PDA

View Full Version : Error Messages


arch2b
2012.08.11, 06:14 PM
ok, today we had instances where laps were missed for whatever reason throughout the entire day. i have no idea what they mean.

all racers were registered. all had unique frequencies, although i don't understand why this is required if it's set to zero indicating it's 2.4ghz. i always get prompted to provide a frequency before a race will start, even is zero is chosen.

none of the drivers crossed the timing system before the min. lap time had expired. i had this set to 3.8 and today's fastest was 4.5. there were no conflicts in the qualifier or mains setup. i checked with the validate tool. i'm not even sure these messages correspond to missed laps? the mix/match of english and spanish made it a bit confusing to troubleshoot.

any ideas here? i had been very happy that zround controlled everything from setup configuration, qualifying to mains only to be back to where we were with core with results that have to be scrutinized for errors and constantly worry about accuracy.:(

mini-z
2012.08.11, 09:00 PM
Are you experiencing any actual errors in the results, e.g. dropped laps etc.? If not, then honestly those "errors" can usually be ignored; depending on the layout/bridge you might be picking up stray signals from cars passing on an adjacent part of the track, or even e.g. random IR interference etc. You certainly don't need an error-free session to get accurate results. :) FYI I just use 9xx to get around the frequency assignments, where xx is the transponder, e.g. 901, 914, 923 etc. (in order to ensure uniqueness) :)

arch2b
2012.08.11, 10:07 PM
yes, there are missed laps. i personally watched the race manager screen during the a mains and witnessed at least 4 laps missed by one driver in one event. i'm accustomed to the odd delay at times between detection and the audible tone. it's not unusual for a car to get 1/4 way around the track again before the audible tone. for these times however i watched the monitor and the finish line in my peripheral vision and the car made it all the way around twice before the audible tone with a lap time twice this drivers average and it was a clean lap. i'm certain this happens much more frequently than i'd like as we often see results that do not match what were seeing happen on the track. hell, i've had lead changes called out while no cars are around the bridge. even had one driver do a clean lap and awarded the TQ time which was the lap min. which i know to be impossible as it was set well under the fastest lap for the day.

which also leads me to this, i split the laps where i caught them. in doing this however, the lap counts did not change. i had to right click and edit the result from the championship manager to change the lap count. why would splitting the laps not change the corresponding lap count?

i did much testing to determine the right height of the sensors so that they do not pickup any signals from adjacent lanes. i don't believe there is any problem of errant signals.

yes, for the frequency, i simply assigned each driver a number between 1-24 since there are only 24 transponders. why is this even needed though when per the instructions, zero should be provided to indicate 2.4ghz eliminating the frequency conflicts.

i'm not convinced the red messages are tied to the missed laps but have to wonder what they mean? in one event i had loaded a heat and got a message saying a driver did not exist. how is this possible given the drivers are added in the championship manager and sorted there? all i want is for a system to work without me having to constantly watch the screen hoping it's accurate. it sucks feeling like you've traded one headache for another at considerable cost.

arch2b
2012.08.11, 10:13 PM
on the up side, i'm happy with setup and function of the championship manager. i setup HFAY s14 and continue to add new events to the championship and it seems to work very well between the manager screens. it's nice to set it up and not have to worry about sorting, etc. and focus on racing (until see dropped laps).

i was able to move drivers around in heats per instructions given in my other thread. i was not able to move drivers around in mains however. that field was grey'ed out.

mini-z
2012.08.12, 11:46 AM
I wish I could be of further assistance, but honestly we've just not experienced many problems with ZRound; I will have to defer to Jesus on this I'm afraid. :) Btw, RE our 9xx format: we still have some 27MHz guys so have to keep the 1-6/12 open for legitimate frequency conflict resolution. :)

arch2b
2012.08.12, 12:09 PM
i was hoping that would be the case for us as well. dropping laps is a big problem for us as we race for HFAY.

NoBrainer
2012.08.12, 12:51 PM
that picture shows laps being ignored due to very little time used around the track... are you sure tx=12 did not crash under the bridge?


With Robitronic and Lap-Z I have not found these issues unless crash under the bridge, direct sunlight or very poor battery in car. But I think jesus should look into it.

arch2b
2012.08.12, 03:41 PM
i would expect to see these occur if someone crosses the sensor under the set time limit. i do not expect to see these occur otherwise. we rarely see crashes at the bridge and don't recall that being the case at all in these circumstances.

arch2b
2012.08.12, 04:21 PM
it has been suggested this can be caused by the wiring harness. i'll make sure next time that everyone has the transponder plugged in cleanly 100% and pick up another 10 pack of the harnesses just in case one is found to be bad.

zround
2012.08.13, 05:36 PM
Hi there, here my comments ...

1) GiroZ detection "delay"
It is due to the decoder algorithm. I agree it is a bit annoying to hear the "beep" with huge delay but as far as I know the lap time is accurate as it is used the time where the detection frame was received and not the time where the detection was fired (zround is informed about the detection event and when the lap was completed by the giroz driver).

