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View Full Version : March 24, Track Wash Party and Testing


arch2b
2012.03.17, 10:13 AM
Rene will be hosting. please let me know if anyone can assist in transporting the track to and from HW.

we will be washing the track, letting it dry and testing traction again.

please PM rene for address, not a good idea to post that online.

arch2b
2012.03.21, 08:02 AM
forecast calls for rain...:( if it still looks like rain by Friday, is anyone available next Saturday?

herman
2012.03.21, 09:09 PM
pls post the results/findings after the wash.... i'm pretty sure that others are looking forward to knowing if there will be any difference...

what type of soap/detergent/degreaser do you plan on using?

LeProf
2012.03.22, 07:49 AM
If it rains, i could still go to hobby works and pick up the two wide L on friday night, clean them outside saturday and let them dry in the garage. The drying part could take a while, but i'm sure it would be dry sometimes sunday, so that i could check if any imrpovement.

arch2b
2012.03.22, 08:43 AM
if your ok with that, it's ok with me. i can pick up the rest of the track saturday and bring it over and help clean.

soyverde
2012.03.23, 08:16 PM
I won't have access to an SUV for transport tomorrow, but if you guys need a hand with washing I'm happy to help. Just text/call/PM if that's the case. I can fit some track in my car, but it may not be enough to be worth the trip to HW.

arch2b
2012.03.23, 10:26 PM
Sent you Rene's info and plans for tomorrow.

vash
2012.03.25, 10:37 AM
How did it go? Sorry couldn't make it

LeProf
2012.03.25, 11:51 AM
I had problems yesterday with the lap counter and couldn't make it work. This morning, i realized that i need to connect a decoder to the system before connecting to the laptop ( Ian, stop laughing...). Did a few laps very early this morning and collected lots of cottony type dust (it is not my mop...). Vacuumed carefully the track and it appeared that i collected only "RCP" dust after. i did two 8 minutes sessions. The second seesion went quite well and the track seemed normal. Was able to do 92 laps with a best of 4.45 and many laps in the 4.5 and 4.6. This is with the same tires i had when i practiced on february 25 th and ran 98-98-99-97 laps with best times of 4.29-4.23-4.33-4.34 with many laps in the 4.3-4.4. This is also before my morning coffee... there is hope...

So, I am a bit slower than what i was, but i don't like how my car is handling. i have too much understeer and would like regrease the front and tripod. I am sure it must be very dusty as a result of the HFAY. After a third 8 minute, i am starting to collect some cottony dust again and will vacuum again. It is possible that the track is not as grippy as a black RCP, but let me work a bit on my car, try front tires with more sidewalls before making any statement (test was with well worn K30 Front and half worn K20 rear). It is clearly not the same track we had for the HFAY and it is nothing like driving in ice. Don't hold your breath for the next post: now have to do homework with the kids...


Rene

LeProf
2012.03.25, 05:31 PM
so, got some time to get back to testing...
Played with the tires, and each time I do that, I go soft on the front and keep spinning everywhere. Got me worried that the track was back to its original state. So, new (but trued down somewhat) PN20, either on 20 or 19mm have way to much grip. put wear-down PN8 and K20R rear; car was driving well and managed 97 laps with a best of 4.27. For comparison purpose, went back to very thin K30 (had to raise by body, which was dragging in corners) and half gone K20 rear. Did 95 laps with a best of 4.34. The driver is to blame for less laps...

Track is new, so very very dusty; with some of that "cottony" like dust that grab the pinion. I don't have much experience, so cannot say whether the track grips as much as a black RCP, but I could certainly do a few more laps if I stop hitting the rails... also, my car seems to go slightly down on power after 4-5 minutes (no excuse, since my fastest laps are near the end...)

Rene.

LeProf
2012.03.31, 04:41 PM
one last post before I become redundant...

So, briefly set up the track today -- fixed my car over the week (changed all power-related wire, new PN70T, rebuild diff). After another vacuum and quick warm-up, did 95 laps with a best of 4.40. Felt I did not have enough front grip (K30 front/K20 rear). Went back to new PN20 and some Atomic 8 Radial I had in my box for about two years. A revelation and my first century: 100 laps with best of 4.06. Tons of steering, grip everywhere. Immediately after, I tried PN 6 radial (on +3 rims, did not look good on a 430GT). Car handled great and managed 101 with best of 4.19 (main difference with the atomic is that you could already see the wear on the PNs). Then tried K20 radial, a disaster, balance was gone and car spinning everywhere. Went back to Atomic 8R-- 103 laps with a best of 4.11.

cottony stuff is largely gone --- so may be it was the mop, nothing that the vacuum cannot cure. Track remains very dusty, as expected from a new RCP.

