing programs prohibit our products.

AWD + lightweight LiFe = win.

Mini-z is kind of going backwards with NiMh and kit/parts pricings compared to other scales. This may be a reason of dropping interest compared to a few years ago.

josyskunk
2011.10.10, 06:09 PM
I totally agree with arch2b. I am into Mini z for the scale look and who need lexan body when they can have ACS. Yes Lexan body do save weight but with LiFe, you have more enough power/weight ratio already. At the end of the day, it all depends how much traction between the tire and the RCP.
I don't have any data to prove the Protech have more punch. It is a subjective feel. But I can tell you the Protech do have more run time.
I have attached some pictures that show the size different between the two.
32236

32237

32238

32239

32240

twinkie
2011.10.10, 06:43 PM
im down for more power and something different than AAA.... as far as lexan, I would not want to change to it. But I enjoy the lexan pan car. Problem with lexan is you lose the true details of the body.

arch2b
2011.10.10, 06:57 PM
There are a myriad of reasons why participation has dropped, the least of which include a global recession and rising production costs at a time when hobby dollars are harder to come by. This has all been discussed at length in various threads.

Your not going to find afteremarket support despite the technology and capability already there until it's being accepted in racing which means rule changes which creates sales to keep up. Simple economics here and we all know how hard it is to get the large series leaders to change anything when the system is working. He'll, Kyosho doesn't even accept their own product. Util then, its not going anywhere beyond what it is now which is no where, slowly. Not trying to sound drastic, but slow acknowledging the harsh reality.

mugler
2011.10.10, 07:16 PM
i'm sure that is something any one of the aftermarket companies could do. still no support for it or else they would have it on the shelves already. if what kyosho made won't sell, it doesn't show much promise to aftermarket manuf. that there is money to be made. if it won't make money, were not going to see it.

Current cars' suspension geometry and electronics are designed around 4nimh batteries weight and voltage . to go to 1s lithium now the voltage for motor and servo would be too low. the 2s offering now has way too much voltage and not enough capacity. Kyosho probably put it out for speed junkies to have fun with in parking lots but there's no way of running these on mini-z specific tracks.
Kysosho can't keep making a nimh car forever & eventually will design a car around a lipo with proper electronics and suspension to go with the lower weight , the only question is if it will be 1s or 2s. & from there we'll have to wait some more for the brushless version:D

cowboysir
2011.10.10, 07:43 PM
I guess everyone has forgotten about the lack of popularity of the aftermarket chassis class? To me that's where the possibility of grabbing large scale racers interest and yet it's still a niche class. This (IMO) is where lexan, li-fe cells and aftermarket electronics belong...

Mini-Z is all about autoscale class racing. The track size and design calls for fast racing at 4.8 volts...Nuff said.

EMU
2011.10.10, 07:51 PM
I guess everyone has forgotten about the lack of popularity of the aftermarket chassis class? To me that's where the possibility of grabbing large scale racers interest and yet it's still a niche class. This (IMO) is where lexan, li-fe cells and aftermarket electronics belong...

Mini-Z is all about autoscale class racing. The track size and design calls for fast racing at 4.8 volts...Nuff said.

I agree. With the current limitations at 4.8v it really limits almost all of the aftermarket chassis' servo speed. Basically crippling the cars. With a possiblity of LiFe, and lexan bodies... these could actually be raced. Using AAA is great for Mini-Z, but sucks for all aftermarket chassis. They come and go because the electronics are designed for higher voltages. On the drawing board they look better than Mini-Z, but in reality, the Mini-Z is king at 4.8v in 1/28 scale.

Ancient Artist
2011.10.10, 07:53 PM
I totally agree with arch2b. I am into Mini z for the scale look and who need lexan body when they can have ACS. Yes Lexan body do save weight but with LiFe, you have more enough power/weight ratio already. At the end of the day, it all depends how much traction between the tire and the RCP.
I don't have any data to prove the Protech have more punch. It is a subjective feel. But I can tell you the Protech do have more run time.
I have attached some pictures that show the size different between the two.
32236

32237

32238

32239

32240


Great pics! Thanks for posting them up so quick. It's hard to tell where you cut,so I can only speculate it wasn't much which is really encouraging.

