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View Full Version : МА-010 with MR-03 board - steering travel problem


Bodom
2011.12.16, 11:15 AM
Hello,
My MA-010 is on 03 board from some time on.
The problem is that with the KT-18 transmitter I couldn't get the steering to use it's whole range. I hit the maximum to the left on the controller and not on the servo.

Now I got EX-10 Helios with RF-901SM and I've read this thread (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30342).
But with 70% steering travel and steering balance - my servo barely moves.
I can get it to hit both left and right maximums of the servo by setting the Steering Travel to 122% and steering balance to 69% both left and right.
I've also moved the Steering Sub Trim to L30.

My MR-03 works just fine with the recommended settings, but the patched MA-010 doesn't.

Is it safe to use it that way - at 122% ST.TRAVEL ?
What is your setup for MA-010 with 03 board ?
I've thought for modifying the steering pot's resistance to increase steering travel..

machgo5go
2011.12.16, 12:25 PM
Hello,
My MA-010 is on 03 board from some time on.
The problem is that with the KT-18 transmitter I couldn't get the steering to use it's whole range. I hit the maximum to the left on the controller and not on the servo.

Now I got EX-10 Helios with RF-901SM and I've read this thread (http://mini-zracer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30342).
But with 70% steering travel and steering balance - my servo barely moves.
I can get it to hit both left and right maximums of the servo by setting the Steering Travel to 122% and steering balance to 69% both left and right.
I've also moved the Steering Sub Trim to L30.

My MR-03 works just fine with the recommended settings, but the patched MA-010 doesn't.

Is it safe to use it that way - at 122% ST.TRAVEL ?
What is your setup for MA-010 with 03 board ?
I've thought for modifying the steering pot's resistance to increase steering travel.. That is the drawback in such high range travel with 03 board since steering servo motor is not coreless like a normal 03 chassis.
I rather live with this then fighting Reverse delay from it's original 02 board.

JuniorWKR
2011.12.16, 02:14 PM
try 0.5 degrees of toe in. this wil help you out a bit.. Its what i did on mine.

color01
2011.12.16, 02:18 PM
I'm pretty sure it's just a potentiometer thing... just replace the MA-010 potentiometer with the MR03 pot. Since the actual steering angle range on the pot is almost the same between the 03 and the AWD, the MR03 pot will not register any difference back to the PCB, and thus you'll be back to normal. If the steering is reversed left/right afterwards, you can reverse it again on the Helios to make it work properly. :)

Bodom
2011.12.16, 02:26 PM
I'm pretty sure it's just a potentiometer thing... just replace the MA-010 potentiometer with the MR03 pot. Since the actual steering angle range on the pot is almost the same between the 03 and the AWD, the MR03 pot will not register any difference back to the PCB, and thus you'll be back to normal. If the steering is reversed left/right afterwards, you can reverse it again on the Helios to make it work properly. :)

I use the pot that came with the board (MR03 pot), since it's a new one and I wanted to replace everything. The motor is also new one. I just swapped two wires from the pot. So it's not that.
Do you have MA-010 with 03 board color01?

edit:
try 0.5 degrees of toe in. this wil help you out a bit.. Its what i did on mine.

More toe-in helped a bit. Thanks.

color01
2011.12.17, 01:50 PM
I use the pot that came with the board (MR03 pot), since it's a new one and I wanted to replace everything. The motor is also new one. I just swapped two wires from the pot. So it's not that.
Do you have MA-010 with 03 board color01?
I do not, but I was following MK2kompressor's build very closely as he was one of the first people to put an 03 board in the 010. No problems reported from his end. The problem you're describing seriously doesn't make any sense if you assume all the components (pot, motor, PCB) are working properly. Why would the same pot read the same steering angle differently between two cars? That's the logic behind my conclusions...

This technically shouldn't work, but have you tried swapping the wires on the pot? What happens?

JuniorWKR
2011.12.18, 08:46 AM
there is definitly a decrease in overall turning radius when you put the 03 board on the awd... dont know why... everyon has the same issue that i have personally seen on their cars as well with the same conversion... a little bit of toe in solved our issues... we are all using the stock awd steering components and just swapped boards..

Bodom
2011.12.18, 12:46 PM
The story is the following:
Got an 27Mhz AM MA-010 Readyset. Hopped it up.
Got pissed up by the glitches.
Got an KT-18 transmitter with MR-03 (different story).
Got an RA-22 board and new Atomic steering motor.
Swapped the board and motor (just removed the core-less motor from the RA-22 kit) and swapped green and orange pot wires on the board.
I got ridiculous turning radius with the KT-18 so I gave up using my AWD as racing car.
Now I have Helios and the MA-010 turns fine again, but I wonder if this high ST.TRAVEL is fine with the RA-22 board...