Make sure to bring different types of rear tires for next HFAY...
Rene

arch2b
2012.03.31, 05:01 PM
good news and thanks for the follow up testing and sharing.

so what tires do you feel were adequate? i want to purchase a batch for testing myself and also so we can make recommendations to the store for purchasing. n in quick search, pn and atomic offer a LARGE variety of tires... we were spoiled i guess with only needing kyosho 20/30 with either slick of radial options. i have no idea where to start with all the atomic and pn options.

LeProf
2012.03.31, 08:26 PM
From what I tested, it looks like you need a relatively new front tire (I am not sure if there is a lot of difference between PN20 or K30) to get enough steering and very grippy rear tires. I tested my son's MR03, which is set up very much like mine, and the rear (with K20) could not handle front K30 that were about half gone ---tons of oversteer.
To go fast, you need new front K30 or PN20 (slick) to give you enough steering --I did not try PN15 (RSF15), as the car did well with PN20 (RSF20); for the rear PN6 Radial (RRR-06) worked great and had so much more grip than the K20 or K20R --there was no comparison. It may be that the PN7 Radial (RRR-07) or the PN6 Slick (RSR-06) work well --I just don't have them so can't say. I also tested Atomic RCP Radial (AR-244-W08) I had in my box since the ALS Charity race two years ago. They worked really great (my understanding is that they are the only RCP-specific rear tires Atomic has), but I read somewhere in the forum that they have been inconsistent recently; still, worth trying since they appear to don't wear out as fast as the PNs.

Tack-wise, with the proper setup and tires, I went faster than I ever did; but you need the proper rear grip. You can still run K20 rear if you run them together with paper-thin K30 in front, the car would be balanced but, based on my experience, not as fast as the way I had it set up this afternoon.
rene.

arch2b
2012.03.31, 09:33 PM
hm, i'll try to order some of those. i do have and will try kyo20 fronts. wonder if kyo10 rear would work? cost twice as much as atomic and pn though.

arch2b
2012.04.01, 10:18 AM
has anyone tried GPM recently? they used to be the best thing out 6+ years ago.

TheRinger
2012.04.01, 03:26 PM
has anyone tried GPM recently? they used to be the best thing out 6+ years ago.

They stop selling GPM tires years ago. Go with PN tires, they are the same thing.

LeProf
2012.04.01, 05:39 PM
So, brought the track back to Hobby Works. Vacuumed one last time prior to storing. Also vacuumed twice the third Wide-L which is still in the box. Keep in mind that we did not clean the Large Radius Turn Kit --- Someone should eventually pick the box and clean/vacuum all tiles.
For the next meet, if I show up, I will bring my vacuum. The one at Hobby Works has very hard brush and I think it might damage the track.
Rene.

TheRinger
2012.04.02, 11:31 PM
Well I ordered about 40 dollars worth of tires to try out for the next HFAY race. I got PN 15 slick fronts, 6 slick rears and I'd figured I would throw away about 20 bucks and see how the kyosho 10 radials work.:( I've used PN 15 and 6 slicks before and they work good but I guess I'll find out how they work on the new track. Rene's data has me curious especially about the atomic 8 RCP radials. I have a couple sets of those from the ALS race as well. Kinda sucks since I have around 50 to 100 dollars in kyosho 20's and 30's in my pit box but if they don't work on the new track then O well.

arch2b
2012.04.03, 06:50 AM
I bought about $30 in tires last night.

I've got bundles of Kyosho 20/30 as well. I'm hoping that the track breaks in once again giving us the simplicity of tire choice. the improvement after washing gives me hope :) had it not improved, i would be having a different conversation with Kittritch :eek:

TheRinger
2012.04.03, 12:40 PM
It just sucks. I've been using kyosho tires for years and used them at different tracks and never had a problem until now. After buying all different types and brands of tires years ago, kyosho were the best. The only other tires other then kyosho that were good is GPM but they quit making them years ago. The PN 15 and 6 slicks are the only tires that I like from there line up. They worked well but even with that much degree in compound the fronts wore out way faster then the rears. PN tires are just relabeled GPM tires and both had consistent problems with there tire compounds. That's pretty much why I quit using their tires. But I guess I'll find out soon enough. The last time I got PN tires they were fine but we'll see.

arch2b
2012.04.03, 12:57 PM
having been spoiled in only needing kyo20/30, the sheer qnty of other shores, patterns combinations alone is daunting and not something i want to go through either. i'm keeping my kyo tires and will try them first before trying some of the others. i bought pn6 rear, pn 15/20 front. i had the kyo10's in my cart but only had enough to add the buggy front knuckles i need since running into a wall.

lets just hope the tire changes are temporary as the track gets broken in again and cleaned more. the good news is, it has traction!

imxlr8ed
2012.04.04, 12:20 AM
Wow, sounds like the track was getting real greasy... I wonder why? I've had my RCP for too long and it's still good. I do "Zamboni" it constantly with the dirt devil brushed upright (yes, the same $5 dollar vacuum from years ago, held together by duct tape mostly now) so I guess that helps. I'm wondering if maybe there is some kind of floor wax they may be using in the mall and it's getting on your track via footsteps? Or maybe someone is in love with Simple Green to clean their tires, I know that stuff destroyed the traction on my old carpet track.