I have not seen this behavior in other lapcounters and I cannot do anything to improve the way it works :(

2) Frecuency conflicts using 2.4
The "2.4GHz = 0" rule is used only in ZRound Manager. I ignore frequency conflics in ZRound as they are controlled on ZRound Manager.The workaround is to check the "ignore frequency conflicts" option in the ZRound Configuration Options Page ...
http://www.zround.com/image/minizracer/ignoreFreq.PNG

In the next ZRound release I will try to include the "0=ignore" rule too.

3) Error messages
ZRound displays every detection message received and it shows the "error" line when the lap time is under the minimun threshold. GiroZ can throw several detection messages while the car is under the bridge, even if the car is not stopped under it. I see 36ms, 49ms lap times. It doesn't mean a transponder failure, just it has been detected for a while after the first detection was completed.

Kyosho IC Tag lapcounter flood the screen with a huge amount of detection events while LapZ or Robitronic use to send a single message.

In the options page (see image above) there is a "Noisy lap control" option you can check to force ZRound to ignore any lap under 1sec. It should be used with Kyosho IC Tag lapcounter and can be also used with GiroZ to prevent these "error messages"

4) Moving racers across mains
Choose the main where is the racer you want to move from. I will move one people from main B (6 racers) to main A (5 racers)
http://www.zround.com/image/minizracer/MoveMain1.PNG

In the example I choose the second guy "Andres". With the context menu (right click) use the "Move to final" submenu and choose the destination main. It will be shown all mains but the source one.
I pass him to "main A" in the example

http://www.zround.com/image/minizracer/MoveMain2.PNG

You can see now the main A with 6 racers, and a warning about the transponder conflict.

http://www.zround.com/image/minizracer/MoveMain3.PNG

5) Missed laps
If missed laps are allways of the same car, it could be due a wrong installation or a damaged transponder. I have seen transponder with broken (or near broken) wires or placed on wrong sites (led hidden by a cable or the body).

If there are serveral cars missing laps, it could be due a wrong installation of the bridge, broken sensor, cabling, etc.

I dump to ZRound log the detection pulse length (how many time the signal has been catched causing a positive detection) informed by the GiroZ driver as follows:

Detector: car DETECTED (tx=XX; detection=YYYY ms; time=ZZZZ ms)

In my club detection pulses are from 80ms to 120ms but can be wider on slow passes. Lower values doesn't mean a failure but it could confirm some kind of trouble on cars with missed laps.

Regards,

Jesus.

arch2b
2012.08.13, 05:56 PM
as always, thank you for the responses.

1. the delay doesn't really bother me. it just throws some of the driver off as were used to tracking our crossing the sensor with the beeping to make sure our laps are counting thanks to years with core. some think they are not counting when they get 1/4 around the track before the beep sounds and i have to explain they are counting, it's just the delay. more of an annoyance really due to our past experience with core.

2. i will enable the ignore frequency collisions as we are all 2.4ghz anyway.

3. i will enable the noisy lap control. we know we are in a crowded frequency zone as it caused false readings with other systems. the downside to being located in a commercial mall with commercial traffic. we have a giro-z system.

4. i don't recall seeing the option to move to final win the championship manager but doesn't mean it wasn't there and i just missed it.

5. others mentioned possible faulty wires, i will be purchasing additional harnesses to make sure they are good.

6. can you please pm or email me regarding replacement parts for the system. it appears they are not stocked domestically. how does one go about fault testing the sensors/wiring harness components? our system is brand new but i know another local club that has a dated system and looking for replacement parts.

7. can you please explain how editing results works? i was not able to split laps and adjust the lap counts automatically. i had to manually edit both individually which potentially leads to additional human errors.

zround
2012.08.13, 09:15 PM
6. can you please pm or email me regarding replacement parts for the system. it appears they are not stocked domestically. how does one go about fault testing the sensors/wiring harness components? our system is brand new but i know another local club that has a dated system and looking for replacement parts.

The wire connecting the bridge and the usb black box is a standard LAN cable.

Sensors, sensor wires and connection base are available from vendors (I'll write you a PM)

Sensor wires are hard to damage as they use to be installed into the bridge and they are not usually plugged/unplugged. A possible failure is a "false" connection (connector not plugged right).

I have not got details about repairing sensors nor measurement you could do (current, voltage, etc.) to check them. Sensors and base can be affected by electrostatic hazard or connector can be damaged when wires are plugged/unplugged.

If you suspect a sensor doesn't work, check if it is connected ok and the wires/connectors looks like healthy. If all seems right, unplug the others (or cover them to avoid they can receive light from the transponder) and check, using Zround, if a transponder can be detected. If you find a sensor that doesn't work, try a working sensor in its position as the failure could be also because of the connection base or the wire.

I also have seen problems with the decoder unit but the only way to check it is to use a new one. The same bridge (sensors, structure, wires, etc.) miss a lot of lap with a decoder (it was new) and with my old testing decoder unit all worked flawlessly.