It is reasonable that the pot should read the same values used in the two types of servos, but the MA-010 servo has less travel overall I think..
Don't know what's wrong with my car, that's why I ask for your configurations on the radio using MA-010 with RA-22 board. :)

Thank you all for the replies :)

Cheers.

color01
2011.12.18, 02:45 PM
I see I see... well, there's certainly no problem putting the ranges above 100% -- as long as you don't hear any mechanical strain coming from the servo, there is probably nothing wrong with it. You can always decrease the steering travel to 100% and increase the steering balance L/R up to 90% or so, which will bring the steering travel back up. :)

If you want to play around with it and understand the MR03 PCB, you can swap both the pot wires and the servo motor wires so the servo runs in reverse. If the PCB is reading the pot any differently, you'll notice a change in servo travel, and that will make it clear why everyone gets this result on the MA010. Otherwise, I think you're good, just have fun. :)

z3zinho
2011.12.18, 03:33 PM
The different turning radius doesn't make much sense unless either a) 03 boards have a different pot (same size , different value), or b)the pot doesn't rotate as much on the 03 vs the awd/02... Anyone checked this?

color01
2011.12.18, 04:53 PM
The MA010 has a tiny bit less (10% or so?) travel than the MR03, and either the pot or motor needs to be reversed if I recall correctly, since the MA010 has one less gear in the servo. In all cases (MA010/MR03/MR02) the pot is attached to the final servo gear, which has almost the exact same travel as the actual steering angle at the servo saver. So I would expect that there is some difference in steering travel, but not as large as what bodom is reporting. :eek: That's unfortunately all I can help with. :o

lfisminiz
2011.12.18, 06:33 PM
You should not have any trouble with the higher radio setting. ALL my cars have an 03 board in them....F-1, AWD, 02. ALL my radio setting are higher than the recomended 70/70 etc...I have been racing with them all with the higher radio setting with no trouble at all.:)

lfisminiz
2011.12.18, 06:34 PM
My 03 cars with 03 boards do have lower radio setting. I think its just a difference in the 03 board when put in other cars other than a 03.

GIHOSU
2011.12.19, 11:35 AM
The difference is not in the electronics. There is one major difference between the servo gears in an MR-03 and the older gears in the MR-02/015s and the MA-010s that explains the differences in steering with the 03 board swap.

If you look closely at the servo gears and compare the final gears with the peg, the distance from the pivot point of the gears to the center of the peg that moves the arm is 4mm on the older gears and 7mm on the new ones that are used in the 03. That longer final gear, which is essentially a servo horn, makes the arm to the servo saver swing on a larger radius and so 03 servo moves more distance for each degree of gear rotation than the older cars. This change in geometry is a roughly 40% difference.

I am using 90% steering travel on my Helios with my MA-010 with an 03 board, on all my other cars I use 50-65% steering travel depending on the setup. My radio settings needed to have increased travel to account for the decreased steering throw from using a old servo gear set with an 03 board. It is like installing a longer servo horn on a bigger scale car.

Bodom
2011.12.20, 02:47 AM
.....
That pretty much explains everything :)
Thank you!

reaper
2011.12.24, 12:25 PM
the rpoblem is caused by the feedback voltage of the motor , as the 03 motor is much smaller and coreless the feedback is much less

all i did was add 2 47k resistors on the outer pot legs ....problem sorted

o and fwiw makes no difference if pot and motor are wired "backwards"

EMU
2011.12.24, 12:55 PM
the rpoblem is caused by the feedback voltage of the motor , as the 03 motor is much smaller and coreless the feedback is much less

all i did was add 2 47k resistors on the outer pot legs ....problem sorted

o and fwiw makes no difference if pot and motor are wired "backwards"

I disagree with this statement, as the motor is either turned on (to turn the gears) or turned off. Changing voltage on the motor will increase or decrease the speed of the motor, which is not the problem. Adding resistors to the pot has nothing to do with the voltage of the motor. It will just trick the pot into thinking that the final gear has travelled greater distance/more degrees.

I completely agree with what GIHOSU stated above. While your fix may work, the lower travel on the MR02/AWD compared to the MR03 are the culprit here. Because the hinge/pin for the servo saver is further from the shaft that goes through the final gear compared to the MR02/AWD. So every degree that the final gear moves, and thus the pot moves on the MR03, the tie rod travels greater distance and the wheels have more steering angle. Which means that the steering travel limit in the transmitter has to be greater for MR02/AWD than MR03 with an MR03 board.

cowboysir
2011.12.24, 01:14 PM
I'm with EMU and GIHOSU on this...i just did 2 MR02 jobs with MR03 boards and my controller needs between 85-92% travel to get nice full steering throw compared to my Mr03's which vary between 65-72% travel.