Arch,
I agree that it's hard to pinpoint the exact reason for the decline, but the Global Economy certainly has a lot to do with it. Race Organizations hopefully will initiate these changes as they are usually organized by manufacturers, but it has been slow. IMO they really should be the ones continuing to challenge,evolve,and push the boundaries and introduce new products like the batteries if for nothing else then to lift sales (or at least keep it steady) for themselves. however, if the racers push for it and start creating classes at the club level then that can certainly influence the larger organizations and manufacturers to make the changes as well.
As much as I truly appreciate all the manufacturers support for the racing, it's a shame there isn't one governing body (similar to ROAR) for the Micro scales (specifically 1/28th) to standardize things a bit, and allow basic rules with equal opportunity for all Manufacturers to compete with their products. I think the healthy competition would make it more exciting, more relevant, and in the end probably benefit everyone.

As far as the Lexan bodies go, I'm in the middle. Autoscales look better then any other scale racing body out there, but are costly and limited in availability. The white bodies are nice but most people take them and ditch all the extra pieces, hack them a bit, paint them up for competition and the end is a subpar (looking) presentation (unless you pay a premium for a pro paint job - which end up costing even more the an autoscale).
Lexan is not as detailed but could be pretty good if designed well, makes it very easy for competitive racers to create their own scheme and make it look good because it's easier to paint for most people, and the bodies are less expensive. You also have the flexibility to change the wheel base much more accurately.
I agree there's room for both, and the answer is probably just keeping it in the Pan Car class which is okay with me, because most "non" mini-z racers or spectators that don't race that I have shown a variety of video to always like those the most. Yes they are the fastest out there,so it's impressive but they do look cool as well. I'm just surprised more guys don't do it.
I apologize for going off track I realize some of the discussion could probably be in it's own thread...

arch2b
2011.10.10, 07:56 PM
Again, if the racing series support and demand where there or greater for aftermarket chassis, you would see more of them. Right now, ask mrcg how hard it is to develope, market and manuf. A chassis with the limited use and implementation of them. It just the same economic model over again.

Ancient Artist
2011.10.10, 08:22 PM
Again, if the racing series support and demand where there or greater for aftermarket chassis, you would see more of them. Right now, ask mrcg how hard it is to develope, market and manuf. A chassis with the limited use and implementation of them. It just the same economic model over again.

I completely understand what you mean with regards to the costs and logistical challenges of Designing/Manufacturing a car. When I was younger my father worked close with Jim Dieter when he was first developing the Titan/Reflex Car in the early 90's and the only thing that made that happen was the financial support partnering with Trinity.
Even if they get going there's still isn't some practical solution to the electronics.Yes you can hack up a board, but there's nothing currently on the market for guys to just purchase and drop in like other scales.

I'm also sure guys are hesitant because they are weary of investing in a product from a small shop because you don't know if they will be around. That exact thing happened to me. I invested quite a bit in the Sinister car along with a bunch of parts. The car had great potential but they just disappeared one day.So unless a larger manufacturer like PN Racing, Atomic or Xray did it, I probably won't buy one again. I dunno. I just enjoy this scale tons and hope it grows. The main thing is people have to be open to possibilities and evolution otherwise slowly and suddenly it will decline to a point where many manufactures won't invest anymore, and new products will be far and few.

twinkie
2011.10.11, 12:45 AM
i agree with having to innovate and evolve... but in order to do so, you have to answer the what where and why questions.

Mini-Z reminds me of being a kid and doing slot cars. Best part about this is no slots and its very modular. I just hope it doesn't die like slot cars...

I'd say another contributing factor to the 1/28th scale isnt just the economy, but is also due to media/publicity.

color01
2011.10.11, 05:58 AM
Part of it is also the fact that Mini-Z are just too darn fast already. Some older drivers literally cannot follow the cars on Regupol or RCP because there's just too much grip and speed for the size of the track -- adding LiFe or LiPo into the mix is asking for trouble.

On the other hand, if you take a LiPo powered MRCG to a 1/12 carpet track, I can pretty much guarantee you'll start spanking the local racers. Drop a big LiPo pack and 1/18 electronics into the chassis, which itself is naturally geared towards low grip surfaces, and it will stretch its legs fully on the larger track. Perhaps we'll see more Lithium and carbon-chassis action when 1/28 catches on with the larger-scale crowd as an alternative racing class. Till then, we're pretty stuck with AAA's since Kyosho has tried to keep Mini-Z accessible to non-RC people with each generation (non-RC people means easy batteries = AAA NiMH).

twinkie
2011.10.11, 02:42 PM
has anyone done a li-fe in a pan car :) sounds fast