7. can you please explain how editing results works? i was not able to split laps and adjust the lap counts automatically. i had to manually edit both individually which potentially leads to additional human errors.

You can edit results in two ways:

a) Using ZRound.
a.1- You can add/substract laps. Use the context menu over the racer you want to modify and click on "increment lap" or "decrement lap" as needed. The total laps will be modified and the increment/decrement will be shown into brackets.

a.2- You can "split" / "join" laps on the lap times view (bottom right panel shown below). Very bad laps (colored in red) are candidates for splitting if you suffer missed laps. You can change the values used to class the laps in order to facilitate the possible errors. I like these:

- Very good: 1sec or less under the mean time
- Good: 1sec around the mean lap time (more or less)
- Bad: 5sec over the mean lap time
- Very Bad: Twice the mean lap time (or more)

Of course, it depends on your track length / average time

http://www.zround.com/image/minizracer/SplitLaps1.PNG

To split a lap, you must locate the time to split and use the option "split". The time will be divided by two and a new lap will be added. The total lap count will be also one more. If you split a lap by mistake, you can undone it by joining the laps using the option in the context menu.

http://www.zround.com/image/minizracer/SplitLaps2.PNG

If total lap count is not changed after splitting a lap please let me know. It should be done automatically.

http://www.zround.com/image/minizracer/SplitLaps3.PNG

Important: Once you complete the changes, please use the save button (disk icon on top) to register them.


b) Using ZRound Manager

You can edit the results with ZRound Manager to change any data you need. In ZRound Manager you cannot change individual laps (splitting, joining) but can enter the values you want for every field (lap count, total time, mean time, etc.)

Locate the result you want to edit and double click the affected record or use the context menu as shown below.
http://www.zround.com/image/minizracer/EditResult1.PNG

An editing window will be shown to change the data you want (i.e. correct a missed lap or a best lap time, apply a penalty by adding time, etc.)
http://www.zround.com/image/minizracer/EditResult2.PNG


I hope it helps. Regards,

Jesus.

arch2b
2012.08.14, 07:54 AM
very helpful!

thank you for touching on the hardware, i know your not responsible for hardware issues with giro-z but i really do appreciate the responses. i will cut/past my questions into the giro-z forum which i should have posted them.

i'd like to create an FAQ here out of the questions and responses. i actually refer back to these frequently and you have been most helpful.

zround
2012.08.14, 11:14 AM
very helpful!

thank you for touching on the hardware, i know your not responsible for hardware issues with giro-z but i really do appreciate the responses. i will cut/past my questions into the giro-z forum which i should have posted them.

i'd like to create an FAQ here out of the questions and responses. i actually refer back to these frequently and you have been most helpful.
All right, it is a really good idea. I will contribute with new tips in the FAQ as other people will do based in their experiences and problems solved.

Thank you. Best regards,

Jesus.

arch2b
2012.09.14, 08:19 AM
ok, made some changes this past weekend. i enabled the noisy lap option. i checked connector cables but have not replaced them yet as i have not ordered the bunch.

i wish i could say this fixed everything but i can't. we verified a main drivers were experiencing missed laps as they run very clean and fast and still each driver ended up with a few lap times that were 3-4 times their average lap.

so to recap
i've done all that has been recommended with regard to software configuration. i've checked connectors to ensure no wires were pulled, broken or loose.
i've already adjusted the bridge height to ensure no ghost laps are being counted in adjacent lanes.
i've upgraded to a newer model computer with better specs than previous computer, same operating system.

any other ideas on the software end?

zround
2012.09.14, 11:01 AM
ok, made some changes this past weekend. i enabled the noisy lap option. i checked connector cables but have not replaced them yet as i have not ordered the bunch.

i wish i could say this fixed everything but i can't. we verified a main drivers were experiencing missed laps as they run very clean and fast and still each driver ended up with a few lap times that were 3-4 times their average lap.

so to recap
i've done all that has been recommended with regard to software configuration. i've checked connectors to ensure no wires were pulled, broken or loose.
i've already adjusted the bridge height to ensure no ghost laps are being counted in adjacent lanes.
i've upgraded to a newer model computer with better specs than previous computer, same operating system.

any other ideas on the software end?

The "noisy lap" option intends to avoid several detection messages within a second. It does not affect to the lapcounter, ZRound simply ignores the lap deteccion messages if they arrive within a second.

When the lapcounter sends a detection message it is dumped to the log and then it is processed. If you have a high "min. lap time" it is possible quick racers miss laps, however the laps would be dumped on the log with errors (ignored laps due min lap time). I can check your race logs to confirm there aren't missed laps due configuration. Please send me some logs files by email if you want me to review them.

I understand you have checked all these stuffs and the problem is GiroZ doesn't send detection messages because the lapcounter misses laps. The software can't help in this case :( :(

Regards.

arch2b
2012.09.14, 02:17 PM
thanks, feared it was a hardware issue:(