Makes for a very nice MR02 with an RA-22 board...hope your MA010 comes out nicely.;)

lfisminiz
2011.12.24, 08:38 PM
I'm with EMU and GIHOSU on this...i just did 2 MR02 jobs with MR03 boards and my controller needs between 85-92% travel to get nice full steering throw compared to my Mr03's which vary between 65-72% travel.

Makes for a very nice MR02 with an RA-22 board...hope your MA010 comes out nicely.;)

Ditto here...as i stated before, all 03 boards in my 02s, AWD, F-1, are like this.:)

GIHOSU
2011.12.26, 10:04 AM
all i did was add 2 47k resistors on the outer pot legs ....problem sorted

Sounds like a way to do the same thing as changing the steering settings on my Helios. For me, and many Mini-Zers too, it is less difficult to adjust the Tx than open up the car and solder in some resistors.

My thought is your fix would help a driver that doesn't have any model memory features on their Tx. What you did would allow for smoother transitions between 2WDs and AWDs if someone is using a KT-18 or something like that and didn't want to get into big changes in settings.

I am curious about the new AWDs with the Tiki-Tiki boards and the settings they will need.

cowboysir
2011.12.26, 10:24 AM
One of those MR02's I swapped boards had an RA-22 w/chase mode so the settings described earlier were the same from board to board. My guess is that AWD with Tiki-Tiki would require the same program settings or mods.

Bodom
2011.12.26, 12:21 PM
I have to say that my MA-010 with RA-22 doesn't work well with KT-18 transmitter. The max steering angle is so bad.
I was going to give up on it while I had only the KT-18. Now with the Helios I am happy with my MA-010 again.

miniz
2012.03.13, 09:21 PM
Hi guys,

I wasn't even looking for this problem but stumbled across this thread. I have exactly the same problem but am stuck with the kt18 or flysky gt3b only.

What is the cheapest way to get full lock on the awd with the 03 board? I have a crazy fast car that cannot turn and it really getting me down after all the cost. Would the turbo board bypass this and does anyone in the uk do paid mods at all?

I contacted Atomic and they suggested changing the wire order of the 5 small wires. All that did was reverse my steering and throttle and I had to reset the kt18. Kinda surprised they threw me a red herring there, they seem super experienced. And yeah, I have maxed the travel out on this little tx.

Thanks for all you posted so far, I would have been in the dark otherwise.

Bodom
2012.03.14, 02:24 AM
Hi guys,

I wasn't even looking for this problem but stumbled across this thread. I have exactly the same problem but am stuck with the kt18 or flysky gt3b only.

What is the cheapest way to get full lock on the awd with the 03 board? I have a crazy fast car that cannot turn and it really getting me down after all the cost. Would the turbo board bypass this and does anyone in the uk do paid mods at all?

I contacted Atomic and they suggested changing the wire order of the 5 small wires. All that did was reverse my steering and throttle and I had to reset the kt18. Kinda surprised they threw me a red herring there, they seem super experienced. And yeah, I have maxed the travel out on this little tx.

Thanks for all you posted so far, I would have been in the dark otherwise.

Your best bet is:

all i did was add 2 47k resistors on the outer pot legs ....problem sorted

miniz
2012.03.14, 04:59 AM
Thanks for the reply. This thread is the only thing giving me some hope

If the wires are facing away from me (looking at the car from behind I have from left to right:

Green, White, Orange, Red, Black.

Sorry to be a complete noob but which ones are my pot wires?:confused:
I swapped two pair but have no idea which ones were the pot.

I really would like to pay someone who can do a proper setup on this lock problem if that is an option.

Bodom
2012.03.14, 06:37 AM
Your pot wires are the left three ones - Green, White, Orange.
(as you can see here)
http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq194/Bodom_photos/Mini-Z/MA-010/2011-07-29142343.jpg

You should solder two resistors on the Green and Orange wires (one on each wire).
The exact value of the resistors is a matter of experiment I think.
The whole potentiometer measures about 4.7K Ohms I think.
I would try some small values - around 1 or 2 K Ohms.

miniz
2012.03.14, 11:44 AM
Hi Bodom,

Thanks again for your input - I really appreciate it.
Is there possibly any chance of seeing yours before I start?
Did you put heatshrink over the resistors to stop shorts? Should I add some wire to the pads to solder to instead of the pads?

I only want to do this once so can yo tell me exactly what the resistors are?

Sorry to be a pita about this dude, but you probably guess i'm kinda out of my depth here.

Cheers

Bodom
2012.03.14, 04:42 PM
Sorry mate, I haven't done this to my AWD... Because I bought Helios. So I cannot show you pictures or tell you the exact values for the resistors.
reaper says 47K ohms, but this seems too much to me.
However I did similar thing to my old AM board from my AWD when I've put it in one XMOD truck to increase the steering angle - and it worked!
Just experiment with mock up soldering and test the steering. When you find values that work - make it more precise with soldering and isolating.