Anyhow... hope it works out for you guys!

arch2b
2012.04.04, 06:48 AM
Nope, new track right out of the box. Something about the special edition kits....

herman
2012.10.24, 03:42 AM
sorry to bring this up....

so this problem is happening to the new version special edition rcp tracks? are they the gray rcp tile? i figure maybe they have different characteristics than the original rcp tile...

wondering how did you wash the tiles exactly? did it still seem greasy after washing?

you probably know this but i was wondering if anybody tried out the pn rcp tire... philip mentioned that this tire is made specifically for rcp tracks and is made out of rubber... the first batches of tires that were made had some amount of silicone in them... which after time will coat the track and will make the track greasy / slippery...

i remember seeing a video of the atomic race in h.k. they used gray tiles similar to the rcp design... it looked like the cars were a bit struggling with grip and were sliding around a bit...

also if the track is already coated with silicone, or some other slippery stuff, how does one clean it off? is there a way to get silicone off rcp?

how is your track now?

thanks in advance for any reply.... :D

arch2b
2012.10.24, 07:47 AM
so this problem is happening to the new version special edition rcp tracks? are they the gray rcp tile? i figure maybe they have different characteristics than the original rcp tile...
as far as i can tell, it is limited to the grey tracks. i have a new in the box black track but no place to open it up for testing to make sure it's not more widespread than that.

wondering how did you wash the tiles exactly? did it still seem greasy after washing?
we used a very mild liquid cleaner diluted in plastic buckets with water and literally mopped the track with floor mops. it's not greasy. it's the powdery residue that was left on the tiles and to some extent the tiles themselves. it's not greasy though but more like talcum powder.

i remember seeing a video of the atomic race in h.k. they used gray tiles similar to the rcp design... it looked like the cars were a bit struggling with grip and were sliding around a bit...
atomic has their own grey tiles which may or may not be carpet. it's not the same thing.

also if the track is already coated with silicone, or some other slippery stuff, how does one clean it off? is there a way to get silicone off rcp?
a good scrubbing took the track from unusable to manageable. the residue that was washed off was clearly visible in the water running off the track and street. it glimmered like an oil sheen almost but it's more powder like than anything else.

how is your track now?
Remnant Race Track has been running on the track several times a week for a couple months now and it drives nicely. it's still not the same as the black tiles but it's what one would expect from RCP now as the standard 30/20 tires seem to work decently. i have not used the track in low temperatures though as it's currently installed in an unconditioned garage and well, heat and humidity also play a large part in a tracks performance. this winter season will be very interesting.

you probably know this but i was wondering if anybody tried out the pn rcp tire... philip mentioned that this tire is made specifically for rcp tracks and is made out of rubber... the first batches of tires that were made had some amount of silicone in them... which after time will coat the track and will make the track greasy / slippery...
short answer, no. i had no wish to invest more monies into batches of tires in the hops of finding the magic happy spot. we've used kyo 20/30 for years and with success previously and no one was eager to waste money on a tire hunt. some did buy various pn/atomic/kyosho tires and some found ones that worked but nothing consistent like kyosho 20/30. i have zero interest in switching to another brand with consistency concerns. i've wasted plenty of money in the past going through that and no wish to repeat that now. nothing against atomic/pn but i know what i'm getting when i buy kyo 20/30.

i'll say this again as it bear repeating, i love the color. the track looks great. had this been a smooth transition from day one i would be singing it's praises all day long to all but it was less than smooth and at times very aggravating. i still wonder if we can power wash it without damaging the surface? it's a track that must be thoroughly cleaned and broken in for good results. i still run on it at least twice a month so i continue to get experience on it. in fact, we are holding our 90mm hatchback race on this very track so it will get those who did the initial testing a chance to get back on it and see how far it's come since then.

i'm actually very tempted to purchase more wide turn kits. also need some blank tiles to fill out the layout it's currently in. i'm confident that over time this track will serve well and for many years. one must look past the initial shock, disgust, aggravation though which admittedly will be much harder as one does not expect to plunk down significant amount of money only to have to go through what we did to get a usable product.

herman
2012.10.24, 12:10 PM
thanks for the update :D

TheRinger
2012.10.24, 01:44 PM
I've tried PN tires on this track and they were the worst. Kyosho radial 10 degree rears and 30 degree fronts worked the best on that track.

arch2b
2012.10.24, 01:57 PM
i think you'll find it has improved but still not the same as our house track. i still run 30/20 and do fine. there is a long back straight though so you build up some speed before the big turn at the end.