As I don't trust my soldering skills I preferred swapping my green and orange pot wires at the side of the pot, not at the board :)
You can add the resistors at the pot side too, but I don't know if you could find physical place for them at the pot side..

Good luck!

miniz
2012.03.14, 06:12 PM
So I practiced for a while before deciding that my iron was jank and I should just shell out on a decent variable voltage unit.

Turns out it's the best thing I did and my soldering is actually quite good, I just lacked a decent iron with correct size shape and heat and some confidence (kind of a lot wrong there). Adding 1.8k resistors to the two legs (orange and green) gives me full lock to the point the aluminum knuckles hit the plastic stop.

I can't tell you how grateful I am, I owe you a drink big time. It's my birthday in about 1 hour and I couldn't be happier this is sorted, most excellent present. :)

It did get me wondering though, why is the stop there, for support when cornering? Can that be sanded down or removed for even more lock as the steering rack looks like it has another mm or so travel?

Can toe in be added to help without changing the knuckles. They say 1.5 on the front and 2.0 on the back?

Bodom
2012.03.15, 04:00 AM
Wow, you did a great job!
I think that the servo saver horn hits it's limits inside the servo and nothing can be done to fix that.
Toe-in in front will decrease the turning radius of the car a bit and will help for better auto-centering the servo after a turn.

P.S. Happy birthday! :)

miniz
2012.03.15, 08:02 AM
I have a put a couple pics in my gallery for anyone who may find useful, I certainly could of used a couple before I started.

I haven't added any after steering lock pics yet but it mechanically reaches it's limit now. This is the piece of plastic I was talking about, it this the servo saver? What would happen if they were slimmed down a bit?

http://mini-zracer.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=145&pictureid=1311

Bodom
2012.03.15, 08:39 AM
Wow, I've never had this piece of plastic on the way of my knuckles...
Are you sure that this piece mechanically stops the steering mechanism ?
I see no reason not to shave it anyway.

miniz
2012.03.15, 11:56 AM
Do you mean this plastic piece isn't there on your model or your steering stops before hitting this piece?

This is the front right knuckle with full left lock
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=145&pictureid=1319

and full right lock so the knuckle rests against the grey stopper piece.
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=145&pictureid=1318

this is the steering rack? right hand side when full right lock is applied as in the above pic - I think it can go a mm or so further but have not seen the actual rack yet so unsure how far it can actually move.
http://mini-zracer.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=145&pictureid=1320

If you can post a full lock pic of the underside at a flat on perspective I can measure your lock with a protractor on my screen, how much do you have and does it change between your models?

more pics updated from the dual resistor mod in the gallery. Minirc shop never even got back to me at all and atomic mods didn't give a hoot either but could have sold me a 90 dollar board to fix...

Had a couple sets of batteries and it's a totally different beast, it's actually useable and it the first time I have smiled while using it. Now it's fun again, thanks Reaper and Bodom

Bodom
2012.03.15, 02:25 PM
OK, I meant that the steering rack stops before the knuckle hits that plastic part, but I was wrong...
Now when I examined my car..


http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq194/Bodom_photos/Mini-Z/MA-010/DSC_4815.jpg
http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq194/Bodom_photos/Mini-Z/MA-010/DSC_4816.jpg

As you can see the steering rod also stops at the curved part in the lower arm of the suspension. At the same time the knuckle hits the plastic part you are worried about.

Here is the referent pic to compare steering angle :)
http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq194/Bodom_photos/Mini-Z/MA-010/DSC_4818.jpg

At this setup my car turns just enough for me.
What I originally meant for the servo saver horn was that it physically cannot throw the steering rod more than that. I may be wrong on that though :)
The servo saver horn is the thing that goes in the steering rod and moves it.
I've got no other MA-010 cars.

P.S. You've done very nice close-up shots of your car :)

Digitalis West
2012.03.15, 05:00 PM
You need to be careful about shaving these steering stops. I have a car with the PN Double A arm which allows more steering lock than this. If I have the wheel turned to full lock and snag a tire on an inside wall, the servo horn sometimes pops out of the steering tie rod, locking the steering with the wheels fully turned. I think that is why this stop is there.

miniz
2012.03.15, 08:39 PM
Thank you Digital West, I took it apart to have a gander in there and yeah you nailed it. At first I thought it was just to stop it catching on the diff where the dogbones fit. It could go a wee bit more but getting it back in if it pops out looks like it would mean really stressing the horn and servo or taking it apart right? Or does it just slip back in and off you go racing?

Earlier on in this thread a couple people mentioned a little toe in would probably help and you confirmed it did. I was under the understanding that toe in would do the opposite of helping you turn.
http://www.ozebiz.com.au/racetech/theory/align.html
What I miss?